Has Djokovic become a clearer GOAT in tennis than Messi and Jordan in their sports?
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RS
Bionic Poster
That must have really annoyed people.
Yh, there is no such thing as GOAT in tennis. I need to see Alexander Karelin level of dominance by any tennis player to even consider them a contender of being GOAT. Only Nadal has shown such a level on clay where the gap between him and others are that significant.
Djokovic in no surface or tournament has shown such a gap. I mean, relying on mental strength to barely beat your rivals and relying on being clutch on tie breaks or key moments to win most of your matches is not the definition of a GOAT to me. Someone has to be so good that they don't even have to rely on such close clutch moments of mental strength to separate them.
Many Barcelona fans must have wondered what was going on, for a UEFA Cup semi-final to be delayed (only by 15 minutes but still) due to an episode of a UK soap.
The viewing figures for soaps look to be declining at such a rapid rate, that it's safe to say that there would be no chance of that happening nowadays. It's always funny when soap fans moan about their shows being re-scheduled to make way for football, Wimbledon etc.
RS
Bionic Poster
If you fell into the soap fan and football fan category you were lucky.
Many Barcelona fans must have wondered what was going on, for a UEFA Cup semi-final to be delayed (only by 15 minutes but still) due to an episode of a UK soap.
The viewing figures for soaps look to be declining at such a rapid rate, that it's safe to say that there would be no chance of that happening nowadays. It's always funny when soap fans moan about their shows being re-scheduled to make way for football, Wimbledon etc.
Individual sports are uncomparable to team sports imo. Djokovic has all the records and will go down as the greatest player in history. He never dominated Nadal though, and peak for peak, i think Federer was a better grass court player and Nadal was obviously a better clay courter.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Dirty Den and Angie were a bit before my time. Deidre being put behind bars is the other big storyline I can remember. The newspaper with their free Deidre covers. Ah, the good ol days. Not that I was watching. Phil would have to be the biggest soap storyline that I watched. Felt the reveal was a bit underwhelming. Can remember some predictions with others that watched.
''He's going to call at Steve's door and they are going to fight, get in! I wanted it to be Steve.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
Someone once said FEDERER TRANSCENDED TENNIS
and another added his own twist
NOVAK TRANSCENDED FEDERER.
Messi is great player, but lost quite big with Barcelona and PSG in Champions League, including a 2-8 against Bayern, and a 0-4 to Liverpool. Did nothing to turn around the match. Was helpless with his US team in the last World Team Cup. With Argentina he has a strong, physical, hard playing team on his side, which does everything for him and letting him score goals, instead of going for goals themselves.. And he has always the refs on his side.
GuyForget
Professional
he
he won 4 CLs DH. +no one cares/or have even heard of the World Team cup
btsjungkook
Professional
To me he has transcended goat.
Lol worst attempt at analysis I've ever seen.
junkieballer
Legend
Yes, in tennis numbers are easy.
Most Slams + most weeks at #1 + most year end #1 = GOAT
Football and basket are team sports, the team helps the player, and there are many different roles.
Most Slams + most weeks at #1 + most year end #1 = GOAT
Football and basket are team sports, the team helps the player, and there are many different roles.
junkieballer
Legend
1 point for every Slam
1 point for every year end #1
0.02 point for every week at #1
Djokovic 24 + 8 + 8.56 = 40.56
Federer 20 + 5 + 6.20 = 31.20
Nadal 22 + 5 + 4.18 = 31.18
Sampras 14 + 6 + 5.72 = 25.72
Borg 11 + 2 + 2.18 = 15.18
How are they peers? Who are A&S?
Carlos & Jannik
Messi & Jordan have no peers! Jordan, he jumped higher and hang for a longer time than anyone! But Messi, he's often the shortest man in the pitch!
Racquet_smash
Hall of Fame
Messi's the goat if you love media propaganda
RS
Bionic Poster
Top 10 NBA players ever? Your list ofc.
GoatNo1
Legend
raz and sinner i guess.
yes, it is bigger gap between nole and fedal than between yhem and sinner.
Kralingen
Bionic Poster
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Yes, this was the peakiest of peaks.SwissMaestro81
Professional
Tennis and baseball are irrelevant compared to football.
Football is by far the most important sport on the planet.
NonP
Legend
Kids, no bball maven who knows their stuff takes MJ vs. LBJ or whoever seriously. Do any random poll of actual pros and Mike is still miles ahead, at least among the non-bigs. (I know with today's "efficiency" madness it's become fashionable to rank smalls and bigs together, but I still prefer to separate the two.) And even that's mostly a younger crowd who don't know a lick about old-timers like Oscar, Nate and Jerry.
As for Djoker, I'll just add we won't be able to arrive at a fair assessment of his career at least till several years after his retirement. Take whatever takes on his GOAThood (well, except mine) with almost as salt as their bball counterparts. And yes, the same goes for Messi too!
2 more things:
As for Djoker, I'll just add we won't be able to arrive at a fair assessment of his career at least till several years after his retirement. Take whatever takes on his GOAThood (well, except mine) with almost as salt as their bball counterparts. And yes, the same goes for Messi too!
2 more things:
Pretty sure most boxing heads would go with Sugar Ray Robinson.
If we're talking sheer versatility in the top echelon Babe Didrikson has Thorpe beat: the world's best in T&F and golf. Jim was never quite up there outside T&F.
You're going off championships and LeBron is number 1? There are 6 guys on your list alone who have more than him and he was the one who played longer than anyone by far, hopping from team to team in order to have a better chance to win. It doesn't make sense.
ProStaffFTW
New User
I can’t call Novak clear goat for two main facts
No one on planet earth dead or alive has been more dominant than Rafa on clay. He’s the best single surface player, period. Djokovic has not reached this pinnacle on his best surface. Yes he is more balanced than Rafa and fed.
Rafa leads 11-7 in slams h2h and 5-4 in GS finals. Yes there is a clay skew but we can only judge what happened. If you don’t beat your biggest rival h2h how can you be the clear goat?
Less compelling arguments to consider. Rafa peaked earlier when prime fed was scorched earthing everyone
Rafa missed 18 slams to health. Novak missed 3. Hard to think Rafa wouldn’t have at least two more had he remained as healthy as Joker.
Novaks final two majors came at a weird time. Fed retired and Rafa body broke down/wasn’t in the field. Carlos and Jannik had not peaked yet.
If Novak hangs around another year and doesn’t win a slam, that is a knock to his resume. That will be two players (Jannik/carlos) he couldn’t dominate. If he is praised for longevity, we have to be critical of him 2024 and beyond.
I do think Novak is most accomplished and balanced of the big 3, but I can’t say greatest. If you ask players who would they rather face in their prime Novak on hard or Rafa on clay, you know what they would all say
No one on planet earth dead or alive has been more dominant than Rafa on clay. He’s the best single surface player, period. Djokovic has not reached this pinnacle on his best surface. Yes he is more balanced than Rafa and fed.
Rafa leads 11-7 in slams h2h and 5-4 in GS finals. Yes there is a clay skew but we can only judge what happened. If you don’t beat your biggest rival h2h how can you be the clear goat?
Less compelling arguments to consider. Rafa peaked earlier when prime fed was scorched earthing everyone
Rafa missed 18 slams to health. Novak missed 3. Hard to think Rafa wouldn’t have at least two more had he remained as healthy as Joker.
Novaks final two majors came at a weird time. Fed retired and Rafa body broke down/wasn’t in the field. Carlos and Jannik had not peaked yet.
If Novak hangs around another year and doesn’t win a slam, that is a knock to his resume. That will be two players (Jannik/carlos) he couldn’t dominate. If he is praised for longevity, we have to be critical of him 2024 and beyond.
I do think Novak is most accomplished and balanced of the big 3, but I can’t say greatest. If you ask players who would they rather face in their prime Novak on hard or Rafa on clay, you know what they would all say
Kralingen
Bionic Poster
LeBron is the best player ever.
I go off contributing to championship equity in any given season. Basically, who contributed the most value towards winning a title, summed up over years (weighted for peak value). He wins in all respects.
He was also cheated out of multiple titles due to teammate injuries and Steph/KD evil.
LMAO you can't be serious. His peak wasn't as great as MJ's, even LeBron fanatics like Nick Wright admit this. If we're talking about cumulative records, maybe, he's still trailing Jordan when it comes to accolades, even with almost 10 more seasons. Also, his peak numbers aren't as good as Jordan's. Shaq also probably has a higher peak (maybe has a case against even Jordan).
When LeBron was ready to play championship winning basketball, he was almost always playing with stellar teammates, DWade/Bosh, KLove/Kyrie, AD, Luka. Many more chances with elite teammates than Jordan and still 4 rings. Jordan basically had 9 full seasons with Pippen (3 of those with Rodman), and the guy delivered 6 rings, no comparison.
junkieballer
Legend
Carlos and Jannik are nowhere near Djokovic in career achievements.
Messi and Jordan play in a team sport, it is very hard to tell who is the best in a team sports.
For example Totti was amazing but he always played in a crap team. Also Maradona brought 2 Scudetto to Napoli which was a weak team.
RS
Bionic Poster
I was messing. Yes SRR is the pick for most hardcores.
pedro94
Professional
There's hardly any credible argument to put Cristiano as the GOAT of football, even if you just take goalscoring Messi still has a better goal to game ratio, he's ~60 goals behind with ~150 fewer games played. Cristiano is basically a better version of Inzaghi, a world-class poacher. That's pretty much it.
RS
Bionic Poster
That's harsh come on.
RS
Bionic Poster
I agree it's hard to put him with Messi now I think Messi has kinda distanced himself now but C Ronaldo was way more than just a scorer.
CR 7 started as a right winger, and played there for a long time. He became a top scorer only in his last years at Manu and then at Real. But he was never a number 9, Benzema was the centre forward at Real. In his prime, CR 7 ever can from the sides. He is one of he top scorers of all time, like Pele, who was a Nr. 10, Gerd Müller, a real centre forward, and Romario, a centre forward, who could also pass pretty well. Van Basten was also a great striker, a hanging, so we say in Germany, centre forward with great class.
junkieballer
Legend
Karelin? He lost 1 point in 12 years at WorldCup/Olympics.
Usain Bolt? His 100m and 200m could stay untouched for a long, long time.
junkieballer
Legend
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