Head to head masters

[Tomaz Bellucci]

Hi,
I propose this thread cause some players had excellent H2H against almost evey player in his own generation,
example Borg, only tied with Crazy Mac and Ashe, and lost to Newk 3-1, but when Bjorn was not in his prime yet;
Lendl won to Connors, Mc Enroe, Wilander, Becker, but lost close (1 match) to Edberg;
Sampras leads vs Agassi, Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Rafter, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Muster, Rios, Chang, Courier, but lost to Bruguera, Stich and Safin (close, just for one match)
Laver, won H2H to Rosewall, Gonzalez, Emerson, Hoad, I don't know vs. Roche or Fraser (maybe you can help me).
I don't know about Gonzalez, I know he leads Segura, Sedgman, Rosewall. Don't know vs Hoad or Kramer.

Waiting feedback.

 

[urban]

On the old pro tours, the head to head numbers don't always reflect the real worth of a player. The new pro, fresh from the amatuer ranks, got his baptism on a long 100 match series against the more experienced pro champion, who was way more accostumed to indoor play and the format of the pro tour. Often this long match series overshadowed the later results in the head to head of players.For instance, Gonzales lost his first pro tour in 1949/50 by the score of 27 to 96 to Kramer. Although he later had a slight positive record over Kramer in 1951-1954, he never could compensate this big Kramer lead. Same with Rosewall, who lost his first pro tour in 1956 27 to 50 against Gonzales. Later the hth record was much more even. Many of Rosewalls wins over Laver come from the first head to head tours in 1963. Since 1964, Laver had always the edge in head to head matches. From the top of my head: Laver has a 10 (11)-8 lead over Roche (only 8-4 are documented on the ATP side). Interesting, that in 1969, Roche lead Laver 5-4, but Laver won always the big ones. The older Fraser was Laver's nemesis early on, but overall 1959-1962 i give Laver a slight lead. In majors Laver lead Fraser 3-2. Maybe Andrew Tass or Jeffrey Neave have more results here.

 

[garcia_doomer]

Lendl 5-2 vs Chang but 2-6 vs Borg

 

[AndrewTas]

On the old pro tours, the head to head numbers don't always reflect the real worth of a player. The new pro, fresh from the amatuer ranks, got his baptism on a long 100 match series against the more experienced pro champion, who was way more accustomed to indoor play and the format of the pro tour. Often this long match series overshadowed the later results in the head to head of players.For instance, Gonzales lost his first pro tour in 1949/50 by the score of 27 to 96 to Kramer. Although he later had a slight positive record over Kramer in 1951-1954, he never could compensate this big Kramer lead. Same with Rosewall, who lost his first pro tour in 1956 27 to 50 against Gonzales. Later the hth record was much more even. Many of Rosewalls wins over Laver come from the first head to head tours in 1963. Since 1964, Laver had always the edge in head to head matches. From the top of my head: Laver has a 10 (11)-8 lead over Roche (only 8-4 are documented on the ATP side). Interesting, that in 1969, Roche lead Laver 5-4, but Laver won always the big ones. The older Fraser was Laver's nemesis early on, but overall 1959-1962 i give Laver a slight lead. In majors Laver lead Fraser 3-2. Maybe Andrew Tass or Jeffrey Neave have more results here.

Fraser vs Laver

Fraser and Laver met only when both were amateurs and surprisingly Fraser led their head-to-head 9-8 with Fraser dominating their early matches.

This is their match-ups:

1956 South Australian 2R Fraser 63 86 64
1956 Queensland HC F Fraser 64 1210
1957 Queensland Champs QF Fraser 86 64 62
1958 Australian HC QF Laver 62 06 1715 36 97
1958 Tasmanian F Fraser 64 62 26 46 61
1958 Victorian Champs QF Fraser 63 63 63
1960 Australian Champs F Laver 57 36 63 86 86
1960 Wimbledon F Fraser 64 36 97 75
1960 US Champs F Fraser 64 64 97
1961 South Australian SF Fraser 75 57 16 63 64
1962 Tasmanian F Laver 75 06 06 61 62
1962 Palermo F Laver 64 62 46 61
1962 French Champs SF Laver 36 63 62 36 75
1962 Wimbledon SF Laver 108 61 75
1962 Gstaad F Laver 64 64 86
1962 NSW Champs SF Fraser 63 36 68 75
1962 Victorian Champs F Laver 36 97 61 68 60

As for Laver vs. Emerson after the open era began. They met 35 times and Emerson only won 6 of these matches. Laver won their last 22 matches.

1968 HOLLYWOOD PRO SF EMERSON 64 61
1968 MADISON SQR GARDENS CHAMPS SF LAVER 62 62
1968 LOS ANGELES SF LAVER 75 62
1968 PARIS PRO NTL 1R LAVER 46 64 62
1968 MIDLAND PRO SF EMERSON 64 64
1968 SAO PAULO RR RR LAVER 61 108
1968 LA PAZ RR RR LAVER 64 62
1968 LIMA RR RR EMERSON 86 64
1968 Buenos Aires F EMERSON 97 64 64
1968 WEMBLEY PRO 1R EMERSON 63 97
1969 AUSTRALIAN OPEN 3R LAVER 62 64 36 97
1969 MIAMI QF LAVER 57 63 64
1969 TOKYO RR EMERSON 64 65
1969 New York NY F LAVER 62 46 61
1969 US OPEN QF LAVER 46 86 1311 64
1969 BASEL ONS PRO LAVER 63 68 64 36 62
1969 MADRID SF LAVER 10-4
1970 PHILADELPHIA 3R LAVER 46 63 64
1970 LAS VEGAS SF LAVER 63 36 62 36 63
1970 ST LOUIS SF LAVER 46 75 63
1970 BRETTON WOODS F LAVER 63 63
1970 Fort Worth TX F LAVER 63 75
1970 Vancouver CDA F LAVER 62 61 62
1971 Champions Tennis Classic, Philadelphia RR LAVER 62 63 75
1971 Champions Tennis Classic, New Haven RR LAVER 63 57 63 36 63
1971 MIAMI SF LAVER 26 63 75
1971 QUEBEC QF LAVER 36 76 76
1971 FORT WORTH SF LAVER 61 64
1971 SAN FRANSISCO 3R LAVER 67 64 60
1973 Miami FL WCT QF LAVER 64 36 62
1973 Richmond VA WCT F LAVER 64 63
1973 Toronto CDA WCT F LAVER 63 64
1973 Brussels WCT SF LAVER 46 64 61
1973 WCT FINALS DALLAS 1R LAVER 64 62 61
1975 SAO PAULO 2R LAVER 63 62

As for Laver vs. Roche I have Laver leading 12-9 over the years with their first meeting being in the 3rd round of the 1962 Victorian Championships.

 

[bet]

Hi,
I propose this thread cause some players had excellent H2H against almost evey player in his own generation,
example Borg, only tied with Crazy Mac and Ashe, and lost to Newk 3-1, but QUOTE]

Borg really cannot be compared because he quit in his prime. Had he played a full career his h2h records would be quite different.

 

[Q&M son]

Amazing the H2H Laver vs Frase, I never believe somebody had a positive mark against Laver.

 

[urban]

Time plays a major role in the Laver-Fraser head to head, because in the early stages, Laver was still a junior player. When Laver got to his prime, on the amateur level in 1962, he surpassed Fraser, but as a pro, never had a chance to met him afterwards. Federer has similar records vs. people like Rafter or Henman. Besides: Laver had also problems and a close record against Marty Riessen (i believe very close edge to Laver) and Stan Smith. In spring 1973, Smith was the very first player (since Rosewall did in 1963), who beat Laver on a lengthy pro tournament tour on the WCT circuit. Laver got his revenge later in 1973 in the Davis Cup final.

 

[Q&M son]

Agree urban, it just rare at well; like you said after 62 they just don't play again (Laver vs Fraser).

And about Rieissen i'm a little surprise too.

Thanks again.

Lucio.

 

[urban]

Lucio, Marty Riessen was a underrated player in singles, a very solid allround player, who gave the favorites problems, without winning something big (he won once the US pro indoor). Laver found him a bit boring to play and had problems to find his rhythm. But there are always dark horses for top stars, especially on last 16 or last 8 stages in a tournament, see Scanlon for Mac, Gilbert for Becker, Ferreira for Sampras or Nalbandian for Federer (and Nadal).

 

[Zimbo]

Hi,
I propose this thread cause some players had excellent H2H against almost evey player in his own generation,
example Borg, only tied with Crazy Mac and Ashe, and lost to Newk 3-1, but QUOTE]

Borg really cannot be compared because he quit in his prime. Had he played a full career his h2h records would be quite different.

I think this is the first time I would have to agree with you.