CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Here's the link to the thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=207657&highlight=Andrea+Jaeger
How well would a prime steffi graf do in today's game?
- Thread starter halalula1234
- Start date
Here's the link to the thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=207657&highlight=Andrea+Jaeger
Ok I have tried to avoid talking about what could have beens but let me chime in anyways. So we are assuming here that Steffi would keep her slice backhand right? Graf would undoubtedly win titles but not as much. That bh would be a liabilty since there are a lot of players that can consistently hit hard on both sides. And if Steffi would keep running around to the forehand like she did this would provide too much open court and plus it would eventually result to more injuries for Steffi especially that she took the ball a little bit later on it's trajectory. If her game gave her injuries when she played, it would give her more problems in the present. I am pretty sure Steffi would do everything to stay up there with all the aspects of the game, her fitness was optimal anyway. But if that slice bh stay as is in today's game, Graf wouldn't be as formidable. My opinions, of course.
anointedone
Banned
May I remind you we are talking about PRIME Graf and the PRESENT womens game. If this were 1999-2003 your arguments might well have some basis (although a way past her prime Graf did still win the French Open and nearly Wimbledon that year). Still I could see your arguments if we were in a time frame were you had the Williams at their absolute peak and Davenport at her peak. By the way those are the caliber of power hitters that it would take to negate Steffi's game or her slice backhand in anyway, anything less than that simply wont do.
However we are no longer at that time. There are hardly any really big hitters left anymore. And those which are lets examine them:
Serena- way past her prime, grossly out of shape. Would have no chance vs Graf with her current physical condition and commitment level. Serena of 2002-2003 vs prime Graf would be a great matchup. Current Serena vs prime Graf would be a complete mismatch. That she is still winning slams in her current shape/form says all you need to know about current field.
Venus- these days tanks the whole year except Wimbledon, U.S Open, and 1 or 2 other tournaments once in awhile, and even with that still hasnt made U.S Open final since 2003.
Dementieva- powerful groundies but just terrible serve, still hasnt won a slam title yet even among horrible weak womens tennis (although might this weekend).
Kuznetsova- big hitter and talented player, but sadly choker and mental midget extraordinaire her whole career. By the way did you watch last night? Nuff said.
Safina- Pretty big hitter, but hefty women who moves like a walrus around the court, and also a mental midget, and her serve can be like Dementieva many days. Also yet to win a slam among current horrible womens field. At absolute best an very poor womens Davenport in Davenport's prime, but a much weaker version.
Ana Ivanovic- Her only shot is a forehand, and try comparing her forehand to Graf. Doesnt even have much of a backhand herself or any other really big weapons but the forehand. Mediocre mobility, incompetent tactically. Is strong enough to win a slam title and reach 3 slam finals in the last 2 years amongst current womens field, yet is also weak enough to lose at both Wimbledon and the U.S Open last year to women ranked outside the top 100, and to get slaughtered by a nearly retired 33 year old Davenport in their one meeting.
I doubt there is anything presently that would stop a prime Graf from winning the next 20 slams in a row or something like that amongst the present womens field, including having a slice backhand. What would the very few so called "big hitters" of today do with Graf's slice backhand you ask? Easy answer, they would do what they do with every second or third shot in a rally, they would hit the ball out.
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Cheers. Completely bizarre.
Your probably right. Reasonable response....But, I do think if she were in shape and WANTED to play a restricted schedule she would tear up the womens tour. There are a few that could really give her some problems and a really good workout. Very few. She was a great competitor and a smart tennis player. Those two things alone separate her from the NOW crowd of players we have.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
Thanks, again I am a huge fan, and in her prime she would do damage. non-Graf-fan Shriver said once; ''she is a player that only comes around every 50 year''. Better players would only make Steffi stronger. If you look at her 1987 game, she was much more versatile and a more Federer like player than from 1988 onwards. She had all the shots, but importantly played all the shots. Later on she just didn't need that kind of game and she used the slice to work her way into the point and finish with that howitzer.
The power play wouldn't rip off that slice backhand. When I play the powerful youngsters, I play the slice to neutralize their power. Monica Seles could on occassion and more beat her, but ever seen how hard she had to work and how low she had to get for those shots. She coiuld pull it off, because of that great champion's attitude. Davenport could only do it in the Wimbledon final, the first match she really overpowered Steffi. Their previous matches were mostly error prone matches.
A today Steffi would miss the body and the confidence to go with her type of game, because that forehand is not a save shot, when you are shaky and your footwork isn't A anymore, that kind of forehand becomes average. A prime Graf would destroy any generation.
Her game is like an ABBA song: it appears to be simple, but boy is it succesful and difficult to copy and beat.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Thats a bit of a stretch. Throwing out 1990 because of one fluke loss to Garrison, that was the only time Garrison ever beat Graf apart from a win in 1985 when Graf was 16 (she was 12-2 lifetime against her) and for one match a whole year cannot be thrown out,. As for Sabatini, I think GrafRules pretty much covered her, she was the biggest problem for Graf on the tour during her first run of dominance in the 80's until Seles came on the scene. Sabatini from 88-92 was a damn good player who sort of got screwed over by her timeline crossing with who it did, but yet she still managed to give everyone on the tour a hard time, but the fact remained she was just not as good a player as her more dominant contemporaries. That being said she could still beat them on a real good day for her.
Also, you are misinformed, Sabatini and Graf were dead even in 1990 2-2, so how was she "renting anything out" in 1990?. your gonna throw out a whole year based on 3 losses? I don't think that works. However in 1991 Sabatini was a huge pain in Graf's but beating her 4 out of the 5 times they played 4 times in a row, with Graf's one win over her that year coming in Wimbledon 8-6 in the third, so if you want 1990 thrown out by that standard 91 should be to right? I mean Graf did worse against Sabatini that year.
Sabatini one could argue in General, was a much bigger pain for Graf than Seles was, as Sabatini had more wins over Graf between 1990 and 1993 then Seles did, the problem is her wins were all on smaller stages. They were both equal pains for Graf in different ways so they could be equated, don't brush off Sabatini as nothing, although Graf overall had her number, she still gave her fits.
Also, plenty of people talk about how Graf was suffering a huge string of issues in the 90's, that is the root of the whole Graf Vs Seles debate as to if the Stabbing hadn't happened, when Graf got back into form, Arguably in 1993, what would have happened? Seles bothered Graf at the majors, and that shows through and through and had they faced at the other majors in those 2 years Seles would have been the favorite and probable victor anywhere else but Wimbledon.
Sabatini should have been number 1 at some point in 1991. She was so good, but just always came up short in the majors.
Purostaff
Banned
lambielspins
Banned
The womens game right now is so hopeless that it looks like a 30% and 100 pounds overweight Serena Williams is going to win another slam. How would a prime Steffi Graf do today? You figure it out.
380pistol
Banned
The thing I have is people don't take thngs in context. In 1992 Seles one 10-8 in the 3rd on clay, then got bithslapped on grass in what.... 55 minutes??? The 1993 Aus Open final, there was anarticle posted by a Seles (that made me laugh) cuz it said Graf's loss was her own doing by not coming and finishing off points when she was dictating play, as well as a crcila overrule which opened the door or Seles to get the break in the 3rd set.
Another thing is people say Fed owns Roddick based on H2H. But Roddick has eld match points in matches, choked away a lead in 2004 Wim F, was up 0-40to go up 2 sets to 1 in 2006 US Open F, a year later in Flushing played Fed tough, but none of that matters. Graf owned Sabatini, but yet the context of their matches is taken. What was Garf's head to head vs Sabatini in 1991-92, and then the rest of the time. It's telling that Gabriella did better over that time frame than Seles' 1-3 vs Graf, yet I don't think anyone would agrue Sabatini 1991-92 > Seles 1991-92.
380pistol
Banned
Can you read??? Did I say Graf owned Sabatini in 1990. I said throwout 1990, and 'To that point"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now what was Graf's heard to head vs Sabatini to that point.
That's right......
FOR RENT
Gabriella Sabatini
Contact Steffi Graf at 1-800-Forehand
grafrules
Banned
She did underperform in the majors but she also would have taken over the 1 ranking had she won the 1991 Canadian Open IIRC. However she had an injury in her semifinal loss to Capriati there.
grafrules
Banned
Roddick never took sets off of Federer with the frequency that Sabatini did to prime Graf even in the late 80s.
Also you are pointing out that in 91-92 Sabatini was doing even better vs Graf than Seles. The interesting thing is wouldnt that go to prove even further the point that Sabatini was simply a tough opponent for Graf, even with Graf winning most of their career meetings? The difference of course is Sabatini faltered in the bigger matches while Graf raised for them, whereas Seles raised for the bigger matches as well just as much or more than Graf. However Sabatini beating Graf so often in smaller tournaments and once in big tournament in the early 90s while playing the best tennis of her career is not good basis for a Graf slump, when Sabatini was even beating Graf much more than anyone else in smaller tournaments and pushing her more in bigger tournaments than anyone else as early as 88-89. You said yourself Sabatini was doing even bigger vs Graf than Seles in the early 90s, and as I said earlier Sabatini was doing even better vs Graf in 88-89 than Navratilova was doing. Yet the general consensus and rankings both support Navratilova 88-89 > Sabatini 88-89 and Seles 91-92 > Sabatini 91-92 which shows what a tough opponent, particularly in smaller tournaments, Sabatini must have been for Graf in general to be doing as well as she even did despite that Graf won 70-75% of the matches still.
I see what are saying regarding the Graf-Seles matches in the final year. Everyone knows the gap Graf has on Seles on grass is much better than the gap Seles has on Graf on any other surface. However that doesnt change that Seles was still winning their biggest matches not on grass before the stabbing, regardless how competitive they were. Actually it might suggest Graf had to thoroughly outplay Seles to win most times, as in a real tight affair the mental toughness of Seles was so incredible that it was even a hair over Graf's and gave her the edge.
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Seles was winning slams and challenging the top players in 95/96 when she was about the same weight as Serena is now, so I don't think it is actually any worse than it used to be, to be honest. The thing that is noticeable is the mental toughness of the players.
navratilovafan
Banned
Seles was never really winning slam(s) per say in her comeback. Slams would imply more than one which was not the case. Monica won only 1 slam in the entire 8+ years of her comeback (95-2003), and that one slam was only because Graf didnt play that years Australian Open and it was just before Hingis's real emergence. She also was gifted by Chanda Rubin's massive choke in the semis, but then again that would only support your point of it being not much different than today as that is the sort of thing we see all the time these days.
Serena though is winning multiple slams, in fact she is almost dominant at the moment as she has been in the last 3 slam finals and will probably win her 2nd slam in a row. She is doing this in even worse shape than Seles was in 95-96. Serena's current fitness is more on par with Seles in 1997 which was the lowest point of all Seles's ever reached fitness wise, far worse than 95-96. I do see a big difference, even if I would concede 95-96 wasnt the best time for womens tennis either, it is still better than today by a long ways.
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She won a slam in 1996 and played a competitive match against Graf at the US Open, beat Sanchez, Martinez, Novotna etc in this time, and she was pretty huge during that period. I think tennis is worse now, but people have very selective memories as well.
I have to respectfully disagree with the Serena vs. Seles fitness comparison. Serena now is fit and strong....also completely different body types, how much of the weight Serena carries is muscle? Seles 97 in comparison was getting by on anticipation and footwork and was a shot maker...Serenain comparison is more explosive off the mark and explosive once she gets moving even carrying that weight due to muscle mass, just an opinion...and believe me I'm a huge Monica fan. I'd be more interested in seeing a peak Seles play a peak Serena.
thalivest
Banned
No she isnt. She is a horse now. Take a look at her from 1999-2003 and you will see she is far from fit and strong now. The difference in her appearance between now and then is blindingly glaring. I understand her bigger body type and she still looked completely different in the years I spoke of than she does now even with that musuclar body. The only reason Serena wins any slams these days is the most pitiful womens field in tennis history currently in existence, and because everyone keeps choking and gifting her every match she gets in trouble. Since she claims to be very religious she should thank god for the lucky horseshoe he wedged up her ass.
thalivest
Banned
I would say Seles was still relevant in her second career from 1995-2003 was but I wouldnt go as far as to say she was any longer huge, except in the belly. Players that had more success than Seles overall in the 1995-2003 time frame she was still an active WTA player would be: Serena, Venus, Hingis, Graf, Davenport, Pierce, Henin, Capriati, Clijsters. I might be forgetting someone else but she was only overall the 9th or 10th most successful player during the combined period of her 2nd career so I wouldnt say she was huge any longer, well other than her body mass.
Players that have had more success than Serena Williams in the Serena Williams "McDonalds era" would be: Justine Henin. That is it, only one player. I am not dissing Seles, or putting her down in favor of Serena btw. Just saying that it is easier today than ever today for a fat player to romp over the women tour as Serena currently is as she waddles around the court and lets her opponent double fault and choke away any lead they have on her. Even when Seles was fat she was atleast working hard on the practice court doing groundstroke drills and other things, just not enough in the gym and on her diet. Serena by all accounts doesnt even do that. Atleast Seles shotmaking when she was in position still looked very sharp, reflecting this non-fitness related work. Serena doesnt do anything anywhere near the old Serena used to except sometimes the serve, and is pretty obviously even further removed from putting any work in on tennis than post-stabbing Seles was.
Basically with Venus also no longer really caring, Justine retired, Kim retired, Sharapova out, anyone of any talent retired, the enormous chasm in both talent level and mental strength between Serena and the remaining current women is bigger than it has ever been between one player and their peers in history. This a tribute to both her own outrageous talent and tremendous mental strength, and the non existent talent and mental strength of the remaining WWTT (Womens Walrus Tennis Tour) members. That is why she can use tennis as a part time hobby and still further pad her slam title tally.
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The-Champ
Legend
Steffi would do well, no doubt about it. A great player would do well in any era.
However...Steffi never had to face forhands as big as today's girls can produce. Ivanovic, Dementieva Safina Zvonareva, Petrova, Sharapova even kuzzi. Also, today's girls return more aggressively than before.
I agree with what one poster mentioned earlier that the williams would be more dedicated had Steffi played today. Imagine Serena firing on all cylinders with that massive serve. Prime Serena with her huge serve and cruel returns and Prime Steffi with her wicked slices and great fh would have been fun to watch.
However...Steffi never had to face forhands as big as today's girls can produce. Ivanovic, Dementieva Safina Zvonareva, Petrova, Sharapova even kuzzi. Also, today's girls return more aggressively than before.
I agree with what one poster mentioned earlier that the williams would be more dedicated had Steffi played today. Imagine Serena firing on all cylinders with that massive serve. Prime Serena with her huge serve and cruel returns and Prime Steffi with her wicked slices and great fh would have been fun to watch.
Give me a freaking break. Graf herself, Seles, Pierce, Capriati, Davenport, all hit forehands way better than all those players you named, other than possibly the oft injured and usually absent Sharapova. Even others like Huber, Majoli, Sukova, Novotna, Mary Joe Fernandez, a granny Navratilova, Sabatini, hit a forehand atleast as well if not better than most of those women you mentioned as well, and in the case of some of those that wasnt even their main thing to do unlike all the ones you named who can do hardly anything except that one strength. Those players you mentioned cant do anything except hit a forehand as well, that is about all they do well, and their forehands still get destroyed by the Graf forehand, so where do they go from there exactly?
Those players you mentioned are pretty much worthless, except for Maria who I mentioned is almost always hurt. They are all chokers who cant do anything except hit a big (but not that amazing forehand). They cant serve, cant volley, most of them cant move or play defense, have no variety, and all are chokers of the highest order. They cant even stop a way past her prime Serena from winning slams or hold onto 5-1 leads vs a way past her prime Serena, and you are arguing they would be difficult for Graf to face in anyway shape or form, LOL!
I agree with what egn said on the first page though. If Steffi was there Venus and Serena would be alot better right now. Venus and Serena know they can win slams even giving such minimal effort to the game right now. With Graf around they would both know they wouldnt have a prayer of winning even one slam with their current less than partial commitment to tennis and lack of attention to fitness (especialy Serena). Graf is not a chump who would ever choke and gift them big matches in the most ridiculous ways even to players out of shape and out of dedication. As they are now she would simply destroy and win everything. Serena and Venus would finally have the kick in the rear they need to go to work then. They would both get their butts in gear and play to a standard closer to their true potential and we would see a fierce 3 way battle at the top. Essenetialy you would have 3 players playing light years better than anything we see today since Venus and Serena would be much better players than we see today if Steffi was here, more like what they were in 2002 and 2003.
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bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I have to disagree. I've read so many comments during the AO that Serena is a horse or a cow, that she is "extremely out of shape" or "100 pounds overweight."
I agree that she has been in better shape, and she is not at her peak. But, really she is in much better shape than people are giving her credit for, snf generally in "good" shape, if not "great."
At least you acknowledge her thick body type, while others think its just an excuse. Again, we've seen better from Serena, but we've seen far worse, like when she lost in the 3rd round of Wimbledon to Jill Craybas.
Also, unrelated to Serena's fitness, she won multiple Slams (including 4 in a row) during 1999-2003, which encompasses a much stronger era in women's tennis, when Davenport was in her prime, Venus was in her prime, Hingis was still playing well, Henin had begun to emerge, Capriati was in form, etc. The fact that she's taking advantage of today's weak competition isn't her problem. She's shown she can win vs. better competition.
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thalivest
Banned
You are right she won slams and many tier 1 titles from 1999-2003 vs a much stronger field than today. That was also when she was in much better shape, much more commited, much more consistent and playing at a much higher level. OK perhaps I am being too hard on her fitness level it still is certainly not optimal, and not what one would ever expect from a champion in tennis (only Seles in 95-96 as rolandg pointed out could be another example, that is pretty much it) . One could compare photos of her from 2003 to today and it would be clear, but one can also look at how she moves around the court or looks so fatigued in heat or a long match today. Aside from that, regardless how much of it is fitnes related the caliber of tennis she is playing is so far removed from 2002-2003 that it is hard to even put into words, yet because of what is around her today she still wins. Nobody disputed she has won vs much stronger competition, but that was back when she was a much stronger player able to do so.
D
Deleted member 3771
Guest
Graf would win a few slams per year if she was playing now. Players like Safina can still make slam finals making 50 or 60 errors in a match and making a mountain of doubles. Serena really isn't fit enough now, but she would be the biggest challenge if fully fit.
navratilovafan
Banned
Did anyone see the womens final today. A 26 year old Steffi Graf could be ranked #1 today while playing in a wheelchair. It is insulting to even ask how any of the top 15 women all time including players like Bueno, Goolagong, Marble, would do in todays field. They would all dominate and win everything vs todays worst ever WTA field. It is not even a question worth considering as the answer is so simple.
cokebottle
Banned
You are all just haters. Serena proved today she is maybe the best women tennis player of all time. She moves ahead of Seles and Connoly into 7th all time in slams won:
Court 24
Graf 22
Wills Moody 19
Navratilova 18
Evert 18
King 12
Serena Williams 10
Seles 9
Connoly 9
Lenglen 8
Mallorey 8
So incredible.
Court 24
Graf 22
Wills Moody 19
Navratilova 18
Evert 18
King 12
Serena Williams 10
Seles 9
Connoly 9
Lenglen 8
Mallorey 8
So incredible.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
Her win is incredible, deserved and she is among the greats, but she will never be the greatest player of all time. You need to excell in more than winning grandslams and overpowering opponents. I respect her and applauded for her, even though I said two years ago, she would never win a slam again. To be the greatest you also need to be a champion, humble in victory and gracious in defeat. Steffi Graf was hurt by tennislosses, but became better in being a graceful runner up and she always was very humble as a victor. She would only retire, if she really couldn't play anymore and you could see how much she enjoyed tennis. You have to put Serena's win in perspective. Graf also st had to play gs finals against subtop players, but she beat more champions for the title. She would never call the golden slam: the Steffi Slam.
Serena is a great player, but she is not the greatest. Martina, Steffi and Chris can fight it out at the top.
cokebottle
Banned
You have to admit Serena is atleast top 6 all time though.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Serena is currently top 10 all time but not top 6, at least not yet anyway.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
She can get there.
It's not about what she's done or can do at this point since 22 or even 18 majors at this point is really out of the question.
It's more about the perception she's created about herself, her game, and her career. That's what tennis historians most remember.
I think WarriorRoger touched on this: She's not a graceful champion. She has a brutish game. Even if she is not out of shape, there is the appearance she is. She's never been a full time player.
None of these things are true about the women who currently occupy the top 6 spots. So, there is really no room for Serena there.
cokebottle
Banned
Well who are the 6 or more women who are over Serena then. I can see Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Wills Moody, and Court. I cant really see anyone else though.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
on my own list in no particular order Court, Graf, Moody, Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Connolly, Leglen and King would all be above Serena...Serena right now would be number 10 on my list.
cokebottle
Banned
Seles above Serena? ROTFL, now that is funny. Seles could never win Wimbledon even in her prime, and got humiliated in her only final after beating a 35 year old in the semis. Serena though has not only won all 4 slams but all 4 in a row. Serena already has more slam titles than Seles overall as well. I still remembe the two playing each other as well, Seles was made to look like a cardboard cutout by Serena's massive power and athleticsm.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Serena may have 1 more slam, but Seles has other things in her favor. She has more weeks at number 1, more yr end number 1 finishes, more career singles titles and twice in her career won 3 slams in a season, something Serena was only able to do once. Seles also made 6 consecutive slam finals without missing a slam tournament, the most slam finals serena was able to consecutively make without missing a grand slam tournament was 4. Seles made the final of Every slam she was able to contend from the 1991 australian open to the 96 australian open, the 95 Us Open final and 96 Austrailian open title coming after a roughly 2 year hiatus from competition. Sorry but that to me gives the edge to Seles.
cokebottle
Banned
Serena missed making 6 straight slam finals only because she played the greatest clay court player in the world in the 2003 semis. Too bad the French Open are too stupid to seed by surface (look at all those years Sampras was #1 seed at the French) otherwise Serena and Justine would have always been in opposite halves and played in the final as they should have. Serena would have destroyed everyone else at that French but barely lost to Justine. The Clijsters-Henin final was a joke, the Serena-Justine semi was the real final.
If more year end #1s and more tournament wins determined who was better than even someone like Lindsay Davenport would be way greater than Serena. After all she is clearly ahead in both. Serena doesnt care that much about things like that, she cares about winning the biggest titles.
If more year end #1s and more tournament wins determined who was better than even someone like Lindsay Davenport would be way greater than Serena. After all she is clearly ahead in both. Serena doesnt care that much about things like that, she cares about winning the biggest titles.
halalula1234
Professional
dont be mean Seles got stabbed just as she was evolving and developing her game even more so she has a chance of winning wimbledon since she turned pro in 1989 and it was only 1993 when she was stabbed and u are forgetting she was only 19 she still has plenty of time then to develop her game for the grass surface. but too bad the stabbin change everything.
cokebottle
Banned
Seles was a joke on grass. She wimped out on Wimbledon in her prime because she was scared of losing there, so withdrew at first without even giving a reason and then was fined for it. Then the next year was the one year she made the final and she was humiliated by Graf, winning only 3 games, and she only had to beat a 35 year old women to make it to the final. When she returned after the stabbing she was making finals on other surfaces, but losing 2nd and 3rd rounds of Wimbledon to players like Stopirkova and Testud. On grass Seles was always pretty much a joke.
So did Graf, Navratilova and Evert. Let's be honest. Serena says she cares only about winning the biggest titles because after 2002 she's never been able to stay fit enough to play and win many tour events.
anointedone
Banned
Exactly true.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I think Graf would destroy ANYONE in the current women's game. Graf had the unstoppable combo of power and precision.
The girls out there today are not even close to her class. They are completely one-dimensional compared to Steffi. She would beat them with finesse and placement, or knocking forehand missles or backhand slice winners at will.
No one--not even Sharapova or Serena at their individual best--could keep up with Graf.
The girls out there today are not even close to her class. They are completely one-dimensional compared to Steffi. She would beat them with finesse and placement, or knocking forehand missles or backhand slice winners at will.
No one--not even Sharapova or Serena at their individual best--could keep up with Graf.
cokebottle
Banned
Backhand slice winners, LOL! Steffi hardly ever hit a winner of her slice backhand.
Also why would you say even Sharapova when Henin, Serena, and Venus at their best are all much better than Maria at her best anyway. Maria is so overrated.
Hardly?
What do you make of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvvF4qELOnI
and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYnv1uObV_Y,
and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd9_-57tjHA,
and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RT7Lp8ZTXo,
and this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLYx5V122U0...
Hardly?
Wuornos
Professional
I think a prime Steffi Graf would have been a force in any era. The only player I believe who could have got the upper hand on her when Graf was in her prime was peak Martina Navratilova, although a prime Seles I would regard as about equal to a prime graf.
As to Steffi playing today, I think her presence would have forced some players on the womens circuit to raise their game. As we saw when Navratilova emerged and Chris raiseed her standard.
I believe the top of the womens game currently is about the same as it was in the 80 and early 90s - minus the top three players at any point in time. E.g. Graff, Seles, Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, Sanchez Vicario. I do not believe the strength in depth of the womens game has changed.
Based on this belief, Graf would dominate the current game.
As to Steffi playing today, I think her presence would have forced some players on the womens circuit to raise their game. As we saw when Navratilova emerged and Chris raiseed her standard.
I believe the top of the womens game currently is about the same as it was in the 80 and early 90s - minus the top three players at any point in time. E.g. Graff, Seles, Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, Sanchez Vicario. I do not believe the strength in depth of the womens game has changed.
Based on this belief, Graf would dominate the current game.
Wuornos
Professional
I agree Seles wasn't as good on grass. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. She more than made up for that weakness on other surfaces in her prime.
Tim
The current crop of woman pro's is pretty rubbish these days. Where's the heart???!!! Graf had it more than most. I couldn't be bothered watching the girls play in this years Aussie open. Graf would destroy... sure the Williams sisters at their peak would give her a game. The rest can go home!!!
jaap deboeck
Rookie
Many players hit harder than Graf now. And that is what the modern game is all about: raw power. Certainly Graf would be an elite player as it is only a dozen years since her last dominating year, but to just assume she would be the Graf of of the late 80's is silly. Whatever one thinks of the state of the WTA, there really is far more depth, and that matters. Though still today the best women athletes are in track and field and swimming.
Serena really is THAT good even at 90% as a part-timer. Fans belittle her accomplishments because of her selfish "here today gone tomorrow" regime. As most realize, every one is better today in every sport (save for Michael Jordan and Jack Nicklaus). Tennis of even the 1980's is not what we see today.
None of this diminishes a legend like Graf in any way. Rosewall and Laver et. al. would also not beat Nadal on clay or Federer on grass!
Serena really is THAT good even at 90% as a part-timer. Fans belittle her accomplishments because of her selfish "here today gone tomorrow" regime. As most realize, every one is better today in every sport (save for Michael Jordan and Jack Nicklaus). Tennis of even the 1980's is not what we see today.
None of this diminishes a legend like Graf in any way. Rosewall and Laver et. al. would also not beat Nadal on clay or Federer on grass!
navratilovafan
Banned
Wrong in nearly everything you said. There is hardly anyone who thinks of the state of the WTA today as having far more depth. There is no depth and no quality at the top. Anyone who has just finished watching the Australian Open would atest to that. A player like Jelena Dokic is just starting a comeback and yet is already right back where she was at her peak in 2002 which took her many years to reach back then. Safina had negative numbers the whole tournament and was still in the final.
There are not many women who hit harder than Steffi left today at all. The only possible ones are Serena and Venus. As already noted Serena is out of shape, and Venus only tries to perform 3 or 4 tournaments a year. Ivanovic, Safina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, are an example of women considered the biggest hitters today and Graf easily hits harder than all of them, despite the fact that is the only thing these women can even do well.
Serena isnt at 90% now either. She is more like 55 to 60% and no she would not win if there were even 2 or 3 decent champions players in her current fitness and form. She is playing no better now than she was in 2007 when a second tier all time great like Justine Henin beat her in all 3 slams Justine played in, although Serena won a slam that year which Justine did not play in. So imagine 2 or 3 players even at Justine's level, which still isnt even the highest level really. Serena at her current shape and form would not be winning anything, and would have to become a full time player to even hope to start winning again. She might still be stopped from winning anything if Justine didnt abruptly retire, and as I said Justine is a second tier all time great at most.
There are not many women who hit harder than Steffi left today at all. The only possible ones are Serena and Venus. As already noted Serena is out of shape, and Venus only tries to perform 3 or 4 tournaments a year. Ivanovic, Safina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, are an example of women considered the biggest hitters today and Graf easily hits harder than all of them, despite the fact that is the only thing these women can even do well.
Serena isnt at 90% now either. She is more like 55 to 60% and no she would not win if there were even 2 or 3 decent champions players in her current fitness and form. She is playing no better now than she was in 2007 when a second tier all time great like Justine Henin beat her in all 3 slams Justine played in, although Serena won a slam that year which Justine did not play in. So imagine 2 or 3 players even at Justine's level, which still isnt even the highest level really. Serena at her current shape and form would not be winning anything, and would have to become a full time player to even hope to start winning again. She might still be stopped from winning anything if Justine didnt abruptly retire, and as I said Justine is a second tier all time great at most.
