I love it when I'm vindicated

[Free_Martha]

To all those knee-jerk, hypersensitive, PC-spoon-fed-liberal-media-sheep smacktards who called me "racist" for referring to the Williams sisters as the Ghetto sisters---you all can now officially eat it *and* STFU now. Read:

Richard Williams, the father of Venus and Serena, makes plenty of outlandish claims, once boasting that he owned the air rights over India and that he was interested in buying the Rockefeller Center in New York. Yesterday, sucking on his cigarillo outside Centre Court, he suggested that Tim Henman would have won Wimbledon by now if he had been "from the ghetto".

Williams, who calls his daughters the "Cinderellas of the ghetto" said that Henman's middle-class upbringing "had messed things up". "Tim needs more attitude, then can he kick ass," Williams said.

"Tim has been told all his life to be polite, and that's nice, but he needs to be rougher and tougher. I want to see him behave like one of those mean dogs, those pit bulls."

 

[Don Felder]

Hmm... well I'm no Sisters fan and I'm certainly no Richard Williams fan... but he has a point about Henman.

 

[Phil]

spoon-fed-liberal-media-sheep smacktards

Talk about spoon-fed. This yokel's been listening to Limbaugh for too long.

 

[PureCarlosMoyaDrive]

LOL, when will he just die? And the ghetto sisters, have to admit that that is pretty funny. Ghetto cinderellas? Even funnier. Who actually calls themselves ghetto in tennis?

 

[david aames]

You're such a c-o-cky hating little guy.

I don't recall white people throwing around the n word when rappers were really into doing it a few years ago... But what do I know, maybe you do use the n word with your friends of the young republicans club.

To all those knee-jerk, hypersensitive, spoon-fed-liberal-media-sheep smacktards who called me "racist" for referring to the Williams sisters as the Ghetto sisters---you all can now officially eat it *and* STFU now. :twisted: Read:

 

[VamosRafa]

What Richard says doesn't make it right, IMO. We all have to go with our own conscience, of course. My conscience doesn't allow me to refer to Venus, Serena, or anyone else, in those terms.

 

[PureCarlosMoyaDrive]

I hope you don't think that I am racist. I'm just laughing because I mean, comon, who calls their kids the ghetto cinderellas? What a joke.

 

[James Brown]

purecarlos...dont even worry about what some idiot on the internet decides to label you as. if they wanna call you racist, let them, they aren't from a minority (the ones in this thread anyway), so they can just shut their self righteous traps up.

Thanks for this free martha, illustrates the double standard when it comes to color. its ok for people of color (read: black) to say whatever they want about people who arent of color (read: white), but the inverse isnt permitted. Well thats great.

 

[Deuce]

Who actually calls themselves ghetto in tennis?

Your buddy Vince.

 

[Cypo]

There's a big difference between "cinderellas from the ghetto" and "ghetto sisters" - one being verb tense and another being that cinderella was a beautiful trapped princess.

As far as Henman goes - Sampras and many others have shown that you can win being a gentleman - Richard Williams may have needed his attitude to buck the system the way he has, but that's not quite the same situation as for most tennis players.

 

[Robbiser]

David- I never heard the N word you were refering to at any Young Republican meetings that I went to.

Richard Williams does prove there maybe a double standard. That man doesn't play with a full deck of cards anyway.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

Well, I didn't call you a racist or hardly even notice you, Free_Martha, but you've got me thinking you might be one now. Your, "I'm not a racist because he is" defense is more damning than convincing. A piece of advice: Anger Management

 

[BLiND]

Whats the n word?

Do you mean that word which means people from Nigeria?

 

[Ronaldo]

NUTS

 

[AAAA]

Your, "I'm not a racist because he is" defense is more damning than convincing.

I agree, just because someone else does it or said it doesn't make it right.

 

[@wright]

Why does everyone think black people own the word ghetto? The word originally described Jewish slums, now it's little more than slang for a very low socio-economic area. Big deal. What racial implications does it have? The sistahs are straight outta compton, less ghetto than Vince Spadea, but from the ghetto, regardless. The Williamses actually don't talk ghetto, but are eloquent enough. They do act c-ocky as hell, have egos bigger than H1's, and Serena dresses like a joke, so they do act like other people that have come from the ghetto and had success(football & basketball players).

 

[david aames]

Care to name your source/provide a link for the whole article? Being a spoon fed liberal media sheep I like to read things for myself.

To all those knee-jerk, hypersensitive, spoon-fed-liberal-media-sheep smacktards who called me "racist" for referring to the Williams sisters as the Ghetto sisters---you all can now officially eat it *and* STFU now. :twisted: Read:

Richard Williams, the father of Venus and Serena, makes plenty of outlandish claims, once boasting that he owned the air rights over India and that he was interested in buying the Rockefeller Center in New York. Yesterday, sucking on his cigarillo outside Centre Court, he suggested that Tim Henman would have won Wimbledon by now if he had been "from the ghetto".

Williams, who calls his daughters the "Cinderellas of the ghetto" said that Henman's middle-class upbringing "had messed things up". "Tim needs more attitude, then can he kick ass," Williams said.

"Tim has been told all his life to be polite, and that's nice, but he needs to be rougher and tougher. I want to see him behave like one of those mean dogs, those pit bulls."

 

[Ben42]

This is good, Martha.

Richard Williams *is* a racist, anti-semetic, lying, publicity seeking, jerk. I don’t have any argument with that.

His statements are pretty much the same as yours. I don’t have an argument with that either.

What I don’t understand is how a racist jerk’s statements which agree with your statements somehow “vindicate” you and make your statements not racist. Am I missing something? Perhaps you could spoon feed it to me a little better?

 

[James Brown]

it shows that richard williams is an idiot and thus nullifies the racist implications of mr. william's detractors. Or at least thats what i figure free martha was going for. heh

 

[mileslong]

Why does everyone think black people own the word ghetto?

thank you. i was just about to type the same thing. the self righteousness on this board is downright amazing...and amazing doesnt always mean good...

 

[a verrry large duck]

I can't believe i'm breaking away from men's tennis to answer this. First off, is this the same mr. williams you say lies everytime, don't know anything about tennis, you would not take stock in anything he says, but somehow he makes a point that apparently you can't make yourself and he made it for you?? How the heck you comfortable with that first off? I have no idea where you get all those statement, but people like you have been trying to make the same lame argument on and on so i'll just talk to that. Real simple question, is ELVIS PRESLEY a reverse-racist because he sings about the "ghetto"? Yeah, and I suppose every southerner, who "is proud to be a southerner" proud of where he comes from and shows it off, uses southerner in the same away some yankee from up north, who thinks the south is a bunch of rednecks and hillbilly's as they saw in the movie Deliverance, would be referring to when they refer "them southerners". I too am sick and tired of this "IM NOT THE RACIST, YOU ARE!" tripe. Please, I could care less whether you are a racist or not in the privacy of your home, and its wholly laughable that you'd accuse any of us of being racist against our own race. I suppose the world would be a boring place if everyone reasoned in a reasonable way. But don't put the williams sisters and their family under a microscope and just about everytime the williams sister lose a match, post anti-williams celebratory threads titled "the uglies are out" and proceed through the same formulaic tripe accusing them being the ugliest appearanced people on the planet, or them being the most arrogant, unsportsmanlike, and ungrateful people on the planet and say that they are "typical of lower class black people in the ghetto..." and not expect people to rebut. And of course, that makes me a reverse-racist, for pointing out your oblivious inconsistencies. This is all a bunch of bull. Both the number and viciousness of personal board attacks on the williams sisters and their families the last 3 years is well beyond the stratosphere of anyone in recent memory. Join in next week, same williams time, same williams channel, as we expore how venus williams's left occipital bone of the left ear proves that she is both the ugliest tennis player and the most unsportsmanslike, oh yeah and somehow proves that college is a bad thing now that they mentioned something about fashion school in their press conference. Geeeeezzzzzz.

 

[pound cat]

Americans seem to be obsessed with racism. Can someone explain this to me as I'm not American & this theme constantly recurs on this board.

 

[dander]

very simple, pound cat, things are completely insane here. this place is filled with nothing but violence, hate, brutality, and insanity on every level.

 

[mileslong]

very simple, pound cat, things are completely insane here. this place is filled with nothing but violence, hate, brutality, and insanity on every level.

yes, this of course is purely an american phenomenon. :roll:

 

[NoBadMojo]

pound cat, americans are not obsessed w. racism. if we were, i would think there would have been some violence directed at people living in the us (maybe even illegally) of the 'types' that were responsible for the 9/11. to me it is truly amazing that 'we' americans have been able to show such non racism and resraint and not retaliated over here in a violent way against those 'types' of people that were responsible for killing our men women and children in such a cowardly way. you are maybe just looking at the tw board which can be very dysfunctional..it's kind of like basing your view of americans on the jerry springer show my .02 Ed

 

[dander]

Ed, I hate to break it to you, but there were hundreds of incidents of violence or intimidation of "those types" after September 11, some major and some minor, and if you think there isn't racial profiling going on in the highest levels of our government you're living in an alternative universe...
as for non-Americans viewing America like the Springer show, just take a look at how Iraq was and is being handled and then tell me which one's more outlandish

 

[alienhamster]

While the interest in (fear of?) racism is certainly not a strictly American phenomenon, it does seem to come up here a lot--moreso than in other cultures--in our education, politics, media, etc. It's an identity category that a great majority of scholars and non-scholars have found useful in explaining social difference, economic disparity, and in-group behavior. But I don't think we're any more obsessed with it than other nations are obsessed with "nationality" or "language" or "religion" as a major identity category.

I also don't think "ghetto"--in current usage--necessarily implies race. But in my students' and my own recent studies/observations (I do English linguistics), it *always* seems to imply something about socioeconomic status. ("Look at this shirt . . . it's *so* ghetto.") But honestly, it's often not easy to distinguish race and socioeconomic status.

What did you actually mean when you said "ghetto," Free_Martha? I don't think anyone here really knows . . .

 

[chad shaver]

You know, I just came back from Europe, with stops in Germany, Switzerland, France and Spain. I won't mention which country we were in when we were told told to come back at 2 when the restaurant opened, and then were told at 2 that the restaurant was closed. I also won't mention which country we were in when I had a person walk up to me and scream in my face, nor when I was told to eat s***.

I will, however, say that it was a wonderful experience. The people in all countries were mostly wonderful, and made my trip most enjoyable. I will also say that my time away from this board has allowed me to look back and see exactly how childish our antics on this board truly are. We all seem to come onto this board, look for a fight, and then start pointing fingers and insulting one another. I am embarassed.

 

[Stinkdyr]

well crikey, it's about time we did do some serious profiling in Duhmerica! I mean, ya don't need to focus on 12 yr old chinese girls when screening passengers at the airport gate now do ya?

 

[NoBadMojo]

dander it has been very very minor considering what has transpired IMO, and mostly shortly after the 'incident'. and i certainly wasnt speaking about the governement in any way,,i was only speaking about the people... but feel free to be critical of comments i didnt even make people around here just look for the negative..any reason or no reason at all to get into someones face and give them a bunch of crap. and this board is alot like the jerry springer show in alot of cases IMO and not at all a true reflection of Americans... ed

 

[pound cat]

Thanks to those who made a comment in response to my question about racism.

 

[dander]

my pleasure, poundcat. i used to live in berlin and amongst all of the germans i met the issue of racism in america came up again and again and again.

what you have to realize is that america has never had to face up to the sham that is its history. every society has founding myths upon which it rests, and buttresses this with the history it writes for itself as it begins to prosper and thrive. eventually this must come to an end as the society faces upheaval, revolution, or defeat, but for the usa this has yet to happen. whereas the generations in europe were forced to deal with the unthinkable inhumanities of 1848 to 1945, we in america have never been humbled and forced into this sort of catharsis. the evil sides of our history are still woven into the very fabric of everything around us today, and this includes racism obviously, as is revealed on this board every day.

 

[Phil]

I also won't mention which country we were in when I had a person walk up to me and scream in my face, nor when I was told to eat s***.

Chad - I think I can correctly guess which country that was. Hopefully you demonstrated a little bit of good old S. Carolina reciprocity-i.e. by biting the Fro...I mean antagonist's head off. But seriously, this board is not so serious...and GENERALLY shouldn't be a source of embarassment. It's a diversion, is all. Childish antics? Yes, sometimes, but is that so bad? Talking about something and the actual reality are two very different things. A couple weeks in the clean, tourist-friendly capitals of W. Europe shouldn't REALLY convince you that society is more civil over there, should it? I'm assuming you only had time to see the surface of those societies...there's a lot of racial and social problems over there-stuff that DWARFS what the US has. France is a simmering cauldron of tension with its 5 mm Arabs, Spain has the ETA/Basques-people DIE there, the UK has racial problems as bad or worse than the US, East German Skinheads, Serbia/Kosovo, institutionalized discrimination against Europe's Roma (Gypsies) and on and on. Childish antics are preferable to the kind of ethnic cleansing and the repugnant rhetoric that fuels it that I've seen coming out of Europe. And check out one of the European Websites and you'll find some pretty nasty stuff-that goes beyond childish. This is just talk; the reality's a lot worse.
===========================
Now back to my childish antics. What Camilio's and Ben42 said...Martha, where are you? Care to comment? Hey, where is she? Just popped up for more idiocy and then disappeared like the troll she is. Well anyone who takes his cues from Richard Williams has got to have a screw loose. Never thought I'd hear that old Rich was a MUSE to someone other than his daughters-and even THEY ignore him these days! Vindicated indeed. You sure "showed" us.

 

[mileslong]

dander. i just the fact you are citing anecotes from germany about how racist america is. could that be any more ironic?

While the interest in (fear of?) racism is certainly not a strictly American phenomenon, it does seem to come up here a lot--moreso than in other cultures

yeah its much more prevalent than say india where a caste system is the norm or how about many muslim countries where they simply imprison you or gas you if you are of a certain race.

dander, seriously are you real?

 

[Cypo]

It's actually positive that the racism gets discussed. Where I live, racism is so accepted that being "auslanderfeindlich" is hardly something to discuss. Racist comments are openly spoken (not within the hearing of the intended - usually). On the board and in the States at least there is a feeling that racism is wrong.

I'm not sure Poundcat - but I've heard English Canadians slur French Canadians - maybe that's as close as it's gets in Canada ?

 

[BLiND]

I have to agree that the subject of racism comes up on these boards a lot more than any of the UK forums I visit.

I am not sure why, but you do seem obsessed about making sure your not saying racist, but its all about what people read into something... and not what the writter intended.

For instance, if someone was from Nigeria... would it bother you if they were called a ******?... or if they were from Pakistan, a Paki?

etc, etc.

 

[pound cat]

I find it interesting that "racism" seems to have become a term to describe issues that aren't racist issues. For instance, the French are not a race, the Roma are not a race, nor are Muslims or Christians.

The French/Canadian issue is a political one (eg some Quebecers want to leave Canada ) and there is often a problem with language rights. However, the French and English are constitutional equals, and we have 2 official languages French and English and there is sometimes irritation when govt jobs are advertised as "must be bilingual" esp. by English- only speakers who have no french fluency, whereas a large majority of French people are completely bilingual. Sour grapes more than anything else IMO, or simply having been raised thousands of miles from any French-speaking prople.

There is a racial issue in Canada however, and it concerns the First Nations. aka Indians They are still suffering the affects of conquest, residential schools, the attempts at genocide. The are a marginalized people many of whom still live on reserves in remote areas in poverty, and are struggling to regain their languages and traditions, and they are making headway. A problem for aboriginals is that there are very few of them (3%) and they have been historically treated in a paternalistic way by the govt. (read white people) Attempts were made to integrate them into mainstream society, but they clung to what they had . Traditionally Canada is not a melting pot, but a multi-cultural society Aside...the model for the reserve system of apartheid was based on the Canadian Indian reserve system, the govt. dept. dealing with native issues is called the Dept. of Indian Affairs even though the term Indian is now considered derogatory.

The Canadian First Nations issue would have an entirely diferent sense of urgency if there were 8 million First Nations people instead of 800,000. It's should be a real source of shame to Canadians (it is, to a few people) and not many know that from time to time the treatment of native people by the legal system has resulted in incidents being recorded and investigated by Amnesty International.

 

[BLiND]

strange how n!gga is sensored, but paki is not

 

[alienhamster]

mileslong--

If you'd read my whole post, it should have been clear that I'm not talking about the existence of racism abroad but the different *terms* and *categories* different cultures use to describe difference. As poundcat has pointed out, Americans tend to deem certain issues as *racial* ones, whereas another culture might perceive the same conflict from a totally different perspective. For example, are you sure India talks about "race" rather than "caste"? I'd be interested to know more about the Muslim countries you're refering to, and whether or not it's ethnicity/religion rather than race that is targeted.

 

[Free_Martha]

my pleasure, poundcat. i used to live in berlin and amongst all of the germans i met the issue of racism in america came up again and again and again.

Germans complaining about America's racism? Oh, the irony! And can someone tell me why are Europeans so obsessed with America's racism? It's so annoying how they constantly use America as an excuse to ignore their own violent and growing racial problems.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

America's history a sham? Well, I guess the history courses I had to take growing up were all in vain; hell, I could've simply had David Lee Roth as my history instructor proclaim: "Class, listen up! America's history is nothing more than a sham--got that? Good. Now, finals are scheduled for tomorrow--CLASS DISMISSED!!"

Man dander, I respect your right to point out a nation's fault(s). But Berlin itself seems to have rubbed off on you. America like any other country has played the game of "the haves vs. the have-nots" replete with the attendant inequalities, etc.. But at the same time, no teacher of mine ever ignored discussion of Jim Crow laws, WWII camps on the West Coast, or the reasons behind the New York City draft riots during the Civil War.

Your using Berlin as some sort of bastion of tolerance is akin to a bunch of pyromaniacs nervously asking why the neighbor's kid has to play with matches. To recognize a country's faults for all the world to see is one thing---but to offer nothing more than a SWEEPING GENERALIZATION about a 235 year old country would indicate that you take a Euro-friendly delight in taking a cheap-shot at you know who.

By the way, did you get to spray paint your name on that fabulously elegant wall while you were in Berlin??? As I look out a window and see a a flag flying over a hospital at half mast, I'm tempted to paraphrase the following: "Mr. dander, tear down this wall of self-hating b.s.!"

peace

 

[NoBadMojo]

agree w. poundcat..the descriptor 'racist' now seems to apply to more than just race. it can be about a culture..and a racist can now be considered as anyone that exhibits abhorrent behaviour against people having core values that differ from their own or the accepted norm. it is pretty much assumed here in the US though and people know the exact inference when the term 'racist is used. . Quite normally, people that exhibit 'racist' behaviour are either non-educated, poverty striken, jealous of others for what they have, or desperate, or many of the above. my .02. are there racists in the US? sure <they are the ones w. the problems listed above....do you see many college grads as members of the KKK for example?>..are we a racist people?...absolutely not. altho respect and dignity are circling the drain as exhibited by some of the behaviour on this board.

 

[Cypo]

That's interesting about the First Nation in Canada, I was under the impression that Canada had managed the issue much better than the US, but it seem to be more similar than I thought.

I do use the term racism to mean judging a person based on their background, and you're right, it's incorrect, unfortunately I don't know a better word. Prejudice I guess is really what we're talking about.

Aren't people from Nigeria Nigerians ? I think N!gger comes from the French negre (no accents on this keyboard).

Why do Europeans harp on American racism (and the treatment of the American Indians too btw) ? Because many have the impression that we think we're perfect and they want to remind us that we're not any differnt from them.

 

[david aames]

Free Martha,

Now that you made in clear posting in other threads today that you are now back at your computer, can you please address the few questions that some of us here asked those last few days.

 

[PureCarlosMoyaDrive]

Who actually calls themselves ghetto in tennis?

Your buddy Vince.

Deuce, you're joking, right? I don't actually like Vince, watn to hang out with him, or root for him in tennis. I just think that his episode was very comical because of just how dumb he is. When you see a guy who thinks that he is that cool and he truly believes it, you just have to laugh.

 

[pound cat]

Racism cuts across all classes, financial levels, geographic locations, every century of history. It's everywhere, all the time as is the human's need to dominate somone they picture less worthy than themselves & people who don't look like you are the easiest to recognize & target. As long as there are fewer of them than you. Then you could be the target. It's all about power just as is acquisition of money. Given human nature, I can't see racism or whatever you want to call it disappearing. & human behaviour can be as perverse as it is fascinating.

 

[Phil]

I find it interesting that "racism" seems to have become a term to describe issues that aren't racist issues. For instance, the French are not a race, the Roma are not a race, nor are Muslims or Christians.

Pound cat - The Roma are, in fact, a race.

 

[C_Urala]

So, I quess it's time for me to enter ...and to emasculate this thread as well (since I can't delete it) :lol:

 

[Phil]

So are you saying you want this thread to be bAll-less, like yourself?

 

[C_Urala]

What do you think?