Incorrect racket drop - How to relearn? (muscle memory)

[TennisCJC]

Found a great video to try and model my takeback after
http://youtu.be/8xbC31AQqSgy

I'm going to work on this first and once I get this down, I'll worry about the drop.

Look at Federer's elbow and the position of his racket at 6 seconds into video. Also, see still photo a couple posts above. Federer's elbow is down, and his racket head is up above his right shoulder before he starts forward rotation.

Then, look at your elbow and racket head when you start forward. Your racket head never gets above your shoulder before you start forward resulting in low drop with a stiff arm kind of motion. You are pulling almost a straight arm up into contact. I think you will see a good example around 12 seconds into your last video where your arm is back and straight when you start forward and upward motion.

Try drilling abbreviated serve where you get elbow back away from body but low and bent with racket tip point up. Then toss and as you toss try to pass thru the Federer's trophy phase where racket head is above right shoulder as toss arm reaches full extension.

From trophy phase with bent elbow and racket head above shoulder, rotate inward with shoulder and use back shoulder over front shoulder motion. Shadow stroke a few to get some fluidity.

As your rotate forward and up with back shoulder, elbow goes up to at least shoulder high and right hand is pulled over the right shoulder joint where shoulder meets arm. Racket butt cap will point up toward contact as right hand is pulled over right shoulder joint.

Yes, you want it fluid, but I would try it half speed, very slowly accelerating until you get a good feel - think 1 to 5 acceleration with 5 being 50% effort. If you can get that elbow down, bent and allow racket head to go up above shoulder at trophy phase, I think it will help. If elbow is bent in trophy phase, then letting shoulder rotation pull the elbow up should let the racket drop.

 

[srimes]

Here is a video illustrating the problem: http://youtu.be/OLLjHAnw0JU . First I swing without a ball, then I toss a ball. You can clearly see that the motions are different. Also, the back is more or less straight the first time and slightly stretched to the left when I incorporate the ball. In match play, when I jump, the difference is even bigger.

Watch your video again, but look lower. Watch the hips and shoulders. In the first one you rotate your hips and then shoulders, and everything flows from there. In the second your body is tense and you arm it.

For me the light bulb turned on when I tried starting the service motion with my feet. Practice a smooth motion of pushing with your feet, rotating your hips, and then the shoulders. Feel how the motion flows smoothly and build speed. Now loosely hold a racket up in the trophy position like Roddick. Don't try to move your arm, just hold it there loosely, and start the lower body motion. As soon as your shoulders start to turn the racket will brush back and drop, and then whip forward. All with no conscious arm effort.

I only figured this out a few weeks ago, so I'm still working on putting it into practice. But my shoulder and elbow love it (used to hurt) and I'm hitting harder with very little effort. I haven't learned how to push it and really crank one, but I am easily hitting solid serves. I feel the power will build with more practice.

 

[stephan_58]

Watch your video again, but look lower. Watch the hips and shoulders. In the first one you rotate your hips and then shoulders, and everything flows from there. In the second your body is tense and you arm it.

For me the light bulb turned on when I tried starting the service motion with my feet. Practice a smooth motion of pushing with your feet, rotating your hips, and then the shoulders. Feel how the motion flows smoothly and build speed. Now loosely hold a racket up in the trophy position like Roddick. Don't try to move your arm, just hold it there loosely, and start the lower body motion. As soon as your shoulders start to turn the racket will brush back and drop, and then whip forward. All with no conscious arm effort.

I only figured this out a few weeks ago, so I'm still working on putting it into practice. But my shoulder and elbow love it (used to hurt) and I'm hitting harder with very little effort. I haven't learned how to push it and really crank one, but I am easily hitting solid serves. I feel the power will build with more practice.

Great suggestion emphasizing the flow of the motion. I will keep this mental image of starting with the legs and continuing with the hip/shoulders in mind next time I practice the serve. I can see what you mean clearly. Thanks a lot!

 

[JackB1]

Hey Stephan....I just wanted to appologize for slightly "butting into" this thread. I have a similar problem with getting the proper racquet drop. I hope you get your issues worked out...mine are very hard to change.

One exercise that some claim work, is to go to an open field and practice throwing your racquet staright up into the air. This is supposed to ingrain the proper upwards throwing motion. Best way to do this would be if it was near an actual court, so you could step into the court and try and replicate that same feeling with actual serves.

A similar drill is to hit serves and try and hit high up on the back fence on the fly. Teaches you to hit upward. Then you start aiming back down inside the court until you are aiming inside the box.

 

[stephan_58]

Hey Stephan....I just wanted to appologize for slightly "butting into" this thread. I have a similar problem with getting the proper racquet drop. I hope you get your issues worked out...mine are very hard to change.

One exercise that some claim work, is to go to an open field and practice throwing your racquet staright up into the air. This is supposed to ingrain the proper upwards throwing motion. Best way to do this would be if it was near an actual court, so you could step into the court and try and replicate that same feeling with actual serves.

A similar drill is to hit serves and try and hit high up on the back fence on the fly. Teaches you to hit upward. Then you start aiming back down inside the court until you are aiming inside the box.

No problem mate. I'm glad there's a ton of valuable info and some really good discussion in this thread. I didn't think that I'd learn so many new aspects on the racket drop to be honest... What's really hard is to work it into your serving motion though. It just needs time and dedication... A few days ago I filmed myself throwing some tennis balls in an upwards direction, just to see if it resembles my serve. Not really... So I guess that's where the problem lies. I'll film the throw again in slow mo to clearly be able to see if it's a good, fluid motion with a working kinetic chain. If so, I guess it's best if I just try hard to get that same feeling when I'm serving with a racket. Will be a long process but I hope it will be worth it in the end.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Will be a long process but I hope it will be worth it in the end.

Stick with it, and it will be worth it in the end. Good luck!

 

[directionals]

Here's Fed from another angle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKXtVQnqhB4. Try to copy the first 11 seconds of this video. There's no hitch. See the right-to-left arm movement from 6s to 10s? That's the "comb the hair" PowerPlayer is talking about. Florian's serve videos are really good but unfortunately they've probably been made private on youtube.

 

[Power Player]

Here's Fed from another angle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKXtVQnqhB4. Try to copy the first 11 seconds of this video. There's no hitch. See the right-to-left arm movement from 6s to 10s? That's the "comb the hair" PowerPlayer is talking about. Florian's serve videos are really good but unfortunately they've probably been made private on youtube.

Yes I think they have. Good vid you found though. It is tough to explain that movement, but practicing it has fixed my racquet drop and serve in general.

I combined that with the 11-5 rafter concept and those 2 concepts really helped me out in matchplay.

 

[mbm0912]

This is a good thread. I'm reading and following links from you guys to help with my racquet drop and throwing motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52c7yU0AMA

 

[Fintft]

Hey Stephan....I just wanted to appologize for slightly "butting into" this thread. I have a similar problem with getting the proper racquet drop. I hope you get your issues worked out...mine are very hard to change.

One exercise that some claim work, is to go to an open field and practice throwing your racquet staright up into the air. This is supposed to ingrain the proper upwards throwing motion. Best way to do this would be if it was near an actual court, so you could step into the court and try and replicate that same feeling with actual serves.

A similar drill is to hit serves and try and hit high up on the back fence on the fly. Teaches you to hit upward. Then you start aiming back down inside the court until you are aiming inside the box.

As I often forget how important throwing is, last week, I've remembered to focus on it again and my serve got so much better in a couple of days...
The best part is the efortless power.

 

[Fintft]

Watch your video again, but look lower. Watch the hips and shoulders. In the first one you rotate your hips and then shoulders, and everything flows from there. In the second your body is tense and you arm it.

For me the light bulb turned on when I tried starting the service motion with my feet. Practice a smooth motion of pushing with your feet, rotating your hips, and then the shoulders. Feel how the motion flows smoothly and build speed. Now loosely hold a racket up in the trophy position like Roddick. Don't try to move your arm, just hold it there loosely, and start the lower body motion. As soon as your shoulders start to turn the racket will brush back and drop, and then whip forward. All with no conscious arm effort.

I only figured this out a few weeks ago, so I'm still working on putting it into practice. But my shoulder and elbow love it (used to hurt) and I'm hitting harder with very little effort. I haven't learned how to push it and really crank one, but I am easily hitting solid serves. I feel the power will build with more practice.

Something very similar happen to me also last week, when the coach suggested that I should start bending the knees, right after I start my throwing motion, in order to be able to turn better (and later push with my feet etc as you describe).

Then on my own I decided to also incorporate more of the throwing up motion with the racket and everything flows together much better than in the past versions of my serve.

 

[stephan_58]

I'm not sure how relevant the following is to this thread but I thought, before I open a new thread I could ask in here. I think it's somewhat connected to the racket drop.

Can anybody explain to me what the differences in the two swing lines are that McCraw is showing in this video? One of them is supposed to be correct but I'm having a hard time distinguishing them. It looks like in the "correct" way, his palm is facing down during his take back, while in the other form, it's rather open. Is that what's it's all about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs

Thanks

 

[JackB1]

I'm not sure how relevant the following is to this thread but I thought, before I open a new thread I could ask in here. I think it's somewhat connected to the racket drop.

Can anybody explain to me what the differences in the two swing lines are that McCraw is showing in this video? One of them is supposed to be correct but I'm having a hard time distinguishing them. It looks like in the "correct" way, his palm is facing down during his take back, while in the other form, it's rather open. Is that what's it's all about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs

Thanks

haven't seen the video yet, but I do know that's it's more desirable to keep the palm facing down during the takeback.

 

[stephan_58]

haven't seen the video yet, but I do know that's it's more desirable to keep the palm facing down during the takeback.

Yes I know but I think he's talking about the swingline of the racket rather than the direction of his palm. That's why I'm a little confused...

 

[Chas Tennis]

This is Federer second serve. Images copied from tennisplayer.net video.
....................................................................................
.....................................................................

I don't clearly see yet what is intended in the McGraw video. What is the trajectory of the serve that he is simulating?

See the angle between Federer's racket head tip (red dots) and the ball's trajectory. Imagine this angle as viewed from above.

An additional question is what is meant by 'swing path' and how does that relate to the path of the hand and the ball's trajectory. I used to think that the racket and hand moved more in line with the ball's trajectory. That's not true. It may be somewhat true over a few milliseconds at impact for the string face but these longer racket tracks of a point on the racket head tip are not in line with the ball's trajectory and might need some other interpretations.

This Toly composite picture shows the angle between the racket, the hand and the ball's trajectory as viewed from above. Original videos taken from above are from FYB.

....................................................................................................:
..................................................................................................

Note the steady path of the hand in comparison to the racket face. Unfortunately, the ball trajectories for these 3 serves are not shown.

The paths of
1) a point on the tip of the racket,
2) the hand's path and
3) the velocity of the center of the racket strings

are all very different.

The varying velocity of the racket strings during the 2-4 millisecond of impact are what determines the ball's trajectory and spin. A video at 240 fps captures just one frame every 4 milliseconds so this frame rate is too slow to observe racket string face-ball impacts.

Most videos, including high speed videos, have slow shutters with resulting motion blur and are at camera viewing angles - unlike the above view - where what is happening is ambiguous. Interpreting blurs especially from lower frame rate videos can be very misleading and has been misleading most people since the beginning.

 

[JackB1]

I'm not sure how relevant the following is to this thread but I thought, before I open a new thread I could ask in here. I think it's somewhat connected to the racket drop.

Can anybody explain to me what the differences in the two swing lines are that McCraw is showing in this video? One of them is supposed to be correct but I'm having a hard time distinguishing them. It looks like in the "correct" way, his palm is facing down during his take back, while in the other form, it's rather open. Is that what's it's all about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs

Thanks

He is talking about an outside (out to in) takeback as opposed to a inside (in to out) takeback. He is saying that if you pull the racquet too inside on the takeback, it's harder to correct things after that point. I think this is important, but the takeback doesn't matter as long as you get to the proper trophy position. He is saying an outside takeback makes it easier to get there. But there are plenty of Pro's that seem to take the racquet inside on the takeback, but the majority do take it outside or straight back without pulling it inside too quickly.

 

[Muppet]

I think it's just a matter of coordinating your ball toss with your stroke and practicing the full stroke. When you trust that the racquet will meet the ball, you won't need to make linear adjustments to your stroke to time it with the ball.

 

[stephan_58]

He is talking about an outside (out to in) takeback as opposed to a inside (in to out) takeback. He is saying that if you pull the racquet too inside on the takeback, it's harder to correct things after that point. I think this is important, but the takeback doesn't matter as long as you get to the proper trophy position. He is saying an outside takeback makes it easier to get there. But there are plenty of Pro's that seem to take the racquet inside on the takeback, but the majority do take it outside or straight back without pulling it inside too quickly.

Thanks for the explanation. What I don't understand is what's meant by outside and inside in this context? Is it the distance from the racket to the body? So inside is close to the body and outside is away from it? Sorry for all the questions, sometimes I'm a little slow ;-)

Oh and, what kind of take back to I have in the video from the first post?

 

[JackB1]

Thanks for the explanation. What I don't understand is what's meant by outside and inside in this context? Is it the distance from the racket to the body? So inside is close to the body and outside is away from it? Sorry for all the questions, sometimes I'm a little slow ;-)

Oh and, what kind of take back to I have in the video from the first post?

It's the direction the racquet is going on the takeback...not the distance from your body. If you are righty and serving, from the starting position, take the racquet back.....if you take it staright back towards the back fence, that would be neutral. If you take it back towards your right shoulder, that would be "inside". If you take it back towards the right corner fence, that would be "outside".

The key is to not yank it inside on the takeback, which puts your elbow in a bad position. I think the best thing is to get into proper "trophy position" and then work backwards and find the most natural way to get there from the start.

Edit: just rewatched the video in the 1st post and your takeback looks fine. You almost take it straight back...you come just slightly inside, but I think it's fine and no need to worry about that part of the motion. I think your probelm is that your palm starts back in a nice "palm down" position, but you too quickly start opening it up and turn the palm up too soon. You also have your back elbow too low and close to your body. Evrything else looks pretty good IMO. You get a decent racquet drop, depthwise. Just work on getting the back elbow up and out, away from the body more. Watch Jeff Salzenstein's video called "Serve - Elbowing the enemy".

 

[Power Player]

Yeah the stuff I was talking about earlier in the thread encourages the outside take back. If you take it back palm down, your elbow should end up away from your body. The drill in the video I can't find starts there so you can feel the motion of dropping the racquet behind your head using the reverse combing motion and then swinging to contact very loosely.

From there you simply incorporate your starting stance and practice until it feels consistent.

 

[JackB1]

I wish someone could locate this video that PP keeps referencing. I think if we could actually see it, it would help immensely.

 

[psv255]

Yeah the stuff I was talking about earlier in the thread encourages the outside take back. If you take it back palm down, your elbow should end up away from your body. The drill in the video I can't find starts there so you can feel the motion of dropping the racquet behind your head using the reverse combing motion and then swinging to contact very loosely.

From there you simply incorporate your starting stance and practice until it feels consistent.

I wish someone could locate this video that PP keeps referencing. I think if we could actually see it, it would help immensely.

EDIT: Found the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM2uuwUBfxQ
This is also very similar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYMK9nMp_1U&feature=player_detailpage#t=180

 

[Chas Tennis]

See Online TennisLesson Youtube in the above reply.

These FYB Frank Salazar videos from above (high speed videos from above are rare) show the degree of racket-over-the-head for those particular serves.

Slice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgQWotcPYE

Kick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wed-TWRhXs

Flat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a9X_eTdg8I

 

[stephan_58]

It's the direction the racquet is going on the takeback...not the distance from your body. If you are righty and serving, from the starting position, take the racquet back.....if you take it staright back towards the back fence, that would be neutral. If you take it back towards your right shoulder, that would be "inside". If you take it back towards the right corner fence, that would be "outside".

The key is to not yank it inside on the takeback, which puts your elbow in a bad position. I think the best thing is to get into proper "trophy position" and then work backwards and find the most natural way to get there from the start.

Edit: just rewatched the video in the 1st post and your takeback looks fine. You almost take it straight back...you come just slightly inside, but I think it's fine and no need to worry about that part of the motion. I think your probelm is that your palm starts back in a nice "palm down" position, but you too quickly start opening it up and turn the palm up too soon. You also have your back elbow too low and close to your body. Evrything else looks pretty good IMO. You get a decent racquet drop, depthwise. Just work on getting the back elbow up and out, away from the body more. Watch Jeff Salzenstein's video called "Serve - Elbowing the enemy".

Thanks for the clarification, I think I got it now. I guess I should focus on other things since my takeback seems to be alright.

So I went out to throw some old racket around (people were looking at me slightly confused and amused at times...). I was also filming to see what my motion looked like. It's interesting to see that in the beginning, my motion kind of looked like my real serve, just without a ball. But as I got looser and tried to imagine the racket being a ball, the motion started to get better as well. (I think I have pretty sound throwing mechanics) So after a couple of tries, this is what it looked like from behind:

http://youtu.be/Kplx1_xuzEk

I think if I can get used to this throwing motion and work it into my real serve, it should be quite a fine serve. The racket drop looks a lot more natural this way and I think I'm arming the serve a lot less.

 

[JackB1]

How do u do the slow no?

 

[sabala]

Filmed my serve recently and saw I don't have much racket drop either.

I try to imagine hitting up at the ball with my elbow to work on racket drop. It helps me with the feel I need to lead with the elbow as I swing up into contact. Gotta stay nice & loose too -

 

[Topspin Shot]

Thanks for the clarification, I think I got it now. I guess I should focus on other things since my takeback seems to be alright.

So I went out to throw some old racket around (people were looking at me slightly confused and amused at times...). I was also filming to see what my motion looked like. It's interesting to see that in the beginning, my motion kind of looked like my real serve, just without a ball. But as I got looser and tried to imagine the racket being a ball, the motion started to get better as well. (I think I have pretty sound throwing mechanics) So after a couple of tries, this is what it looked like from behind:

http://youtu.be/Kplx1_xuzEk

I think if I can get used to this throwing motion and work it into my real serve, it should be quite a fine serve. The racket drop looks a lot more natural this way and I think I'm arming the serve a lot less.

In this video, you have the correct racket drop. For a second serve, you might want to throw the racket on a steeper angle, but you've got the right feeling, which in itself is huge. Now, to translate that feeling to actually hitting the ball. My tips for hitting a proper serve are to (1) spin the ball with topspin and slice (2) hit up at a steep angle and (3) in the follow through, keep the racket to the right of your body until the racket has reached its lowest point, at which point you can bring it around to the left. First practice hitting balls into the open field at full pace, then lob serves with the correct form into the box, and finally try to hit a real serve. And I hope that wasn't your match racket!

 

[Power Player]

I think there was another video going into more detail that he took down, but this is very similar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYMK9nMp_1U&feature=player_detailpage#t=180
EDIT: Found the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM2uuwUBfxQ

Yes thats it. Great find. The drill im referencing starts at 3:20

 

[Fintft]

Sigh, I forgot to throw my racket up properly last night; have to practice again...

 

[stephan_58]

How do u do the slow no?

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_Camera/IXUS/IXUS_510_HS/

You can shoot in 240 fps slow mo with this thing. Quality is pretty bad but for tennis it's great.

In this video, you have the correct racket drop. For a second serve, you might want to throw the racket on a steeper angle, but you've got the right feeling, which in itself is huge. Now, to translate that feeling to actually hitting the ball. My tips for hitting a proper serve are to (1) spin the ball with topspin and slice (2) hit up at a steep angle and (3) in the follow through, keep the racket to the right of your body until the racket has reached its lowest point, at which point you can bring it around to the left. First practice hitting balls into the open field at full pace, then lob serves with the correct form into the box, and finally try to hit a real serve. And I hope that wasn't your match racket!

Thanks for the tips. I think if I repeat this thrill regularly (which is key IMO) until I "get" the feeling, I should be able to change my motion.

I will follow your advice the next I'm on the court.

No it wasn't my match racket of course, it's an old Prestige that I don't use anymore.

 

[Topspin Shot]

No it wasn't my match racket of course, it's an old Prestige that I don't use anymore.

You're throwing a Prestige?! Do you realize how many TTers would be prepared to give you their life savings for an old Prestige? :wink:

 

[Power Player]

Stephan. Check out my last post and watch that vid. I feel like it may help a lot. Let us know if it does. Maybe it just worked for me and I'm unique..lol.

 

[JackB1]

Stephan. Check out my last post and watch that vid. I feel like it may help a lot. Let us know if it does. Maybe it just worked for me and I'm unique..lol.

Problem is the video doesn't offer much help in the way of what exactly to do. He holds the racquet up at shoulder level with the tip pointing to the right fence and he tells you to "toss and hit with a fuid motion". Just starting from this position isn't going to magically fix your serve from that point on. You need a Pro to see what you are doing while you attempt this manuever.

It's a good drill and it may work if you have minor issues, but won't help to reconstruct a serve that's not already pretty close to correct.

My main problem seems to be connecting the back and forwared motion of the serve. That is the transitional part where you are either "fluid" or have a stop or "hitch".
What is the movement to key on where the racquet goes through that breif transition of back to forward? In watching Federer's slowmo, it seems to be when the racquet face starts
to open towards the sky.

 

[Power Player]

He tells you a lot more than that. He stresses the right to left motion which is key to the racquet drop (OP's issue). There is no possible way you watched that video and just took away that he wants you to toss and hit with a full motion. He literally goes through the entire process of the serve and shows how to get a proper racquet drop and fluid motion.

 

[JackB1]

He tells you a lot more than that. He stresses the right to left motion which is key to the racquet drop (OP's issue). There is no possible way you watched that video and just took away that he wants you to toss and hit with a full motion. He literally goes through the entire process of the serve and shows how to get a proper racquet drop and fluid motion.

not full motion..."fluid" motion.

yes he does a good job of showing you what to do, but there's more to it than just trying to copy what he's doing. I will see if I can video myself doing these drills so maybe you guys can see what I am doing wrong.

 

[Power Player]

There are drills in there. He is showing you drills to try. Its not about copying what he is doing, it is about trying those drills to see if they can fix a racquet drop issue.

Notice there is no trophy pose for him. He does not start in a trophy pose, he starts with the racquet out so you feel that in-to-out take back once you incorporate the full motion.

 

[JackB1]

There are drills in there. He is showing you drills to try. Its not about copying what he is doing, it is about trying those drills to see if they can fix a racquet drop issue.

Notice there is no trophy pose for him. He does not start in a trophy pose, he starts with the racquet out so you feel that in-to-out take back once you incorporate the full motion.

got it.

I'll try em and post video soon

 

[stephan_58]

You're throwing a Prestige?! Do you realize how many TTers would be prepared to give you their life savings for an old Prestige? :wink:

Haha I wasn't aware of that. Well, the Prestige is still intact so if anyone wants to make a good offer... :twisted:

Stephan. Check out my last post and watch that vid. I feel like it may help a lot. Let us know if it does. Maybe it just worked for me and I'm unique..lol.

I kinda forgot about checking out the video. It's indeed a helpful one and I finally get your post on page 1 (sorry, but it's pretty hard to visualize this if you don't see someone doing it ;-) ). I've never seen this right to left motion explained like this before but it makes a lot of sense. I kinda wish someone would've told me this before lol... I will report once I can do Florian's drill (might not hit the court until next week unfortunately).

Thanks to psv255 for finding the video!

 

[MurrayMyInspiration]

Haha I wasn't aware of that. Well, the Prestige is still intact so if anyone wants to make a good offer... :twisted:



I kinda forgot about checking out the video. It's indeed a helpful one and I finally get your post on page 1 (sorry, but it's pretty hard to visualize this if you don't see someone doing it ;-) ). I've never seen this right to left motion explained like this before but it makes a lot of sense. I kinda wish someone would've told me this before lol... I will report once I can do Florian's drill (might not hit the court until next week unfortunately).

Thanks to psv255 for finding the video!

WOW stephan post in the racquest classifies section you will get serious buck fo it. no joke.