Incorrect racket drop - How to relearn? (muscle memory)

[stephan_58]

So I've struggled with this for a long time. Ever since I learnt how to serve with a continental grip, my racket drop has been too much to the center of my back (taking the term "back scratch" too literally). The problem is that because of this, I slice a lot (because of the racket path from left to right) and, even worse, I suspect it's the reason for some lower back issues I've been having for a while (makes me fall to the left and kind of stretch my back).

This has been pointed out by TW-users before. The problem is, even though I know this is a big issue in my service motion, I can't fix it. When I shadow swing without a ball, the racket drop is much better, but as soon as I include the ball toss and concentrate on hitting it, I fall back to my old habit. I can shadow swing correctly 20 times in a row, when I toss a ball the 21st time, I'm back to square one. I've always thought that with enough shadow swinging of the correct motion, the problem should vanish automatically, but I can't seem to make progress with this.

Are there any good drills that I could try? Has anyone else had the same problem with the racket drop/back scratch position and corrected it successfully? I feel like I can't make any progress in this area. I've watched tons of videos of pros and a lot of instructional videos. They help but it seems muscle memory is in the way of real progress. I do know what it's supposed to look like...

Here is a video illustrating the problem: http://youtu.be/OLLjHAnw0JU . First I swing without a ball, then I toss a ball. You can clearly see that the motions are different. Also, the back is more or less straight the first time and slightly stretched to the left when I incorporate the ball. In match play, when I jump, the difference is even bigger.

 

[TennisProdigy]

Like you I also struggle with my serve, but your serve is much better than mine haha.

I had a bad hitch in my serve and my muscle memory kept messing me up.

This vid helped me quite a bit, take a look and follow these tips if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um5q7Lx107k

 

[tennis_balla]

Your left arm drops too much and too early, pulling you towards that side. Most likely the cause of your slice.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

You might try changing the method used for your racket head drop. You are using an older/simpler approach to the drop by flexing your arm. You decrease the amount of elbow flexion from ~90 degrees at the trophy position to about 45 degrees for the drop. Currently, most elite servers do not decrease the elbow bend angle much, if at all. For the most part, they maintain the 90 degree angle on the drop. Instead of using the extra measure of elbow flexion, they use an extra helping of external shoulder rotation (ESR) instead. See if you can drive your right shoulder and chest upward more and rotate the shoulder (externally) without decreasing the amount of bend in your elbow. Here is an image of RF with that extra ESR I am talking about.

 

[Topspin Shot]

IMO, your body is doing what your body wants to do because you're not putting your body in the correct position to get the correct racket drop.

In essence, there are two ways to get the racket to fall on the right side of your body. The first is to open your hips more. Square your body up, so that your chest is facing your target at contact, kind of like you're a baseball pitcher. The good news is that you'll get a more fluid motion as well as the correct racket drop. The bad news is that you'll have trouble getting the topspin and angle necessary to get the serve to go in consistently.

The second way to get the right racket drop is to hit up on a steeper angle. Watch the video on Youtube called something like "serve up the mountain." Feel like you're going to hit your serve into the sky. Just make sure you're doing two things so your serve doesn't go into the sky. One: make sure you're spinning the ball, not hitting it flat. Two: make sure your follow through remains to the right of the ball's flight path until the ball bounces in the box. These two things together should get you a powerful and consistent serve with a good racket drop.

Note: follow the second method, not the first. The first was just an example illustrating how your body works. You will not get a good serve doing it this way.

 

[stephan_58]

Like you I also struggle with my serve, but your serve is much better than mine haha.

I had a bad hitch in my serve and my muscle memory kept messing me up.

This vid helped me quite a bit, take a look and follow these tips if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um5q7Lx107k

That's an excellent video. I have watched it before but didn't remember most of it. He makes some very good points, especially when he says that as soon as you step to the baseline, old habits creep back in. That's why in my video I stand towards the fence too. I know that when I'm serving from the baseline, I'm too results-oriented.

Your left arm drops too much and too early, pulling you towards that side. Most likely the cause of your slice.

I noticed that as well, but I only do it when I'm shadow swinging, so I don't think it's responsible for the slice.

You might try changing the method used for your racket head drop. You are using an older/simpler approach to the drop by flexing your arm. You decrease the amount of elbow flexion from ~90 degrees at the trophy position to about 45 degrees for the drop. Currently, most elite servers do not decrease the elbow bend angle much, if at all. For the most part, they maintain the 90 degree angle on the drop. Instead of using the extra measure of elbow flexion, they use an extra helping of external shoulder rotation (ESR) instead. See if you can drive your right shoulder and chest upward more and rotate the shoulder (externally) without decreasing the amount of bend in your elbow. Here is an image of RF with that extra ESR I am talking about.

Good point. I was wondering why the racket is so close to the body during the racket drop while shadow swinging, I guess this is why. I'll pay attention to it. It's better in the actual serve with a ball though, don't you think?

IMO, your body is doing what your body wants to do because you're not putting your body in the correct position to get the correct racket drop.

In essence, there are two ways to get the racket to fall on the right side of your body. The first is to open your hips more. Square your body up, so that your chest is facing your target at contact, kind of like you're a baseball pitcher. The good news is that you'll get a more fluid motion as well as the correct racket drop. The bad news is that you'll have trouble getting the topspin and angle necessary to get the serve to go in consistently.

The second way to get the right racket drop is to hit up on a steeper angle. Watch the video on Youtube called something like "serve up the mountain." Feel like you're going to hit your serve into the sky. Just make sure you're doing two things so your serve doesn't go into the sky. One: make sure you're spinning the ball, not hitting it flat. Two: make sure your follow through remains to the right of the ball's flight path until the ball bounces in the box. These two things together should get you a powerful and consistent serve with a good racket drop.

Note: follow the second method, not the first. The first was just an example illustrating how your body works. You will not get a good serve doing it this way.

I know the concept of swinging "up the mountain" (it's by the same coach as in the video TennisProdigy posted, he's excellent and has helped me a ton) and I contantly try to remind myself of doing it. I just don't feel like the racket drop issue gets better doing just that. The mechanics are still wrong somehow.

I guess my problem is mostly "overwriting muscle memory", so to speak. What I'd like to do is "replacing" my old service motion with my shadow swing, but I guess that's not something you can do overnight or even in a few weeks... What's frustrating is that the body sometimes has its own brain somehow.

 

[Nellie]

Why don't you try not bypassing dropping the racket and use an abbreviated motion.

 

[Mrnoital]

The great thing for you is there is no such thing as muscle memory. It's your real memory that is the problem. You'll get it. just takes time and practice.

 

[Power Player]

That's an excellent video. I have watched it before but didn't remember most of it. He makes some very good points, especially when he says that as soon as you step to the baseline, old habits creep back in. That's why in my video I stand towards the fence too. I know that when I'm serving from the baseline, I'm too results-oriented.



I noticed that as well, but I only do it when I'm shadow swinging, so I don't think it's responsible for the slice.



Good point. I was wondering why the racket is so close to the body during the racket drop while shadow swinging, I guess this is why. I'll pay attention to it. It's better in the actual serve with a ball though, don't you think?



I know the concept of swinging "up the mountain" (it's by the same coach as in the video TennisProdigy posted, he's excellent and has helped me a ton) and I contantly try to remind myself of doing it. I just don't feel like the racket drop issue gets better doing just that. The mechanics are still wrong somehow.

I guess my problem is mostly "overwriting muscle memory", so to speak. What I'd like to do is "replacing" my old service motion with my shadow swing, but I guess that's not something you can do overnight or even in a few weeks... What's frustrating is that the body sometimes has its own brain somehow.

I know that issue. Here is the fix :

Abbreviate your takeback like Federer. When you pull the racwrt back it should be going out towards the side fence and above your head with your racquet hand level or close to above your head. (this is the hardest part to describe).

Stop there.

Now start your practice in that position. Bring the racquet back so it is coming over your head like you are combing your hair back with the racquet face (keep it higher than that of course - like a foot of clearance or so should feel normal), Let the racquet fall back and it will be in the right position (alongside your body, without you having to think about it at all). All you do now is whip the racquet up to the ball.

There is a video that perfectly illustrates this drill and of course I can not fine it, but it is by Florian Mayer. I can almost guarantee it will fix your issue.

 

[JackB1]

check my thread on this very topic:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=472647&referrerid=59371

It's very difficult to get this if it doesn't come naturally.
I still struggle to this day, but here are some things that helped me somewhat:
-stay REALLY loose on serve. REALLY loose
-let the racquet drop as you push upward with your chest facing the sky, as you go upwards after the ball
-get the back elbow out and away from your body

practice this in steps. Serve with the racquet already in the drop position. Then start with it back behind your head and drop it back and serve. It takes a loooong time to get this right...there is no magical quick fix, regardless of what others may say.

 

[Power Player]

Its pointless to start with the racquet in a drop position for this issue.

The reason is because the racquet drop is a result of the prior motions. You have to have the take back correct to fix the racquet drop and have a hitch free motion. That's probably why it take some people so loooooong to figure this out.

 

[psv255]

Its pointless to start with the racquet in a drop position for this issue.

The reason is because the racquet drop is a result of the prior motions. You have to have the take back correct to fix the racquet drop and have a hitch free motion. That's probably why it take some people so loooooong to figure this out.

+1 on this. The reason there's even a racquet drop in the serve is to more quickly catapult the racquet up and forward. The quick, whiplike change in direction of the racquet during the drop is a byproduct of a good setup, loose arm, and leading the upward swing with the elbow.

 

[JackB1]

+1 on this. The reason there's even a racquet drop in the serve is to more quickly catapult the racquet up and forward. The quick, whiplike change in direction of the racquet during the drop is a byproduct of a good setup, loose arm, and leading the upward swing with the elbow.

I understand all that, but you have to sometimes practice in steps or stages and then piece it all together. Just like you can practice groundstrokes with the racquet already all the way back.

 

[Power Player]

+1 on this. The reason there's even a racquet drop in the serve is to more quickly catapult the racquet up and forward. The quick, whiplike change in direction of the racquet during the drop is a byproduct of a good setup, loose arm, and leading the upward swing with the elbow.

Exactly right. A lot of people break the serve down too much and as a result have no fluidity and also over think the process.

 

[psv255]

I understand all that, but you have to sometimes practice in steps or stages and then piece it all together.

Yes, for sure. But how you break up your steps plays a huge role. You wouldn't practice a forehand separating the swing up to and after contact, would you? The racquet drop is very similar in that you can't really break it up.

Just like you can practice groundstrokes with the racquet already all the way back.

Unfortunately, this analogy doesn't work. You can break up what happens before and after the racquet drop much more easily/effectively than the drop itself, because the racquet drop isn't a forced movement, it's a recoil movement. You can get away with not having a fluid groundstroke takeback and still hit a solid shot, but if you want a working racquet drop, it has to be fluid and uninterrupted, even in practice. You will have to start with the racquet pointing up, pull it behind you using your legs and torso, and let it release. The best way to describe it feel-wise is that the racquet and elbow switch places.

 

[JackB1]

Yes, for sure. But how you break up your steps plays a huge role. You wouldn't practice a forehand separating the swing up to and after contact, would you? The racquet drop is very similar in that you can't really break it up.

Unfortunately, this analogy doesn't work. You can break up what happens before and after the racquet drop much more easily/effectively than the drop itself, because the racquet drop isn't a forced movement, it's a recoil movement. You can get away with not having a fluid groundstroke takeback and still hit a solid shot, but if you want a working racquet drop, it has to be fluid and uninterrupted, even in practice. You will have to start with the racquet pointing up, pull it behind you using your legs and torso, and let it release. The best way to describe it feel-wise is that the racquet and elbow switch places.

I see what you are saying. Since the racquet drop is a result of a prior movement, it doesn't make sense to start in a fixed position like that. I only suggested it because a local Pro suggested this as a drill. I think a more useful drill is to start with the racquet back and then go from there to the drop, like I have seen in many drills posted here before.

 

[Power Player]

This is why it takes so long to learn the serve. People are taught flawed things, even by pros. If you do drills that teach you the fluidity of the serve and how you naturally will drop the racquet right as a result, it drastically speeds up the process.

 

[psv255]

I see what you are saying. Since the racquet drop is a result of a prior movement, it doesn't make sense to start in a fixed position like that. I only suggested it because a local Pro suggested this as a drill. I think a more useful drill is to start with the racquet back and then go from there to the drop, like I have seen in many drills posted here before.

Yeah, seems like it.
Keep at it Jack, it's worth it. If you get it down, a more fluid drop can surely get you to 4.0 with the improved consistency and heaviness of your serve.

 

[stephan_58]

I know that issue. Here is the fix :

Abbreviate your takeback like Federer. When you pull the racwrt back it should be going out towards the side fence and above your head with your racquet hand level or close to above your head. (this is the hardest part to describe).

Stop there.

Now start your practice in that position. Bring the racquet back so it is coming over your head like you are combing your hair back with the racquet face (keep it higher than that of course - like a foot of clearance or so should feel normal), Let the racquet fall back and it will be in the right position (alongside your body, without you having to think about it at all). All you do now is whip the racquet up to the ball.

There is a video that perfectly illustrates this drill and of course I can not fine it, but it is by Florian Mayer. I can almost guarantee it will fix your issue.

Do you mean this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qkfiqvpxCk This drill sounds helpful but I'm not sure it helps with my racket drop problem.

I'm having trouble understanding the first part of your post. Does Federer really have an abbreviated takeback? I always thought Roddick and Monfils were players with an abbreviated motion, not Fed. When exactly does the racket go "towards the side fence"? I can't quite visualize this.

 

[stephan_58]

This is why it takes so long to learn the serve. People are taught flawed things, even by pros. If you do drills that teach you the fluidity of the serve and how you naturally will drop the racquet right as a result, it drastically speeds up the process.

That's what I think too. My motion is the result of self-teaching, bad coaching and then repetition of bad habits. Having done this for years, I find it very hard to break the habits. I wish I could just start over learning the serve from scratch but it isn't quite that easy unfortunately.

 

[stephan_58]

check my thread on this very topic:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=472647&referrerid=59371

It's very difficult to get this if it doesn't come naturally.
I still struggle to this day, but here are some things that helped me somewhat:
-stay REALLY loose on serve. REALLY loose
-let the racquet drop as you push upward with your chest facing the sky, as you go upwards after the ball
-get the back elbow out and away from your body

practice this in steps. Serve with the racquet already in the drop position. Then start with it back behind your head and drop it back and serve. It takes a loooong time to get this right...there is no magical quick fix, regardless of what others may say.

Good tips, thanks. You seem to have a decent serve for not having a racket drop at all.

 

[GuyClinch]

What did you think of Tomaz videos on this?

http://www.feeltennis.net/improve-tennis-serve/

I am a fan of this guy lately. His idea that a loose wrist is necessary for a good racquet drop seems true. Obviously it won't be as good as someone who also has a flexibile shoulder as well..but it could help you.

 

[Power Player]

Do you mean this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qkfiqvpxCk This drill sounds helpful but I'm not sure it helps with my racket drop problem.

I'm having trouble understanding the first part of your post. Does Federer really have an abbreviated takeback? I always thought Roddick and Monfils were players with an abbreviated motion, not Fed. When exactly does the racket go "towards the side fence"? I can't quite visualize this.

No, He has another video on what I am talking about.

From the start position, if your elbow is in close to your body, simply move it out and away from there.

Are you dropping the racquet towards the ground now and on the takeback? That is the classic service motion.

If I can find the video, I will post it. It will make a lot of sense when you see it in action.

 

[JackB1]

Good tips, thanks. You seem to have a decent serve for not having a racket drop at all.

Thanks. It does drop a little, but not nearly enough. I have tried every recommended drill and exercise and I think it's just a physical limitation I have? Maybe my shoulder isn't flexible enough? I still have one of the most consistent serves at my level and very rarely get broken. I place it very well...move it around and change speed and spins.

 

[JackB1]

That's what I think too. My motion is the result of self-teaching, bad coaching and then repetition of bad habits. Having done this for years, I find it very hard to break the habits. I wish I could just start over learning the serve from scratch but it isn't quite that easy unfortunately.

I know exactly what you mean. People will post things like "just get your elbow up and rotate the shoulder, etc. and they think those words will magically fix your serve. I play at the 3.5 and 4.0 level and I very rarely see someone who has a perfect serving motion. Most of them are very flawed, but they make them work somehow. It is a very difficult stroke because there are so many moving parts to coordinate together and one bad part of that chain affects everything.

In tennis, it doesn't matter how you look doing it. Only thing that matters is getting that ball over the net one more time than your opponent. There are no points for style.

 

[Power Player]

I don't know anyone who says those things and thinks fixes will magically happen.

There are drills that will help to develop a proper serve. Its not about a flexible shoulder. The racquet drop naturally happens properly if you do the prior motions correctly.

 

[JohnB]

Like others have said, racketdrop is a result of prior movements. You shoudn't PUT your racket there, but it should go down there naturally. Also in your video, the real serve looks different and better, because your actually hitting a ball and your instinct takes over. There you have a much better throwing motion and less hitch than in the first part without a ball. If you ever have watched a slowmo of Roddick serving, you'll notice that his elbow angle is more or less 90 degrees and his rackethead is not scratching his back, but there is plenty room in between.

I think if your concentrating on throwing upward during a real serve (like annother poster pointed out) you'll be better of than shadowswinging and overthinking.

 

[stephan_58]

What did you think of Tomaz videos on this?

http://www.feeltennis.net/improve-tennis-serve/

I am a fan of this guy lately. His idea that a loose wrist is necessary for a good racquet drop seems true. Obviously it won't be as good as someone who also has a flexibile shoulder as well..but it could help you.

I know most of his videos. I think he's excellent and has some very good and sometimes unorthodox ideas. I just stumbled across a video where he's talking about the racket drop and how to get a feel for the correct movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJJ_BWBQcI

I will definitely try this "dangling" or whatever he calls it. He has another video that I really like. It's similar to the one from Florian Meier that I posted before, but Tomaz makes some great comparisons to other sports:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTRPN_LyiXw

Interesting stuff.

Like others have said, racketdrop is a result of prior movements. You shoudn't PUT your racket there, but it should go down there naturally. Also in your video, the real serve looks different and better, because your actually hitting a ball and your instinct takes over. There you have a much better throwing motion and less hitch than in the first part without a ball. If you ever have watched a slowmo of Roddick serving, you'll notice that his elbow angle is more or less 90 degrees and his rackethead is not scratching his back, but there is plenty room in between.

I think if your concentrating on throwing upward during a real serve (like annother poster pointed out) you'll be better of than shadowswinging and overthinking.

Intresting that you're saying you like the movement with the ball better. Maybe it's indeed more natural and closer to the throwing-motion.

Unfortunately the outdoor-season is over and i can't invest that much time in improving my tennis anymore, but I will try to keep on doing some drills on the serve and see where they'll lead me. Thanks guys.

 

[JackB1]

I don't know anyone who says those things and thinks fixes will magically happen.

There are drills that will help to develop a proper serve. Its not about a flexible shoulder. The racquet drop naturally happens properly if you do the prior motions correctly.

What exactly are those prior motions that will lead to a proper racquet drop?

 

[JackB1]

Like others have said, racketdrop is a result of prior movements. You shoudn't PUT your racket there, but it should go down there naturally. Also in your video, the real serve looks different and better, because your actually hitting a ball and your instinct takes over. There you have a much better throwing motion and less hitch than in the first part without a ball. If you ever have watched a slowmo of Roddick serving, you'll notice that his elbow angle is more or less 90 degrees and his rackethead is not scratching his back, but there is plenty room in between.

I think if your concentrating on throwing upward during a real serve (like annother poster pointed out) you'll be better of than shadowswinging and overthinking.

So what is the integral part of the serve between the trophy pose and the racquet drop that I seem to be missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

 

[JackB1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJJ_BWBQcI

I think the above video is the best one I have seen for a way to work towards a good racquet drop. I need to keep practicing these until I get it.

 

[Power Player]

What exactly are those prior motions that will lead to a proper racquet drop?

The main part is bringing the racquet over your head like you are combing your hair back. When you do this your elbow should be shoulder level high.

Do it and let the racquet drop. Now follow the Feel Tennis video link in which he describes how the racquet should feel like it is flying out to the right of you right before the swing to contact.

You should start to see how it becomes one motion that should feel like you are whipping the racquet.

 

[Power Player]

So what is the integral part of the serve between the trophy pose and the racquet drop that I seem to be missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

Its the way you drop the raquet and try and get into a trophy pose that is messing you up. Try my prior post. Currently you are arming your serve and have no fluid motion.

 

[boramiNYC]

So what is the integral part of the serve between the trophy pose and the racquet drop that I seem to be missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

your toss is way too much out in front. your arm has to travel far forward to hit the ball preventing the racquet drop. such front tossing is for much more advanced serves where the center of gravity of the whole body can move that far out. your COG is not moving forward much. for now you should keep it closer to right above your head and maybe slightly forward until other things are sorted out.

 

[JackB1]

The main part is bringing the racquet over your head like you are combing your hair back. When you do this your elbow should be shoulder level high.

Do it and let the racquet drop. Now follow the Feel Tennis video link in which he describes how the racquet should feel like it is flying out to the right of you right before the swing to contact.

You should start to see how it becomes one motion that should feel like you are whipping the racquet.

I'll work on the feeltennis drill and maybe video myself doing it, so I can see if I'm doing it correctly.

 

[JackB1]

your toss is way too much out in front. your arm has to travel far forward to hit the ball preventing the racquet drop. such front tossing is for much more advanced serves where the center of gravity of the whole body can move that far out. your COG is not moving forward much. for now you should keep it closer to right above your head and maybe slightly forward until other things are sorted out.

I'll keep that in mind. thanks. good observation!

 

[Power Player]

I'll work on the feeltennis drill and maybe video myself doing it, so I can see if I'm doing it correctly.

Remember - currently on the takeback you are dropping the racquet head down and trying to get into a trophy pose from there.


Instead your takeback should actually be extending the racquet out to the side more and then doing the "comb back" motion. It is an abbreviated motion. The takeback you are trying now is more difficult and takes much more practice and syncing up of different parts.

A slo mo of Federer's serve will illustrate the one I am describing.

 

[JohnB]

So what is the integral part of the serve between the trophy pose and the racquet drop that I seem to be missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

Leading with the elbow IMO.

 

[JackB1]

Remember - currently on the takeback you are dropping the racquet head down and trying to get into a trophy pose from there.

I did that to try and get more fluidity to my motion. But it doing so, maybe I made things more complicated? I can always go back to an abbreviated motion if that will make it easier to make the racquet drop deeper.

Instead your takeback should actually be extending the racquet out to the side more and then doing the "comb back" motion. It is an abbreviated motion. The takeback you are trying now is more difficult and takes much more practice and syncing up of different parts.

Isn't Azerenka's like that? I will work on a different take back motion.

A slo mo of Federer's serve will illustrate the one I am describing.

I'll check it out

...............................
.......

 

[JackB1]

Found a great video to try and model my takeback after
http://youtu.be/8xbC31AQqSgy

I'm going to work on this first and once I get this down, I'll worry about the drop.

 

[Power Player]

Yes I think abbreviated will make things easier. Fed uses an abbreviated and it is a thing of beauty.

I wish I could find the video with the drill. Florian Meyer did it and I can't find it anymore.

You can see in that video you linked that Fed does the reverse comb movement I am describing.

 

[WildVolley]

So what is the integral part of the serve between the trophy pose and the racquet drop that I seem to be missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPo3kmOZH4

You're still arming it. You still need more bend at the elbow when going into the drop. Notice the bend at the elbow the Feel Tennis guy has in his video. You need to do the same thing. Trying to drop with more than a 90 degree bend at the elbow is going to stress your shoulder and not allow it to happen naturally.

If I were you, I'd practice a Roddick style windup and starting with a bent elbow instead of straightening the arm and then trying to bend it at trophy. Good luck and keep practicing.

 

[RetroSpin]

That's what I think too. My motion is the result of self-teaching, bad coaching and then repetition of bad habits. Having done this for years, I find it very hard to break the habits. I wish I could just start over learning the serve from scratch but it isn't quite that easy unfortunately.

Unfortunately, that's what you need to do.

I see two flaws in your motion. One, you have the racquet too close to your body in backscratch. Systemic already addressed this in terms of your elbow bending instead of going into external rotation. Very important point.

Two, there is too much body rotation in your swing. You get the racquet too far behind you then rotate to get it to your side. This rotation is creating problems for you in getting the face square at impact, hence the problem with applying slice spin.

Modern serves are more up and down than around.

I would put you first at the service line and get you to hit from the trophy position, using your arm only. Get the proper arm and wrist action grooved.

Move to baseline and again, start from trophy, no takeback. Again, arm only, no body. Gradually incorporate body and leg movement. You will find, if you're doing it right, that you can serve very powerfully just using your arm. The body and legs add some power, but only if you're using them correctly. Otherwise, they are a detriment.

 

[MurrayMyInspiration]

Watch your elbow, it barely leads the forward swing before your arm catches up and hits the serve.

Jeff Salzenstein has a video about elbowing the enemy.

If you had a stone in your hand instead of a racquet and were throwing it out into a lake, your action would be different.

This is the action you want. Try recording yourself throwing the tennis ball as far as you can over the net. Then watch it and that is the action you are trying to replicate with a racquet. Good luck!

 

[RetroSpin]

Hey Murray,

I just watched that vid yesterday and you're right, it should help him. Tossing the stone out into the lake is also a good visualization.

 

[dominikk1985]

So I've struggled with this for a long time. Ever since I learnt how to serve with a continental grip, my racket drop has been too much to the center of my back (taking the term "back scratch" too literally). The problem is that because of this, I slice a lot (because of the racket path from left to right) and, even worse, I suspect it's the reason for some lower back issues I've been having for a while (makes me fall to the left and kind of stretch my back).

This has been pointed out by TW-users before. The problem is, even though I know this is a big issue in my service motion, I can't fix it. When I shadow swing without a ball, the racket drop is much better, but as soon as I include the ball toss and concentrate on hitting it, I fall back to my old habit. I can shadow swing correctly 20 times in a row, when I toss a ball the 21st time, I'm back to square one. I've always thought that with enough shadow swinging of the correct motion, the problem should vanish automatically, but I can't seem to make progress with this.

Are there any good drills that I could try? Has anyone else had the same problem with the racket drop/back scratch position and corrected it successfully? I feel like I can't make any progress in this area. I've watched tons of videos of pros and a lot of instructional videos. They help but it seems muscle memory is in the way of real progress. I do know what it's supposed to look like...

Here is a video illustrating the problem: http://youtu.be/OLLjHAnw0JU . First I swing without a ball, then I toss a ball. You can clearly see that the motions are different. Also, the back is more or less straight the first time and slightly stretched to the left when I incorporate the ball. In match play, when I jump, the difference is even bigger.

the incorrect backscratch comes from using too much arm flexion and too little external rotation in the transition phase.

 

[JackB1]

Yes I think abbreviated will make things easier. Fed uses an abbreviated and it is a thing of beauty.

I wish I could find the video with the drill. Florian Meyer did it and I can't find it anymore.

You can see in that video you linked that Fed does the reverse comb movement I am describing.

Is Federer's motion really considered "abbreviated"? The racquet starts below his waist and then goes straight down then back and around. Its a pretty long looping motion IMO.

 

[Power Player]

Is Federer's motion really considered "abbreviated"? The racquet starts below his waist and then goes straight down then back and around. Its a pretty long looping motion IMO.

It's debatable because while his motion is long he does some aspects of the abbreviated serve as well. He does not do a full classic serve motion.

You can abbreviate the takeback a little more by bringing the racquet out more and not dropping it as much (see vid below). If you look at Fed's serve, freeze it before the trophy pose right before he brings the racquet over his head.

That is a position you can start from and get fluidity in practice. How you get there is up to you. Fed drops the racquet, I pull the racquet out to that position. It really boils down to what works for your serve.

The serve I do is very similar to this one. Same concept as feds, but see how the racquet drops a little but ends up pulled out with the high elbow before the drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eFRf5kO_dI

 

[toly]

Is Federer's motion really considered "abbreviated"? The racquet starts below his waist and then goes straight down then back and around. Its a pretty long looping motion IMO.

This is Federer second serve. Images copied from tennisplayer.net video.

This is good Federer racquet drop.

 

[JackB1]

It's debatable because while his motion is long he does some aspects of the abbreviated serve as well. He does not do a full classic serve motion.

You can abbreviate the takeback a little more by bringing the racquet out more and not dropping it as much (see vid below). If you look at Fed's serve, freeze it before the trophy pose right before he brings the racquet over his head.

That is a position you can start from and get fluidity in practice. How you get there is up to you. Fed drops the racquet, I pull the racquet out to that position. It really boils down to what works for your serve.

The serve I do is very similar to this one. Same concept as feds, but see how the racquet drops a little but ends up pulled out with the high elbow before the drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eFRf5kO_dI

I have been dry swinging the feel tennis drills and also using the Fed style takeback and I think I am really onto something. I can feel how the racquet drop occurs as a recoil or lagging action due to the other things you are doing. I will keep working on this.