Is djokovic the 3rd best player of all time?

CurrenFan

Rookie
Twice nonsense: Firstly you never have watched a Laver or a Rosewall playing. Secondly: You don't understand that mostly only the modern racquets have accelerated the game, whereas the skills and touch have decreased...

This is a big, steaming pile of horse manure, a statement that reflects nostalgia rather than reality.

Get your own arse in front of a computer and watch some of the old matches before maybe 1982. They are astonishingly slow and casual and lacking in athleticism on 80-90% of the points, even Grand Slam quarterfinals, semi-finals and finals, which should be the most competitive, hotly contested matches. EVERY HOF player from the 60's and 70's mailed it in on most of his shots or strokes, even Connors. This "it's all modern technology" argument is a very narrow perspective. Today's game of tennis is vastly more competitive than that of 30-40 years ago for the following reasons:

1) Yes, it is true, graphite racquets are lighter, more aerodynamic, and more powerful than the old wooden racquets;

2) Yes, again, modern strings are stronger and more powerful than the old gut strings (but obviously not outrageously so nor to the exclusion of the importance of feel and precision - many pros still use a gut string in a hybrid arrangement).

3) BUT modern players' fitness levels are vastly better, from a combination of both exercise and nutrition. Today's tennis pros are probably spending nearly as much time in their average day working just on fitness as the typical pro from 40 years ago spent practicing tennis. In the 1970s, Vitas Gerulaitis probably burned more calories on disco dance floors in an average week than most of his contemporaries did on fitness-related exercises.

4) Players are putting more time and effort into practicing today than they ever did before, so the average level of skill is higher. Today we have scientific analysis of swings and serves involving high speed cameras and computer simulations that are helping players get extra efficiency and power.

5) (to some extent) Performance enhancing drugs (PEDs). They're a factor in nearly every sport that involves strength or aerobic exertion, despite testing, and their use by tennis pros has to be more widespread than the public is aware, but it's a mystery as to how widespread. There are some extremely convincing arguments in a recent PED thread here that Nadal uses PEDs (sudden bulking up as a teen, his alleged injuries do not conform to how injuries of that sort behave, his "injury" breaks from the game coincide perfectly into a PED use schedule, etc... - sorry rabid, mindless fanbois/fangurrls there is one hell of a lot of evidence that he's juicing and we know he cheats, with his uncle coaching him during matches). Even if there is no widespread use of PEDs for the purpose of making one stronger and faster, there has to be plenty of players using them to help recover faster from injuries. Remember, the drugs and those using them are typically staying a few years ahead of testing - Lance Armstrong never tested positive in a single test administered contemporaneously, despite the fact that he was a veritable Frankenstein of artificial biology.

Unquestionably the greats of byegone eras were tremendously skilled tennis players, but they were playing a much slower sport than is played today. I think McEnroe has the finest touch at the net of any player in history, but stick 20-something Mac in a game with today's players and he's not getting to the net as often, he's getting passed more, he's unsuccessfully fending off harder hit shots to the body more frequently, and players are running down and returning a lot more of his shots. A lot of those great shots that the top players made 30-40 years ago were possible because the shot from their opponent that set it up was an easier shot made by a player getting to the ball a quarter or half second slower than the player of today would. A lot of shots made decades ago that were winners are getting returned by today's faster, more fit pros. A lot of those "superb skills" and "wonderful touch" shots that your heroes of yesteryear made were only possible because they had time to get into position for them - they aren't getting to some of those shots if their opponent was a fit, modern player or if they do get to them, they don't have the time to hit as good of a shot.

I'll spell this out again because there are people on this forum who are quite obtuse and will ignore something if someone only acknowledges it once: I do not deny that improvements in racquets and strings have had a very, very big difference in how fast today's game is compared to the game of the wooden racquet era. But it's not as gigantic of a difference as you imagine - Roscoe Tanner was hitting serves in the 130-140mph range with those slow, heavy, ungainly wooden racquets. But if one actually watches matches played in that older era and pays attention, the pros of yesteryear were typically only going at 2/3, 3/4, maybe 7/8 speed compared to how the pros of today play the game, and that's not just the difference in racquets. Absent a tremendously lucky, injury-plagued draw, I don't think David Ferrer will ever win a Slam - he just doesn't have the weapons needed in today's game. But if we had a time machine and he practiced sufficiently with wood racquets, I'd put a fair chunk of money on him winning the calendar year Grand Slam against Borg, McEnroe, Connors, et al.
 
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mattennis

Hall of Fame
Racquets are lighter, more rigid and more maneuverable.

You could hit really hard with wood racquets too, the problem was the control. In the serve, the ball is static, so they could still serve quite hard and with good control with wood racquets.

But in a baseline groundstroke, the ball is already coming with momenta and when you try to return it with another potent shot, the added momenta makes your wood racquet to bend (much more than with modern, more rigid racquets). That is why, even if you could hit really hard with wood racquets, in every stroke but the serve (especially return of serve and groundstrokes) you could still hit really hard (if you chose to) but you would lose all control on the ball.

Generally, they chose to not hit it really hard with wood racquets (except for the serve) because of the lack of control (wood racquets bending during impact).

Modern luxilon-type strings are, in fact, less powerful than natural gut, that is why they have changed the game.

With modern racquets, that are lighter, more rigid and more maneuverable, you NOW can hit it really hard and with insane amount of top-spin (these new racquets do increase the spin) and still you have control. That is why Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray...they all hit (slightly different variants) of "the modern forehand" (there was a great video about this few weeks ago here in the forums).

With wood racquets and natural gut, this same type of "modern forehand" would have no control at all.

Different technology affects the way (the technique) players hit their groundstrokes.

Past players would play with different strokes (technique-wise) today, and also current players would play with different strokes (technique-wise) in past eras.

Would Pancho Gonzalez be nº1 today (had he been born 60 years later) ? Who know? It is impossible to know. Physically and talent-wise, there is nothing to suggest he would not be. Exactly the same with Tilden, Borg, Laver,.....or the same if you ask about Federer or Nadal having born some decades earlier. It is impossible to know, but physically and talent-wise they very well could have been as successful as they are today (having been born in any other era, learning tennis with the knowledge, materials, conditions and technique of that era).
 
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mbm0912

Hall of Fame
Lol. This is what happens when pre-teens flock ttw. Looks like most of the posters seem to have knowledge of only past 4 years of tennis history.

I think another trend among posters here, is a fixation on the Paleozoic Era of tennis.
 

Chico

Banned
Chico, where would you place Nadal on the list? Interested to know your view on it.

Nadal is tier 2, a tier below Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden, ...

That would rank him quite high on the all time list, around 10th place.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Nadal is tier 2, a tier below Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden, ...

That would rank him quite high on the all time list, around 10th place.

Fair enough. Where do you see Djokovic currently in relation to the greats, and what does he need to do to get higher? Key landmarks in his career?
 

LazyNinja19

Banned
Nadal is tier 2, a tier below Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden, ...

That would rank him quite high on the all time list, around 10th place.

And I thought the OP was smoking. I guess something's wrong with the water, the Brethren is drinking :lol:

Fair enough. Where do you see Djokovic currently in relation to the greats, and what does he need to do to get higher? Key landmarks in his career?

Really, that's fair enough? :shock: Didn't expect that from you at all.
 
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Chico

Banned
Fair enough. Where do you see Djokovic currently in relation to the greats, and what does he need to do to get higher? Key landmarks in his career?

Djokovic is tier 3, around 15-20 place. Below Nadal, Agassi, Connors, McEnroe, Rosewall, Fred Perry, Lacoste, ...

Need to win RG and couple more to join tier 2.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
And I thought the OP was smoking. I guess something's wrong with the water, the Brethren is drinking :lol:



Really, that's fair enough? :shock: Didn't expect that from you at all.

You really expect for me to get into an argument with Chico? :)

I asked him for his opinion. I am not arguing with him, I am just curious to know where he would personally rank Nadal. Me arguing with him would mean pushing my opinion onto his, which I don't like doing.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Djokovic is tier 3, around 15-20 place. Below Nadal, Agassi, Connors, McEnroe, Rosewall, Fred Perry, Lacoste, ...

Need to win RG and couple more to join tier 2.

So Djokovic does have some work ahead of it seems. Taking RG from Nadal will be the most challenging of all challenges in tennis I think. But, I do feel if he can get that win, he might be able to the ride the crest of that momentum to gain milestones.

You confident in his chances this year, or is there anything you would like to see him do better?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Well for me federer is the best and nadal 2nd but djokovic has done so well to win so many slams and masters 1000 titles so i think when their careers end djokovic should be classified as the 3rd best of all time

At the end of their career, you predict these 3 players will be the greatest of all time.

1. Federer
2. Nadal
3. Nole

That leaves Laver, Sampras, Borg, Pancho and company take #4 and below. So it takes only 2 recent decades for tennis to have 3 greatest players when tennis has been around for over a century.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Are there more non-Serbian Djoker fans than non-British Murray fans? In my area, yes, but it is close. There are very few.
 
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Deleted member 21996

Guest
since Federer and Nadal are not the 1 and 2, it's safe to assume NO!
 

Tenez101

Banned
Twice nonsense: Firstly you never have watched a Laver or a Rosewall playing. Secondly: You don't understand that mostly only the modern racquets have accelerated the game, whereas the skills and touch have decreased...

Borg and McEnroe were more both skilled than either of those guys. They played with the same technology. Only difference is the game got more physical and the competition much harder. Net skills and touch each reached their technical peak after 1970.
 

Tenez101

Banned
Yeah, but you know what the problem is here? Hiter's army owns Caesar's army due to evolution and technology. Tanks vs roman legions. No contest.

But take Hitler's technology away or give tanks and submarines to both guys, and Caesar might be a better general.

That is the reason, I don't dismiss past greats.

Interesting analogy. But in this case, Borg and McEnroe were more skilled than anyone pre-1970, including the oft-cited Laver and Rosewall. And they played with the same technology (or else there were very minor differences).

Calling anyone GOAT from even earlier eras, like the 20's or 30's, is a joke. In no other sport on the planet do people seriously claim athletes from nearly 100 years ago are in the GOAT discussion.
 
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CurrenFan

Rookie
Calling anyone GOAT from even earlier eras, like the 20's or 30's, is a joke. In no other sport on the planet do people seriously claim athletes from nearly 100 years ago are in the GOAT discussion.

Actually, people do talk about how some of the golfers from the 20's, 30's and 40's were as good as any modern golfer. Walter Hagen, Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead played with primitive equipment - Hagen and Jones used hickory shafts, the others used heavy rudimentary steel shafts with clubheads with no titanium, no perimeter weighting, little bitty persimmon wood heads on the driver and fairway clubs, plus their golf balls were hardly computer-tested for precision roundness, optimal spin speeds and launch angles, etc.... Notwithstanding the limitations of their equipment, these pros were hitting within a few yards of the PGA Tour's average lengths in the pre-Tiger era, some probably still would outdrive the bottom quarter of the PGA tour today, and they posted scoring records that lasted decades, some until broken by Tiger Woods. Course conditions were rougher, greens rolled less true, so even though holes may be been shorter then than today, the pros from the dawn of the PGA Tour didn't have it any easier. Byron Nelson, born the same year as Hogan and Snead, may have been the greatest golfer of all time, but he retired at his peak, the year after the greatest year in golf history and very arguably the greatest year any athlete has ever experienced, a record year that will never be equaled by any golfer. Nelson won 18 tournaments in 1945, including 11 in a row.

Incidentally, Sam Snead played in the 1937 U.S. Pro Tennis Championship, losing to the eventual champion.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
But if we had a time machine and he practiced sufficiently with wood racquets, I'd put a fair chunk of money on him winning the calendar year Grand Slam against Borg, McEnroe, Connors, et al.

Connors reached a US Open semifinal at 39, McEnroe a Wimbledon SF at 33, a mere decade before Ferrer turned pro....on their last legs....yet you think Ferrer would be their superior playing with the racquets that brought them most of their success (well the T2000 wasn't a woodie but it sure as hell doesn't resemble the sticks we see today) in their respective primes?

I think you'd lose that fair chunk of money.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Well, Laver is in front of Nadal because he's greater.

Two years ago, having Djokovic at #12 wasnt a knock on him. Now he's probably top 6-7, and moving up fast.
I'm guessing Laver, Gonzales, Sampras, Federer and Nadal are the only players you'd rank above him, TFS? ;)
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
I'm guessing Laver, Gonzales, Sampras, Federer and Nadal are the only players you'd rank above him, TFS? ;)
Lol, right you are ;)

Rosewall also perhaps has the slightly more prolific career, but his peak level and o-fer at Wimbledon makes it a bit of a toss up.

Tilden-Djokovic-Rosewall is an interesting trio to rank.
 
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