Vox Rationis
Professional
Challenge accepted
It’s time we stop bashing “pushers”
- Thread starter Fabresque
- Start date
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I find at 4.5 it kind of splits down soft vs heavy games. The softies can put the ball anywhere and play angles, spin and depth to their advantage rather than relying on power game. The heavies typically have a weapon, either a strong serve, big forehand or heavy groundstrokes to attack you with.
A more defensive softy is generally a retriever. A heavy defender is more a baseline counterpuncher.
And offensive softy will serve and volley, chip and charge whereas the offensive heavy will get their points off their serve and forehand winners.
One might be tempted to call the defensive softy a pusher but they can do things with the ball that are risky and put the opponent in trouble. Pinpoint lobs, angled low slices, topspin mooballs into the BH corner, wicked drop shots. There's a bag of tricks there to keep you from overpowering them. But it requires shotmaking just not excessive power.
Having read the myriad of posts on this site re: pushers I'm going to strongly disagree with your first sentence. I also disagree with your definition of pusher. Simply being a low risk player does not make you a pusher. Consistent players DO put pressure on their opponents by making them hit a lot of balls. And that is a perfectly valid strategy. And if playing such a strategy is all it takes to beat you then you are simply not very good, don't bash them. My definition of a pusher (given my experience listed previously) is someone who just bunts the ball back, doesn't stroke the ball at all, they literally just 'push' the ball over the net with a short punch like jab at the ball. Someone with decent strokes and fundamentals who chooses to play a low risk game is not a pusher as most here believe.
I do agree with you, however, that after a certain level true pushers are rare. And personally I loved playing pushers, I was able to do whatever I wanted against them.
Last edited:
mnttlrg
Professional
What does that mean?
Vanhalen
Professional
I have 2 hitting partners. Polar opposites. I really need a normal all arounder! A 5’6 pusher who can go all day long ...never misses, gets to everything and a 6’2 s&v left hander with a big serve. Man are their games different. Huge adjustment for me both mentally and physically.
The pusher just drains me physically and mentally. Two hours and we have played 2 sets. I crawl back to my car......lol. I am refreshed with the big guy. Quick points! If I get past his serve....I’m good to go. If his serve is on.....it’s tough as he can put you on the defensive right away.
Im only 5’7 so very limited serve power. I’m like Agassi, I know my limitations and play to my advantages......consistency, speed, endurance. Most opponents would consider me a counter pusher or pusher. But I hit the ball hard. Depends on your definition. I am stuck with the game handed to me due to my size, and I’m fine with that.
Makes tennis exciting.
The pusher just drains me physically and mentally. Two hours and we have played 2 sets. I crawl back to my car......lol. I am refreshed with the big guy. Quick points! If I get past his serve....I’m good to go. If his serve is on.....it’s tough as he can put you on the defensive right away.
Im only 5’7 so very limited serve power. I’m like Agassi, I know my limitations and play to my advantages......consistency, speed, endurance. Most opponents would consider me a counter pusher or pusher. But I hit the ball hard. Depends on your definition. I am stuck with the game handed to me due to my size, and I’m fine with that.
Makes tennis exciting.
BallBag
Professional
I don't think the ITF has defined how hard you have to hit the ball to not be a pusher. If most people say a pusher is someone that doesn't make errors than that's the definition.
Thank you for making my point for me. Well done!
BallBag
Professional
If Andy Murray is a counterpuncher than what is Gilles Simon?
Last edited:
Slowtwitcher
Legend
BallBag
Professional
So what do you call a player that is all the way on the defensive side? How do you describe Simon's game? BTW, what is your point?
Read my posts, they'd be clear to a child. Simon is by no means a pusher if that's the answer you're looking for. A true pusher could not make $ millions on the pro tour. I've seen him play live several times and have seen him come to net to finish points, hit winners from the backcourt, hit aces, winning overheads, and on and on. Anyone who thinks Simon is a pusher is ignorant and someone who loses every time to anyone who can hit the ball across the net 3 times in a row. They blame their opponents style rather than face up to their own deficiencies.
With your help I've made my point (to those smart enough to comprehend) and have nothing more to say.
With your help I've made my point (to those smart enough to comprehend) and have nothing more to say.
Last edited:
BallBag
Professional
I don't know why you got offended and started calling me names. I win against 3.5 pushers and lose to 4.5 pushers. I'm asking what you call a player that makes less unforced errors than a counterpuncher or is everyone a counterpuncher.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
This definition works for me.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Pushers is a sensitive subject.
R1FF
Professional
Lotsa trauma. The PTSD is evident every time this subject is broached here.
speedysteve
Legend
I've nothing against pushers at all levels, if they beat me.
I don't like losing to anyone but accept it.
I do object to them trying to steal a game off me, and constantly foot faulting by a large margin though.
I don't like losing to anyone but accept it.
I do object to them trying to steal a game off me, and constantly foot faulting by a large margin though.
shamaho
Professional
That's a very fundamental question, sir !! and the answer by each one is what MAY explain why some "push" to win, while others venture and risk more and fail more and loose more...
Personally I equate tennis at the same level with the finest of martial arts. So, tennis for me is Tennis-Do (Tennis - the Way)
for those not familiar with "Do" - look it up in the context of martial arts.
and link to interesting article: https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the-6-most-important-things-martial-arts-taught-me-about-life
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
The error in this thinking is that all pushers are absolute minimum risk, when in reality there is a continuum and most pushers will make adjustments to their opponents.
When I face another pusher, my first inclination is to be the more patient player, letting them get frustrated and start taking more risks first. This works pretty well in cases where I'm the more fit player and their UEs will increase over time as they tire. But even in these cases, I'm trying to place the ball in locations that have them running around the court more than I am. That can require more risk - while not going for winners, the further you make an opponent run, the closer you need to hit to some boundary.
When it becomes clear that the other player is more fit than me, I realize I'm likely to lose a 3 hour endurance contest. I don't start going for lots of winners, but I do make more effort to construct points to take advantage of the opposing player's weaknesses. Most pushers are pushers because they have some weaknesses - often net play is their weakness, so I'll try and force them to the net to end points more quickly.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
BallBag
Professional
I WANT THE TRUTH
Slowtwitcher
Legend
FiReFTW
Legend
I agree with BallBag I respect their style, anyone can play however they want, it doesnt bother me, they can junk, moonball, underhand serve, whatever... but that doesn't mean I have to like playing them, I dislike playing them, the game is boring to play against someone like that, its not for me, I prefer to play against someone that has strong serve strong strokes and pushes me and hits offensive shots and its a very fun way to play.
Playing against different styles (including pushers) is a great way to build variety in your own game. I think being able to vary your own gamestyle to counteract your opponent's is a big advantage. Many players can't adapt and subsequently fall apart if they are not allowed to play their own preferred style.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Basically agrees with my definition. Low or no risk tennis, winning by opponents unforced errors. And again, we hate them because we are the cause of our demise and that shatters our ego.
I think if you want to play league or tournament singles this advice is crucial. Just like if you want to play competitive doubles you need to play the lob kings and queens. A singles player needs to figure out pushers just like a doubles player needs to figure out lobbers.
If all you care about is social play, then scrub the pushers from your schedule and just play the guys you like to play against.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Anyone who thinks pushers exist beyond low 4.0 needs to say what they think is the difference between a pusher, a junk baller, and a counterpuncher.
R1FF
Professional
Pushers beyond low 4.0 are just patient players.
That said, my old coach (a 5.0 skilled player) wasnt shy about being a pusher. I think we just assume pusher are hacks. I see pushing as a mentality.
It's zero risk tennis.
And if the quality of the stroke is 5.0 (or any level 4.0+) it's really good tennis. I dont understand why taking risks and UE's are heralded.
Low level pushers can easily be beat. If a person has the skills to do so. The problems are this: "most" tennis players dont have those skills and for those that do, beating the low level pusher isnt fun tennis anyways. So the hack pusher or junk baller is hated.
Fedinkum
Legend
Thanks for this insight!
I guess the bolded scenario is probably why some hate pushers. Real works will be involved and the works ain't particularly fun.
R1FF
Professional
One more anecdote...
When I started playing, I was a HARDCORE pusher. Im fast as heck, halfway smart, and gritty. I played against people usually in the 3.5-4.5 range. They hit at a pace where I never could work on my own strokes. In order to survive, I had to SURVIVE.
After 2 years I got pretty good at this style of tennis. I started beating people way above my level. And the common response was, "if you dont ever learn to play real tennis, nobody is going to want to play you anymore".
Eventually I got beat by a better pusher (a story told earlier in this thread) and that was the impetus to get me to learn "real" tennis. I learned better strokes, coming to the net, how to hit winners, better strategy, etc. But my coach heavily stressed that I never give up my defensive pusher mindset.
So I went to work all of last year on re-tooling my game. It was mentally brutal. I lost a LOT of matches to all those people I used to beat. They loved playing me now.
Over this past winter I got a really good coach. We started doing 4 hour lessons. Made massive improvements. My serve is 5.0 level on it's best day. My athleticism is better than ever. And my strokes are 4.0-4.5 ... But I still try not to take any risks. Everything looks prettier, and my quality of play has improved a LOT. Im still defensive minded. I just work on point construction until I get the easy putaway. Their UE's pile up, mine are minimal. They get tired, I dont. Their frustration builds, mine never does. I rarely double fault while applying a lot of pressure with my serve. Those same people that loved playing me last year, the same people that said they'd stop playing me if I didnt learn real tennis? They wont play me at all anymore. So what's the difference in the end.
Im the same player I always was. Fast & gritty. I love long rallies. Now I can just hit with topspin and I keep it deep. And I come to net when applicable.
Moral of the story? People dont like getting beat by people they see as "beneath them". And people that rarely hit UE's? They're frustrating at any level. It's a huge amount of pressure put on an opponent that doesnt have the stomach for a patient game.
When I started playing, I was a HARDCORE pusher. Im fast as heck, halfway smart, and gritty. I played against people usually in the 3.5-4.5 range. They hit at a pace where I never could work on my own strokes. In order to survive, I had to SURVIVE.
After 2 years I got pretty good at this style of tennis. I started beating people way above my level. And the common response was, "if you dont ever learn to play real tennis, nobody is going to want to play you anymore".
Eventually I got beat by a better pusher (a story told earlier in this thread) and that was the impetus to get me to learn "real" tennis. I learned better strokes, coming to the net, how to hit winners, better strategy, etc. But my coach heavily stressed that I never give up my defensive pusher mindset.
So I went to work all of last year on re-tooling my game. It was mentally brutal. I lost a LOT of matches to all those people I used to beat. They loved playing me now.
Over this past winter I got a really good coach. We started doing 4 hour lessons. Made massive improvements. My serve is 5.0 level on it's best day. My athleticism is better than ever. And my strokes are 4.0-4.5 ... But I still try not to take any risks. Everything looks prettier, and my quality of play has improved a LOT. Im still defensive minded. I just work on point construction until I get the easy putaway. Their UE's pile up, mine are minimal. They get tired, I dont. Their frustration builds, mine never does. I rarely double fault while applying a lot of pressure with my serve. Those same people that loved playing me last year, the same people that said they'd stop playing me if I didnt learn real tennis? They wont play me at all anymore. So what's the difference in the end.
Im the same player I always was. Fast & gritty. I love long rallies. Now I can just hit with topspin and I keep it deep. And I come to net when applicable.
Moral of the story? People dont like getting beat by people they see as "beneath them". And people that rarely hit UE's? They're frustrating at any level. It's a huge amount of pressure put on an opponent that doesnt have the stomach for a patient game.
Last edited:
Steady Eddy
Legend
I wonder if pusher isn't confused with someone who is consistent? A pusher, sort of only pushes the ball. They have no pace. A consistent player can hit with pace, but won't often hit with so much pace that they sacrifice control. If you lose to a consistent player just because of your own inconsistency, that means you're beating yourself and the problem is with your own game.
vex
Legend
“Pusher” has just become a meme at this point thrown out for “anyone that hits more consistently than me”.
vex
Legend
No they don’t. If you have superior skills to the pusher you’d be able to hit past them or at the least corner them with groundstrokes and move in to volley away thier push.
Instead, what you’re really saying is “I’m wildly inconsistent and they aren’t playing by my rules by hitting even wilder and less consistent than me”
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Fabresque
Legend
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
There are 5 stages of pusher loss grief:
1. Denial.
2. Anger.
3. Depression.
4. Bargaining.
5. Acceptance.
Some have a hard time getting past the first stage.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Still mad bro...?
Fabresque
Legend
Naw, but a pusher definitely hurt you bruh.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
STILL mad bro...!
TennisManiac
Hall of Fame
I don't talk down to pushers. I actually feel bad for them because they look kind of pathetic on court. I blow pushers away. It frustrates many people. But not me. They're easy to beat.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
We don’t need your sympathy.
vex
Legend
Then why are you complaining about them? I mean seriously, hit a shot wide to thier FH, hit a shot wide to thier BH, volley/overhead away their on the run floater/lob.
Congrats you just beat every pusher.
If that’s not working then you’re not playing a pusher, you’re playing a skilled groundstroker who knows he’s more consistent than you and can out-defend your offense or counterpunch when you make a bad approach.
Sorry but every player who isn’t as aggressive as Federer isn’t a pusher.
R1FF
Professional
How to beat a pusher, or most any rec player, in just a few relatively simple strokes. Nothing difficult here. Just depth & aim. No crazy pace. Get control of the point and make the most of it by coming to the net.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
vex
Legend
At that point you gotta just give him props! Or break out Bryan brothers volley skills
I identify with the pusher community, but am way more of a junkballer than a pusher. I would much rather face a pusher (allows me to control the points) than a basher. Bashers at my level often cannot keep more than 3 shots in play, and DF often, so not much tennis gets played. I like long points and interestingly-constructed points. I prefer matches where each set there are a couple of really memorable points and ridiculously-conceived/executed winners.
Similar threads
