Jumping during serve

[johnmccabe]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

 

[Dragy]

Consider the direction you drive your body. For slice serve, it’s slightly less up, more forward and around. If you drive up too much, you misalign with your arm swing.

 

[johnmccabe]

Consider the direction you drive your body. For slice serve, it’s slightly less up, more forward and around. If you drive up too much, you misalign with your arm swing.

How does it compare with flat serve? I feel my motion is very similar for slice vs flat. But who knows, until I compare them on videos.

 

[fuzz nation]

Impossible to say without seeing it happen. If you're trying to "jump hard" when you hit your serves, you could be introducing too much of a variable with your vertical movement as you swing over the top. Some lifting off the ground - jumping - is evidence of a healthy upward/forward push with the legs, but that's only a piece of the progression that energizes the serve.

You might get a lot of the push that you need in that progression without jumping too violently and that could keep your head more still as you release through the ball with your slice serve. That usually helps with more consistent contact. Try executing a few practice motions (without hitting a ball) and compare the "whoosh" you hear when you jump a lot vs. jumping only a little bit. If it's not too different, you might get the slice serve you want without it.

Post #2 mentions potential arm misalignment. That can be happening if your orientation is about the same for all three styles of serves you hit. Your flat and kick serves may have swing planes that are more vertical (straight over the top) relative to you in contrast with your slice serve where your swing plane is more diagonal. Combining a significant upward jump with that more diagonal swing plane can make it tougher to consistently find your best contact point. This might not be the case, but if it is, that's what has me thinking of trying to get your head a little more still for that serve.

 

[Dragy]

How does it compare with flat serve? I feel my motion is very similar for slice vs flat. But who knows, until I compare them on videos.

They are close, but flat serve can be done quite differently. Like flat-off-topspin (when you flatten out your serve off 12-o’clock toss) vs more side-swing flat. Usually, in my experience, high level flat serves have a tad more upward body drive compared to pure sidespin serves. On slice serves you want to open your chest more around and get your hand a smidge under the ball more so that you cut the ball before racquet face opens fully.

So it can be balanced by upper body and arm when your leg drive is lightish. But as you engage more power upwards - need to recalibrate.

 

[johnmccabe]

They are close, but flat serve can be done quite differently. Like flat-off-topspin (when you flatten out your serve off 12-o’clock toss) vs more side-swing flat. Usually, in my experience, high level flat serves have a tad more upward body drive compared to pure sidespin serves. On slice serves you want to open your chest more around and get your hand a smidge under the ball more so that you cut the ball before racquet face opens fully.

So it can be balanced by upper body and arm when your leg drive is lightish. But as you engage more power upwards - need to recalibrate.

in conclusion, I need to hit more slice serves....

 

[Chas Tennis]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

The jump in ATP and WTA high level serves precedes the brief 'chest up' position during the late service motion. See videos in the thread below.

This observation was illustrated and its function explained in the thread
Forum Search (see top right corner this post page): Thoracic Extension Serve
Member: Chas Tennis

Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Serve

WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ? http://www.racquetfit.com/articles/Screening/if_you_can%27t_extend_from_your_thoracic_spine_you%27re_squandering_power_and_inviting_injury The extension of the...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

To understand, first study what a 'Two Joint Muscle' is and how the length between the muscle's attachments is affected by the angles of both joints. For Thoracic Extension it is a multi-joint muscle, the lat, that seems to benefit from Thoracic Extension.

If you find references for Thoracic Extension and the serve, please post in that Thoracic Extension thread.

 

[LeeD]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

You gotta practice the serve you hit.
Since a technique change was added for flat and kick serves, you have to practice and incorporate the jump into you slice serves.

 

[nyta2]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

when i hit my "slice" it's actually more of a topslice... (eg contact ~1:30)
i don't jump, but i do elevate, up and through contact (specifically i'm trying to make contact, and feel my body still continue to travel up after contact)
personally i prefer @Serve Doc "polevault" analogy... where my "bend" catapaults the racquet up & out, into & through contact.

if i tried to do a "3 o'clock" slice, the polevaulting'up & through doesn't work... but no one good actually does this slice as it's too slow, spinny, predictable... more of a progression to understanding spin...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

in conclusion, I need to hit more slice serves....

Y knot topspin-slice serves?

 

[johnmccabe]

Y knot topspin-slice serves?

I probably should. When I first tried to learn kick serve, I was very disappointed to find out all I produced were this weirdo called top slice... maybe top slice is my Jon Snow.

 

[johnmccabe]

when i hit my "slice" it's actually more of a topslice... (eg contact ~1:30)
i don't jump, but i do elevate, up and through contact (specifically i'm trying to make contact, and feel my body still continue to travel up after contact)
personally i prefer ...

This is how I hit my slice too. I use a slightly delayed pronation. I thought this is a drive slice. When I try to hit harder at higher contact point, can't make it work consistently.

 

[socallefty]

If you are serious about getting tips to improve your specific technique, you’ll have to post video. The serve in particular is a complicated shot and it is hard to give general tips. Almost no one over the age of 40 jumps during the serve including the good 4.5+ big servers - but the big servers all bend their knees and coil their torso a lot along with having great ISR.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If you are serious about getting tips to improve your specific technique, you’ll have to post video. The serve in particular is a complicated shot and it is hard to give general tips. Almost no one over the age of 40 jumps during the serve including the good 4.5+ big servers - but the big servers all bend their knees and coil their torso a lot along with having great ISR.

While I never had Roger's vertical, I was still getting airborne on my tennis serves in my 40s & 50s. I was also jumping on my volleyball spikes until my mid 50s.

 

[nyta2]

If you are serious about getting tips to improve your specific technique, you’ll have to post video. The serve in particular is a complicated shot and it is hard to give general tips. Almost no one over the age of 40 jumps during the serve including the good 4.5+ big servers - but the big servers all bend their knees and coil their torso a lot along with having great ISR.

any decent server is going to elevate a little... even an inch... at the very least to alleviate the twisting tension the the lead knee.... every on my 40y+ team will "elevate" over the baseline (no one is doing a step through with their rear leg type serve). I personally practice "sticking the landing" (a test for balance, toss location, etc...), effectively "hopping" over the baseline, and landing on the other side.

 

[LuckyR]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

Sure, you grooved a slice motion that is high consistency with a suboptimal (meaning: lower) contact point. If the serve is performing at the level you are seeking, great. But be aware that you could hit a more effective (more pace, more slice and more angle) slice serve if you hit from the higher contact point. This could be at a similar consistancy. However, depending on your stroke, it may involve unlearning your old stroke and relearning it.

Your choice.

 

[socallefty]

Ok, maybe some rec advanced players get slightly airborne when old. But it doesn’t look like what they did when they were young where they might have elevated much more where it is obvious to a spectator.

 

[LuckyR]

Ok, maybe some rec advanced players get slightly airborne when old. But it doesn’t look like what they did when they were young where they might have elevated much more where it is obvious to a spectator.

At even Club level, the reason to get airborne, even if it's an inch, isn't to gain an inch. It's to avoid crunching down with randomly lower than average tosses. Those inevitably go in the net.

 

[ey039524]

If you want to hit a jump slice, you need to see jj wolf serve. He hits that most of the time. He's not a big guy, so that seems to be the reason for it.

 

[5263]

when I hit flat and kick serves, aggressive leg drive always helps with both power and consistency. For kick, jumping seems to help racquet head speed without stressing the arm too much. For flat, especially on the ad court, it helps getting higher contact point and better chance of clearing the net.

however, the consistency on my slice serve goes down when I jump hard. why is that? Slice was the first serve I learned, but spend most of the time hitting flat and kick serves, since then. I could not figure out why. Anyone has a guess?

Most likely it is because you are not using a bit of TOPslice to your slice... It doesn't need to be much but it will help your slice and it will help the jump work for you.

 

[johnmccabe]

Most likely it is because you are not using a bit of TOPslice to your slice... It doesn't need to be much but it will help your slice and it will help the jump work for you.

Thanks a bunch. Will give it a try...

 

[TennisDawg]

If you’re hitting the ball at 3 for slice why worry so much about jumping? Just a thought. There’s other type slice serves where jumping is helpful like hitting at 1-2 oclock but I won’t get into that.

 

[johnmccabe]

If you’re hitting the ball at 3 for slice why worry so much about jumping? Just a thought. There’s other type slice serves where jumping is helpful like hitting at 1-2 oclock but I won’t get into that.

I hit at 1-2 o'clock

 

[johnmccabe]

If you are serious about getting tips to improve your specific technique, you’ll have to post video. The serve in particular is a complicated shot and it is hard to give general tips. Almost no one over the age of 40 jumps during the serve including the good 4.5+ big servers - but the big servers all bend their knees and coil their torso a lot along with having great ISR.

recorded some today

 

[johnmccabe]

looking closer into the video. top to bottom: flat, slice, kick.
seems like my slice contact is not too bad, although I hit closer to 2:30 oclock than 1:30.
The contact point of deuce side kick serve seems to be a bigger problem. upper body position and how the string bed contacts the ball don't look right. maybe I need to launch further into the court and under the ball?

https://imgur.com/a/VSxDpRZ

 

[Dragy]

The contact point of deuce side kick serve seems to be a bigger problem. upper body position and how the string bed contacts the ball don't look right. maybe I need to launch further into the court and under the ball?

For body position, engage your core going into contact, as far as slightly bending in waist “forward”, which is towards the right net post for you (but not bending down).

For racquet position - let the ball drop a tad more, while lifting same or higher. Visualize attacking the ball as the racquet is almost 90 deg angle with forearm. Send your hand “past” the ball more - don’t release the tip to reach for the ball too soon.

 

[nyta2]

looking closer into the video. top to bottom: flat, slice, kick.
seems like my slice contact is not too bad, although I hit closer to 2:30 oclock than 1:30.
The contact point of deuce side kick serve seems to be a bigger problem. upper body position and how the string bed contacts the ball don't look right. maybe I need to launch further into the court and under the ball?

https://imgur.com/a/VSxDpRZ

seems like you're making contact "at the highest point possible"... the racquet needs to travel up & to the right more - *after* contact, to get more spin...

 

[johnmccabe]

For body position, engage your core going into contact, as far as slightly bending in waist “forward”, which is towards the right net post for you (but not bending down).

For racquet position - let the ball drop a tad more, while lifting same or higher. Visualize attacking the ball as the racquet is almost 90 deg angle with forearm. Send your hand “past” the ball more - don’t release the tip to reach for the ball too soon.

I have to figure out some progression to fix the racquet position. Just going on court to hit is not working for me. I can only do it in shadow swing so far.

I kinda get the body position in ad side. but something is preventing my upper body to bend forward on deuce court.

https://imgur.com/a/woWwocR

 

[johnmccabe]

seems like you're making contact "at the highest point possible"... the racquet needs to travel up & to the right more - *after* contact, to get more spin...

I've been trying to make contact lower for kick. I can produce that racquet path only in shadow swing and a little bit on ad court. Something is not clicking for me on the deuce. suspecting it has something to do with my toss and coordination.

 

[nyta2]

I've been trying to make contact lower for kick. I can produce that racquet path only in shadow swing and a little bit on ad court. Something is not clicking for me on the deuce. suspecting it has something to do with my toss and coordination.

for me/daughter, we the lowered contact felt "way lower than i'm used"... even to the point of dropping my elbow to match the lower contact...
a drill that has helped my daugther find the contact, while keeping hitting elbow high:
start at backscratch... pull the butt to contact, and topslice the ball into the box (should be a very high arc'ing moonbally type shot), and but keep your hitting elbow up as you let the racquet fly past your arm in the "dirty diaper" finish (your elbow should be higher than your hand at this point.

 

[johnmccabe]

for me/daughter, we the lowered contact felt "way lower than i'm used"... even to the point of dropping my elbow to match the lower contact...
a drill that has helped my daugther find the contact, while keeping hitting elbow high:
start at backscratch... pull the butt to contact, and topslice the ball into the box (should be a very high arc'ing moonbally type shot), and but keep your hitting elbow up as you let the racquet fly past your arm in the "dirty diaper" finish (your elbow should be higher than your hand at this point.

really! never thought the "dirty diaper" has this effect....

 

[nyta2]

really! never thought the "dirty diaper" has this effect....

the finish doesn't "effect it", it just a reference position that can help you identify if yoiu let the racquet whip past your hand...
i've always heard it described as the wrist snap, but there's an elbow "snap" (bending) component to it too... (and isr, etc...)