Kick/Topspin Serve-Power

A

acer

Rookie
I was wondering if someone could please answer a question on the kick/topspin serve. From what I read, to hit a kick/topspin serve the ball should be tossed over your head. i.e. if the ball were a clock, toss to 11:00 for a rightie and 1:00 for a leftie (I am a leftie). If the ball were to drop it should land on your head. Thus you are also throwing the ball back a bit and not forward.

A recent article in March's tennis magazine states that for power on your serve you should start on you back foot and as you raise your hand to toss the ball that you should transfer your weight to your front foot. This will result in throwing the ball in front of you and you should land land in the court. The article says that this toss well help a flat and slice serve. I have read this many times before so that make sense. You obviously get more power throwing the ball forward and using your froward momentum landing in the court.

My question is that since you have to throw the ball over your head and back a bit (not forward) for a kick serve, I end up leaning back on my back foot as I throw the ball back. I can get the spin but not as much power. How can you get more power? If I were to still toss the ball to 1:00 (for a leftie) but forward in front of my body, instead of back, can you still do a good a kick serve? Everything I have read says that the toss should be back and not forward.

Any advice appreciated

Thanks

Acer
 
O

oldguysrule

Semi-Pro
The key ingredient in a kick serve is the spin, not power. A topspin serve is different. You would combine the two. But the kick serve is all about the spin. Don't worry that it is not as fast as your other serves. It is not meant to be. (This is my experience, not meant to be stated as fact)
 
F

Freedom

Professional
When I hit my topspin and kick serves, I toss the ball slightly out in front of my body, and when I bend my knees, arch my back, and thrust out the hip, I end up under the ball, with my body weight moving forward.

Maybe that helps?

Don't try to force a technique to get power though- it's not worth screwing up your back or anything else.
 
A

acer

Rookie
Thanks for the replies. Oldsguysrule that is certainly a good point, getting good spin and adding placement is a good combination. Freedom, I am going to try your advice next time out. I was thinking about that myself. Once you throw the ball out front, by the time you are moving forward the ball will still be over head if you use the right mechanics.

Thanks again

Acer
 
gzhpcu

gzhpcu

Professional
All serves have a combination of topspin and sidespin. There is no such thing as a pure sidespin or pure topspin serve.

Sampras had plenty of topspin and sidespin on his serves. He tossed the ball well in front for power, but well to the left for his topspin element. He leaned a bit to the left as he fell forward. He got the best of both worlds: speed and spin.
 
F

Freedom

Professional
Sampras usually hit about 120 mph, yes? He had a really simple motion that you may want to look into, acer.
 
M

munk3y

Rookie
Thinking about where to hit the ball, like in a 7 oclock to 1 oclock direction, just makes things far more complicated than it should be. For me, I just toss the ball in a position where I know that when i hit up, it will create topspin. Too much thinking and too much information only serves to slow you down and then a crappy serve will come out.

I never toss the ball behind my head, I feel it is unnatural for me to do so. If I ever wanted more kick, I just don't toss as foreward as I normally would. I also brush up more. What I am trying to say here is that tossing behind you is not necessary but it may help some people.

This is just my $0.02 worth :)
 
mucat

mucat

Hall of Fame
You can try getting more power by increasing shoulder rotation, have a more closed stance. Also, toss the ball more in front of you will help.
 
O

ondray

Guest
I put 60% of the weight on my back foot for my kick serves and bring it forward into the court instead of my left foot after ball contact. I find that by pushing the right side of my body into the court gives me the power but like the previous poster said, the main element in kick serves is the spin. The more spin you produce, the faster and higher it will kick off the ground.
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
acer said:
I was wondering if someone could please answer a question on the kick/topspin serve. From what I read, to hit a kick/topspin serve the ball should be tossed over your head. i.e. if the ball were a clock, toss to 11:00 for a rightie and 1:00 for a leftie (I am a leftie). If the ball were to drop it should land on your head. Thus you are also throwing the ball back a bit and not forward.

A recent article in March's tennis magazine states that for power on your serve you should start on you back foot and as you raise your hand to toss the ball that you should transfer your weight to your front foot. This will result in throwing the ball in front of you and you should land land in the court. The article says that this toss well help a flat and slice serve. I have read this many times before so that make sense. You obviously get more power throwing the ball forward and using your froward momentum landing in the court.

My question is that since you have to throw the ball over your head and back a bit (not forward) for a kick serve, I end up leaning back on my back foot as I throw the ball back. I can get the spin but not as much power. How can you get more power? If I were to still toss the ball to 1:00 (for a leftie) but forward in front of my body, instead of back, can you still do a good a kick serve? Everything I have read says that the toss should be back and not forward.

Any advice appreciated

Thanks

Acer
Click to expand...
Well Acer, for "general" tips, I wouldn't really recommend a power serve on the 2nd serve. Now I'm not against power 2nd serving as I mysellf have a power 2nd serve kicker when I'm on a streak with confidence.

Anyways, you however did not state 2nd serving, so here is my tip on how to generate more pace on a kicker/topspin that you could use as a high percentage 1st serve or a lower-percentage-than-an-ordinary-2ndserve 2nd serve.

• Use a grip that is closer to an eastern backhand grip (I find that a hybrid grip works very well too. Basically a hybrid is just a grip whereas the base knuckle of your index finger is on the first bevel (where it would be for a continental grip) and the edge of your palm is on the top bevel (where it would be for an eastern backhand grip).

• Toss the ball where you normally would for flat serves. The 12 o'clock position works too and might even make the serve a safer one by providing truer topspin (due to the postioning of the ball to swing path) therefore increasing the margin for error.

• When you go to swing the racquet forward, hit through the ball like you would for a flat serve. Don't focus on brushing. Just focus on racquet head speed and generating pace (Don't muscle the ball of course. You always want to be loosey goosey.) . With the backhand/backhand-type grip, when you go to swing, in order to be able to contact the ball squarely you would be forced to be in a position that would -- with the correct swing path -- naturally produce topspin on the ball. You don't need to consciously think about pronation either. Just direct the racquet head through the appropriate path. You shouldn't have to think about hitting upwards, but more forwards rather (you never want to hit downwards! With the topspin, surely you will get a lot of netters.) Don't hold anything back, just go at it. Once you get the serve down, execution of the serve will be from your trained muscle memory combined with confidence -- basically, without hesitation, just unleashing on the ball and knowing it will go in.

Hope this helps.

P.S. - Now although for the power kicker serve I did not mention any clock faces for ball contact points, it's not that I don't advocate clock face visualizations but it's that only for that particular serve is when I don't see the contact points clock face as being a necessity because for that serve, it's a straight swing path similar to a flat serve. I, however, do think it helps to imagine the clockface for toss postions for all types of serves. Now for all other types of serves (topspin, slice, twist, reverse twist, reverse slice and whatever else you would like to invent, I do suggest imagining the clock face points for the swing path. Now I am not saying that one should go through the trouble to visualize a face directly on the ball, but rather one could be consciously aware of the direction in which they would like to coordinate the swing path for a given serve. That's pretty simple enough.

Good day now. 8)™
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Of course I forgot to mention the importance of using your entire body to initiate the forward swing -- that is:

stay on the tips of your toes or balls of your feet when serving; get a good hip stretch during and just after the toss and reach up as high as you can; bend your knees; when swinging forward, use your whole body without isolating your swing arm. etc. etc. etc.etc (fundamentals) etc. etc.

I am assuming you are already doing all of this and so I will not get into details. If you do not have the basics down then talk to Bungalo Bill or ask Marius Huncu for links.

Good day now. 8)
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Nadal also has a good power kicker but it obviously doesn't have as much pace as Roddick's. That is because Nadal uses a more extreme grip, plus I believe Andy is simply capable of generating more pace (As I'm sure many are aware, Roddick has one of the best and fastest average 2nd serves as a matter of fact.).

Good day now. 8)
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Andres Guazzelli said:
Around 110...
It's pretty much what Moodie, Karlovic and JJohansson are averaging ;)
Click to expand...
Mr Guazzelli, are you referring to "Joachim" Johansson or "Thomas" Johansson? Both have incredible serves.

Good day now. 8)
 
T

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
It is entirely possible to Muscle the ball and get a decent Power serve in. The club i play has 2 very good players and i have seen them many times muscle a ball usually when they are playing with weaker opponents. Even then the serve is good with decent power.
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Tennis_Monk said:
It is entirely possible to Muscle the ball and get a decent Power serve in. The club i play has 2 very good players and i have seen them many times muscle a ball usually when they are playing with weaker opponents. Even then the serve is good with decent power.
Click to expand...
I never said that it wasn't possible to muscle a ball and get decent power. I just suggested to use a loose arm. Why? If you study sports science then you would know that the use of the stretched eccentric muscles is much more efficient in generating power than tight contracted muscles.

I know that it is possible to muscle a ball and get some good power. That's what I had been doing when I first started playing tennis (And I'm sure plenty of people muscled balls when they first started out. In ,many cases, even after decades of playing tennis, club players and a lot of amatures still muscle the ball.).

The thing is, generally, utilizing the eccentric muscle stretch produces more consistency and efficient force than just muscling (you wouldn't be worn out as quickly as you would if you were utilizing the concentric contractions.)

Good day now. 8)
 
S

superbooga

Rookie
The key to power in any serve is racquet speed. And the key to racket speed has been mentioned many, many, times...pronation.

Now if you hold the racquet correctly, you will have to pronate just to hit the ball with the face of the racquet. You should pronate right before you strike the ball; in other words, the EDGE, not the face, of the racquet should approach the ball.

Many people don't pronate enough because they pronate at the start of the swing, making it unnoticeable. You lose a lot of racquet speed this way. Not only is the speed of the racquet a lot lower when it is the face that approaches the ball, the speed that pronation itself adds is lost.

The way I practice pronation is to do the serve swing motion without hitting a ball (I often do this at home, right before going to sleep). Do the motion slowly, with a forceful pronation. Then when you get onto the court, practice with a super-relaxed forearm. After a week or two, your serve power should dramatically improve.
 
T

The Extremist

New User
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

superbooga said:
The key to power in any serve is racquet speed. And the key to racket speed has been mentioned many, many, times...pronation.

Now if you hold the racquet correctly, you will have to pronate just to hit the ball with the face of the racquet. You should pronate right before you strike the ball; in other words, the EDGE, not the face, of the racquet should approach the ball.

Many people don't pronate enough because they pronate at the start of the swing, making it unnoticeable. You lose a lot of racquet speed this way. Not only is the speed of the racquet a lot lower when it is the face that approaches the ball, the speed that pronation itself adds is lost.

The way I practice pronation is to do the serve swing motion without hitting a ball (I often do this at home, right before going to sleep). Do the motion slowly, with a forceful pronation. Then when you get onto the court, practice with a super-relaxed forearm. After a week or two, your serve power should dramatically improve.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know.
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Freedom said:
Good day!

But TennisAsAlways...

I said Good Day!

lmao. :lol:
Click to expand...
I'm a bit confused. What do you mean when you said "'I' said Good Day"? You said it twice. And how and why is that so funny. Listen, I joke around all the time, but this I do not get. :neutral:

Good day now. 8)
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Roforot said:
I said Good Day!
Click to expand...
What are you saying? Are you saying that you are the first person to say that?.....that it's "your" orignal saying? If so, back off! It's my signature. You can take the phrase "good day" like how the Aussies say it, but "Good day now" is "my" saying. So if that was the case, back off. :p

P.S.- What's with the exaclamation mark? Hostility? Humor? Really.

Good day now. 8)™
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Is that where it came from?...Fez says "good day"? If so, I had no idea.

Hey people, is it true that Fez says "good day"?

Good day now. 8)
 
T

Tezuka Kunimitsu

Semi-Pro
superbooga said:
The key to power in any serve is racquet speed. And the key to racket speed has been mentioned many, many, times...pronation.

Now if you hold the racquet correctly, you will have to pronate just to hit the ball with the face of the racquet. You should pronate right before you strike the ball; in other words, the EDGE, not the face, of the racquet should approach the ball.

Many people don't pronate enough because they pronate at the start of the swing, making it unnoticeable. You lose a lot of racquet speed this way. Not only is the speed of the racquet a lot lower when it is the face that approaches the ball, the speed that pronation itself adds is lost.

The way I practice pronation is to do the serve swing motion without hitting a ball (I often do this at home, right before going to sleep). Do the motion slowly, with a forceful pronation. Then when you get onto the court, practice with a super-relaxed forearm. After a week or two, your serve power should dramatically improve.
Click to expand...


Okay, I am sorry for asking this. I have some many articles and threads on pronation and still do not really understand what pronation is and how to actually use it. I know it is stapping of the wrist when making contact with the ball. But I have read about palm out when pronating... and so one. How do YOU pronate. I am sorry for this question. with reading the forums I started stapping my wrist on my one hand backhand that i was trying to develop which lead to tennis elbow...because I was thursting my elbow as well. So can YOU please explain your pronate, step by step. T

Thank you
~Joe
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
^ I would take Marius Hancu's suggestion and read the thread by Sonicdeviant.
type.gif


Good day now. 8)
 
T

Tezuka Kunimitsu

Semi-Pro
TennisAsAlways said:
^ I would take Marius Hancu's suggestion and read the thread by Sonicdeviant.

Good day now. 8)
Click to expand...

I did read that thread.. I am still confused, right now I am trying to find a slow motion video (free) to watch.
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Tezuka Kunimitsu said:
I did read that thread.. I am still confused, right now I am trying to find a slow motion video (free) to watch.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I would explain it to you but I'm a bit lazy right now. Maybe next time if no one else gets to you. I'm sure someone will elaborate it for you. I'll make a close-up animated clip on how to pronate some time so that things could be seen more clearly.

Good day now. 8)
 
F

Freedom

Professional
Whenever Fez is upset, he says "Good Day" when he's leaving.

Then somebody tries to say something to him and he says "I said good day!" And he storms out.

He's from some weird imaginary country. In some early episodes he says where he's from but they cover up the name with like a truck rumbling by or something, I believe.
 
TennisAsAlways

TennisAsAlways

Professional
Freedom said:
Whenever Fez is upset, he says "Good Day" when he's leaving.

Then somebody tries to say something to him and he says "I said good day!" And he storms out.

He's from some weird imaginary country. In some early episodes he says where he's from but they cover up the name with like a truck rumbling by or something, I believe.
Click to expand...
AHHHha.
AykhanAvatar3.gif
(courtesy of Akhan)

Thanks for the explanation.

Good day now. 8)
 
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