SirSweetSpot
Banned
Man I wanna see some Stan Smith! What's the deal? All these other old-timers are well represented to some extent on YouTube except him. Is there some well-known lack of footage regarding this legend?
Lack of Stan Smith videos
- Thread starter SirSweetSpot
- Start date
StanSmith....
I remember watching him play and warmup around the late '70's. #1 on the US Wilson team then, kinda a loner (from his teamates), great reach at 6'4" or so, maybe 185lbs when I saw him, pure S'V style.
Wasn't the most athletic, was sorta a stiff, if that's possible for the #1 US player of that era. Very simple strokes, very traditional, like learned, not natural. Perfect textbook service motion...too perfect. Perfect posture....too perfect.
The only player I can think of with a somewhat similar style was PetrKorda, my all time favorite. Transpose the images and you have StanSmith....but Korda was more athletic and had a much less and short term career.
Naturally, being the big strong athlete I thought I was, I bought a set of StanSmith Autograph's as my first 3 rackets.....
I remember watching him play and warmup around the late '70's. #1 on the US Wilson team then, kinda a loner (from his teamates), great reach at 6'4" or so, maybe 185lbs when I saw him, pure S'V style.
Wasn't the most athletic, was sorta a stiff, if that's possible for the #1 US player of that era. Very simple strokes, very traditional, like learned, not natural. Perfect textbook service motion...too perfect. Perfect posture....too perfect.
The only player I can think of with a somewhat similar style was PetrKorda, my all time favorite. Transpose the images and you have StanSmith....but Korda was more athletic and had a much less and short term career.
Naturally, being the big strong athlete I thought I was, I bought a set of StanSmith Autograph's as my first 3 rackets.....
SirSweetSpot
Banned
I would kill to see Stan break out in a "scissor-kick."
I would love to analyze the Smith service motion. I heard it was almost a lazy motion...up until impact that is!:twisted:
I would love to analyze the Smith service motion. I heard it was almost a lazy motion...up until impact that is!:twisted:
Stan was 6'4", maybe a hair taller. He was considerably taller than ColinDibley.
Being that tall, the service motion looks decievingly slow, as the arms are soooo long and everything seems slow motion. But the leverage of the length gives all the pace needed.
At the TransAm fast serve constest, Stan did not enter. During the matches, his serves didn't nearly seem the fastest, but he was effective and moved in well, cutting off most angles and he could handle returns at his feet as well as anyone I''d seen. I think by the time I saw him live, he was near the end of his career, so probably blasted much harder serves when he was younger.
Being that tall, the service motion looks decievingly slow, as the arms are soooo long and everything seems slow motion. But the leverage of the length gives all the pace needed.
At the TransAm fast serve constest, Stan did not enter. During the matches, his serves didn't nearly seem the fastest, but he was effective and moved in well, cutting off most angles and he could handle returns at his feet as well as anyone I''d seen. I think by the time I saw him live, he was near the end of his career, so probably blasted much harder serves when he was younger.
SirSweetSpot
Banned
Lee did Stan employ a pinpoint or a platform stance? Or an old-school "slide" with the right foot?
My brother actually has a series of photography flip books from the 1970s. There is one on the serve, FH, BH, FH volley, BH volley, and scissor kick overhead. There was 2 different camera angels, just turn the book on the reverse side. It was very ingenious for the time. You could just flip the pages at any rate you want to analyze his strokes.
I think Stan Smith and Vitas Gerulaitis probably had text book form because their strokes seemed to always be used as examples in Tennis magazine at the time.
I think Stan Smith and Vitas Gerulaitis probably had text book form because their strokes seemed to always be used as examples in Tennis magazine at the time.
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SirSS....
I never noticed! I can't really replicate his motion or stance, as I'm 5'11" and maybe 135 lbs in those days. I needed a motion which could move the ball up to A levels, that's why you'd notice, I said I looked at Smiths AND Tanner's serves.
Smiths motion would bore me to death, and being so short, have no ball speed.
Tanner's motion would destroy my ligaments and tendons, but the ball would step right out and hurt the netcord.
I had to find my own motion, and until Korda came around, nobody was close. Korda was 6'3" tall.
I never noticed! I can't really replicate his motion or stance, as I'm 5'11" and maybe 135 lbs in those days. I needed a motion which could move the ball up to A levels, that's why you'd notice, I said I looked at Smiths AND Tanner's serves.
Smiths motion would bore me to death, and being so short, have no ball speed.
Tanner's motion would destroy my ligaments and tendons, but the ball would step right out and hurt the netcord.
I had to find my own motion, and until Korda came around, nobody was close. Korda was 6'3" tall.
A long time ago there was a video series showing that. It was called Sybervision or Cybervision. I think you can still get it. It has serve and overhead, one handed backhand, etc..
pc1
G.O.A.T.
This is all I can find for videos on Stan Smith that shows him playing.
http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video/CAF95051528/tennis-goven-smith.fr.html
http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video/CAF95051528/tennis-goven-smith.fr.html
SirSweetSpot
Banned
^^ Great link pc...thanks a lot!
Stan conducts a 4-day Thanksgiving special every November at his Sea Pines Resort, Hilton Head, S.C.
Last year, the 1st day was a welcome party with Stan. 2nd day was a 3 hour group lesson with him. 3rd day was another 3 hour lesson, then an exhibition featuring Stan, then Thanksgiving dinner at his house! The 4th day was one last 3 hour lesson. $729 per person, lodging not included.
Last year, the 1st day was a welcome party with Stan. 2nd day was a 3 hour group lesson with him. 3rd day was another 3 hour lesson, then an exhibition featuring Stan, then Thanksgiving dinner at his house! The 4th day was one last 3 hour lesson. $729 per person, lodging not included.
Heck the guy he was playing was tiny. Try approach shots like that in today's game. LOL suicide.
No I meant that style of play is dead at the pro level.
I picked up an excellent Stan Smith VHS video over 10 years ago at a closeout store for a few dollars. It really analyzed his strokes and repeated them over and over at different speeds. I did a google search and it is now on DVD. A repackaged set for a pricey $70
http://www.sybervision.com/Tennis/index.htm
The original VHS is still available for $5
http://www.amazon.com/Stan-Smith-Perfect-Form-Tennis/dp/B0007Y6NU0
http://www.sybervision.com/Tennis/index.htm
The original VHS is still available for $5
http://www.amazon.com/Stan-Smith-Perfect-Form-Tennis/dp/B0007Y6NU0
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pmerk...
Seriously, are you 17 years old...or younger?
The reason S'V is not played today is that all the youngsters who grew up playing tennis from the '80's thru present are taught and encouraged to baseline bash with SW to W grips, never approach the net, and play percentage tennis.
That is the reason S/V is seen so little nowadaze.
Now go look at vids of Isner, Querry, Karlovic, Celic, and Ancic.
Seriously, are you 17 years old...or younger?
The reason S'V is not played today is that all the youngsters who grew up playing tennis from the '80's thru present are taught and encouraged to baseline bash with SW to W grips, never approach the net, and play percentage tennis.
That is the reason S/V is seen so little nowadaze.
Now go look at vids of Isner, Querry, Karlovic, Celic, and Ancic.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Actually you can pick up a Stan Smith video.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Wimbledon-1972-1977-Ilie-Nastase/dp/B00004CI8X
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Wimbledon-1972-1977-Ilie-Nastase/dp/B00004CI8X
He had a 'windmill' motion on his serve, absolutely no resemblance to Korda's action (couldn't get more different).
Smith's groundstrokes were absolutely nothing like Korda's either. Smith had very simple strokes - straight back and through the line of the ball. Korda had much more elaborate and far more graceful strokes.
If Lee can see any similarity between the two players it certainly isn't in the technique, the application or the temperament. Transpose the images and you've got two wholly different images.
Datacipher
Banned
Sirsweetspot, please be careful asking questions of LeeD, look up some of our past exchanges. He either lies, or simply doesn't know what he's talking about, he frequently make mistakes in basic facts about things like height and weight (though he seems obsessed by them) and clearly has no understanding of biomechanics.
Smith has actually written a lot of good basic instruction articles for tennis magazines/ books in the 80's and 90's. There's a also a very clean video he made with Arthur Ashe and Vic Braden "tennis our way".
The types of modern player who actually reminded me a bit of Smith are players like Todd Martin. Now, Martin had the two hander, but technically, his techniques were simple, unflourished, plain, but very sound, and very effective. Great role models in that sense, relatively easy to emulate, and ones any player would do well to copy.
One interesting catch is that Jack Groppel claimed Smith had an unseen flaw in his serve, in that his wrist did not lay back at the proper point during his forward swing, and that this, caused Smith great injury until it was detected on high speed film (nobody coudl see it with the blind eye). I'm actually a touch skeptical about the claim (not that it was made up but that perhaps it was embellished a tad), but it's an interesting one.
and don't ask too many specifics on Smith....
I watched him play around my 3rd year in tennis, and as such, was still evolving my game and didn't understand pinpoint-platform and didn't care to.
Data... is correct, my long term memory is not all that precise. Is yours? Talking mid '70s.
As for Korda vs Smith styled. Did you not read my statement of Smith's style being too boring, thus I added Tanner's style in there? And saying Korda's was close to my idea in no way references Smith or Tanner's style. No connection whatsover.
Korda's style is still more basic and straightforward than what I use. Yes, he is lightyears better than I ever hope to be.
I watched him play around my 3rd year in tennis, and as such, was still evolving my game and didn't understand pinpoint-platform and didn't care to.
Data... is correct, my long term memory is not all that precise. Is yours? Talking mid '70s.
As for Korda vs Smith styled. Did you not read my statement of Smith's style being too boring, thus I added Tanner's style in there? And saying Korda's was close to my idea in no way references Smith or Tanner's style. No connection whatsover.
Korda's style is still more basic and straightforward than what I use. Yes, he is lightyears better than I ever hope to be.
Datacipher
Banned
The problem Lee is that you state your faulty memory (or questionable impressions) as fact. You've made factually incorrect statements. You've also done this when it comes to tennis instruction. I really don't care, but I see it, I might take the time to correct it.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Wood rackets my friend. Anyway, I think Smith could play a lot better than that. The video definitely didn't look impression and I can see why you write that. However remember Smith beat Connors in 1974 and greats like Newcombe, Rosewall, Ashe and others.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
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SirSweetSpot
Banned
Very interesting comparison regarding Martin.
Did Stan have a head-to-head record against Laver? Did these 2 meet very often?
Thanks a LOT Hoodjem for that link! I see that Stan has beaten Laver a few times...I wonder what the overall H2H is though.
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
The ever-dubious ATP website says that the H2H is 6-6.
1974 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet Q Smith, Stan
6-7(6), 6-4, 6-4, 7-5
1973 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet S Smith, Stan
4-6, 6-4, 7-6(2), 7-5
1973 Brussels WCT
Brussels Carpet F Smith, Stan
6-2, 6-4, 6-1
1973 St. Louis WCT
MO, USA Carpet F Smith, Stan
6-4, 3-6, 6-4
1973 Atlanta WCT
GA, USA Clay F Smith, Stan
6-3, 6-4
1973 Toronto WCT
Ontario, Canada Carpet S Laver, Rod
4-6, 6-3, 7-6(4)
1971 Rome
Italy Clay Q Laver, Rod
6-1, 2-6, 6-2
1970 Masters
Japan Carpet F Smith, Stan
4-6, 6-3, 6-4
1970 Los Angeles
CA, USA Hard Q Laver, Rod
6-3, 4-6, 6-1
1969 Wimbledon
England Grass R16 Laver, Rod
6-4, 6-2, 7-9, 3-6, 6-3
1969 Roland Garros
France Clay R16 Laver, Rod
6-4, 6-2, 6-4
1968 Wimbledon
England Grass R64 Laver, Rod
6-3, 6-4, 6-4
1974 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet Q Smith, Stan
6-7(6), 6-4, 6-4, 7-5
1973 Dallas WCT
TX, U.S.A. Carpet S Smith, Stan
4-6, 6-4, 7-6(2), 7-5
1973 Brussels WCT
Brussels Carpet F Smith, Stan
6-2, 6-4, 6-1
1973 St. Louis WCT
MO, USA Carpet F Smith, Stan
6-4, 3-6, 6-4
1973 Atlanta WCT
GA, USA Clay F Smith, Stan
6-3, 6-4
1973 Toronto WCT
Ontario, Canada Carpet S Laver, Rod
4-6, 6-3, 7-6(4)
1971 Rome
Italy Clay Q Laver, Rod
6-1, 2-6, 6-2
1970 Masters
Japan Carpet F Smith, Stan
4-6, 6-3, 6-4
1970 Los Angeles
CA, USA Hard Q Laver, Rod
6-3, 4-6, 6-1
1969 Wimbledon
England Grass R16 Laver, Rod
6-4, 6-2, 7-9, 3-6, 6-3
1969 Roland Garros
France Clay R16 Laver, Rod
6-4, 6-2, 6-4
1968 Wimbledon
England Grass R64 Laver, Rod
6-3, 6-4, 6-4
SirSweetSpot
Banned
Wow...lots of meetings on carpet. I can envision Stan being a BEAST on fast indoor carpet.
Then again I bet Laver wasn't too shabby on that surface either.:twisted:
Then again I bet Laver wasn't too shabby on that surface either.:twisted:
A beast? The way they hit back then? Let's think of a more Genteel term.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvpckZmLaEc&feature=related
Pretty decent hitting here. Not exactly genteel.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I know. I put it in just to point it wasn't soft hitting in those days.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I know a number of people who think Roche at his best may very well have been better than a number of all time greats. It's a pity injuries hurt his career.
In the head to head above at least 5 meetings are missing.
Smith beat Laver in a Las Vegas 2nd round match October 1969 on hard court,
and Laver beat Smith 4 times more, in the 4th rubber of the Davis Cup final at Cleveland end 1973 on carpet in 4 sets, and twice at the Hilton Head tournament on har tru in 1973/74, and one time at the Aetna World Cup in 1974. That makes the head to head 10-7 in favor of the older Laver.
Smith was the first pro since 1963, who beat the 34 years old Laver in a long tournament series in spring 1973 on the WCT tour, when he played his best tennis ever, but faded away afterwards.
Smith beat Laver in a Las Vegas 2nd round match October 1969 on hard court,
and Laver beat Smith 4 times more, in the 4th rubber of the Davis Cup final at Cleveland end 1973 on carpet in 4 sets, and twice at the Hilton Head tournament on har tru in 1973/74, and one time at the Aetna World Cup in 1974. That makes the head to head 10-7 in favor of the older Laver.
Smith was the first pro since 1963, who beat the 34 years old Laver in a long tournament series in spring 1973 on the WCT tour, when he played his best tennis ever, but faded away afterwards.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I saw a lot of that series on television. Laver had some back problems I believe but Smith was playing great and was being calling the heir to Laver.
I think Newcombe and Connors took away a lot from Smith's confidence and I have a hunch he may have had some injury problems that hurt his serve.
Jack Kramer was of the opinion the new clay court circuit hurt Smith also.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Smith's game was honed for grass, not clay, so his best results were S&V on fast surfaces, like grass or hard-court. Laver was superior on clay. Also factor in their ages.
As the H2H results suggest, Laver won on those faster surfaces when he was younger but declined as he moved to his later 30s--and this is when Smith overtook him.
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pc1
G.O.A.T.
The matches between the two from 1973 on were interesting because Laver declined and Smith was at his peak. Laver hated Smith's great backhand overhead and to this day I think it may be the best backhand overhead I've seen. Laver got back in shape late in 1973 for the Davis Cup and smashed Smith on grass. Smith played very well in two matches against Laver and Newcombe and lost both. Laver was fantastic in that match against Smith.
In the doubles Newcombe told Laver to really drive Smith's first serve back. Newcombe wrote in his book it was the best backhand return he had ever seen. It demoralized van Dillen and Smith. Laver and Newcombe destroyed them in straight sets.
The best performance Smith may have ever had was against the Romanians in the Davis Cup on clay against Nastase (at his peak) and Tiriac in Romanian. Smith won both singles and the doubles despite the fact he was a heavy underdog to Nastase on clay.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3128143
jeffreyneave
Rookie
smith/laver
laver also beat smith in a one set match in 1976 at the wct tournament in houston. WCt had a consolation singles event for first round losers in 1976 and the matches were played on a one set basis to 10 games.
jeffrey
laver also beat smith in a one set match in 1976 at the wct tournament in houston. WCt had a consolation singles event for first round losers in 1976 and the matches were played on a one set basis to 10 games.
jeffrey
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Good job Jeffrey. Amusing that big names like Laver and Smith would meet in a consolation match for first round losers. Thank goodness they don't have consolation matches anymore.
SirSweetSpot
Banned
Per Wikipedia...
"Smith played collegiate tennis at the University of Southern California, where he was a three-time All-American and won the 1968 NCAA singles championship and the 1967 and 1968 doubles titles.
In 2005, TENNIS Magazine put Smith in 35th place in its list of 40 Greatest Players of the TENNIS era."
He is 36-19 in singles finals.
He is 54-27 in doubles finals.
"Smith played collegiate tennis at the University of Southern California, where he was a three-time All-American and won the 1968 NCAA singles championship and the 1967 and 1968 doubles titles.
In 2005, TENNIS Magazine put Smith in 35th place in its list of 40 Greatest Players of the TENNIS era."
He is 36-19 in singles finals.
He is 54-27 in doubles finals.
I think Vilas had a much better backhand smash - more powerful (not surprising, given how ridiculously strong he was). But, I do remember Tony Trabert, when he got a backhand smash inside the service box, could hit it with so much power he could bounce the ball over the back fence. If you don't think that sounds impressive, give it a try.... with a wooden racquet (even with graphite it's incredibly hard to do).
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