Line calling issue on clay

[mikej]

I've played a fair amount on clay and at least on the clay here, the ball definitely doesn't always leave a mark. So no, just because I can't find a mark doesn't mean I'm conceding my call.

I’ll also reply to this fair comment - depends on the level you’re playing / type of shot - have you ever seen the chair umpire at an ATP event on clay decide the ball didn’t leave a mark? Sorry, Roger, call stands, your serve simply didn’t leave a mark

If I’m playing 4.5-5.0 level tennis and I hit a well-struck ground stroke or serve that lands along the sideline or service line, there’s a mark, yes, every. single. time. (I haven’t encountered an exception on my side of the court in 25 years of tennis - the other side of the court I suspect performs similarly!)

If I hit a drop shot or soft lob, or a groundstroke that lands where you’re shuffling around the whole point in the middle of the baseline, no problem if there’s not an obvious mark - I won’t ask generally in these instances

 

[FIRETennis]

https://www.nfhs.org/media/1019875/2019-friend-at-court.pdf

Incorrect. This is what the rules say in The Code:

There is nothing in the rules about overturning calls if there is no mark at all. Furthermore, The Code says that you cannot inspect marks on my side and I am not obliged to show you one. Those are the rules.

Those are the USTA rules.
For example Tennis Canada rules state the opposite:

"TC Note: In a match played without a chair umpire on a clay court, a player can ask the opponent(s) to show the mark and then cross to the other side of the net to check the mark. Note, however, that in a match played with a chair umpire a player cannot cross the net to check the mark. (This is the responsibility of the chair umpire.) To do so constitutes a Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct."

ITF Rules of Tennis do not even mention anything about checking the mark in unofficiated matches.

 

[navigator]

I’ll also reply to this fair comment - depends on the level you’re playing / type of shot - have you ever seen the chair umpire at an ATP event on clay decide the ball didn’t leave a mark? Sorry, Roger, call stands, your serve simply didn’t leave a mark

If I’m playing 4.5-5.0 level tennis and I hit a well-struck ground stroke or serve that lands along the sideline or service line, there’s a mark, yes, every. single. time. (I haven’t encountered an exception on my side of the court in 25 years of tennis - the other side of the court I suspect performs similarly!)

If I hit a drop shot or soft lob, or a groundstroke that lands where you’re shuffling around the whole point in the middle of the baseline, no problem if there’s not an obvious mark - I won’t ask generally in these instances

I suspect that 80%+ of rec clay court line disputes involve the baseline, where the clay gets mucked up pretty quickly and the marks/bounces are not so obvious. I agree that with a recently-swept court you're going to see a mark almost every time around the service line and side lines. Having said that... I still wouldn't bother questioning a call. If I saw the mark, I'd just say, "Hey, that was in, there's the mark, but it's your point. No big deal."

 

[navigator]

This!!!!! I can't force you to show me the mark and I can't force you oblige me, but if I think you're making poor calls (not willing to show the mark for example), then I'm calling an umpire for the rest of the match and you're going to miraculously start making better calls or get overturned by the umpire. I've experienced this first hand multiple times and the result has always been the same.

I've never called for an umpire, nor had an umpire called, for any match in which I was involved. I've played many matches where there was an umpire already in the chair, but that's a separate issue, obviously. In the very few instances - out of hundreds of tournament/etc matches - in which I had even a minor issue with an opponent I would just soften them up with kindness/indifference and the issue would go away. If they question a call (and it's actually close) I just give them the point. If I think they made an obviously bad call, I'd just say, "I think that was in, but take the point. No biggee." Generally, zero issues after that. Most "problem" players can be shamed into good behavior on the court if you handle it correctly.

 

[zipplock]

I've never called for an umpire, nor had an umpire called, for any match in which I was involved. I've played many matches where there was an umpire already in the chair, but that's a separate issue, obviously. In the very few instances - out of hundreds of tournament/etc matches - in which I had even a minor issue with an opponent I would just soften them up with kindness/indifference and the issue would go away. If they question a call (and it's actually close) I just give them the point. If I think they made an obviously bad call, I'd just say, "I think that was in, but take the point. No biggee." Generally, zero issues after that. Most "problem" players can be shamed into good behavior on the court if you handle it correctly.

I agree this is what usually happens, but not always. I generally let the first one slide with just a "look". Next time I generally will say something like "you sure, I think that was in" and see what they say. After that if no change I'll call for a line judge. If I'm paying for a league or tournament I don't want to lose because of shenanigans. You beat me, no problem. You cheat me, no way.

 

[navigator]

have you played tournaments on clay?

do you know that the rules clearly say that the ball is in play until proven otherwise?
so if you can't show me a mark that is out, the ball is in play and the point is mine as long as we are discussing clay.

I've played tournaments on clay in over a dozen different countries in the last three years and I regret to inform you that your interpretation of the rules is incorrect.

 

[navigator]

I agree this is what usually happens, but not always. I generally let the first one slide with just a "look". Next time I generally will say something like "you sure, I think that was in" and see what they say. After that if no change I'll call for a line judge. If I'm paying for a league or tournament I don't want to lose because of shenanigans. You beat me, no problem. You cheat me, no way.

I hear what you're saying. No one likes to get cheated, regardless of the situation. My issue is... I just can't be bothered - the outcome is too trivial. Life's too short.

 

[zipplock]

I hear what you're saying. No one likes to get cheated, regardless of the situation. My issue is... I just can't be bothered - the outcome is too trivial. Life's too short.

You're probably right...

 

[Dartagnan64]

Only time I get fussed over line calls is playing my wife. Mostly because I want her to be a better line caller so I get on her case. I don't wnat rumors going around that my spouse is a notorious hooker. Sadly she's bad both ways. Plays too many balls that are clearly out and calls too many in balls as out. Just never focuses on the landing spot. So I get on her case.

TBH, I rarely see this hooking phenomenon that people fuss about on this forum. Maybe because I don't fuss much and I always call my side generously, I tend to see fair play in return.

 

[blablavla]

I've played tournaments on clay in over a dozen different countries in the last three years and I regret to inform you that your interpretation of the rules is incorrect.

it's been a long time since I needed assistance from a tournament official to rule out a situation on court, if I ever needed of course.
so, you might have fresh experience unlike me.

In the recent years, I faced mostly people that wouldn't escalate such things.
Moreover, everyone makes mistakes and line calling isn't different.
My experience was that taking the "soft" way is a much better way to solve a given situation and to have both players enjoy the match.
Typically something like: "Could you take a second look? ok, thanks, your side - your decision". This usually eliminates the tension and opponents tend to become generous with their calls.
It is not just a competition, but as well a social thing, and where I live and play it is an unwritten rule that after the match the winner buys a beer to both players and they chat over the beer.
So why spoil this with bad calling & cheating? you probably don't want people to avoid you.
And starting with a high enough ranking, probably something like the top 3% of players, the rules command an umpire. Which again leads to the question that was asked earlier, if at the beginning of the match there is no umpire, does it make sense to escalate such situation and call the officials?

Now, from my younger days.
Well, I shared my experience, which comes not only as a kid playing tennis, but much broader in tennis.
Glad for all the people here that experienced situations when there is no mark on a clay surface and their call stands.
Keep my fingers crossed that their experience doesn't turn-around and doesn't translate into some psychological traumas.
As someone mentioned above, and as I wrote, I have yet to see a situation when there is no mark on a clay court.
And I have yet to see a situation when the official comes and confirms that the call stands in a disputed situation and there is no mark.

 

[Matthew ATX]

@Matthew ATX please enlighten how it works on clay.
let's say we are playing without umpire.
it's beginning of the match, so the court is fresh -> not many other marks you could choose to just show any mark.
you call out -> I ask you to show the mark, but there is no mark.
So I say point is mine, you say that point is yours.
We call the tournament official.

please enlighten me how the official will be making the judgement.

You posted how it works in your first sentence. The ball is in play until it is called out. The ball is not still in play after it is called out, sitting in the corner by the fence, while you're arguing over the call looking for the mark.

 

[Doctah]

You posted how it works in your first sentence. The ball is in play until it is called out. The ball is not still in play after it is called out, sitting in the corner by the fence, while you're arguing over the call looking for the mark.

100% agree. The point is over when the ball is called out.

 

[Matthew ATX]

I’ll also reply to this fair comment - depends on the level you’re playing / type of shot - have you ever seen the chair umpire at an ATP event on clay decide the ball didn’t leave a mark? Sorry, Roger, call stands, your serve simply didn’t leave a mark

Well, the courts I play on aren't in the immaculate condition of Roland Garros, haha. There can be thin/tamped down spots depending on court assignment, especially on the red clay ones. Also, at the rec level, we're not sweeping/dragging the court between sets or anything (you touch on the traffic in the next bit.)

If I’m playing 4.5-5.0 level tennis and I hit a well-struck ground stroke or serve that lands along the sideline or service line, there’s a mark, yes, every. single. time. (I haven’t encountered an exception on my side of the court in 25 years of tennis - the other side of the court I suspect performs similarly!)

If I hit a drop shot or soft lob, or a groundstroke that lands where you’re shuffling around the whole point in the middle of the baseline, no problem if there’s not an obvious mark - I won’t ask generally in these instances

Fair distinction. Balls in the lesser trafficked area will certainly be more likely to leave a mark that can be found.

 

[blablavla]

100% agree. The point is over when the ball is called out.

are you 2 like those ladies that do everything together, even going to the toilet?
or is it the same person posting from 2 accounts to create more supporting opinions?

 

[blablavla]

You posted how it works in your first sentence. The ball is in play until it is called out. The ball is not still in play after it is called out, sitting in the corner by the fence, while you're arguing over the call looking for the mark.

wrong answer.
try again.

tip.
the question was:
"please enlighten me how the official will be making the judgement."

another tip.
a tournament official shall be referring to rules and regulations

 

[speedysteve]

LTA (UK) advice on their website.

When disputes occur within official competitions it’s important that they are handled in a fair, consistent and efficient manner. The following steps detail how to settle disputes.

Dealing with line call disputes (clay courts):
Ask the player if they ‘have the mark’ and ask the opponent if they agree on the mark.
If there is no mark, deal with the dispute:
Ask the player whose call it was, if they are sure of their call.
-If yes, the call stands.
-If no, then the point should be replayed.

If they agree on a mark, you should “read it” to decide whether the ball was in or out.
If they do not agree on the mark, ask what type of shot was played (ie. smash, crosscourt shot, down the
line shot, etc).
If a mark in the vicinity tallies with the shot description, you should accept it and award the point
accordingly.
If you are unable to find a mark, then the original call stands.

Next Gen Year end tournament automatic line calls can't come soon enough [emoji1787]

 

[kevrol]

3rd set tiebreak last night up 3-2 I hit a ball down the line that is 75% out but hits the line. I'm looking right at it. Opponent of course calls it out from the other side of the court and his partner at the net who had his back to the ball when it hit in of course backed up his partner's call. I ask them to inspect the mark, they go 3 feet from where the ball landed and say, "here it is." I tell them that's not where the ball hit and they find another one about a 2 feet away and say "here it is." We change ends and of course the mark is right there on the line. Lesson to all, just because you can ask them to inspect the mark, just know you're still not gonna get the call. Also a good idea to clear any marks that could possibly be used against you later.

 

[speedysteve]

Yeah, have the court swept every point [emoji3]

 

[Doctah]

are you 2 like those ladies that do everything together, even going to the toilet?
or is it the same person posting from 2 accounts to create more supporting opinions?

and you are that ****** bag that wants to inspect every close call because you saw it "in" from your side of the court

 

[mikej]

3rd set tiebreak last night up 3-2 I hit a ball down the line that is 75% out but hits the line. I'm looking right at it. Opponent of course calls it out from the other side of the court and his partner at the net who had his back to the ball when it hit in of course backed up his partner's call. I ask them to inspect the mark, they go 3 feet from where the ball landed and say, "here it is." I tell them that's not where the ball hit and they find another one about a 2 feet away and say "here it is." We change ends and of course the mark is right there on the line. Lesson to all, just because you can ask them to inspect the mark, just know you're still not gonna get the call. Also a good idea to clear any marks that could possibly be used against you later.

Sure, they might not correct that call, but they’ll know why I called their second serve out later in the TB when it was several inches in then circled some random mark

95ish% of matches I have no line call disputes, but the other 5% I don’t let myself get taken advantage of

I think it’s wonderful that there are some people who can shrug such things off and say “whatever, this isn’t the pro tour and our livelihoods don’t depend on this result” - good for them - but I personally prefer to stand up for myself when faced with those in life who take advantage, on the tennis court or professionally

 

[navigator]

Sure, they might not correct that call, but they’ll know why I called their second serve out later in the TB when it was several inches in then circled some random mark

95ish% of matches I have no line call disputes, but the other 5% I don’t let myself get taken advantage of

I think it’s wonderful that there are some people who can shrug such things off and say “whatever, this isn’t the pro tour and our livelihoods don’t depend on this result” - good for them - but I personally prefer to stand up for myself when faced with those in life who take advantage, on the tennis court or professionally

But that's just it... "on the tennis court" and "professionally" have absolutely nothing to do with each other here. "On the tennis court" is just meaningless rec bullsh!t. "Professionally" - or things relating to family, friends, health, etc - is important. Clearly, you're having issues distinguishing between the two. Life's too short not to pick your battles. Anyhow, nobody wins in these disputes - even the party in the right gets dragged into the gutter. Both folks end up looking like immature tools - the guy cheating... for cheating; the guy disputing... for arguing over something so trivial.

 

[mikej]

Clearly, you're having issues distinguishing between the two. Life's too short not to pick your battles.

If you think everyone has to pick the same battles in life, you're the confused one. If my team and I are enjoying the competition of USTA sectionals or something of the sort, and run into someone trying to hook their way past us, that's a battle worth fighting to me. I'd enjoy another weekend of battling with friends at nationals, etc, and while I'm fine losing out on that to better players, I'm not fine rolling over to someone who decides to cheat me in a deciding TB (a common occurrence in the USTA system, where split sets --> deciding breaker, and yes individual calls and points matter when it comes down to a few points).

If you sleep better at night letting such things go, great. I think that's a nice personality trait, and wouldn't tell you to live your life differently. I'd personally lose more sleep over letting myself get taken advantage of. If I instead make the occasional cheater's life hell by showing them I have tricks up my sleeve also when warranted, and see where the cards fall, I can rest easy and laugh about it over a beer afterwards. You should see the look on one of these habitual cheater's faces when they get a taste of their own medicine. It's always a good story.

 

[FIRETennis]

yeah, I don't think resorting to cheating on my end would be a good solution to bad calls from the opponent.

 

[penpal]

Where I play, 99% of my matches are on hard court. There is one clay court facility though, and I've grown to dislike playing there. As a predominantly hard court player, I am simply unaccustomed to paying attention to marks. It isn't something we need to do on hard courts, and so I am not trained to pay that close of attention to precisely where the ball landed. As such, I'm often not 100% certain which mark is the correct mark - and there's been more than one time when I couldn't find any mark at all (and I am confident the ball didn't land directly on the line). The players who play regularly at the clay court facility, however, seem to always try to require me to find a mark. Like navigator, I'm happy to concede a challenged call - I'm more interested in having fun and sincerely believe that a point here or there isn't likely to be the ultimate difference in the match. Still, there's a feeling of being put on the spot, and when I'm unable to find a mark it seems to make my opponent feel like I'm trying to cheat him.

All in all, the game just feels much more friendly and comfortable to me on hard courts. I'm sure it's the exact opposite for those who play primarily on clay courts. My main point being that for me personally, I hope clay court players will understand my inexperience, especially when playing in a tournament where players from other clubs are invited to play.

 

[FIRETennis]

Where I play, 99% of my matches are on hard court. There is one clay court facility though, and I've grown to dislike playing there. As a predominantly hard court player, I am simply unaccustomed to paying attention to marks. It isn't something we need to do on hard courts, and so I am not trained to pay that close of attention to precisely where the ball landed. As such, I'm often not 100% certain which mark is the correct mark - and there's been more than one time when I couldn't find any mark at all (and I am confident the ball didn't land directly on the line). The players who play regularly at the clay court facility, however, seem to always try to require me to find a mark. Like navigator, I'm happy to concede a challenged call - I'm more interested in having fun and sincerely believe that a point here or there isn't likely to be the ultimate difference in the match. Still, there's a feeling of being put on the spot, and when I'm unable to find a mark it seems to make my opponent feel like I'm trying to cheat him.

All in all, the game just feels much more friendly and comfortable to me on hard courts. I'm sure it's the exact opposite for those who play primarily on clay courts. My main point being that for me personally, I hope clay court players will understand my inexperience, especially when playing in a tournament where players from other clubs are invited to play.

Uhm why would playing on hard court not require you to pay close attention to where the ball lands? Isn’t that what you need to do in order to make a correct in/out call on any surface?

 

[penpal]

Uhm why would playing on hard court not require you to pay close attention to where the ball lands? Isn’t that what you need to do in order to make a correct in/out call on any surface?

That's a fair question. What I learned after playing on clay was that, while I do watch the ball to determine if it's in or out when playing on a hard court, my brain pretty much discards the details as to where it landed as soon as I've made my decision. For example, if it's a serve I could say generally that I saw it long and it landed closer to the sideline than the center line, but to identify exactly where the ball hit would be difficult for me. Again, I think it's a learned thing - as someone who learned to play on hard courts, I've simply never needed to concern myself with the "exact" location of the ball strike on the court. And, in fact, my brain has probably learned that the better strategy is to make the call quickly, discard unneeded information such as where, precisely the ball landed, and concentrate on my shot.

 

[FIRETennis]

That's a fair question. What I learned after playing on clay was that, while I do watch the ball to determine if it's in or out when playing on a hard court, my brain pretty much discards the details as to where it landed as soon as I've made my decision. For example, if it's a serve I could say generally that I saw it long and it landed closer to the sideline than the center line, but to identify exactly where the ball hit would be difficult for me. Again, I think it's a learned thing - as someone who learned to play on hard courts, I've simply never needed to concern myself with the "exact" location of the ball strike on the court. And, in fact, my brain has probably learned that the better strategy is to make the call quickly, discard unneeded information such as where, precisely the ball landed, and concentrate on my shot.

Interesting approach.
When I do play hard courts, such as Rebound Ace, with fresh balls, the balls actually do leave a mark (amongst many just like clay).

So when your opponent asks if you are sure of the call, you cannot say with certainty that you are, and you rescind the call in favor of your opponent if it was a shot within an inch or so of the line?

 

[penpal]

Interesting approach.
When I do play hard courts, such as Rebound Ace, with fresh balls, the balls actually do leave a mark (amongst many just like clay).

So when your opponent asks if you are sure of the call, you cannot say with certainty that you are, and you rescind the call in favor of your opponent if it was a shot within an inch or so of the line?

If it's close, I play it. I'll only call a ball out that I am certain is out. On the rare occasions that a heavy top-spin fooled my eyes and I made a call too quickly, I change it myself prior to being asked to change it. At the end of the day, winning is less important to me than having fun and sleeping well at night.

Likewise, if someone asks me to check a mark on clay, I'll typically just give them the point (unless I actually am able to find a mark that I believe to be the correct mark - "certainty" there though is also a dicey proposition).

Line calling issues rarely come up in my matches. I was just trying to point out that, unless a person is accustomed to playing on clay and being attentive to marks, finding them isn't as easy as some might believe.

 

[FIRETennis]

If it's close, I play it. I'll only call a ball out that I am certain is out. On the rare occasions that a heavy top-spin fooled my eyes and I made a call too quickly, I change it myself prior to being asked to change it. At the end of the day, winning is less important to me than having fun and sleeping well at night.

Likewise, if someone asks me to check a mark on clay, I'll typically just give them the point (unless I actually am able to find a mark that I believe to be the correct mark - "certainty" there though is also a dicey proposition).

Line calling issues rarely come up in my matches. I was just trying to point out that, unless a person is accustomed to playing on clay and being attentive to marks, finding them isn't as easy as some might believe.

*thumbs up* Playing the close calls really does make it more fun and exciting as long as both sides of the net do it!

 

[Doctah]

Line calling issues rarely come up in my matches.

This. I can't think of a time I asked my opponent to show me a mark or if they were sure it was out. On occasion i will ask how much i missed by but that is usually in a friendly match. When someone makes a bad call i just move on.

 

[zaskar1]

FT
on clay, although i rarely play on it, from my experience, the ball always leaves a mark
unless it hits a line. if these people are consistently "hooking" you, dont play with them anymore, or
if its a tournament, or something that is official, get a line judge.
we have the same problem in usta league, where certain "known" opponents have a reputation for "making bad calls"
we ask for a line judge even before we start playing.
that will usually stop it
z

 

[bob]

I think most of us agree on:
1. You can ask your opponent if he is sure of is call.
2. You can ask your opponent to check the mark
3. You or your opponent can call a ball out (and the call stands) even if a mark can't be found.
4. Player "A" can ask their opponent (Player B) if they (Player A) can check the mark. Player B can refuse this request.

IMHO once players are inspecting marks on the other side of the net it is time to get the tournament referee or if not a tournament time to play someone else.

 

[Doctah]

"time to play someone else"

exactly

 

[bob]

Question about marks on clay:

1. Assume you can see the mark close to the line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. I would call this out. Correct?

2. Assume you can see the mark close to the base line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. The mark is 1/2 the size of the ball. If the ball landed in the center of the mark then the outside edge of the ball would be over the baseline. Is this ball in or out?

 

[Chalkdust]

I witnessed something this morning apropos of this thread. USTA juniors tournament going on at the club, and I hung around to watch a bit. Looked to be 16/17 year old males, probably 4.5 maybe low 5.0 level. Clay courts.

Anyway... player A serves, ball looks well in to me standing just outside the court - like a few inches in. Player B calls it out. Player A is incredulous and asks to be shown the mark. Player B circles another mark a few inches behind the service line (clearly not the right mark). Player A goes batsh1t. Player B won't budge. Referee gets called over. He says the call stands because it is up to player B to identify the mark and make the final call. I should also add that both kids moms are watching, and they each are backing up the claim of their respective kid. I don't know how player B's mom can back him up with a straight face when for sure she knew it was in and that he was deliberately showing the wrong mark. And what kind of life lesson that is giving him.

I didn't want to get involved with the craziness and kept out of it, but I don't think me chiming in would have made a difference anyway. The referee did stay on the court afterwards, at least until I left about 10 mins later.

The bottom line is that regardless of whether you ask to see a mark or not, if your opponent is intent on cheating there is nothing you can do about it other than call a referee over (and even then it won't help you with the point you were cheated on, but hopefully will keep the opponent honest from that point on).

 

[navigator]

Question about marks on clay:

1. Assume you can see the mark close to the line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. I would call this out. Correct?

If you immediately called the ball out and then checked this mark to confirm your out call, then it would be out. If you played the shot and then tried to use the mark to call the ball out - after the fact - you can't do that; you played it in, so it was in.

2. Assume you can see the mark close to the base line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. The mark is 1/2 the size of the ball. If the ball landed in the center of the mark then the outside edge of the ball would be over the baseline. Is this ball in or out?

It's in, but if you immediately called it out and used the mark to justify it, you'd probably get away with it. If you played the shot... well, it's in.

 

[blablavla]

Question about marks on clay:

1. Assume you can see the mark close to the line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. I would call this out. Correct?

2. Assume you can see the mark close to the base line. The mark looks like a crater with a distinct edge between the mark and the line. The mark is 1/2 the size of the ball. If the ball landed in the center of the mark then the outside edge of the ball would be over the baseline. Is this ball in or out?

often there are rules explaining when the mark is considered out and when in.
to my memory it was proven that the ball can be "in", while the mark can look like an "out".

 

[mikej]

often there are rules explaining when the mark is considered out and when in.
to my memory it was proven that the ball can be "in", while the mark can look like an "out".

If space between mark and line (in other words, clay that’s not part of the mark) - out

If no space, so overlapping with the line or the mark is tangential with the edge of the line - in

Not super complicated, the tangential one is where there are the most arguments between players and USTA umpires that come to take a look - if the umpire doesn’t see undisturbed clay between, doesn’t matter if the mark is 99% out / only potentially meets the line at a small portion of the mark, they’re calling it in

 

[mikej]

I witnessed something this morning apropos of this thread. USTA juniors tournament going on at the club, and I hung around to watch a bit. Looked to be 16/17 year old males, probably 4.5 maybe low 5.0 level. Clay courts.

Anyway... player A serves, ball looks well in to me standing just outside the court - like a few inches in. Player B calls it out. Player A is incredulous and asks to be shown the mark. Player B circles another mark a few inches behind the service line (clearly not the right mark). Player A goes batsh1t. Player B won't budge. Referee gets called over. He says the call stands because it is up to player B to identify the mark and make the final call. I should also add that both kids moms are watching, and they each are backing up the claim of their respective kid. I don't know how player B's mom can back him up with a straight face when for sure she knew it was in and that he was deliberately showing the wrong mark. And what kind of life lesson that is giving him.

I didn't want to get involved with the craziness and kept out of it, but I don't think me chiming in would have made a difference anyway. The referee did stay on the court afterwards, at least until I left about 10 mins later.

The bottom line is that regardless of whether you ask to see a mark or not, if your opponent is intent on cheating there is nothing you can do about it other than call a referee over (and even then it won't help you with the point you were cheated on, but hopefully will keep the opponent honest from that point on).

I would again say there’s plenty you can do about it if they won’t show you the correct mark - can say nothing so no referee comes over and take a point right back - or in drastic instances such as someone making a flagrant bad call on a break point, can suddenly disagree on the score of that game and players will have to go back to the last point agreed upon, which can mean starting the game over if you suddenly claim you won the first point of the game while your opponent claims otherwise - such a disagreement will also make sure the roaming referee stays around quite a bit longer than they would for one line call disagreement

You don’t have to be taken advantage of by cheaters

 

[Chalkdust]

I would again say there’s plenty you can do about it if they won’t show you the correct mark - can say nothing so no referee comes over and take a point right back - or in drastic instances such as someone making a flagrant bad call on a break point, can suddenly disagree on the score of that game and players will have to go back to the last point agreed upon, which can mean starting the game over if you suddenly claim you won the first point of the game while your opponent claims otherwise - such a disagreement will also make sure the roaming referee stays around quite a bit longer than they would for one line call disagreement

You don’t have to be taken advantage of by cheaters

Well yeah you're right, you can cheat back. But if that's something you're prepared to do, you can do it regardless of whether or not they show a mark. At that point all you are looking for is to justify to yourself that cheating back is warranted. It's a thin line.

 

[mikej]

Well yeah you're right, you can cheat back. But if that's something you're prepared to do, you can do it regardless of whether or not they show a mark. At that point all you are looking for is to justify to yourself that cheating back is warranted. It's a thin line.

I’m with you, if you’re resorting to these tactics more often than a couple times a year, you’re the problem not your opponents and you’ve shifted the fair play line to your own benefit not to your own protection

If you find 1-5% of your competitive tennis opponents to be outrageously different than the rest of them and deserving of being handled differently, you’re probably in the right

 

[bob]

If space between mark and line (in other words, clay that’s not part of the mark) - out

If no space, so overlapping with the line or the mark is tangential with the edge of the line - in

Not super complicated, the tangential one is where there are the most arguments between players and USTA umpires that come to take a look - if the umpire doesn’t see undisturbed clay between, doesn’t matter if the mark is 99% out / only potentially meets the line at a small portion of the mark, they’re calling it in

MikeJ: Thanks! When looking at marks to confirm a call if there is undisturbed clay the ball is out.