Lost to a pusher / junk baller!!!!!!

[kanulondon]

It's just so frustrating.

I am a 30 year male and I'm currently having coaching lesson. I reckon I'm a NTRP 3 to 3.5 player. I've played tennis recreationally for 20 years +

Anyway, like I've said I;ve just started adult coaching. It's good to brush on my strokes so to speak..

HOWEVER, all of this goes out of the window when I play in my local tennis league that's full of pushers, junk ballers...who just get it back in an unorthodox manner or hit the ball stupidly high.

My problem is that I cannot punish them as although I find it easy to hit up with my coach who hits me clean good balls. I find it harder to flatten out junk balls...


HELP

 

[jdubbs]

See the "how to beat a pusher" thread

 

[TonyB]

In general, a 3-3.5 rated player who is a pusher will win MANY matches. If the pusher has speed and can get the ball deep, then he's almost unbeatable at that level.

Hitting junk balls for winners is very difficult. They are paceless balls that are in a vertical plane. Normal rally balls are coming in a sort of horizontal plane, so they're easier to hit straight back. A vertically-dropping ball is difficult to get the timing right, especially when you're trying to add pace yourself.

Your best bet is not to try to beat them at their own game. Practice your strokes until you CAN punish weak balls. If you're unsure of what to do with a junk ball, then just hit it back with spin and a lot of net clearance. If your opponent is just a pusher, they're not going to punish your shots, either. So wait for a better ball to attack.

Most pushers don't like to come to net. Try hitting some drop shots and try to pass them at net. Or better yet, just hit directly at them and test their volleys.

Most pushers also don't like to move forward at angles. They like to run side-to-side. So, hit some slice balls short so that they have to run UP to get the ball rather than just hanging back and feeling comfortable. But yes, a 3.5 rated pusher who has some good movement skills and who is consistent will be VERY tough to beat if you're also a 3.5. That's just the way it goes.

The good news is that if you practice enough and get to a 4.0 or 4.5 level, you will find very few dedicated pushers around. The power, placement, and consistency that players have at higher levels makes it almost impossible for a pure junkballer to survive.

 

[kanulondon]

Great advice Tony!

I think a lot of it is in the mind as well. I've had some bad results of late...lost to people I know I really shouldn't have lost to...and it preys my mind.

I used to play freely where by I'd always attack the week second serve and such like. But I guess I'll need to slowly work up to that stage...in the mean time I need to encompass some of your points to beat this pusher / junk baller

 

[Frank Silbermann]

Learn to take the ball from no-man's land before the bounce swinging up for topspin at the rapidly dropping ball.

You'll be able to take the ball at whatever height you please from inside the court. Because the ball hasn't bounced yet, you'll have decent pace to hit against even if it's almost a lob. And it will be easy to make clean contact putting heavy topspin on a ball that's rapidly dropping.

 

[mightyrick]

Most pushers don't like to come to net. Try hitting some drop shots and try to pass them at net. Or better yet, just hit directly at them and test their volleys.

^^^^ This. There's nothing else you need to do to beat the pusher.

 

[TonyB]

^^^^ This. There's nothing else you need to do to beat the pusher.

Well, that's not ALL there is to it:

1) A good drop shot is NOT easy to hit, especially under pressure during a match.

2) If you hit enough drop shots, the pusher will learn quickly and find a way to get up to net quickly to attack the short ball.

3) Remember, it's not that pushers ONLY hit groundstrokes. If they get close to the net with a floater, they CAN quite probably manage to put the ball away with good pace.

4) Most pushers will surprise you at how quickly they can get to the net and hit the drop shot at its peak, putting you on the defensive.


So, as I said, you want to MIX IN some drop shots and bring them to the net on YOUR TERMS. Maybe hit a deep moonball with spin, and if you can generate a short reply, then you might want to step into the court and fake a putaway shot, followed by a quick dropper that lands in the middle of the service box. That will probably catch your opponent off guard and you will have a good chance of winning that point. But you can't do it all the time.

A better piece of advice would be to take advantage of short balls and hit them AT SHORT ANGLES to get the pusher running back and forth, then hit BEHIND them as they rush to cover the open court. Having to keep guessing at where you're going to hit the ball might inspire the pusher to start being more aggressive with his own shots and that will likely lead to unforced errors on his part, as you will have taken them out of their comfort zone.

 

[mightyrick]

Well, that's not ALL there is to it:

I agree. I didn't bother to mention the other side of the strategy. Although I think I've mentioned it in four or five other posts.

Basically, when the pusher "gets wise" to the drop shot... that is when they start to get skittish and "cheat in" towards the net. Maybe a step or two inside the baseline. This is a natural reaction.

At that point, you can start to "mix" it up as you are saying. For me, I might hit a groundie right at their feet to push them back. Or, I might haul off and hit a moonball.

But the ultimate goal is to keep them hitting shots they don't like to hit... get those unforced errors or passing shot winners. Rather than trying to rely on cracking outright winners to beat them.

 

[TonyB]

Another simple option is to get them running up and back. Hit a short slice down the middle of the court. They will most likely move up to reach it, then immediately retreat back to the baseline. As they are moving backwards, try to take the ball early and hit it deep down the middle (again) so they have to hit it off their back foot, which will likely cause a short reply. Then move up and attack the short ball, angling it off into the corner.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Even if the pusher gets to the dropshot quickly, it's tiring. He sure won't be happy to chase back a lob. Don't worry if you're not getting placements. Running him around will do just as much damage.

 

[kanulondon]

Great advice from all. I think I have the ability to hit good drop shots and I can pretty much moon ball on cue to the base line. Vert useful at times..!

I'd like to thank you all for the advice. I need to speak to the guy who's giving me lessons (I bought 10 lessons as a present for myself)

Because as much as it's good to hit up and learn tips from him, one has to learn how to play the awkward opponents you come across at the 3.0 to 3.5 recreational level.

I guess it's also about me improving as a player and using my bag of tricks to work out the best tactics

 

[Baloo]

I played one of the pushers in my club last night, not sure if he is a true pusher, decent ground strokes, very consistent, lots of lobs and not much pace. As it was very (45 kph) windy and the ball was moving all over the place I couldn't play my normal game so I decided to try and beat him at his own game with the addition of drop shots, net play and occasional pace.

Normally when I'm not on my game I struggle against this guy but this tatic worked a treat and only the wind stopped me from dishing out a bagel.

Once you believe that you can get back any of his shots and mix it up a bit you should have no problem.

 

[mightyrick]

I'd like to thank you all for the advice. I need to speak to the guy who's giving me lessons (I bought 10 lessons as a present for myself)

Be very careful about the advice you receive from your instructor -- regarding beating pushers.

There are many teaching pros who say that beating the pusher requires you to crack outright winners, or to try to "dictate the pace" by forcing shots on the rise which are meant to remove reaction time from your opponent. Those approaches work at advanced levels -- if you have the strokes and skills. But at 4.0 and below, they won't work.

I can think of two or three youtube videos which give such advice.

A lot of teaching pros forget about what it was like back at 3.0, 3.5, 4.0. So they try to apply their 4.5-5.0-5.5 fundamentals to a 3.0 player. This will fail far more often than not. Beginners and club-level players just don't have the strokes.

Use the strategy that works... given your own limitations and capabilities... and do what it takes to get the win at your level.

 

[jdubbs]

Be very careful about the advice you receive from your instructor -- regarding beating pushers.

There are many teaching pros who say that beating the pusher requires you to crack outright winners, or to try to "dictate the pace" by forcing shots on the rise which are meant to remove reaction time from your opponent. Those approaches work at advanced levels -- if you have the strokes and skills. But at 4.0 and below, they won't work.

I can think of two or three youtube videos which give such advice.

A lot of teaching pros forget about what it was like back at 3.0, 3.5, 4.0. So they try to apply their 4.5-5.0-5.5 fundamentals to a 3.0 player. This will fail far more often than not. Beginners and club-level players just don't have the strokes.

Use the strategy that works... given your own limitations and capabilities... and do what it takes to get the win at your level.

Well, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this. I play my matches as if I'm playing an ATP touring pro, hit shots hard, move my opponent side to side, hit a hard 2nd serve. And I do this even when my opponent pushes.

This has led to losses: I have had too many UE's, too many double faults etc. However, my level of play has increased significantly where I can hang and even beat 4.5's and win most of my 4.0 matches (at the club level, haven't played a tourney in a while).

Don't worry about losing, and keep trying to develop pro-like strokes. You'll eventually leave the pushers behind and you'll be better prepared to play a much higher level of competition.

 

[subz]

1. Try to hit short angles to get them out of the court.
2. Make them run i.e. slice them, drop shots etc. I have noticed that low slices work well.
3. Volley !
4. Remember that a genuine pusher can not hurt you. He wont hit winners, so never fear him. Mental strength is the key. You should be prepared for very long rallies.
5. Take the ball early; this way you will take time away from the pusher.
6. Pusher like a certain pace, so mix the pace of your shots.

 

[plumcrazy]

Totally agree with bringing a pusher to the net. The best strategy that worked for me was to hit really heavy topspin. All the pushers I played always had a problem with the ball bounce from a heavy topspin shot. Doing that and some of the other stuff the other guys have mentioned has helped me beat the pushers in my town.

 

[goober]

My problem is that I cannot punish them as although I find it easy to hit up with my coach who hits me clean good balls. I find it harder to flatten out junk balls...

This may be obvious but why don't you have your coach feed you a variety balls with a variety of spin, pace and depth?

 

[olliess]

My problem is that I cannot punish them as although I find it easy to hit up with my coach who hits me clean good balls. I find it harder to flatten out junk balls...

That's because your coach feeds you nice, predictable balls in your strike zone, while a variety of junk balls force you to actually concentrate on every single ball.

Think of it as a positive experience. Trying to line up and hit a good clean shot off of junk ball after junk ball is a great drill and will make you a way better player.

 

[J_R_B]

That's because your coach feeds you nice, predictable balls in your strike zone, while a variety of junk balls force you to actually concentrate on every single ball.

Think of it as a positive experience. Trying to line up and hit a good clean shot off of junk ball after junk ball is a great drill and will make you a way better player.

I agree. This is great experience, and you will definitely get better by playing these players.

 

[kanulondon]

What can I say....

Really excellent advice. I'll definitely practice Junk Ball drills with my coach dude next time I see him, as I do feel it to be way more realistic of the level of play I'm up against.

I also heed the points about playing the situation, rather than reverting to all the 'nicey nicey' stuff from the coach.

It's a tough one as I really don't mind losing if I'm playing my game. Good hard serve + heavy on the ground strokes (I'm 6ft and 250lbs after all). I need to stop getting 'pulled' into the push game.

On reflection I could have certainly pulled the pusher into court, as they seemed very comfy just inside the baseline and always ready for the next shot.

I'm going to be coming here for more advice

You've ALL been a great help

 

[AlpineCadet]

Your opponent is the ball. If you're not used to playing against so much variety, then try to work on your footwork and ball control against various spins in your off-time. Hopefully you'll improve your game even if you're losing against them, so enjoy it.

 

[LeeD]

AlpineCadet summed up the whole ball of wax. Forget the opponent, the ball is your enemy and what you are trying to hit. The court is the media you get to hit to. Your opponent only feeds you balls so you can hit them.

 

[TheBoom]

Don't we all hate that? i think that you should read Winning ugly it helps with learning how to beat a pusher a little bit

 

[kanulondon]

AlpineCadet summed up the whole ball of wax. Forget the opponent, the ball is your enemy and what you are trying to hit. The court is the media you get to hit to. Your opponent only feeds you balls so you can hit them.

Excellent!

 

[dmt]

Its frustating for sure but i have learned to hit on the rise. Its risky but if you are at your best and hitting on the rise, you can win. I use to lose to a pusher all the time but about 4 months ago i bagelled him by taking the ball on the rise and using some well disguised dropshots. And my level isnt very high either, probably about the same as you. Hopefully i can get to 4 someday so i never lose to a pusher again

 

[danno123]

There are a lot of strategies to beat a pusher. The one I'm going to try next is to take away the pusher's "magic button."
What's a magic button, you ask? it's a device that allows you to hit a shot and then froze time so you can move back into position before your opponent hit the ball. Want to see one? Here's a video of a guy using it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w
The magic button is hitting the ball slowly. Watch the shirtless guy in that video. He hits the ball so slowly that he literally walks back to the center of the court before his opponent hits the ball. That's why he's always in position for the next shot. You need to negate the pusher's magic button by moving forward in the court to take time away from the pusher. In that video, the shirtless guy had a very good lob but shirt guy should have served and volleyed every time. Few people can consistently lob a service return. And most player's lobs off the backhand side are worse than the forehand side, so shirt guy should have hit it to the backhand side and rushed the net. If your opponent can hit a reliable lob off the backhand side, rush the service T and wait for your overhead. The problem with shirt guy in the video is that he can't volley or hit an overhead, so the rallies go on forever.

 

[tlm]

There are a lot of strategies to beat a pusher. The one I'm going to try next is to take away the pusher's "magic button."
What's a magic button, you ask? it's a device that allows you to hit a shot and then froze time so you can move back into position before your opponent hit the ball. Want to see one? Here's a video of a guy using it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w
The magic button is hitting the ball slowly. Watch the shirtless guy in that video. He hits the ball so slowly that he literally walks back to the center of the court before his opponent hits the ball. That's why he's always in position for the next shot. You need to negate the pusher's magic button by moving forward in the court to take time away from the pusher. In that video, the shirtless guy had a very good lob but shirt guy should have served and volleyed every time. Few people can consistently lob a service return. And most player's lobs off the backhand side are worse than the forehand side, so shirt guy should have hit it to the backhand side and rushed the net. If your opponent can hit a reliable lob off the backhand side, rush the service T and wait for your overhead. The problem with shirt guy in the video is that he can't volley or hit an overhead, so the rallies go on forever.

Those are some good points you make.

 

[dlk]

I consider myself, somewhat a pusher at times & what beats me is coming to the net to end the point quickly.I am not good at anticpating or sometimes even seeing the opponent come in, if you have decent net skill, I thru as I'm usually out of position to pass or perform accurate deep lob

 

[tlm]

There are so many different styles of tennis that can be played. I think everyone who has played for any amount of time has lost to the pusher style player. The bottom line is if they can beat you on a consistent basis they are better than you, regardless of how hard they hit the ball.

This non stop crying is humorous, believe me i know the feeling. I have lost to these type of players, i have also made the same excuses that many here have. But it is all bs, they beat you so they are better.

It is that simple, in a lot of the 3.5- 4.0 leagues i have played in there are a lot of players that push very successfully.In most league matches i play most players play it safe, not a lot of gunslingers out there when it really counts. So depending on your strengths you have to figure out how to use them +still maintain a high % of consistency.

I remember complaining to some of my friends about losing to this pusher or that one. But then they would play them+beat them easily. I would watch + see that if there regular game was not working that well they would come in or take the ball earlier+destroy the pusher.

So it proved to me that i was not that good, it had nothing to do with the other guy pushing. You should try+ play more players like this+use the time to work on your game. You will get plenty of long rallys which will help you overcome their game. But sitting around crying about having no pace to work with+on+on will do nothing for your game.

 

[mightyrick]

The magic button is hitting the ball slowly. Watch the shirtless guy in that video. He hits the ball so slowly that he literally walks back to the center of the court before his opponent hits the ball. That's why he's always in position for the next shot. You need to negate the pusher's magic button by moving forward in the court to take time away from the pusher.

The pusher in that video is athletic. And he's only using one-fourth of the gas in his tank. You will not take enough time away from an athletic pusher by using a fancier stroke such as a volley, half-volley, or simply hitting on the rise. In those cases... instead of hop-skipping to the ball, he'll be lightly running to the ball. Playing an S&V game against a pusher is asking to either lose on unforced errors, running out of energy, or both.

But you are correct, the only way to take a huge amount of time away from an opponent is to decrease the distance between him and you.

There are two obvious ways to do that: 1) You can go to the net (in which case you'll get lobbed to death and can only hope to win your service games) or 2) You can bring him to the net.

When a pusher is at the net, and you are 20 feet away from him... you now can pass him or lob him. For the pusher to successfully defend this strategy, he has to be good at: 1) Volleying, 2) Extremely quick net play, 3) Hitting a lob while backpeddling.

Pushers aren't good at any of those things. If he tries to volley, he's going to shank it or frame it. If he tries to hit return a backpeddled lob... it is going to be a weak shot that either goes out or falls very short in the court (a sitting duck).

Beating a pusher is as simple as making them make a shot they aren't used to making... while at the same time... ensuring that you aren't wasting energy.

 

[tlm]

The pusher in that video is athletic. And he's only using one-fourth of the gas in his tank. You will not take enough time away from an athletic pusher by using a fancier stroke such as a volley, half-volley, or simply hitting on the rise. In those cases... instead of hop-skipping to the ball, he'll be lightly running to the ball. Playing an S&V game against a pusher is asking to either lose on unforced errors, running out of energy, or both.

But you are correct, the only way to take a huge amount of time away from an opponent is to decrease the distance between him and you.

There are two obvious ways to do that: 1) You can go to the net (in which case you'll get lobbed to death and can only hope to win your service games) or 2) You can bring him to the net.

When a pusher is at the net, and you are 20 feet away from him... you now can pass him or lob him. For the pusher to successfully defend this strategy, he has to be good at: 1) Volleying, 2) Extremely quick net play, 3) Hitting a lob while backpeddling.

Pushers aren't good at any of those things. If he tries to volley, he's going to shank it or frame it. If he tries to hit return a backpeddled lob... it is going to be a weak shot that either goes out or falls very short in the court (a sitting duck).

Beating a pusher is as simple as making them make a shot they aren't used to making... while at the same time... ensuring that you aren't wasting energy.

There is no one way to beat a pusher, it depends on you and the pusher you are playing. I have seen at times where playing s+v against some pushers works real well, some it does not. You can't log all pushers together+say pushers are not good at any of those things, there is no one thing applies to all pushers rule.

 

[danno123]

The pusher in that video is athletic. And he's only using one-fourth of the gas in his tank. You will not take enough time away from an athletic pusher by using a fancier stroke such as a volley, half-volley, or simply hitting on the rise. In those cases... instead of hop-skipping to the ball, he'll be lightly running to the ball. Playing an S&V game against a pusher is asking to either lose on unforced errors, running out of energy, or both.

But you are correct, the only way to take a huge amount of time away from an opponent is to decrease the distance between him and you.

There are two obvious ways to do that: 1) You can go to the net (in which case you'll get lobbed to death and can only hope to win your service games) or 2) You can bring him to the net.

When a pusher is at the net, and you are 20 feet away from him... you now can pass him or lob him. For the pusher to successfully defend this strategy, he has to be good at: 1) Volleying, 2) Extremely quick net play, 3) Hitting a lob while backpeddling.

Pushers aren't good at any of those things. If he tries to volley, he's going to shank it or frame it. If he tries to hit return a backpeddled lob... it is going to be a weak shot that either goes out or falls very short in the court (a sitting duck).

Beating a pusher is as simple as making them make a shot they aren't used to making... while at the same time... ensuring that you aren't wasting energy.

You make an excellent point. I like rushing the net because it's fun, makes the game more exciting, and I get to dictate the pace of the point. But drawing the opponent in and passing him is also a great idea.

 

[dman72]

I struggled against our leagues pusher last night (self professed)

I spent all day Saturday hitting with a guy who hits with good pace and spin, refining our shots, getting into some really good rallies and by the end of the session we're just pounding the ball.

Now my league match comes and the ball is coming in 20 MPH slower than it was on Saturday, middle of the court. Of course it's going to take some adjustment. I was down 5-2 in the first before eventually taking both sets.


You see, one time when I played this guy last year in the league, I had just spent a whole session hitting similar junk from my ball machine in preparation. Guess what happened? 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 or something like that.

The simple answer is, to beat pushers, you need to practice playing them, which most people never do. It isn't really "fun". You can't wail on the ball all day feeding off pace and then expect good results returning moonballs and lobs in your next match.

 

[tlm]

I struggled against our leagues pusher last night (self professed)

I spent all day Saturday hitting with a guy who hits with good pace and spin, refining our shots, getting into some really good rallies and by the end of the session we're just pounding the ball.

Now my league match comes and the ball is coming in 20 MPH slower than it was on Saturday, middle of the court. Of course it's going to take some adjustment. I was down 5-2 in the first before eventually taking both sets.


You see, one time when I played this guy last year in the league, I had just spent a whole session hitting similar junk from my ball machine in preparation. Guess what happened? 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 or something like that.

The simple answer is, to beat pushers, you need to practice playing them, which most people never do. It isn't really "fun". You can't wail on the ball all day feeding off pace and then expect good results returning moonballs and lobs in your next match.

This is very true.

 

[maleyoyo]

I make a point to practice with a well-known 4.0 pusher this winter to work on my game instead of ball machines, walls, and expensive pros.
It forces to me to learn to be fit, patient, mentally tough, and consistent.
Being an offensive minded type of player, this helps my game a great deal.

 

[AlpineCadet]

There are a lot of strategies to beat a pusher. The one I'm going to try next is to take away the pusher's "magic button."
What's a magic button, you ask? it's a device that allows you to hit a shot and then froze time so you can move back into position before your opponent hit the ball. Want to see one? Here's a video of a guy using it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w
The magic button is hitting the ball slowly. Watch the shirtless guy in that video. He hits the ball so slowly that he literally walks back to the center of the court before his opponent hits the ball. That's why he's always in position for the next shot. You need to negate the pusher's magic button by moving forward in the court to take time away from the pusher. In that video, the shirtless guy had a very good lob but shirt guy should have served and volleyed every time. Few people can consistently lob a service return. And most player's lobs off the backhand side are worse than the forehand side, so shirt guy should have hit it to the backhand side and rushed the net. If your opponent can hit a reliable lob off the backhand side, rush the service T and wait for your overhead. The problem with shirt guy in the video is that he can't volley or hit an overhead, so the rallies go on forever.

Looks like both players are "pushing" the ball back, but the grunter isn't as smart of a pusher with his shot selection/game, giving the opponent an easier match.

 

[onehandbh]

What is junk to one person is variety to another!
I think I'm a bit of a junk baller at times. Forehands off the lower part of the
string bed turn into unintentional topspin logs, short slices, dropshots followed
by lobs, etc. I used to sneak into the net a bit off of lob approach shots as
well.

 

[danno123]

Looks like both players are "pushing" the ball back, but the grunter isn't as smart of a pusher with his shot selection/game, giving the opponent an easier match.

Yep. It's pretty clear that, even though the grunter's strokes look better, his primary strategy is the same as the shirtless guy's - hit the ball safely in and let the other guy make an error.

During my last league season I lost badly to what some folks would call a "junk baller." The reason was simple - he was a better player. My strokes may have looked better than his but he was far more experienced and far more consistent. At the time I had only been playing 2 months after taking almost 30 years off, while he has been playing tennis for years. I am looking forward to playing that guy again just to confirm that I'm better now than I was then. Heck, I might lose again but it'll be fun and I look at him as a challenge and beating him will be a milestone in my progress.

 

[kanulondon]

@danno123 -- Good advice re: making them uncomfortable. A couple of times I hit drop shots and forced the player to the net. It was easy enough to pass from there on in...however I wasn't doing this enough.

@dman72 -- Too true. I am going to try and find these types of players to practice against. Will also ask my coach to flip the script and coach me in more realistic match situations

@tlm -- I hear what you say. I consider myself a purist and find it hard to say that a junk baller / pusher is a better than me at Tennis! But the scores don't lie