clout
Hall of Fame
Tbh all pro athletes use gamesmanship
Maria Sharapova retires from professional tennis
- Thread starter ibbi
- Start date
MasturB
Legend
Searah
Semi-Pro
tired of fighting her body? i think she just didn't have the motivation/drive to win anymore.
she doesn't have the skill of su-wei-hsieh where you can just turn up and win with skill alone.
maria required training/physical. hsieh is basically skill only.
i compare her to hsieh because maria seem like she was just showing up to games and hoping to win without any training beforehand.
i think also she won't really be remembered for the right reasons but when people think of her now they usually say something along the lines of "winner when on drugs but as soon as she is off it.. she can't win first rounds" something like that.
my opinion anyway.
she doesn't have the skill of su-wei-hsieh where you can just turn up and win with skill alone.
maria required training/physical. hsieh is basically skill only.
i compare her to hsieh because maria seem like she was just showing up to games and hoping to win without any training beforehand.
i think also she won't really be remembered for the right reasons but when people think of her now they usually say something along the lines of "winner when on drugs but as soon as she is off it.. she can't win first rounds" something like that.
my opinion anyway.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
But BJK remains the Queen of Gamesmanship.Some, however, make a career out of it, so ...
dominikk1985
Legend
She's had a bum shoulder and other injuries for years, it is hard to train every day if you have pain and need to take pain killers to step on the court.
Regarding meldonium: I can imagine she also took other stuff as do many Russian athletes but meldonium is basically a placebo, Russia is the only country prescribing it and there is little clinical evidence for its efficacy.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Testing positive for PEDs did not keep Agassi or Hingis from gaining entrance in the ITHoF. With a single infraction, can't see why Sharapova would not receive the same consideration as those 2.
@Mainad
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dominikk1985
Legend
But they took recreational drugs who have no positive effect, agassi was really bad back then.
Meldonium has no proven effect either but at least theoretically it could have a performance enhancing effect.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Recreational or not, should that matter in the eyes of the governing bodies? Dont believe Andre ever got a waiver/TUE for ysing uppers for his back.
And also, from my experience, coke and uppers both can have a very positive effect on mental and physical performance.
Meldo appears that it might have a rather mild PE effect. But not sure that this effect is even as pronounced as a couple of legal substances that I've mentioned in the past. Studies appear to show that meldo does have sone medical / heart health benefits. (Listed 2 below and Wiki presents some others).
Mildronate: Cardioprotective Action Through Carnitine-Lowering Effect - PubMed
Mildronate [3-(2,2,2-trimethylhydrazinium)propionate dihydrate] ameliorates cardiac function during ischemia by modulating myocardial energy metabolism. Biochemical and pharmacological evidence supports the hypothesis that the mechanism of action of mildronate is based on its regulatory effect...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Pharmacological Effects of Meldonium: Biochemical Mechanisms and Biomarkers of Cardiometabolic Activity - PubMed
Meldonium (mildronate; 3-(2,2,2-trimethylhydrazinium)propionate; THP; MET-88) is a clinically used cardioprotective drug, which mechanism of action is based on the regulation of energy metabolism pathways through l-carnitine lowering effect. l-Carnitine biosynthesis enzyme γ-butyrobetaine...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Where?
helixx
Hall of Fame
Press conference
helixx
Hall of Fame
The WTA has compiled the best stats from the Russian's illustrious career:
Spent 21 weeks as WTA World No.1 – First ascended to top spot week of August 22, 2005. At 18 years 125 days, remains the fifth youngest woman to reach No.1 (after Hingis, Seles, Austin and Graf.
Posted 10 Top 10 season finishes – 2004-08, 2011-15 (including nine Top 5 finishes.
Winner of 36 singles titles from 59 finals – Third among active players for titles (behind S.Williams and V.Williams) and 15th on Open Era list; also won three doubles titles.
Won at least one singles title 13 years straight from 2003 until 2015 – a streak only bettered by Graf, Navratilova and Evert.
Five-time Grand Slam champion from 10 major finals – 2004 Wimbledon (d. S.Williams in F), 2006 US Open, 2008 Australian Open (d. Ivanovic in F), 2012 Roland Garros (d. Errani in F to complete career Grand Slam), 2014 Roland Garros (d. Halep in F); victory at Wimbledon made her the second Russian woman to win a Grand Slam title, after Myskina at 2004 Roland Garros.
WTA Finals singles champion – Won event on debut at Los Angeles in 2004 (d. S.Williams in F); qualified for the season finale on nine occasions and was also a two-time runner-up (2007, 2012).
Olympic silver medalist – London 2012 (l. S.Williams in F).
Posted 98 wins over Top 10 opponents – Including seven wins over reigning No.1s. En route to winning the 2006 US Open title, defeated World No.1 Mauresmo in SF and World No.2 Henin in F.
Fed Cup highlights – Made debut for Russia in 2008 quarterfinal round with further nominations in 2011, 2012 and 2015 for a 7-1 singles record; went 2-0 vs. Czech Republic in 2015 final (tie won by Czechs, 3-2).
Prize money of $38,777,962 – Third on all-time list (behind S.Williams and V.Williams).
WTA Awards – Most Impressive Newcomer (2003), Most Improved Player (2004), Player of the Year (2004).
Professional milestones – First pro event contested was ITF/Sarasota, FL-USA in 2001; made WTA main draw debut as a wild card at 2003 Indian Wells. Won final title at Tianjin Open in October 2017.
Spent 21 weeks as WTA World No.1 – First ascended to top spot week of August 22, 2005. At 18 years 125 days, remains the fifth youngest woman to reach No.1 (after Hingis, Seles, Austin and Graf.
Posted 10 Top 10 season finishes – 2004-08, 2011-15 (including nine Top 5 finishes.
Winner of 36 singles titles from 59 finals – Third among active players for titles (behind S.Williams and V.Williams) and 15th on Open Era list; also won three doubles titles.
Won at least one singles title 13 years straight from 2003 until 2015 – a streak only bettered by Graf, Navratilova and Evert.
Five-time Grand Slam champion from 10 major finals – 2004 Wimbledon (d. S.Williams in F), 2006 US Open, 2008 Australian Open (d. Ivanovic in F), 2012 Roland Garros (d. Errani in F to complete career Grand Slam), 2014 Roland Garros (d. Halep in F); victory at Wimbledon made her the second Russian woman to win a Grand Slam title, after Myskina at 2004 Roland Garros.
WTA Finals singles champion – Won event on debut at Los Angeles in 2004 (d. S.Williams in F); qualified for the season finale on nine occasions and was also a two-time runner-up (2007, 2012).
Olympic silver medalist – London 2012 (l. S.Williams in F).
Posted 98 wins over Top 10 opponents – Including seven wins over reigning No.1s. En route to winning the 2006 US Open title, defeated World No.1 Mauresmo in SF and World No.2 Henin in F.
Fed Cup highlights – Made debut for Russia in 2008 quarterfinal round with further nominations in 2011, 2012 and 2015 for a 7-1 singles record; went 2-0 vs. Czech Republic in 2015 final (tie won by Czechs, 3-2).
Prize money of $38,777,962 – Third on all-time list (behind S.Williams and V.Williams).
WTA Awards – Most Impressive Newcomer (2003), Most Improved Player (2004), Player of the Year (2004).
Professional milestones – First pro event contested was ITF/Sarasota, FL-USA in 2001; made WTA main draw debut as a wild card at 2003 Indian Wells. Won final title at Tianjin Open in October 2017.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Which one was this, I don't really keep up with their off court H2H as much, though I know of a few exchanges. Was this the one concerning Dimitrov?
helixx
Hall of Fame
Yeah i meant that one. : )
Paulreedsmith
Semi-Pro
Will we ever know how she could comeback and keep playing on tour without her precious medicine for that serious heart conditioning?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Caffeine has a performance enhancing effect and it was actually banned at one Olympics.
An Australian fencer was caught with too much in his system and got a small punishment for his troubles before clearing himself.
Doping policy was very lax back then. It's entirely possible Meldonium has an effect similar to some sort of amount of caffeine, but no more.
But WADA has no money to research such things and what they ban is based on research done by others, and of course they did no research on excretion rates.
Hence, WADA banned athletes who had in fact ceased to take the drug and this shameful fact never attracted the attention that it should have.
An Australian fencer was caught with too much in his system and got a small punishment for his troubles before clearing himself.
Doping policy was very lax back then. It's entirely possible Meldonium has an effect similar to some sort of amount of caffeine, but no more.
But WADA has no money to research such things and what they ban is based on research done by others, and of course they did no research on excretion rates.
Hence, WADA banned athletes who had in fact ceased to take the drug and this shameful fact never attracted the attention that it should have.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Sharapova never claimed she took it for her heart. The doctor prescribed it for her persistent viral illnesses.
All her statements and testimony to the two tribunals are absolutely clear on this point so you should read them.
The company that makes the drug claims that it is for serious heart conditions so it looks like they conned you too.
All her statements and testimony to the two tribunals are absolutely clear on this point so you should read them.
The company that makes the drug claims that it is for serious heart conditions so it looks like they conned you too.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Good move. There was no chance she'd win another slam anyway.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@dominikk1985
Not seen evidence that meldo even has as much of a PE effect as caffeine (or creatine).
The mental & physical PE effect of caffeine is well known. (Creatine also has a PE effect). I believe that WADA has gone back and forth, more than once, on caffeine. But they have set a very high allowable level for the amt of caff in the body. The PE effects of caff happen at much lower levels than the limits they've set.
Not seen evidence that meldo even has as much of a PE effect as caffeine (or creatine).
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No, Maria didnt. Sharapova had 2 wins in 2004 and that's it.
She got a walkover because Serena got injured in the prior round in FO 2018.
MasturB
Legend
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Venus better at LEAST get 4 pages or we're fighting 
Subway Tennis
Legend
Venus better at LEAST get 4 pages or we're fighting
When the time comes, we are going to need at least four pages just to discus the drama from Venus vs Vinci and Venus vs Strycova matches, let alone the full career.
I hope this thread keeps going, too. I'm still gutted that Masha is retiring.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Realistically, the meldo miight have given her less PE effect than a cup or 2 of coffee provides for many players.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Steve G has it at 20-2 while Tennis Mag/Channel has the h2h at 20-3. What do you believe it is?
MasturB
Legend
No idea because if you look at the page it has Sharapova as "winner" in all the slots Serena should be in there.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Venus better at LEAST get 4 pages or we're fighting
I wouldn't worry about Venus not reaching 4 pages.
I didn't like the meldonium scandal, but still wish Maria the best in her retirement. She certainly brought in a lot of new fans to watch tennis, especially after her Wimbledon title. Now that she's gone, I hope the WTA and ATP consider establishing new rules regarding shrieking and grunting during points, as I do believe it can be a hinderence (to the opponent) when done in excess. Maria isn't the only person who does this either. There are many others as well, both male and female.
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Subway Tennis
Legend
I can't remember where I heard this.... (Maybe Greg Sharkey?) but the way I always remember it is the last time Maria beat Serena, the iPhone wasn't invented yet
A tough pill to swallow for me. As a fan of both players, I wanted more momentum shifts in the rivalry.
In Maria's last match win against Serena, there is no doubt Serena was fit enough to take the court, but her play was still restricted by injury.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Ah, so it was the iPhone that gave Serena the distinct advantage over Maria. The truth is revealed.I can't remember where I heard this.... (Maybe Greg Sharkey?) but the way I always remember it is the last time Maria beat Serena, the iPhone wasn't invented yet
A tough pill to swallow for me. As a fan of both players, I wanted more momentum shifts in the rivalry.
In Maria's last match win against Serena, there is no doubt Serena was fit enough to take the court, but her play was still restricted by injury.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Venus better at LEAST get 4 pages or we're fighting
They will be quality pages regardless of the number. As it is usual with Sharapova, it is more screaming than anything else.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
My all time fav is #8 run run. Then at the press conference Radwa complained about Maria’s shrieking and when Maria was asked for comment on it she asked: Isnt she back in Poland already?
That video is in a nutshell Sharapova's entire "impact" on tennis.
Also, they missed probably one of the most famous quotes "Isn't she back to Poland".
Hey Masha, aren't you back in Russia already?
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Interesting. Hadn't looked at the details recently. They (correctly?) listed the h2h score as 20-2, in favor of Serena. I think that I had looked at the breakdown a couple of years back and the list accurately reflected that h2h score. But somehow that got corrupted. Hacked? Or maybe a web site glitch.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@scotus @Open Stance
Seles was even worse in the grunt/scream dept IMO but this forum and the web (as it is now) was not around to constantly harp about it and have it define her career while barely acknowledging the positives.
If Nick B, the WTA, ITF and others has seriously addressed this issue in the 80s and 90s then it would have not been much of an issue for those who followed. A lot of the most influential grunters / screamers went thru Nick's academy: Seles, Larcher de Brito, the Williams sisters, Sharapova and Andre Agassi are some of those. From there, this virus spread to other top players.
BTW, several years back, Maria supported a plan to subdue future grunters & screamers. While it would be difficult for her and other current players to change the vocal behavior they established years ago (as juniors), the next gen could be trained to exhale during their swing with minimal vocalizations.
www.independent.ie
They will be quality pages regardless of the number. As it is usual with Sharapova, it is more screaming than anything else.
Seles was even worse in the grunt/scream dept IMO but this forum and the web (as it is now) was not around to constantly harp about it and have it define her career while barely acknowledging the positives.
If Nick B, the WTA, ITF and others has seriously addressed this issue in the 80s and 90s then it would have not been much of an issue for those who followed. A lot of the most influential grunters / screamers went thru Nick's academy: Seles, Larcher de Brito, the Williams sisters, Sharapova and Andre Agassi are some of those. From there, this virus spread to other top players.
BTW, several years back, Maria supported a plan to subdue future grunters & screamers. While it would be difficult for her and other current players to change the vocal behavior they established years ago (as juniors), the next gen could be trained to exhale during their swing with minimal vocalizations.
Tennis: Serial screamer Maria Sharapova backs plan to silence grunts on court
PLANS to muzzle the ear-bashing grunters of women's tennis have found an unlikely ally in Maria Sharapova.
www.independent.ie
Tennis_Hands
Banned
@scotus @Open Stance
Seles was even worse in the grunt/scream dept IMO but this forum and the web (as it is now) was not around to constantly harp about it and have it define her career while barely acknowledging the positives.
If Nick B, the WTA, ITF and others has seriously addressed this issue in the 80s and 90s then it would have not been much of an issue for those who followed. A lot of the most influential grunters / screamers went thru Nick's academy: Seles, Larcher de Brito, the Williams sisters, Sharapova and Andre Agassi are some of those. From there, this virus spread to other top players.
BTW, several years back, Maria supported a plan to subdue future grunters & screamers. While it would be difficult for her and other current players to change the vocal behavior they established years ago (as juniors), the next gen could be trained to exhale during their swing with minimal vocalizations.
Tennis: Serial screamer Maria Sharapova backs plan to silence grunts on court
PLANS to muzzle the ear-bashing grunters of women's tennis have found an unlikely ally in Maria Sharapova.
"Nick B and addressed"? I see that you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but in all probability he developed the concept, so that his students can gain a competitive advantage.
ITF, ATP and WTA should have hammered hard the offenders. Oh, well!
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Grunting is legal (when it is not considered a hindrance by the umpire), but one really has to have something on the back of his mind to say that "it has nothing to do with Sharapova in particular".
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
So give us a few examples of grunting ruled as hinderance by the umpire and some idea of frequency rates for this call?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Bartelby
Are YOU saying that " the ITF, ATP and WTA should have hammered hard the offenders"? Or are you saying that I said that? I certainly did not say that.
It would not have been in the best interest of the game to force established players to just "turn it off". That was tried with Seles in one slam final (vs Graf). The results were disastrous and Seles vowed that she would not be forced to do that again. The academies, WTA, ATP, ITF and other governing bodies should have started trainining upcoming players back in the early 90s to breath/exhale with minimal grunting or screaming. Once a player is in their late teens (or early 20s), it has become an established part of their game that would be quite difficult to change.
Seems you misread or misinterpreted the intent and substance of my post. Not giving Nick B the benefit of any doubt. Nick B and his academy either encouraged the practice or did nothing to discourage the practice with their talented stars and other students."Nick B and addressed"? I see that you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but in all probability he developed the concept, so that his students can gain a competitive advantage.
ITF, ATP and WTA should have hammered hard the offenders. Oh, well!
Are YOU saying that " the ITF, ATP and WTA should have hammered hard the offenders"? Or are you saying that I said that? I certainly did not say that.
It would not have been in the best interest of the game to force established players to just "turn it off". That was tried with Seles in one slam final (vs Graf). The results were disastrous and Seles vowed that she would not be forced to do that again. The academies, WTA, ATP, ITF and other governing bodies should have started trainining upcoming players back in the early 90s to breath/exhale with minimal grunting or screaming. Once a player is in their late teens (or early 20s), it has become an established part of their game that would be quite difficult to change.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I am not sure what I misread or misinterpreted. You just confirmed that you allow for the idea that he probably developed it and that is what I said. Just said that it is less likely that all these players that trained with him happen to do it independently from the place where they all learned/developed, so his role is not one of looking to stop it - quite the opposite.
Yes I am saying that they all should have done that, as it is clearly a gamesmanship tactic. If a player cannot live without gamesmanship I have no sympathy for him/her, just because otherwise he would be better: he clearly needs to make his opponent worse (not with his tennis) to be "better". \
The academies would not start stopping players from developing gamesmanship tactics, when the Governing bodies don't bother to address these officially and you said that they shouldn't have done that, because the shriekers are too precious. As a result we have the current situation, and I don't think that I am the only one who stopped watching WTA for this reason (among others, but I really couldn't hold my attention on the tennis when I wanted to watch something with the participation of one of the usual suspects).
Tennis_Hands
Banned
He is on the verge of unwatchable in that regard and in the past I have turned off the TV when he crossed the line.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Many, if not a majority of, players are not grunting or screaming as a gamesmanship tactic. Many do it merely as part of their breathing pattern for maximum exertion. Many do it when physically stressed.I am not sure what I misread or misinterpreted. You just confirmed that you allow for the idea that he probably developed it and that is what I said. Just said that it is less likely that all these players that trained with him happen to do it independently from the place where they all learned/developed, so his role is not one of looking to stop it - quite the opposite.
Yes I am saying that they all should have done that, as it is clearly a gamesmanship tactic. If a player cannot live without gamesmanship I have no sympathy for him/her, just because otherwise he would be better: he clearly needs to make his opponent worse (not with his tennis) to be "better". \
The academies would not start stopping players from developing gamesmanship tactics, when the Governing bodies don't bother to address these officially and you said that they shouldn't have done that, because the shriekers are too precious. As a result we have the current situation, and I don't think that I am the only one who stopped watching WTA for this reason (among others, but I really couldn't hold my attention on the tennis when I wanted to watch something with the participation of one of the usual suspects).
I've seen Maria practice w/o making a sound. She is very relaxed and not under pressure. She has even played a set or so before getting to the point where she is physically (or mentally) stressed.
I have seen other players (like de Brito) start their practice quietly but after 20-30 minutes of practice, they are in full grunt or scream mode.
Vika OTOH does it all the time -- even during practice. With her, it is an established breathing pattern. She normally inhales when the ball bounces. You hear a softer inhale sound on the bounce. You then hear a louder exhale sound during her forward swing (upward swing on the serve). An exaggerated or forceful exhale is quite common during the exertion phase for weight lifting and for many sports.
Simona grunts only when hitting serves or heavy topspin shots. Heavy exertion. You don't hear her on flat shots, underspin g'strokes, drop shots or volleys. Its about exertion much more than it is about gamesmanship for many players. For many, it's just a habit that was established as a young player.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
I have a very simple way of knowing whether it is gamesmanship or not: if the screaming continues when the opponent is hitting the ball, it is a clear gamesmanship. Also, if the screaming stops immediately when the ball is out/hits the net, it is a clear gemesmanship.
I am not saying that all sound while playing tennis is gamesmanship, but with the most vocal players it is relatively clear who amongst them is doing it out of habit, and who uses it for other purposes.
