Match pressure is a real thing. Not possible to get rid of it.

[mcs1970]

Rog...your experience with practice and matches fascinates me. My experience with coaching a group of extremely talented hoops kids was kinda the same. 3 of those kids could absolutely have got a scholarship if they were focused on hoops, but their goals were different. We went to the select Finals twice, won quite a number of other tournaments. I always preach play harder in practice so that games are easier, but these kids were all super talented and they knew as a parent coach, I was just a bus driver. So all my preaching would fall on deaf ears. They'd be goofing off in practice, and yet when the games came on they'd suddenly turn it up another level. It was like watching a different group play. I attributed it to the fact that most of them had played hoops most of their lives, but at the same time, felt that maybe if they were a bit more serious in practice we'd have got over the hump and not have lost twice in the Finals. However, reading about your experiences with high performing Tennis kids, it seems to be the same... seems like high performing kids and athletes in general know when to instinctively turn it up a notch, and seriousness in practice probably had nothing to do with them losing those Finals.

Where is the disconnect though between what we perceive as to working hard in practice being a must for competition? Are they working out in private? I understand not going for your shots in practice especially when you have built a stash of confidence due to years of repetition. However, you still have to outwork your opponent. Your son and his friends must still be doing a ton of physical fitness stuff in private. Else that's a clear advantage to their oppponent.

 

[rogerroger917]

Rog...your experience with practice and matches fascinates me. My experience with coaching a group of extremely talented hoops kids was kinda the same. 3 of those kids could absolutely have got a scholarship if they were focused on hoops, but their goals were different. We went to the select Finals twice, won quite a number of other tournaments. I always preach play harder in practice so that games are easier, but these kids were all super talented and they knew as a parent coach, I was just a bus driver. So all my preaching would fall on deaf ears. They'd be goofing off in practice, and yet when the games came on they'd suddenly turn it up another level. It was like watching a different group play. I attributed it to the fact that most of them had played hoops most of their lives, but at the same time, felt that maybe if they were a bit more serious in practice we'd have got over the hump and not have lost twice in the Finals. However, reading about your experiences with high performing Tennis kids, it seems to be the same... seems like high performing kids and athletes in general know when to instinctively turn it up a notch, and seriousness in practice probably had nothing to do with them losing those Finals.

Where is the disconnect though between what we perceive as to working hard in practice being a must for competition? Are they working out in private? I understand not going for your shots in practice especially when you have built a stash of confidence due to years of repetition. However, you still have to outwork your opponent. Your son and his friends must still be doing a ton of physical fitness stuff in private. Else that's a clear advantage to their oppponent.

My son. Now it is 6 days a week 2.5 hours tennis. 3 days a week running after tennis practice for 2 miles. 3 days a week strength workout. On 2 of the days tennis is doubled up. (Sat Sun) During tournament blocks much less practice. He goes to a regular high school.

The full time (online school academy) kids do strength and conditioning 5 days a week. And 2x tennis per day every day. 5 days.

He can literally hit backhands for 30 minutes non stop hand fed or basket feed and hardly miss. Same with all the different shots. His coaches have me chart his matches. And they video practice matches. It is an immense amount of practice for me to keep up. As I feed him balls every day he does not have a lesson or practice match. It's been 10 years of work. He is really loving tennis now. He played less than the other kids when younger. I'm glad it ending soon for me. He has 1 more year in high school.

As far as practice matches go my son misses a lot more in them. He hits heavy regardless. But he just plays better in matches. Since age 14.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My son. Now it is 6 days a week 2.5 hours tennis. 3 days a week running after tennis practice for 2 miles. 3 days a week strength workout. On 2 of the days tennis is doubled up. (Sat Sun) During tournament blocks much less practice. He goes to a regular high school.

The full time (online school academy) kids do strength and conditioning 5 days a week. And 2x tennis per day every day. 5 days.

He can literally hit backhands for 30 minutes non stop hand fed or basket feed and hardly miss. Same with all the different shots. His coaches have me chart his matches. And they video practice matches. It is an immense amount of practice for me to keep up. As I feed him balls every day he does not have a lesson or practice match. It's been 10 years of work. He is really loving tennis now. He played less than the other kids when younger. I'm glad it ending soon for me. He has 1 more year in high school.

As far as practice matches go my son misses a lot more in them. He hits heavy regardless. But he just plays better in matches. Since age 14.

When he makes it to US Open ... you have to tell us. I will be watching for the singing.

 

[rogerroger917]

When he makes it to US Open ... you have to tell us. I will be watching for the singing.

Lol. Not good enough to go pro. Ha ha...

 

[ByeByePoly]

Lol. Not good enough to go pro. Ha ha...

Cr@p ... wanted to see ttw kid beat Fed at 40.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

He is pandering to the adult 3.5 players.

At the higher levels the match is on a few points a set. Advanced players do not break down in competition. But it is those few points that a lost of focus or doubt creeps in that determines the match. No advanced player practices better than their match play.

My personal experience is national level juniors age 12 thru 18. Collegiate players d1 and d2 programs. Former ATP pros that coach my son.

When these sports psychologists speak to the upper level players it is about those few points in a match. That's what my sons talks were about with them. Like when Nadal double faulted in 2008 final at Wimbledon on a critical point. But managed to rally and still win that match. Not playing better in practice than in a real match. It's a given the top players of all ages are beyond that. It is similar to figuring out how to beat pushers when you move up the ranks. Past a certain level pushers are just not a concern.

OK, so at least I see your context. Since I'm not a junior nor a collegiate nor a pro, perhaps the advice is beyond me. But Cohn's advice is solid, IMO, even though I'm a 4.5. In fact, I was watching a match recently in the 5.5 division and the loser could have benefited greatly from Cohn's advice.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Speaking of nerves and pressures, I have this question, is it possible for a player who plays so badly, tends to lose 95% of time, to develop a fear, nerve and anxiety, because of losing, and that becomes a cycle?

Basically he didn't start out with "bad nerves" but due to bad tennis skills, he became a nervous loser.

Sure, it's a positive feedback cycle: you lose and it makes you feel like a loser so the next time you go out with less confidence and you lose and feel more like a loser, etc. Everything you do pushes you further along the "loser" path.

Of course, it's also possible to have one in the opposite direction towards "winner".

 

[navigator]

I'm not a winning is everything person. I've failed enough to know that what has made me a success in my work is actually my failures. And getting back up.

I just know from my personal experience for excellence in tennis you really need to want it. Want to win. My son has been so hurt being up 4 2 in a 3rd set in a national championship match and having to retire due to cramps it haunted him for a year. His friends still talk about it. The week after the match he told me that is "never" going to happen to him again. He refocused and poured 100% into his fitness as well as tennis. It has transformed him.

I get it. Adults rec tennis is not that serious. But this place talks about getting better and winning. I have been turning over every leaf and spending all kinds of money on winning for the past 12 years. So I feel I have a unique perspective that a typical adult 4.0 does not have.

In my view, the mental side is not unlike the technique side of things in that it's different for high-performance juniors/college players/pros versus rec players. I think the stuff you've mentioned in this thread makes a lot of sense for the former group.

But rec players... I think the most important thing is just to play relaxed tennis. And the best way to play relaxed is to appreciate how unimportant the outcome is. I play with fairly few nerves - almost exactly the same as practice matches - simply because I don't *really* care about the outcome. Of course, like any normal human, I'd rather win than lose. But I realize that it's just not that important. (I would occasionally have some nerves as a junior because I thought it was important at the time, but as an adult... not so much.) So, I rarely get tight. That seems like a simple way for rec players to deal with nerves. Doesn't work with elite players, though... there's generally something of some importance at stake - it's completely different.

Just my two cents, of course. I don't know much about coaching, etc.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

...But rec players... I think the most important thing is just to play relaxed tennis. And the best way to play relaxed is to appreciate how unimportant the outcome is...

This has worked the best for me in matches and tournaments. However playing doubles and for a team adds pressure because now others are depending on you.
Even so, the outcome isn't that important. I've won and lost tournaments, and a couple of days later it doesn't matter either way.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think for rec players, there is often a difference between "loving to win ... or hating to lose" and "loving the competition". Of course it was satisfying to be the last man standing at the end of the tournament, it validated a lot of hard work and hours on the court. But for me ... I was like TenFan, win or lose ... a couple of days later it was "when's the next tournament".

There were a few exceptions ... some a$$es just needed to be given a beat down in a tournament match. I can not lie ... enjoyed those. Luckily, that was very rare here in 4.0s and 4.5s ... the enemy combatants usually became friends.

Practice matches ... relaxed
Tournament matches ... relaxed + adrenaline

Edit:
a$$hole ... relaxed + motivation

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This has worked the best for me in matches and tournaments. However playing doubles and for a team adds pressure because now others are depending on you.
Even so, the outcome isn't that important. I've won and lost tournaments, and a couple of days later it doesn't matter either way.

+1
played a UTR tourney recently... looked up some of the folks in the draw... they had records of like 75-40 (or something like that)... and they were like 19. so yeah, for them it's just another match.
for rec folks, since they play so infrequently, it's easy to stress over that one match, because the next one might be so far away
since it's the season... i'd say the feeling might be akin to World Cup... every match means so much more, because if you're out, you need to wait 4y to play again...
similarly in tennis, the next match might feel "so far way" that i might need to live with defeat for like 2w, before having a chance to "redeem" myself
so part of the process of relieving match pressure, is just to innoculate yourself by playing alot of matches

 

[ByeByePoly]

+1
played a UTR tourney recently... looked up some of the folks in the draw... they had records of like 75-40 (or something like that)... and they were like 19. so yeah, for them it's just another match.
for rec folks, since they play so infrequently, it's easy to stress over that one match, because the next one might be so far away
since it's the season... i'd say the feeling might be akin to World Cup... every match means so much more, because if you're out, you need to wait 4y to play again...
similarly in tennis, the next match might feel "so far way" that i might need to live with defeat for like 2w, before having a chance to "redeem" myself
so part of the process of relieving match pressure, is just to innoculate yourself by playing alot of matches

We had 6+ summer tournaments ... now one. If we only had one a summer when I started tournaments, I doubt I would have even entered. I also doubt I would have ever made it past 4.0. Six+ tournaments a year was boot camp.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

We had 6+ summer tournaments ... now one. If we only had one a summer when I started tournaments, I doubt I would have even entered. I also doubt I would have ever made it past 4.0. Six+ tournaments a year was boot camp.

6 tourneys is alot.
i'm lucky if i get 2...
but i'm also not willing to travel further than 30 minutes to get to one.

 

[ByeByePoly]

6 tourneys is alot.
i'm lucky if i get 2...
but i'm also not willing to travel further than 30 minutes to get to one.

Six was just our city. Double that if willing to travel 90-100 miles. We had two "majors" , and other city had two. I was playing 10+ tournaments every summer and fall ... loved it. It was all replaced by USTA ... which was fine for middle age club doubles, but not even close to tournament singles.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Six was just our city. Double that if willing to travel 90-100 miles. We had two "majors" , and other city had two. I was playing 10+ tournaments every summer and fall ... loved it. It was all replaced by USTA ... which was fine for middle age club doubles, but not even close to tournament singles.

yeah, part of me wishes we went back to a tournament culture of rec tennis, but realistically i know i'd never be able to commit to many (probably only during the summer), and usta tennis is actually a nice bite sized format that fits the typical working parent tennis player, and satiates the competitve hunger.

 

[ByeByePoly]

yeah, part of me wishes we went back to a tournament culture of rec tennis, but realistically i know i'd never be able to commit to many (probably only during the summer), and usta tennis is actually a nice bite sized format that fits the typical working parent tennis player, and satiates the competitve hunger.

I was single until 34.

Question for you since you are an active 4.5 singles. Are you s&v proof with your passing shots? We had both s&v and baseliners at the top of 4.5 singles state rankings, so definitely not s&v proof. I watch current 4.5 singles video here, and never know who can pass because very few come to the net. Maybe the 4.5 singles game became more s&v and c&c proof.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I found that pressure (tight points in a singles match) effected my full strokes the worse. So FHs, bh drive ... baseline and ros. Kick serve, slice bh (including ros), s&v, overheads held up better. So for me tight meant move my feet and get to the net. Often, the rest would flow from there, hit a good full fh and then you started swinging out.

IMO ... when both players are under pressure, big advantage swings to the guy at the net. It's hard to hit that passing shot when you are tight, but a block volley to open court much easier. I would see it all the time s&ving ... get passed a lot early, but misses start coming end of sets, and third set.

Probably all rec players should attempt to have a low ue bh slice option ... shorter stroke and tends to hold up under pressure.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I was single until 34.

Question for you since you are an active 4.5 singles. Are you s&v proof with your passing shots? We had both s&v and baseliners at the top of 4.5 singles state rankings, so definitely not s&v proof. I watch current 4.5 singles video here, and never know who can pass because very few come to the net. Maybe the 4.5 singles game became more s&v and c&c proof.

lol, no.
good s&v'ers have amazing approach shots, and are good at getting me to hit short

I found that pressure (tight points in a singles match) effected my full strokes the worse. So FHs, bh drive ... baseline and ros. Kick serve, slice bh (including ros), s&v, overheads held up better. So for me tight meant move my feet and get to the net. Often, the rest would flow from there, hit a good full fh and then you started swinging out.

IMO ... when both players are under pressure, big advantage swings to the guy at the net. It's hard to hit that passing shot when you are tight, but a block volley to open court much easier. I would see it all the time s&ving ... get passed a lot early, but misses start coming end of sets, and third set.

Probably all rec players should attempt to have a low ue bh slice option ... shorter stroke and tends to hold up under pressure.

that's why i crash the net in TB's in dubs.

 

[TagUrIt]

As if it would work! I had RF written on my racket and even that didn't work.

What works for some doesn’t work for others. I was sharing something that I personally use to inspire and motivate ME. You have to figure out what works best for YOU