Meles: "...we're in one of the great transition years..."

[Meles]

@Meles Madrid is here. Gimme a beat.

I've been fighting with the bitter Federistas so this is hard.....
oh yes. For Madrid its a repeat, but now is the time

 

[Meles]

To paraphrase @Meles this is one of the great transition years between generations.

Enjoy it folks

Enjoying it.

At Madrid:
1. All Lost Gen into Round of 16 including Paire and Goffin - a total of five alive
2. Three of the 4 big NextGen in with Pouille going down early after some illness caused him to drop doubles - three in the melee
3. Lucky Loser #2, little Borna is born again on clay and faces Murray who he beat once in 2015
4. Wawrinka out and both Djokovic and Nadal nearly lost to some very out of form players

The fossils are teetering on extinction this week in Madrid Mr. Cretaceous.

 

[Sereger]

Enjoying it.

At Madrid:
1. All Lost Gen into Round of 16 including Paire and Goffin - a total of five alive
2. Three of the 4 big NextGen in with Pouille going down early after some illness caused him to drop doubles - three in the melee
3. Lucky Loser #2, little Borna is born again on clay and faces Murray who he beat once in 2015
4. Wawrinka out and both Djokovic and Nadal nearly lost to some very out of form players

The fossils are teetering on extinction this week in Madrid Mr. Cretaceous.

Fastest clay court effect?

 

[Meles]

Fastest clay court effect?

Could be a nice balance. I'd actually think they'll do even better on the slow stuff. Just plain old momentum with all but Kyrgios having wins on clay this year.

 

[Meles]

Enjoying it.

At Madrid:
1. All Lost Gen into Round of 16 including Paire and Goffin - a total of five alive
2. Three of the 4 big NextGen in with Pouille going down early after some illness caused him to drop doubles - three in the melee
3. Lucky Loser #2, little Borna is born again on clay and faces Murray who he beat once in 2015
4. Wawrinka out and both Djokovic and Nadal nearly lost to some very out of form players

The fossils are teetering on extinction this week in Madrid Mr. Cretaceous.

Well an excellent Round of 16 at Madrid:
1. Two lost gen through - Goff and Ninja
2. Two big NextGenners through - Thiem and Zverev - Kyrgios sadly had to serve about 30 kph below his average serve speed with Nadal due to medical issues
3. Borna born again on clay and banishes the Muzziah.

Only three fossils left, but T Rafa in roaring form.

 

[Sereger]

The next/lostGens evaporated in 2 days, again .
So there's only 1 young gun left in the semis to save this tournament from the brutal old men.

 

[Meles]

The next/lostGens evaporated in 2 days, again .
So there's only 1 young gun left in the semis to save this tournament from the brutal old men.

A bit ridiculous. Zverev had just won Munich Sunday and beat in form Cilic Tuesday and then Berdbrain Thursday. Was awesome in the first set with just 3 UEs. Cuevas upped his game and completely trolled Zverev who finally blinked getting broken for the third set ending his two week run. Zverev unseeded beat two seeds this week.

Injurkori is the LostGen hall of shame candidate with his withdraw against Djoko today, but still intending to play Rome. Hall of shame stuff.

Coric has also massively over performed this week beating Murray along the way and will have a great chance against Thiem who he just beat in Miami.

Goffin acquitted himself nicely against Nadal today in an excellent match.

A great, great clay season so far for NextGen.

Djokovic's draw has been a joke with two close wins over players outside the top 100 in the ATP race and the walkover today.

 

[tennisaddict]

Number of big tournaments till date - 5

Number won by Geriatric - 5

Number won by top 3 - 0

Number won by Lost Gen - 0

Number won by Next Gen - 0

 

[I Am Finnish]

A bit ridiculous. Zverev had just won Munich Sunday and beat in form Cilic Tuesday and then Berdbrain Thursday. Was awesome in the first set with just 3 UEs. Cuevas upped his game and completely trolled Zverev who finally blinked getting broken for the third set ending his two week run. Zverev unseeded beat two seeds this week.

Injurkori is the LostGen hall of shame candidate with his withdraw against Djoko today, but still intending to play Rome. Hall of shame stuff.

Coric has also massively over performed this week beating Murray along the way and will have a great chance against Thiem who he just beat in Miami.

Goffin acquitted himself nicely against Nadal today in an excellent match.

A great, great clay season so far for NextGen.

Djokovic's draw has been a joke with two close wins over players outside the top 100 in the ATP race and the walkover today.

Lopez & nico outside The top 100?

 

[Meles]

Lopez & nico outside The top 100?

107 and 122 in the race coming into the week. That's their current level. Djoko just north of 52% points won against Feleciano whose lost almost every match this year. Weakovic.

 

[I Am Finnish]

107 and 122 in the race coming into the week. That's their current level. Djoko just north of 52% points won against Feleciano whose lost almost every match this year. Weakovic.

oh i see
You should bump your Djokovic wont qualifly for the wft topic

 

[Meles]

oh i see
You should bump your Djokovic wont qualifly for the wft topic

Djoko being given 360 points for showing up in Madrid actually doesn't help the case entirely. Rome is upon us.

 

[Meles]

Number of big tournaments till date - 5

Number won by Geriatric - 5

Number won by top 3 - 0

Number won by Lost Gen - 0

Number won by Next Gen - 0

Too bad Fed isn't around to get his can kicked on clay.

Its looking very solid TA. Thiem a point away twice from taking the first set against the King of Clay in superlative form. Thrice he had BPs as King Rafa tried to serve out the match.

The only chink in the NextGen armor is that Rome should have wildcarded Coric into their draw and Kyrgios has back/hip problems again.

Meanwhile the rest of the geriatrics are in full flight so far this clay season. Djokoray worse than expected. Stanimal losing right and left. Zverev takes out Berdych and Cilic (not quite a geriatric). Coric takes out Murray. LostGen showing signs of life. Nishikori withdrawing from spanking Djokovic rather than hurting himself; Injurkori getting smarter. Dimitrov back in full form. Goffin acquitted himself in better fashion versus Nadal. Paire took out Wawrinka.

Transition going extremely well with more to come.

 

[tennisaddict]

^^ @Meles is this a transition year to another transition year ? If so, it makes total sense .

 

[Fate Archer]

I ultimately agree with Meles, even if the new gen isn't quite beating the old guard right now. Three or four years ago, the tour was in a dire condition outside of the usual top four and the interest machine that revolves around them. If you could somehow vanish the iconic top 4 at that time, I think the interest about the game would considerably drop.

The difference right now is that I think the tour is much more prepared to hold interest and offer other compelling and charismatic players if any of the big three or four decides to retire. Now there are players that, even if they aren't accomplishing anywhere near what some of the current top players had already achieved at their age, they can still offer some very good tennis and a interesting prospect to follow.

 

[Bender]

Something worth noting is that Thiem is substantially popular in the way that no other player other than the Big Four is. If Thiem can start winning at the bigger tournaments, he might be the game's next big star.

Throughout Madrid, shouts of encouragements directed at Domi were commonplace--even in the final where, as Thiem himself recognised, was very partisan.

 

[SLD76]

We are transitioning back to 2007-2010

 

[metsman]

Something worth noting is that Thiem is substantially popular in the way that no other player other than the Big Four is. If Thiem can start winning at the bigger tournaments, he might be the game's next big star.

Throughout Madrid, shouts of encouragements directed at Domi were commonplace--even in the final where, as Thiem himself recognised, was very partisan.

He's a solid player, but I have no idea what people see in his game to make them believe he's the next dominant player or even 2nd tier player on the level of Roddick/Hewitt/Safin. It's not pleasing to me stylistically or aesthetically. To each their own though.

 

[Bender]

He's a solid player, but I have no idea what people see in his game to make them believe he's the next dominant player or even 2nd tier player on the level of Roddick/Hewitt/Safin. It's not pleasing to me stylistically or aesthetically. To each their own though.

I like his spirit and his determination, but his game to me looks like the bast@rd child of Berdych's and Nadal's games with very little of their respective intricacies: Hit at 100% power, 100% of the time, but also 100% spin 67% of the time with 100% intensity.

The resulting game is a playing style that is even more one dimensional than either of the players he seems to have modelled his game after. Nadal plays with huge spin and power, but uses it to create ridiculous angles to construct points, and varies his pace quite often. Berdych hits flatter so his shots end points. He also has easy access to power, so Berdych's Plan B of 'hitting the ball even harder' actually works, because you wouldn't be able to tell from the way he swings. Thiem OTOH possesses none of these traits that have made Berdych and Nadal's games so successful over the past decade. He can't create angles at will. He's already hitting at 100% so can't hit any harder. So when someone comes along and pushes Thiem to the limit, he overhits and then beats himself--classic example would be Goffin, who on paper should have no reason to be beating Thiem at all.

 

[metsman]

I like his spirit and his determination, but his game to me looks like the bast@rd child of Berdych's and Nadal's games with very little of their respective intricacies: Hit at 100% power, 100% of the time, but also 100% spin 67% of the time with 100% intensity.

The resulting game is a playing style that is even more one dimensional than either of the players he seems to have modelled his game after. Nadal plays with huge spin and power, but uses it to create ridiculous angles to construct points, and varies his pace quite often. Berdych hits flatter so his shots end points. He also has easy access to power, so Berdych's Plan B of 'hitting the ball even harder' actually works, because you wouldn't be able to tell from the way he swings. Thiem OTOH possesses none of these traits that have made Berdych and Nadal's games so successful over the past decade. He can't create angles at will. He's already hitting at 100% so can't hit any harder. So when someone comes along and pushes Thiem to the limit, he overhits and then beats himself--classic example would be Goffin, who on paper should have no reason to be beating Thiem at all.

I just don't think Thiem is all that gifted a natural ball-striker. He has to compensate with a massive swing and deep court positioning.

And honestly Nadal is perhaps the biggest waste of ball striking talent I've seen besides Safin but that's completely different. He has the talent to be much more aggressive than he really was. His style of play makes people think he isn't all that talented for an ATG, but in reality he has tremendous natural ability, I think more than Djokovic or Murray. That always struck me when I watched him back in 04-05 when he'd play more aggressively and let his ability shine. Or in isolated tournaments like 2006 Wimbledon, 2009 AO, or 2010 USO. But I wouldn't ever tell anyone to play like Rafa. Nadal makes it work because he's a one in a million physical specimen and one in a million fighter.

 

[Bender]

And honestly Nadal is perhaps the biggest waste of ball striking talent I've seen besides Safin but that's completely different. He has the talent to be much more aggressive than he really was. His style of play makes people think he isn't all that talented for an ATG, but in reality he has tremendous natural ability, I think more than Djokovic or Murray. That always struck me when I watched him back in 04-05 when he'd play more aggressively and let his ability shine. Or in isolated tournaments like 2006 Wimbledon, 2009 AO, or 2010 USO. But I wouldn't ever tell anyone to play like Rafa. Nadal makes it work because he's a one in a million physical specimen and one in a million fighter.

Oh, I agree with you on this one 100%.

Probably why I loved watching GrassDal...because it was that one time of the year where we got to see Rafa play more aggressively. But really the damage was done as he developed; his defensive mindset was hard-coded as he grew up. The guy is the tennis equivalent of Bill Gates thinking he needs food stamps. If tennis were an RPG game, then he was given 19 points to invest into Attack and Defence, then put 10 points in defence, 5 points into attack, and forgot to use the remaining 4 points. He should have taken his AO 2004 performance against Hewitt and built up an aggressive game from there, instead of going the other way and modelling his game after Hewitt's. Lleyton had no choice--Rafa has always had far more options!

I'm so glad he hired Moya as coach. Moya has been on record lamenting Rafa's inability (or refusal) to translate his super aggressive playing style during practice to his matches. So far, we're seeing Rafa hit aggressively far more often than we've ever seen him. He's probably hit more attacking DTL BHs in the past three months than he has in his entire career. I wish Moya were brought on half a decade ago at the very least, but still better now than never...

 

[metsman]

Oh, I agree with you on this one 100%.

Probably why I loved watching GrassDal...because it was that one time of the year where we got to see Rafa play more aggressively. But really the damage was done as he developed; his defensive mindset was hard-coded as he grew up. The guy is the tennis equivalent of Bill Gates thinking he needs food stamps. If tennis were an RPG game, then he was given 19 points to invest into Attack and Defence, then put 10 points in defence, 5 points into attack, and forgot to use the remaining 4 points. He should have taken his AO 2004 performance against Hewitt and built up an aggressive game from there, instead of going the other way and modelling his game after Hewitt's. Lleyton had no choice--Rafa has always had far more options!

I'm so glad he hired Moya as coach. Moya has been on record lamenting Rafa's inability (or refusal) to translate his super aggressive playing style during practice to his matches. So far, we're seeing Rafa hit aggressively far more often than we've ever seen him. He's probably hit more attacking DTL BHs in the past three months than he has in his entire career. I wish Moya were brought on half a decade ago at the very least, but still better now than never...

I mean obviously who are we to criticize...14 slams is 14 slams (soon to be 15 probably). But it does feel like he didn't quite achieve his full potential off clay because of his unwillingness to be consistently aggressive. I guess Toni had a specific vision for Rafa that he ingrained in him. I think part of the problem of having family as coach. Much harder to say no.

 

[ByakuFubuki]

I like his spirit and his determination, but his game to me looks like the bast@rd child of Berdych's and Nadal's games with very little of their respective intricacies: Hit at 100% power, 100% of the time, but also 100% spin 67% of the time with 100% intensity.

The resulting game is a playing style that is even more one dimensional than either of the players he seems to have modelled his game after. Nadal plays with huge spin and power, but uses it to create ridiculous angles to construct points, and varies his pace quite often. Berdych hits flatter so his shots end points. He also has easy access to power, so Berdych's Plan B of 'hitting the ball even harder' actually works, because you wouldn't be able to tell from the way he swings. Thiem OTOH possesses none of these traits that have made Berdych and Nadal's games so successful over the past decade. He can't create angles at will. He's already hitting at 100% so can't hit any harder. So when someone comes along and pushes Thiem to the limit, he overhits and then beats himself--classic example would be Goffin, who on paper should have no reason to be beating Thiem at all.

I don't know: against Dimitrov he seemed to rise his level of shotmaking significantly 1-3 down in the Second Set and in the Third Set Tie-Break (provided I didn't pay much attention during that specific point, I'm still surprised Grigor's been 1 mini-break ahead most of the time). Maybe he's trying to develop a "let's keep a 30% power in store" mentality but doesn't feel like doing it against Top Players?

I just don't think Thiem is all that gifted a natural ball-striker. He has to compensate with a massive swing and deep court positioning.

And honestly Nadal is perhaps the biggest waste of ball striking talent I've seen besides Safin but that's completely different. He has the talent to be much more aggressive than he really was. His style of play makes people think he isn't all that talented for an ATG, but in reality he has tremendous natural ability, I think more than Djokovic or Murray. That always struck me when I watched him back in 04-05 when he'd play more aggressively and let his ability shine. Or in isolated tournaments like 2006 Wimbledon, 2009 AO, or 2010 USO. But I wouldn't ever tell anyone to play like Rafa. Nadal makes it work because he's a one in a million physical specimen and one in a million fighter.

I agree. I also usually think about Murray's volleying that way. It was interesting to see him alternating three-meters-behind-the-Baseline points with Serve & Volley in Barcelona, but he didn't seem willing to keep it up in Madrid, so maybe he just wanted to experiment in a minor Tournament.

Oh, I agree with you on this one 100%.

Probably why I loved watching GrassDal...because it was that one time of the year where we got to see Rafa play more aggressively. But really the damage was done as he developed; his defensive mindset was hard-coded as he grew up. The guy is the tennis equivalent of Bill Gates thinking he needs food stamps. If tennis were an RPG game, then he was given 19 points to invest into Attack and Defence, then put 10 points in defence, 5 points into attack, and forgot to use the remaining 4 points. He should have taken his AO 2004 performance against Hewitt and built up an aggressive game from there, instead of going the other way and modelling his game after Hewitt's. Lleyton had no choice--Rafa has always had far more options!

I'm so glad he hired Moya as coach. Moya has been on record lamenting Rafa's inability (or refusal) to translate his super aggressive playing style during practice to his matches. So far, we're seeing Rafa hit aggressively far more often than we've ever seen him. He's probably hit more attacking DTL BHs in the past three months than he has in his entire career. I wish Moya were brought on half a decade ago at the very least, but still better now than never...

Sorry to contradict you twice in a Post, but regarding the RPG analogy I'd rather say that Rafa chose a "Race" with a big Bonus in Attack and a moderate (but still valuable) Bonus in Defence, but then invested all of his Starting Points and most of his early Level-Up Points in the latter, just starting nurturing the former once he put his mind into winning Wimbledon. I'm not sure it makes sense to you or to anyone who may read.

 

[Mazz Retic]

I just don't think Thiem is all that gifted a natural ball-striker. He has to compensate with a massive swing and deep court positioning.

And honestly Nadal is perhaps the biggest waste of ball striking talent I've seen besides Safin but that's completely different. He has the talent to be much more aggressive than he really was. His style of play makes people think he isn't all that talented for an ATG, but in reality he has tremendous natural ability, I think more than Djokovic or Murray. That always struck me when I watched him back in 04-05 when he'd play more aggressively and let his ability shine. Or in isolated tournaments like 2006 Wimbledon, 2009 AO, or 2010 USO. But I wouldn't ever tell anyone to play like Rafa. Nadal makes it work because he's a one in a million physical specimen and one in a million fighter.

I love when Nadal flattens his forehand and he does it so easily too! Wish he did more of it.

 

[Bender]

I don't know: against Dimitrov he seemed to rise his level of shotmaking significantly 1-3 down in the Second Set and in the Third Set Tie-Break (provided I didn't pay much attention during that specific point, I'm still surprised Grigor's been 1 mini-break ahead most of the time). Maybe he's trying to develop a "let's keep a 30% power in store" mentality but doesn't feel like doing it against Top Players?

His biggest points in the Dimitrov match involved him swinging for the fences and painting the lines, so he didn't change his strategy against Nadal, IMO. Difference is that it didn't work against Nadal.

Sorry to contradict you twice in a Post, but regarding the RPG analogy I'd rather say that Rafa chose a "Race" with a big Bonus in Attack and a moderate (but still valuable) Bonus in Defence, but then invested all of his Starting Points and most of his early Level-Up Points in the latter, just starting nurturing the former once he put his mind into winning Wimbledon. I'm not sure it makes sense to you or to anyone who may read.

Well I do need to do a Altmer playthrough, but I have a gut feeling I'll end up being a non-magic stealth archer as usual...

 

[ByakuFubuki]

His biggest points in the Dimitrov match involved him swinging for the fences and painting the lines, so he didn't change his strategy against Nadal, IMO. Difference is that it didn't work against Nadal.

I'm not saying he changed strategy or anything, just that whenever Dimitrov was ahead Thiem suddenly started hitting harder and spinnier and to me it didn't feel like Grigor dropped his level or anything when he got broken back. Then again, the gameplan had been "Hit hard from behind and go for the lines" since the beginning, just that I don't think he went 100% all the time.

Against Nadal I could only see the end of the First Set (from Thiem serving 4-5 down), so I can't be completely sure but for that fraction it looked just as you said: he was giving all he had to every shot keeping the same strategy he used against Dimitrov but it wasn't enough.

Well I do need to do a Altmer playthrough, but I have a gut feeling I'll end up being a non-magic stealth archer as usual...

Well, I'd say Nadal is a bit like a Dunmer who started off focusing primarly on Heavy Armor, Block and the likes and investing every Level-Up Point in Endurance and Strength. Later on he started using some Destruction Magic and tuning on his Blade Skill to compete in a wider range of scenarios against different opponents.

A little shabby but I couldn't come up with anything better

 

[Bender]

I'm not saying he changed strategy or anything, just that whenever Dimitrov was ahead Thiem suddenly started hitting harder and spinnier and to me it didn't feel like Grigor dropped his level or anything when he got broken back. Then again, the gameplan had been "Hit hard from behind and go for the lines" since the beginning, just that I don't think he went 100% all the time. Against Nadal I could only see the end of the First Set (from Thiem serving 4-5 down), so I can't be completely sure but for that fraction it looked just as you said: he was giving all he had to every shot keeping the same strategy he used against Dimitrov but it wasn't enough.


Well, I'd say Nadal is a bit like a Dunmer who started off focusing primarly on Heavy Armor, Block and the likes and investing every Level-Up Point in Endurance and Strength. Later on he started using some Destruction Magic and tuning on his Blade Skill to compete in a wider range of scenarios against different opponents.

A little shabby but I couldn't come up with anything better

Rafa is a Nord who maxed his armor and block skills, and takes down his opponents by 100% shield bashing.

...even though he has dragonbone war hammers and swords at his inventory.

 

[ByakuFubuki]

Rafa is a Nord who maxed his armor and block skills, and takes down his opponents by 100% shield bashing.

...even though he has dragonbone war hammers and swords at his inventory.

I wanted to avoid Nord because I see it as a naturally defensive Race and we were saying he's basically a natural Aggressor (I also associated his underrated touch with a natural predisposition to Magic, although not as developed as in purely Magic Races) who developed as a Defender

But yes, I like your "He has weapons but prefers to use shields" analogy. I couldn't think about it as I didn't play much Skyrim and in Oblivion you can't Shield Bash.

 

[Bender]

I wanted to avoid Nord because I see it as a naturally defensive Race and we were saying he's basically a natural Aggressor (I also associated his underrated touch with a natural predisposition to Magic, although not as developed as in purely Magic Races) who developed as a Defender

But yes, I like your "He has weapons but prefers to use shields" analogy. I couldn't think about it as I didn't play much Skyrim and in Oblivion you can't Shield Bash.

An orc then, who most see as a brutish, aggressive race perhaps? But as physical as Nadal is, he's a lot more intelligent than people give him credit for...so maybe the orc analogy works well.

 

[ByakuFubuki]

An orc then, who most see as a brutish, aggressive race perhaps? But as physical as Nadal is, he's a lot more intelligent than people give him credit for...so maybe the orc analogy works well.

Actually I don't mind it at all. Before I got into Professional Tennis I saw Nadal as a constant aggressor just based on his appearance rather than a relentless defender and so do many casual fans at least where I live. Same goes with Orcs who have a slightly bigger Bonus in Endurance than in Strength. I also like to compare the Orcish "Heavy Armor and Blunt Weapon Hard-Beating" war philosophy with the Spanish Tennis School of great Defence and hard-hammering Inside-Out Forehand.

And if Orcs can make it to the Mages Guild, I don't see how Rafa can't play some Grass-Court Tennis once he puts his mind in it

Damn it, I want to play Oblivion again now.

 

[Bender]

Actually I don't mind it at all. Before I got into Professional Tennis I saw Nadal as a constant aggressor just based on his appearance rather than a relentless defender and so do many casual fans at least where I live. Same goes with Orcs who have a slightly bigger Bonus in Endurance than in Strength. I also like to compare the Orcish "Heavy Armor and Blunt Weapon Hard-Beating" war philosophy with the Spanish Tennis School of great Defence and hard-hammering Inside-Out Forehand.

And if Orcs can make it to the Mages Guild, I don't see how Rafa can't play some Grass-Court Tennis once he puts his mind in it

Damn it, I want to play Oblivion again now.

He's also a member of the thieves guild because of the number of trophies he stole from the High King of Skyrim (fedr).

 

[Meles]

To paraphrase @Meles this is one of the great transition years between generations.

Enjoy it folks

The great transition continues:
1. Thiem dominates Nadal in Rome QF after narrow loss in Madrid (legendary matches)
2. Djokovic creams Thiem the next day (legendary play from Nole for sure that has set the whole year so far up on end.)
3. Zverev awaits Djokovic in the Rome final, the youngest Masters finalist in a long time ready for a big time encounter with a stunningly resurgent Djokovic.

Are you not entertained?

 

[Meles]

Rafa is a Nord who maxed his armor and block skills, and takes down his opponents by 100% shield bashing.

...even though he has dragonbone war hammers and swords at his inventory.

Who got smoked by Thiem.

 

[abmk]

yeah, such a great transition year that thiem went from beating rafa in straights to winning one game vs djokovic

 

[Meles]

yeah, such a great transition year that thiem went from beating rafa in straights to winning one game vs djokovic

Its interesting, no?

FFS Djokovic seems to be responding to eating fish or something. Nightmarishly good today and just adds to the mix. Seems suddenly bent on breaking up these Fedal vs NextGen matches, but he himself is ten years older than Zverev and they meet in a masters 1000 final tomorrow.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Federer versus Sampras clash, but both were no where near their best. With Grandpaerer still running around in great form this is just crazy stuff.

Thiem has done his job on clay with his Nadal beating yesterday plus Madrid and any more clashes of the ages this year for him are a bonus though we can hope for more at RG.

Zverev at this point is getting close to owning every Servebot on tour. This is amazingly good for the game as Zverev is a much more complete player. His next clash with Feddybot may be very nice. Almost 16 year age gap.

This will be just crazy if Zverev shows some gumption in the Rome final againt Djoko unlike his first encounter with Nadal in Monte Carlo.

Kygrios is down and out for now with injury, but so close. Pouille is looking ready to take it to the next level. Big 3 these players are not, but their formidable offense may put many of them ahead of Murray in the end. Champions in my mind. Zverev is the only one with any hope of long term ATG like success (nearing 10 slams or something.)

When you look back in history a decade from now this will be a mighty, mighty top 10 or so this year.

 

[abmk]

Its interesting, no?

FFS Djokovic seems to be responding to eating fish or something. Nightmarishly good today and just adds to the mix. Seems suddenly bent on breaking up these Fedal vs NextGen matches, but he himself is ten years older than Zverev and they meet in a masters 1000 final tomorrow.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Federer versus Sampras clash, but both were no where near their best. With Grandpaerer still running around in great form this is just crazy stuff.

Thiem has done his job on clay with his Nadal beating yesterday plus Madrid and any more clashes of the ages this year for him are a bonus though we can hope for more at RG.

Zverev at this point is getting close to owning every Servebot on tour. This is amazingly good for the game as Zverev is a much more complete player. His next clash with Feddybot may be very nice. Almost 16 year age gap.

This will be just crazy if Zverev shows some gumption in the Rome final againt Djoko unlike his first encounter with Nadal in Monte Carlo.

Kygrios is down and out for now with injury, but so close. Pouille is looking ready to take it to the next level. Big 3 these players are not, but their formidable offense may put many of them ahead of Murray in the end. Champions in my mind. Zverev is the only one with any hope of long term ATG like success (nearing 10 slams or something.)

When you look back in history a decade from now this will be a mighty, mighty top 10 or so this year.

its not a transition unless one of the young guys wins a Masters tournament or reaches a slam final doing well/winning a slam.

 

[metsman]

Its interesting, no?

FFS Djokovic seems to be responding to eating fish or something. Nightmarishly good today and just adds to the mix. Seems suddenly bent on breaking up these Fedal vs NextGen matches, but he himself is ten years older than Zverev and they meet in a masters 1000 final tomorrow.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Federer versus Sampras clash, but both were no where near their best. With Grandpaerer still running around in great form this is just crazy stuff.

Thiem has done his job on clay with his Nadal beating yesterday plus Madrid and any more clashes of the ages this year for him are a bonus though we can hope for more at RG.

Zverev at this point is getting close to owning every Servebot on tour. This is amazingly good for the game as Zverev is a much more complete player. His next clash with Feddybot may be very nice. Almost 16 year age gap.

This will be just crazy if Zverev shows some gumption in the Rome final againt Djoko unlike his first encounter with Nadal in Monte Carlo.

Kygrios is down and out for now with injury, but so close. Pouille is looking ready to take it to the next level. Big 3 these players are not, but their formidable offense may put many of them ahead of Murray in the end. Champions in my mind. Zverev is the only one with any hope of long term ATG like success (nearing 10 slams or something.)

When you look back in history a decade from now this will be a mighty, mighty top 10 or so this year.

Zverev getting anywhere near 10 slams would be tragic. Only way for it to happen would be for his generation and the next one to be garbage.

I see Zverev best case resembling Delpo with no injury woes. I could have seen healthy Delpo get to 3-4 slams with strong competition so maybe Zverev can approach 5-6 against weak competition because by default he'll be the best of his generation. But that's the max.

 

[ByakuFubuki]

[...]The closest thing that comes to mind is Federer versus Sampras clash, but both were no where near their best.[...]

Djokovic and (possibly) Zverev are also nowhere near their best, so I think it's pretty spot-on. It should have happened at the Australian Open, though And I doubt it will be their only Head to Head, unless Djokovic decides he doesn't like to be a Professional anymore, since 30 is pretty young to retire nowadays.

He's also a member of the thieves guild because of the number of trophies he stole from the High King of Skyrim (fedr).

Well, we're in a Weak Era of Leveled NPCs and with the Homogenised Factions becoming the Leader of every Guild in a playthrough isn't the hard task it once was in my opinion. In 2003 (Morrowind), the plots would have collided, so we really had true specialists.

Spoiler

At first I didn't answer not to go way too Off-Topic, but in the end I couldn't resist But what's that series of Pictures, a mod?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Well, at least on clay, a transition is underway. Two back to back events where one of the finalists was sub 25 and (obviously) not one of the Big Four/Wawrinka. If it happens at RG, there will no longer be any doubt that this is a transition year. Going forward, it will depend on whether the likes of Zverev or Thiem can keep up their level or will fade away like Nishi and Cilic have after contesting the only non big four final after Safin v/s Hewitt. The odds are in their favour because the Big Four are three years older now. But are they as talented (even) as Cilic or Nishi is the question. I know there is a big hypetrain riding on both Z and Thiem but it is not so clear cut that say Z is more talented than Cilic (and Nishi is clearly more talented than Thiem). He may have more potential but that's different (and it's not at all clear that he will ever have a forehand as good as Cilic's). Let's see.

 

[NatF]

The great transition continues:
1. Thiem dominates Nadal in Rome QF after narrow loss in Madrid (legendary matches)
2. Djokovic creams Thiem the next day (legendary play from Nole for sure that has set the whole year so far up on end.)
3. Zverev awaits Djokovic in the Rome final, the youngest Masters finalist in a long time ready for a big time encounter with a stunningly resurgent Djokovic.

Are you not entertained?

It's great that Zverev is in the final, hopefully he wins more than a game. Right now the transition seems to be the Nextgen supplanting the tier 2 guys, hopefully we'll see them start to win big soon.

 

[zagor]

I mean obviously who are we to criticize...14 slams is 14 slams (soon to be 15 probably). But it does feel like he didn't quite achieve his full potential off clay because of his unwillingness to be consistently aggressive. I guess Toni had a specific vision for Rafa that he ingrained in him. I think part of the problem of having family as coach. Much harder to say no.

I get yours and Bender's point, I remember 5-6 years ago when Nadal let loose on his FH side in some exo (maybe it was against Fed, can't remember) and this forum's bewilderment that the guy had as big or bigger FH than Delpo, Gonzo and Soderling when he flattens it out more often.

However, it's not easy for any player to dominate one surface and then alter his gameplan siginificantly to tackle different conditions (or opponents), they're not robots. A more aggressive Nadal might have achieved more off clay but at the same time his clay dominance might have suffered or he might not have done as well on the big stage against his biggest rivals like Fed and Novak, you could have seen in his last few matches against Nadal how much faster pace of the match suited Fed for example compared to the grueling prospect of having to endure the heavyness of Nadal's FH in long rallies for hours (how many times have you seen Novak missing routine overheads and Fed having labored footwork near the end of their contests against Nadal).

In general I think the adaptability, tactics and variety of ATG players tend be overrated (true tennis tacticians are guys like Gilbert or Goffin because they have to be due to their lack of big weapons), most of them dominated in large part due to pig-headed stubborness and belief in their A game, that it can transcend surfaces and beat all opponents. For how many years now have we seen Novak and Fed trying to play their HC game on clay, or Nadal defending like crazy and using heavy spin on HC? It's because that's who they are at their core. One big exception I can think of is Borg which makes his achievements and the manner in which he did it quite unique to this day.

Nadal is more aggressive of both wings this year in part due to Moya's coaching but mostly because he can't rely on his defense, movement and even stamina as much as he did (otherwise I doubt he would have listened). Same goes for Fed who has to pressure opponents consistently off both wings now to mask his physical deficiencies at this stage of his career. When people wonder why he wasn't he so aggressive off the BH wing before or why he didn't come over as much on the ROS, well that's because his BH slice, chipping serves back coupled with his terrific transition from defense to offense and GOAT FH drove 99% of the tour crazy in his peak days of 2004-2007. It's hard to get players with extraordinary defense (and yes I number peak Fed among them) to commit to a low % gameplan until said defense loses its effectiveness against the field.

 

[Meles]

Well, at least on clay, a transition is underway. Two back to back events where one of the finalists was sub 25 and (obviously) not one of the Big Four/Wawrinka. If it happens at RG, there will no longer be any doubt that this is a transition year. Going forward, it will depend on whether the likes of Zverev or Thiem can keep up their level or will fade away like Nishi and Cilic have after contesting the only non big four final after Safin v/s Hewitt. The odds are in their favour because the Big Four are three years older now. But are they as talented (even) as Cilic or Nishi is the question. I know there is a big hypetrain riding on both Z and Thiem but it is not so clear cut that say Z is more talented than Cilic (and Nishi is clearly more talented than Thiem). He may have more potential but that's different (and it's not at all clear that he will ever have a forehand as good as Cilic's). Let's see.

Excellent timing from @NatF creating this thread. Thiem is entering his prime this year and we are starting to see what he can do at his best and its not bad. Clay and grass are the most viable surfaces for young players so its going to continue to happen through the grass season, but then it will be a harder road (especially for Thiem) on hard courts where Fed and most of the tour has proven that age is no handicap, but is actually an asset (Wawrinka at US Open last year was a triumph of strength and stamina.)

Interesting comparisons especially Zverev vs Cilic (There is no compariosn between Thiem and Nishikori on clay. Nishikori might still have the game to beat Thiem on clay, but he is much weaker against the field as this year has shown with Nishikori plummeting in the rankings while Thiem has prospered on clay.) They have a similar return level and even this year and last Cilic is still better than Zverev on return, but Zverev is now zooming up on his serve numbers at an alarming rate. In 2016 on hard courts Zverev won 64.2%; so far in 2017 on more return oriented courts Zverev has hit 67.7% serve points won.

Marin Cilic at the same age was just 64.8% for the year. Cilic the last 4 years has been in the 67-68% range. Zverev could do very, very well on hard courts later this year if he continues to improve (a slam dunk at his age.) On clay at Rome and Madrid, Zverev has proven himself king of the servebots. He's brought in the serve game from hard courts and on clay he's a class above the rest of the big players on return with his ability to break (like Cilic.) Zverev at age 20, not even in his prime is already set to surpass Cilic's best years and that is where the comparison ends as Zverev's career is now on a trajectory to eclipse Cilic. Kyrgios at age 20 (two years ago) achieved 67.7% serve points won on hard courts. We know of Zverev's deficiencies and how much room for improvement he has in his serve game (attacking and forehand) plus how much better he is than Kyrgios in so many departments. The super servebot is upon us and its not Kyrgios. On reviewing Zed's stats this morning this is alarmingly good. We have a monster emerging before our eyes this year. Nadal's schooling of a lesser Zverev in Monte Carlo may have thrown us all off the scent. Last year Zverev's stats made a big move up on clay (way ahead of his hard courts) and its happening again.

This kid may put himself on the map as a huge RG contender today. @Gary Duane these stats are crazy good on serve for Z.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Zverev could do very, very well on hard courts later this year if he continues to improve (a slam dunk at his age.) On clay at Rome and Madrid, Zverev has proven himself king of the servebots. He's brought in the serve game from hard courts and on clay he's a class above the rest of the big players on return with his ability to break (like Cilic.) Zverev at age 20, not even in his prime is already set to surpass Cilic's best years and that is where the comparison ends as Zverev's career is now on a trajectory to eclipse Cilic.

So, in essence, I am not disagreeing with you except that I don't assume that the potential WILL be actualised and would rather wait and watch.

 

[Meles]

I get yours and Bender's point, I remember 5-6 years ago when Nadal let loose on his FH side in some exo (maybe it was against Fed, can't remember) and this forum's bewilderment that the guy had as big or bigger FH than Delpo, Gonzo and Soderling when he flattens it out more often.

However, it's not easy for any player to dominate one surface and then alter his gameplan siginificantly to tackle different conditions (or opponents), they're not robots. A more aggressive Nadal might have achieved more off clay but at the same time his clay dominance might have suffered or he might not have done as well on the big stage against his biggest rivals like Fed and Novak, you could have seen in his last few matches against Nadal how much faster pace of the match suited Fed for example compared to the grueling prospect of having to endure the heavyness of Nadal's FH in long rallies for hours (how many times have you seen Novak missing routine overheads and Fed having labored footwork near the end of their contests against Nadal).

In general I think the adaptability, tactics and variety of ATG players tend be overrated (true tennis tacticians are guys like Gilbert or Goffin because they have to be due to their lack of big weapons), most of them dominated in large part due to pig-headed stubborness and belief in their A game, that it can transcend surfaces and beat all opponents. For how many years now have we seen Novak and Fed trying to play their HC game on clay, or Nadal defending like crazy and using heavy spin on HC? It's because that's who they are at their core. One big exception I can think of is Borg which makes his achievements and the manner in which he did it quite unique to this day.

Nadal is more aggressive of both wings this year in part due to Moya's coaching but mostly because he can't rely on his defense, movement and even stamina as much as he did (otherwise I doubt he would have listened). Same goes for Fed who has to pressure opponents consistently off both wings now to mask his physical deficiencies at this stage of his career. When people wonder why he wasn't he so aggressive off the BH wing before or why he didn't come over as much on the ROS, well that's because his BH slice, chipping serves back coupled with his terrific transition from defense to offense and GOAT FH drove 99% of the tour crazy in his peak days of 2004-2007. It's hard to get players with extraordinary defense (and yes I number peak Fed among them) to commit to a low % gameplan until said defense loses its effectiveness against the field.

Now we are wondering what Nadal might have done with Moya coaching him much earlier and a less conservative mindset? The power or the super coach seems to be on the rise, but then we have Djokovic back from the dead seemingly after going coachless. Interesting times.

 

[Meles]

So, in essence, I am not disagreeing with you except that I don't assume that the potential WILL be actualised and would rather wait and watch.

Yes. I track stats and past stat trajectories for other players to make my outlandish claims. Its possible that Jez Green has already got Zverev at an early physical peak and this is all he has to offer, but I doubt it. This is the foundation for all my seemingly irrational exhuberence; history is on my side.

 

[Meles]

Zverev getting anywhere near 10 slams would be tragic. Only way for it to happen would be for his generation and the next one to be garbage.

I see Zverev best case resembling Delpo with no injury woes. I could have seen healthy Delpo get to 3-4 slams with strong competition so maybe Zverev can approach 5-6 against weak competition because by default he'll be the best of his generation. But that's the max.

Zed is emerging as a super servebot who can play on all surfaces.

 

[DRII]

It's great that Zverev is in the final, hopefully he wins more than a game. Right now the transition seems to be the Nextgen supplanting the tier 2 guys, hopefully we'll see them start to win big soon.

 

[NatF]

Happy to be wrong.

 

[Skeletroll]

@Meles You were correct about this year being the breakthrough year for the young guys. Despite Nadal and Fed's dominance early this year, Kyrgios, Zverev, and Thiem have played some great matches and now we have a 20 year old Masters winner

 

[DRII]

Happy to be wrong.

guess you're happy all the time.