Benhur's quote : Ah, we must rearrange the entire history of tennis to fit Borg as number one in 77. Eliminate all slams won by players in Australia prior to the 80s or something. Call them something else. Take away Laver's grand slams. etc. Excellent.
If there is someone (as Krosero put it in a post) who doesn’t rate Borg as high as many others, this is me. I don’t want to rearrange history to the benefit of Borg at all. See all my posts in the "Björn Borg great at AKAI nov 1982" thread and you will understand that I am not at all a Borg's fan.
It is that I deeply wonder if Vilas deserved the 1st place in 1977. I'm very doubtful to say the least.
Secondly I didn’t say to eliminate all the Australian tourneys but I perfectly given the years when the Australian tourney was very depleted : from 1972 to 1982 and certainly not 1969 (quite depleted in 1970 and always depleted in the amateur era). Quite a good tourney in 1969, 1971 and since 1983 (and became a true Slam in the late 1980's-early 1990's).
Benhur's quote :And I suppose the French was depleted also or otherwise anemic in 77 and does not really count as a slam. In addition, Borg was not there so it cannot count, just like the Australian. Borg must be the only player whose sainthood is sho shiny that its fans declare that when he didn't deign attend a slam, the slam does not really count as such. And of course the USO does not count because there were too many rowdy Argentineans who distracted Connors, and when Borg lost in the fourth round, well then of course the tournament lost its status until next year... So yeah, in general, Vilas FO + Vilas USO + Vilas AO final are at best equal, and probably worse, than Borg's Wimbledon. And of course Vilas 18 tournaments and 145 matches won are just a triviality.
At Roland Garros not only Borg was absent but Connors, Gerulaitis, Tanner and Stockton (Orantes too but he was injured) all in the Top10 or very close.
(Connors were absent in many RG won by Borg and Panatta, besides taht, I don't think Stockton was a problem to Vilas on clay, maybe Orantes and Gerulaitis) While at the Masters that year every good player tried to qualify and to win it. The Masters (held in January 1978 ) was worth at least the 1977 depleted Roland Garros and the Australian Open was merely an ordinary national tournament with some foreign players lost “Down Under”. Once again the Australian Open was nothing in those times. Even great Australians sometimes didn’t enter their own championship (as Laver since 1972, Rosewall in 1974-1975 and in 1975 Newcombe said to the tournament director that he didn’t want to play except if the director gave Newk a guarantee that Connors would play. Do you imagine nowadays a Tsonga telling to the French Federation that he would play Garros only if Nadal comes ?). The Australian Open was nothing at the time
(Disagree with "nothing"). Edmondson won it when he was beyond the 200th place in the ATP ranking
(though I never liked that ranking it isn’t an absolute stupid ranking and even in the 70’s it gave a rough idea of a player’s level).
Such a surprise would be (almost) impossible in a "true" Slam (for the moment the lowest ranked winner in a true Slam is Kuerten, 66th) : it gives an indication of the Australian field at the time : quite weak
(this time agree, but nothing is too much).
So after these arguments we don’t compare a US win + a French win + an Australian final (on Vilas's side) against a Wimby win (Borg's)
but a US win (with a Borg injured -
not Vilas fault) + a French win (with half of the Top10 absent which is much important -
like I said before, Connors never went until late 70, Orantes injured, Borg and Geurlaitis banned cause it's choices of WTT) against a Wimby win (with all the best present
-like USO- and at their best (Connors slightly injured in his "non-playing" hand) + a Masters final (with all the players wanting to qualify for it) with Borg beating Vilas
(and Vilas beating the champion Connors)
(the Masters that year was probably the 3rd event possibly tied with the depleted French Open, see eventually
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2840980&postcount=46 and
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2840980&postcount=47 for a list of the 4 greatest events of each year since 1950).
So in major events Borg was close to Vilas (because Vilas’s feats in 1977 are overrated by you and others)
Other thing : why Vilas that year won so many tournaments and matches ? Because some great players (as Borg, Gerulaitis and Nastase) played WTT and so missed many tournaments in particular the US summer season
(I recognize that Gerulaitis “broke” his WTT contract by playing the Italian Open that he wasn’t allowed to enter because he had WTT matches to play at the same time but defaulted them).
So once again Vilas’s record in “ordinary” (by opposition to major) tournaments is less impressive than it seems at first sight. Most of Vilas’s victories were obtained without Borg (and Gerulaitis) present. But most of the time when Borg and Vilas were in the same draw, Vilas didn’t win while Borg did win or at least beat Vilas. In particular at Nice, Monte Carlo and New York (Masters). The reason why Borg defeated Vilas wasn't because his strongest shots could exploit Vilas’ weakest shots
(as was the case with Laver who played his backhand return to the weak Ashe’s forehand volley) or because Borg mentally owned Vilas
but simply because every Borg’s strokes were better than Vilas’s, from the service to the forehand and from the backhand to the volley
(agree but the topic is not about greatest player)
If Borg and Gerulaitis preferred to play the WTT circuit in 1977 (as Newcombe did in 1974, Connors in 1974, Rosewall in 1974, Nastase from 1976 to 1978 and some other greats) it just indicates that the traditional tournaments weren’t so important at the time. The WTT organizers never held their event during Wimbledon and the US Open because those events were then the truly great events but they held their circuit during the French and Italian Opens because those tourneys weren’t that important (nowadays in the 2000’s no one dares to directly attack the French Open but in the early and mid-70’s it wasn’t a great event for many). So if Borg’s record (and Gerulaitis’ and others’) in “ordinary” tournaments seemed much less impressive than Vilas, the
"much" is a wrong view.
Vilas won so much in 1977 in part because Borg, Gerulaitis and others were absent in many events. (
cause Borg and Vitas own choices, the tennis "system" in that times "allows" that - everybody forgets that if Vilas would not went to the 2 previous Wimby grass tournies, and play on clay (don't remember the event in that part of the season) he would catch the computer number one cause the ELO points, so not all in Vilas 77 is mere clever selection of events)
So in majors Borg was close to Vilas.
In ordinary events Borg was pretty closer to Vilas than pure stats seem to state.
And in head-to-head meetings Borg was clearly superior to Vilas.
(agree)
These 3 points make me think that Borg and Vilas were very very close that year.
Perhaps I didn’t express it very clearly in previous quotes :
I don’t claim that Borg was certainly the #1 in 1977
but I strongly contradict the reverse claim that is that Vilas was certainly the #1 as you state in your “Of course. 1977 clearly belongs to Vilas.”
So in my opinion both records were very close (Vilas perhaps slightly ahead) but head-to-head records being clearly in Borg's favour I suppose that perhaps Borg was #1 but I can't be sure. But I repeat I'm not sure at all that Vilas was undoubtedly the #1.
However I recognize that Vilas was clearly better in 1977 than in surrouding years (1976, 1978 ) because he had hugely improved between 1976 and 1977 and because in 1978 he didn’t recover from his great tiredness due to his very very long 1977 season.