MTO's have to go!
- Thread starter Robert F
- Start date
oldmanfan
Legend
I agree with the penalty of 2 games (current game + 1 more game, or 2 full games if during a changeover). This will stop the fake MTOs, and the real MTOs still exist to look after players' health. But the games penalties need to exist.
Also, I think @Tennis_Hands 's penalty schedule is great:
1 game loss for first MTO,
1 set loss for 2nd MTO,
and a full forfeit if a 3rd MTO is needed.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
What if it wasn’t only games/sets. What if they did have to pay for it. In cash, with no insurance accepted and a pricing scale that increases with each MTO. And the payment was raffled off to a ticket holder. (Most) ticket holders are not there to watch a player get a massage and it’s not TV ratings friendly either. This could turn the MTO into a fan friendly experience and cause people to pause before flipping the channel.
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beard
Legend
That would get rid of fake MTOs for lower ranked players and INCREASE them for higher ranked players.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Yes I thought about the issue of the less earnings rich players but that type of issue permeates tennis and shouldn’t block reforming the MTO rule from a crowd buzz kill to a reason to sit through a Milos match.
What would you call them? If you paid more, could you take longer? For a million, could you delay until tomorrow or the week after?
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
No, same rule with all the same time limits. But you have to pay in cash before they call the MTO — same price for all players — and while you’re getting “treatment’ they have the raffle.
One thing for sure, tennis competition rules need updating: MTO, toilet breaks, unsportsmanlike conduct, ball and racket smashing... etc. The rules also need enforcing and umpires should be empowered against top players. Another thing for sure, if players have a say about it, they will always get their way and choose the dishonest options, so the rules need to be decided on by the relevant bodies without going back to the players.
Okay, I'll concede that could be fun .. but it needs to be in addition to the game penalty because it will make little difference to the frequency of fake MTOs, just make them more fun and give a financial punishment for being genuinely hurt.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
This is why we have a PTPA.
That is why we should not have a PTPA. You must be kidding. Can you imagine Djokovic deciding on MTOs? That would be farcical.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is one player. The PTPA is comprised of a group. And your point seems to be no PTPA so the players can be dictated to. If that’s the general tack taken I can see the ATP coming apart sooner rather than later.
You can’t possibly expect to improve the rules by letting the players have a say? They would naturally opt for rules that are advantageous for them. I’m not sure who came up with the idea of MTO in the first place. I remember a time when they didn’t even exist, not long ago.
oldmanfan
Legend
No, what you propose is not sport, well maybe fight sport...
Won't happen...
You're a Djokr fan, and you don't understand the concept of being fitter? Djokr wins so many matches bc he's fitter than his opponent. Kudos to him! MTOs for real injuries are just an extension of fitness. I'm not saying tennis can't have MTOs (they can and SHOULD), but you must reward the healthy player with at least 1 game for having his/her momentum snapped bc of the MTO of the opponent.
The current enforcement of the MTO rules gives no tangible advantages to the fitter player, and has in fact proven to punish them many a times bc they tend to lose the momentum when match play resumes. See the Shapo/PCB match in the QFs, where Shapo annihilated PCB 6-0, yet PCB came back 10x better in the 5th set. Shapo gained nothing from PCB's MTO, while PCB gained everything. The MTO didn't turn the Serena/Vika match bc Vika was too experienced. But it almost worked. It likely would've saved Serena had it happened to less experienced players.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
With my rule many fans will look forward to a potential MTO and not be bothered by the frequency. Increased MTO frequency could make a match more popular. And tennis is after all an entertainment product. I haven’t though through the details and I’m not dismissing your tweak.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Suddenly, taking an MTO down 2-5 doesn't seem such a good idea...I have proposed an easy fix to that:
First MTO > forfeit your next service game
Second MTO > forfeit the next set
Third MTO > forfeit the match
If a player steps on court, he is fit to play. If he needs three MTO, that clearly isn't the case, and if he needs three MTO's and then goes on to win the match, he is clearly faking the severity of the problem to begin with.
Unfortunately, MTO's have become part of the disruptive tactics and if there is cheating it is apparently good for the show, and so no one wants to remove that.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Yes tennis players should have a voice in all aspects of their sport. A shocking idea, I know. You sound like management.
I believe this match was the genesis of the newer MTO rule at least as far as cramping.
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Fedinkum
Legend
You see, I like watching tennis, as in the game of tennis. I am not a fan of non-tennis related strategy play. I might as well watch chess if I were into straight up mind wrestling.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
True.
She actually said she was panicking- then said she was misquoted.
It was against Sloane Stephens, whom if l remember correctly, had previously beaten Serena Williams.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
We never see a player being 2 sets up in a slam, dominating, and needing a MTO.
With some players and they aren’t dominating, you just know an MTO is coming. It’s frankly just lame and gives the sport a bad reputation.
Think about other sports, how they fall all the time but still able to continue and play top notch.Think about if all sports had MTO, stop it there, I need massage for a sore muscle or some energy drinks. It doesn’t happen elsewhere but tennis.
Maybe it shouldn’t be allowed with MTO at all. If you are injured you shouldn’t play anyway, as it is in all other sports.
coolboarder
Rookie
I do not say getting on serve on 0-30 deficit. I said, on their next service game, your non-injured opponent on serve 30-0. It's only fair that way. If you are injured and you will immediately on serve after MTO, it's love and love, not love-30 deficit, but if it's their next service game, it's 30-love for them right after MTO (non-changeover). You might get some momentum on your serve but your opponent actually lose its momentum and needing 30-love and win two points to regain their momentum and holding their serves easier to make it equal. It's not fair for your non-injured player to have some pressure because your opponent has a lot more movement and momentum in that MTO helped him and your opponent actually having to fight harder to hold his serve when he lost his service momentum because of MTO. Two quick points and put the pressure back on injured player is only fair way. If you give penalty to injured player a game, your opponent do not get to serve for a long while, return games, MTO, game penalty, returning game, changeover finally got his service game, losing his service game momentum that way. That is why I propose 30-love rule.Why is it "excessive"?
You do realise that a person taking a MTO (and especially as the things stand now even in your opponent's service game) is trying to disrupt their opponent's momentum. Getting on serve even with 0-30 deficit still gives them enough hope to take advantage of the said disruption, as by definition they have better chances to hold in their service games. IF they automatically lose their service game and their opponent has the chance to pounce by continuing serving I really doubt that the strategical MTOs will pay off. Some still may try to use them, if they are desperate, but it is definitely past the point of equilibrium and in the territory of the diminishing returns.
megamind
Legend
Fake it toll you make it, as they do in the soccer world
It happens in the NFL (american football) and the NBA (american basketball).
I cant really think of other sports that have self called timeouts
I believe this match was the genesis of the newer MTO rule at least as far as cramping.
This made officals allowed to help a downed player, couldnt touch before
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I didn't understand anything from your example. It is unclear to me who should receive what advantage and why.
you do understand that 20k might be a lot of money for the player who is first year in the top 100, and nothing top the Big 4?
and what means "cash", should the players walk around with a bag full of cash, just in case if they need the MTO?
Tennis_Hands
Banned
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
I know sports that have self called timeouts and it’s used by both teams and not related to injuries. It’s different than MTO. You don’t feel they do it to cheat.It happens in the NFL (american football) and the NBA (american basketball).
I cant really think of other sports that have self called timeouts
That’s an interesting idea. Let the players call for timeouts anytime in the match, once per set. At least they don’t have to pretend to be injured and keep some self respect.
Both break rythem, their intent. Tennis didnt have this before, tennis is very mental, breaking someone down getting a couple free UE's is its design. Running someone side to side to the point they need a break is also a strat, we cant just call time out without a penalty or it gets abused. Like we are seeing
Until i see someone getting carried off, i know they are soft. The "injuries" are exahaggerated (sp).
but those time-outs are probably limited to 60 seconds?
how does this compare to the MTO?
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah as I said timeouts aren’t like MTO at all. It’s not comparable and used differently.
Maybe they could have one timeout each in tennis and use it as they want. Makes it equal.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
Yes. I don’t think I mentioned numbers though. It’s presumably an emergency situation so I was thinking first MTO around the cost of a trip to an emergency room in the city where you’re going to get hit with a basic 5k-10k bill just for showing up (because freedom or something). Subsequent MTOs would be at increased cost.
Yes, players would be responsible for having the cash on hand if they want to be able to take a MTO but the tournament would provide someone to be responsible for bringing it to and holding it at the court. It would be more theatrical to have a case with the money and an actual exchange of cash on the court. If you have any prize money due from the tournament then possibly they could allow a cash advance against it. These are logistics that need to be worked out such as expenses of the money handler and who pays for such service.
Do you like the idea ? The details can be worked out.
The practical purpose of timeouts, at least in basketball, is to break the winning team’s momentum.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes but both teams are doing it. It’s so common to do it to break momentum. They are trained for this since kids. We also did timeouts when I was 14 playing basketball. You just know the timeout will come and it’s not really breaking that much momentum since it’s sort of just a part of the play.
It’s not only used to break momentum though in basketball and other sports.
So let’s stop pretending and make it legalI think that’s the idea in tennis too.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
When you have timeouts you don’t need to fake something.
outside US, those numbers are much lower.
and then again:
1. we don't see often, or we see rarely that the winning player takes an MTO, so unsurprisingly many people consider them to be tactical rather than medical
2. if we come back to the player's wealth, it would favor the players that are longer on tour, with higher career prize money and higher endorsements
outside of US, in a bunch of countries that is a terrible idea.
people get killed for much smaller amounts in many countries.
once the bad folks know that tennis players have to carry so much cash around, what do you think will happen?
armored cars are not a luxury item in Brazil or Colombia for example
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
You shouldn’t be allowed to touch a player. Some of those “medical massages“ get pretty handsy. Who knows what’s going on under the towel.
Hmmm, I’m not even sure about that. If the timeout doesn’t break the momentum, I wouldn’t be surprised if they also ask for a MTO
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
That one by me went way south.
The players would not have to carry the money themselves.The tournament would handle that. These are details that can be worked out including satisfying safety concerns. Are you on board with the concept ?
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
If both players are allowed to have a timeout, no MTO, not needing to specify the reason. The opponent knows what’s going on. When you do a fake MTO it sort of let’s the opponent and people watching hanging not knowing what it really was.Hmmm, I’m not even sure about that. If the timeout doesn’t break the momentum, I wouldn’t be surprised if they also ask for a MTO
That one by me went way south.
The players would not have to carry the money themselves.The tournament would handle that. These are details that can be worked out including satisfying safety concerns. Are you on board with the concept ?
I like better the idea of being allowed the MTO only between games, and only before your own service.
With penalties in form of games / sets for every additional MTO.
Or, having a limit on MTOs, but as well having the possibility to call a time-out and talk to the coach.
Like the talking was allowed at the Next Gen finals.
But thats what they now are in tennis. Serena didnt even have to fake it tonight, not a single pt played limping.
The person under the towel probably knows, what kind of logic is this?
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
But my idea is more fan friendly. Don’t dismiss it yet. Think about it for a while. We can improve it where you think it’s weak.
beard
Legend
MTOs are often misused, everyone knows that, but this is the matter of health... If you want to do something good for tennis start from changes that can not in danger health... MTOs just won't be cancelled and rules about it can't be changed a lot...
Players simply must be prepared that opponent can use MTO in wrong way... Nothing can't be done...
They arent gladiators fighting to the death, just default the match if times are that dire in reguards to health.
I have never seen a doc call the match due to injury like i see in the UFC, its a massage or pedicure like in your boys case.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Let TTW armchair experts decide if the MTO is legit or not. This is the only rule needed to be honest.
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