Need advice to add muscle mass to legs
- Thread starter Texas Scrambler
- Start date
Split squat is like a stationary lunge but with one foot elevated.. It's quite hard because removing that back foot forces your front foot to do all the work.Michael Boyle is a big proponent and a hugely influential (some would say hated) strength coach. The so called father of 'functional' training. Which some people call a dirty word..This is a pretty nice article to give you an idea:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...rformance/build_bigger_legs_one_at_a_time&cr=
It's been promoted by the controversial hockey/strength coach for BU Michael Boyle. His whole premise is that single leg training - and in particular the split squat is going to lead to better on court/on ice performance because most of the time you are using a single leg AND the more upright poster takes the lower back out of it (which is often the weak point for an athlete).
I tend to agree - and believe that lunges (with lower weights because they are tricky) and the split squat (which can be loaded with a barbell) are probably alot more useful for the tennis player..There is actually a huge rift out there in the sports training world..We have 'traditionalists' that argue for the big barbell lifts (deadlifts, back squats, barbell row, barbell bench press, and the overhead press) as really the weight training an athlete needs..
And the 'new school' guys that argue for things like single leg training because the movements more closely match what you do on the court. The problem for the traditional folks of course is that once you start arguing that the squat is more 'functional' then say a leg press.. Well isn't a split squat more functional then that? If a bench press is more functional then a chest machine - isn't a dumbell press more functional? And so on..
What I have noticed is that instead of doing a few core lifts (like a Rippetoe would have) lots of sports performance coaches are doing a rather incredible array of different exercises. I think people are attracted to the simplicity and ego involved in something like starting strength.. But its hard to argue with a guy like Boyle's logic, IMHO. But this is totally off topic - no one really likes the leg press for sports performance outside of bike guys. (which makes alot of sense if you think about the motion of riding a bike).
The people who like the leg press a whole lot are body builders.
Another split squat video for the folks who don't want to read the t-nation article:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7D44aAPKk&feature=related
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...rformance/build_bigger_legs_one_at_a_time&cr=
It's been promoted by the controversial hockey/strength coach for BU Michael Boyle. His whole premise is that single leg training - and in particular the split squat is going to lead to better on court/on ice performance because most of the time you are using a single leg AND the more upright poster takes the lower back out of it (which is often the weak point for an athlete).
I tend to agree - and believe that lunges (with lower weights because they are tricky) and the split squat (which can be loaded with a barbell) are probably alot more useful for the tennis player..There is actually a huge rift out there in the sports training world..We have 'traditionalists' that argue for the big barbell lifts (deadlifts, back squats, barbell row, barbell bench press, and the overhead press) as really the weight training an athlete needs..
And the 'new school' guys that argue for things like single leg training because the movements more closely match what you do on the court. The problem for the traditional folks of course is that once you start arguing that the squat is more 'functional' then say a leg press.. Well isn't a split squat more functional then that? If a bench press is more functional then a chest machine - isn't a dumbell press more functional? And so on..
What I have noticed is that instead of doing a few core lifts (like a Rippetoe would have) lots of sports performance coaches are doing a rather incredible array of different exercises. I think people are attracted to the simplicity and ego involved in something like starting strength.. But its hard to argue with a guy like Boyle's logic, IMHO. But this is totally off topic - no one really likes the leg press for sports performance outside of bike guys. (which makes alot of sense if you think about the motion of riding a bike).
The people who like the leg press a whole lot are body builders.
Another split squat video for the folks who don't want to read the t-nation article:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7D44aAPKk&feature=related
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
^^ Split squats are good. "Pistols" are another good choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8nvzuOImvw&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Personally, I wouldn't do just one (traditional squats or "functional exercises") and skip the other. I'd do both.
For example, you should do both pullups and rows. Both military presses and handstand pushups. Both bench presses and various forms of pushups. Both squats and deadlifts for "the core" and things like L-seats or front levers, etc.
Add in a few plyometric exercises and some good "cardio" and you should have your bases covered.
Do a small number of exercises each day. Don't train for much over an hour to 1.5 hours (this includes your cardio). Be consistent. Eat sensibly. Rest sensibly. Save enough energy to play your sport(s). Have fun. Keep progressing.
And don't strive for a "beach body". It's probably not going to happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8nvzuOImvw&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Personally, I wouldn't do just one (traditional squats or "functional exercises") and skip the other. I'd do both.
For example, you should do both pullups and rows. Both military presses and handstand pushups. Both bench presses and various forms of pushups. Both squats and deadlifts for "the core" and things like L-seats or front levers, etc.
Add in a few plyometric exercises and some good "cardio" and you should have your bases covered.
Do a small number of exercises each day. Don't train for much over an hour to 1.5 hours (this includes your cardio). Be consistent. Eat sensibly. Rest sensibly. Save enough energy to play your sport(s). Have fun. Keep progressing.
And don't strive for a "beach body". It's probably not going to happen.
You need to define functional. I've always understood it as applying to day to day activities, or applying to EVERYTHING. Split squats are sport specific and beneficial for tennis and certain sports, but that does not make them "functional"
You know how every day you sit on a toilet? Thats a squat, pretty functional exercise i'd say. Not only that, it contributes to overall strength development which carries over into any sport (except maybe swimming?)
The benefit of the squat is that it is not just a leg movement. Quads, hamstrings, glutes, hips and adductors all actively move the weight. Upper back, lower back, and abs contract isometrically to stabilize the weight.
The best way to add mass to your legs? Add mass EVERYWHERE (hence r's getting fat comment), and the best exercise to do that is the squat, followed by deadlift
EDIT: that is not to say one should not do unilateral exercises, just not do them exclusively
You know how every day you sit on a toilet? Thats a squat, pretty functional exercise i'd say. Not only that, it contributes to overall strength development which carries over into any sport (except maybe swimming?)
The benefit of the squat is that it is not just a leg movement. Quads, hamstrings, glutes, hips and adductors all actively move the weight. Upper back, lower back, and abs contract isometrically to stabilize the weight.
The best way to add mass to your legs? Add mass EVERYWHERE (hence r's getting fat comment), and the best exercise to do that is the squat, followed by deadlift
EDIT: that is not to say one should not do unilateral exercises, just not do them exclusively
crosscourt
Professional
r2473 -- most of the upper body exercises you suggest seem to involve some/considerable stress on the shoulders. What exercises for the upper body do not stress the shoulders?
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
^^ Most "non-isolation" upper body exercises will probably involve the shoulders in some way or another.
To stress the shoulders less, just be creative. Say you want to try handstand pushups but aren't quite trained to level that make these possible. One thing you can do is change the angle so you are more horizontal (less vertical). You can also just hold a handstand with your feet agaisnt the wall (which will probably "burn" your shoulders, but shouldn't "stress" them). You can do the negative movement only.
If pullups strss your shoulders too much, try negative pullups. You can also use bands to make the exercise easier. Some gyms have those pullup / dip stations where you rest your knees on a platform and adjust the "helping weight" as needed to complete the movement.
And so on. Just be creative. Start out easy / slow and patiently progress toward tougher movements.
There are many isolation type exercies (for lats, back, chest, etc) that won't stress the shoulder much, but if you are trying to do compound movements, odds are the shoulder will be used.
To stress the shoulders less, just be creative. Say you want to try handstand pushups but aren't quite trained to level that make these possible. One thing you can do is change the angle so you are more horizontal (less vertical). You can also just hold a handstand with your feet agaisnt the wall (which will probably "burn" your shoulders, but shouldn't "stress" them). You can do the negative movement only.
If pullups strss your shoulders too much, try negative pullups. You can also use bands to make the exercise easier. Some gyms have those pullup / dip stations where you rest your knees on a platform and adjust the "helping weight" as needed to complete the movement.
And so on. Just be creative. Start out easy / slow and patiently progress toward tougher movements.
There are many isolation type exercies (for lats, back, chest, etc) that won't stress the shoulder much, but if you are trying to do compound movements, odds are the shoulder will be used.
Rhythm Man
Rookie
I think to avoid stressing the shoulders too much you need to be careful about the amount of exercises you do per session, get ample rest between sessions, focus on perfect form, and don't use too much weight! Be smart about it. Same thing with squats, if they stress your back generally either your form is bad, you are using too much weight or both.
You should start on a program to strengthen your rotator cuff and correct muscle imbalances if your shoulders are giving you trouble. You can find lots of advice on how to do this on the web. Shoulder flexibility can help too. I'd also recommend warming up your shoulders dynamically before doing any lifting.
Most guys have done too much pushing exercises (or have just gotten hunched over) and not done enough pulling exercises and now have an impingement.
If deadlifts and squats are messing up your shoulders you really have a medical problem that needs to be fixed, IMHO.
Most guys have done too much pushing exercises (or have just gotten hunched over) and not done enough pulling exercises and now have an impingement.
If deadlifts and squats are messing up your shoulders you really have a medical problem that needs to be fixed, IMHO.
Hmm I lunge more then a squat in everyday life. I deadlift a ton more then I squat too. Sure in some places people squat to use the bathroom but not in the US. It's barely used and that's why like I said most people don't do it correctly.
Anyway I was referring to functional strength for TENNIS - not every day life FWIW. Near as I can tell you don't hear about tennis pros doing huge squats.
That makes sense to me because its probably not really needed for tennis. Even Agassi's famous bench pressing didn't reallly seem to catch on - and that seemed to be more for ego..
And speaking of bad for shoulders - bench pressing without proper "powerlifting" style form will kill them. Much like squats most people don't bench correctly. Hell even Dwight Howard's bench sucks..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lek3aSbUsUM
These guys should fire their strength coach - I am not kidding.
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crosscourt
Professional
It isnt the deadlifts and squats that are doing my shoulders. Its things like bench presses and dumbell lifts.
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
There are "incorrect" ways to bench / squat / deadlift, etc, but I don't think there is a "correct" way.
Much will depend on the athlete's build (long limbs, barrell chest, etc) and what the athlete is trying to do.
For example, you can bench press without working the chest much at all (especially if you have long arms and narrow the grip a bit) and using mostly shoulders and triceps.
FWIW, using powerlifting style on the bench press can be dangerous too if you don't do it right and try to move too much weight. Personally, I think most people should not use this style.
Generally speaking, you will get a better workout if you are "man enough" to check your ego at the door. I'm not suggesting that you just move "easy" weights. But I see fairly often that people are more than willing to sacrifice form for more weight. This isn't always bad either. I'm not one of those guys that believe your form has to be "perfect". But it should be good enough so that you are still actually "doing" the exercise (if that makes sense).
Do you think Dwight Howard should be using a powerlifting style to bench press? Why? As a basketball player, why would that benefit him?
Pretend that you are Howards strength coach. Specifically, what would you recommend Howard should change and why?
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Howard's bench looks fine, his elbows arent flared out too far (they're about 45 degrees) so his shoulders arent in danger from bad form. Perhaps he could be doing better on upper back tightness and scapular retraction(protects the shoulder further) though
What they might be in danger from is imbalance. One of the main reasons bench press causes shoulder injuries is because its overused and not balanced with other exercises. Bench primarily works the frontal deltoid, giving little work to the medial and rear. Also a lack of upper back work contributes to this imbalance. This is what leads to shoulder issues, not doing anything other than powerlifting form. One should be doing as much horizontal/vertical pulling as they are pushing (i.e. barbell row and bench press, or pull/chin ups and OHP)
Bench press with elbows flared out like crazy (i.e. perpendicular to the torso or guillotine style) will destroy the shoulders however.
Odd that you lunge more every day, i certainly squat more often. Then again I have pretty much stopped tennis in favor of weightlifting, so maybe im just more comfortable with it
@Crosscourt Something like Overhead Press will be more balanced and healthy for the shoulders than bench press. Ideally, you'd do both, but if you absolutely had to pick one then i'd pick the OHP. Also, any upper back and rear deltoid work will keep things in balance. For that there's things like band pull aparts. There's also rhomboid exercises for the upper back which are greatly beneficial (said band pull aparts done correctly will also work these). Take look at this article as well http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/reawaken_your_rhomboids
What they might be in danger from is imbalance. One of the main reasons bench press causes shoulder injuries is because its overused and not balanced with other exercises. Bench primarily works the frontal deltoid, giving little work to the medial and rear. Also a lack of upper back work contributes to this imbalance. This is what leads to shoulder issues, not doing anything other than powerlifting form. One should be doing as much horizontal/vertical pulling as they are pushing (i.e. barbell row and bench press, or pull/chin ups and OHP)
Bench press with elbows flared out like crazy (i.e. perpendicular to the torso or guillotine style) will destroy the shoulders however.
Odd that you lunge more every day, i certainly squat more often. Then again I have pretty much stopped tennis in favor of weightlifting, so maybe im just more comfortable with it
@Crosscourt Something like Overhead Press will be more balanced and healthy for the shoulders than bench press. Ideally, you'd do both, but if you absolutely had to pick one then i'd pick the OHP. Also, any upper back and rear deltoid work will keep things in balance. For that there's things like band pull aparts. There's also rhomboid exercises for the upper back which are greatly beneficial (said band pull aparts done correctly will also work these). Take look at this article as well http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/reawaken_your_rhomboids
Absolutely.
Well I am not a strength coach but Dwight makes some classic mistakes that will lead to shoulder problems. The big thing is that you don't really to go past 90 degrees.
But you have to do this for your bench to 'count' in powerlifting. So the way powerlifters solve this problem is by arching their back and bringing the bar down closer to their midline.
This shortens your ROM and protects your shoulders. There is a whole lot more to it that then that. The other option that some trainers use is that they will just have you stop at 90 degrees (often well short of the chest).
But because the bench press is so ego involved this doesn't really work. Guys will want to go down all the way to count the rep. So by learning proper form you can protect your shoulders.
So yes you really can bench 'wrong' and Dwight is doing it. Over time he is going to screw up his shoulders. As I pointed out in this thread - I am not huge fan of powerlifting for recreational athletes.
But they know how to perform the lifts safely and efficently so as to prevent massive damage to their body. They have learned this the hard way because they are moving massive amounts of weight.
Putting your legs up on the bench and benching flat backed with a t form and going all the way down screws up your shoulders and is getting benches removed from regular gyms.
Here is a a pretty straightforward tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcjOIZc80c
One way is to do bench presses while laying on the ground, that prevents you from going past 90 degrees.
You're joking right? First off, the majority of the population do NOT touch their chest or torso. Why? Because its harder and god knows if its hard we shouldnt do it.
Secondly, perhaps you can explain how touching your body with the bar on a bench press is damaging to the shoulder? By this same logic, i suppose we should only row partially, or do partial pull/chin ups? And in OHP we should not bring the bar all the way down either of course.
Unless you're benching with your arms perpendicular to your body (so you look like a T from the top) touching your body is not what will damage your shoulders. The statement that full ROM reps are damaging is pretty Broscience
Powerlifters make an effort to shorten their ROM not to specifically protect their shoulders, they do it so they can move more weight (Less ROM = more weight usable)
Also citing trainers as a source of correct technique is not enough. There are hundreds of certifications that anyone can get and most dont mean ****. I can tell you the National Strength and Conditioning Association (through which a CSCS cert is obtained) say you touch the body.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Again, I wouldn't say there is one right way to bench. But I agree that there are a lot of wrong ways.
I like to bench with my feet up sometimes, but I naturally lower the weight I'm moving quite a lot. It just changes the leverage and is a totally different movement from the powerlifting style. But yes, if you try that tecnique with the same weight as you can do powerlifter style, you'll kill yourself.
EDIT: The thing to remember in that Dwight Howard video is that the weight he is using is very easy for him, so he really isn't in any danger IMO. But, if he was using the same technique and going for a 1 rep max, I agree that he would be in a very disadvantaged leverage position with his shoulders / place too much stress on his shoulders.
But then again, think of how much stress gymnasts place on their shoulders when they do something like an iron cross. It's OK to do this stuff. You just have to train slowly up to these levels. In this way benching "wrong" could be great for some people (if your aim was to build shoulder strenght so as to handle some challenging positions). Of course, your average gym rat isn't trying to do this (even though some do unintenionally and end up hurting themselves).
I'm working on nailing slow, controlled muscle-ups on rings. Very dangerous for the shoulders, so I look for ways to train myself to handle these disadvantaged leverage positions. To take baby steps so I don't hurt myself.
Anyway, most gym rats don't move the kind of weight that they really need to be too concerned about any of this. Pain is also a great teacher. If you start moving big weight with bad leverage, you'll know soon enough.
I like to bench with my feet up sometimes, but I naturally lower the weight I'm moving quite a lot. It just changes the leverage and is a totally different movement from the powerlifting style. But yes, if you try that tecnique with the same weight as you can do powerlifter style, you'll kill yourself.
EDIT: The thing to remember in that Dwight Howard video is that the weight he is using is very easy for him, so he really isn't in any danger IMO. But, if he was using the same technique and going for a 1 rep max, I agree that he would be in a very disadvantaged leverage position with his shoulders / place too much stress on his shoulders.
But then again, think of how much stress gymnasts place on their shoulders when they do something like an iron cross. It's OK to do this stuff. You just have to train slowly up to these levels. In this way benching "wrong" could be great for some people (if your aim was to build shoulder strenght so as to handle some challenging positions). Of course, your average gym rat isn't trying to do this (even though some do unintenionally and end up hurting themselves).
I'm working on nailing slow, controlled muscle-ups on rings. Very dangerous for the shoulders, so I look for ways to train myself to handle these disadvantaged leverage positions. To take baby steps so I don't hurt myself.
Anyway, most gym rats don't move the kind of weight that they really need to be too concerned about any of this. Pain is also a great teacher. If you start moving big weight with bad leverage, you'll know soon enough.
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In a nutshell - the ligaments in the back of the shoulder are tight - so if you lower the bar down to your chest the ball in you socket joint will move back and up instead of functioning properly. You can also tear your rotator cuff.. There are limits to shoulder flexibility. Just stand up and make a T with your arms - how far can you pull your elbows back. There is a limit and for some people limit comes before the bar touches your chest. So that when you do bench presses you screw up your shoulder. This is why some trainers tell their clients to stop at 90. And this is why some will have people bench of the floor. It's not bro science - its simple anatomy.
And sure powerlifters try to shorten their range of motion so they can lift more weight - but it also protects their shoulder. That's why the can safely lift such massive weight in the first place.
The guys at Westside would disagree. I could show you video but clearly you are in "know it all mode" I won't bother. The limited and specific range of motion both protects their shoulders and enables them to lift massive weight. If your shoulders are shredded you won't be benching..
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onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I think the better guideline is to not let the weight push your shoulder beyond
it's normal range of motion. This may or may not mean limiting your bench's
range of motion from going down to your chest. One danger of not
going down, is that if you are using a heavy weight and getting fatigued
AND w/o a spotter, you may get stuck and then it'll go down further than
you had planned.
btw, do you think this is bad for your shoulder?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaYHWNM0jOM&feature=related
it's normal range of motion. This may or may not mean limiting your bench's
range of motion from going down to your chest. One danger of not
going down, is that if you are using a heavy weight and getting fatigued
AND w/o a spotter, you may get stuck and then it'll go down further than
you had planned.
btw, do you think this is bad for your shoulder?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaYHWNM0jOM&feature=related
Yes if you make a T with you arms you can only go so far, that is what i was describing when I said perpendicular to the body, the video of Dwight Howard has his elbows at about 45 degrees, which although is less safe than powerlifting style, is not nearly as dangerous as you are making it out to be. The leverage will allow for less weight safely, but it also is a more balanced position for overall development (narrower elbows takes the emphasis off the pecs)
But then again, i suppose every person that reads and follows Starting Strength has destroyed their shoulders as well.
As R said, few regular gym goers are in a position of strength to where they have to bench in such a way to protect their shoulders or move the weight
I will agree that the guys at westside do what they do in order to lift the most weight possible safely. However, i would like to see this video as i was under the impression that the narrowed elbow position is what protects the shoulder specifically, not the excessive arch which appears to be purely for shortened range of motion as the upper back tightness and scapular retraction can be achieved with a only a slight arch
EDIT: I might see something that isnt clear. I am not advocating that one should touch specifically their chest when benching, I am saying it should touch their body. The motion should also be in a straight line, which upon reviewing Howard's video again i see that this is not the case, so I apologize for defending his form on at least that point and his elbows are more flared than I thought casually observing it the first time. However, I still maintain that a 45 degree elbow position and bringing the bar down and up in a straight line is fine (this should touch closer to the sternum depending on individual anthropometry)
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I don't think we disagree all that much - no you don't need a competition level arch in your back but the basics help if you want to touch the bar against your body and not stress your shoulders.
I think these guys explain it alot better then me:
Westside guy who claims that people bench wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP3g-I9Sf9s&feature=related
A less angry tutorial:
http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/features/so-you-think-you-can-bench-get-the-whole-series-here/
And IMHO this is some of the better free advice you can get on the net period. I wish some of the trainers in my gym watched this stuff...
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Dave Tate is always amusing to watch and with his injury history its no wonder he's figured this out (or was taught it eventually)
So yes, if one is afraid of shoulder injury or they hurt doing typical bench press, they should certainly go this route. The only issue I have with this is that it seems to me more conducive to putting more weight up than it is strength development (usually but not always the same thing)
Regardless of elbow positioning, scapula retracted (shoulder blades together) and feet driving from the ground will make for a happier life
So yes, if one is afraid of shoulder injury or they hurt doing typical bench press, they should certainly go this route. The only issue I have with this is that it seems to me more conducive to putting more weight up than it is strength development (usually but not always the same thing)
Regardless of elbow positioning, scapula retracted (shoulder blades together) and feet driving from the ground will make for a happier life
Texas Scrambler
Rookie
Wow lots of different thoughts
I am the original poster and have read all comments and thanks. A special thanks to Cindy from where I started doing one legged squats. Tough as h*ll but slowly building leg strength and balance strength. BTW I only go to 90 degress, doc orders.
I would love to do proper squats but cannot. I do practice with light weight each time in the gym hoping to become sufficiently limber to do free squats some time in the future.
In the interim I do the inclined leg press one leg at a time. Then squats with a bar on a vertical track, then one legged squats. I also do the hamstring exercise like Cindy does with Kettle bells except I use free weights. I also do the hamstring laying down machine exercise.
Individual leg exercises work well for me with one leg always trying to take time off. I am interested in doing a different version of squats for the less flexible.
I am biking more now that it is warm and a great cross train. I also found the ability to put on significant muscle mass without PEDs is pretty darn hard evidenced by comments and the video.
I am in to ideas for leg strength for greater knee stability. How about sprinting? This doesn't seem to hurt the knee. I am guessing it is pretty good at building muscle also.
I am also trying to right size a diet and eat more protein during the day and less cr*p food.
I am the original poster and have read all comments and thanks. A special thanks to Cindy from where I started doing one legged squats. Tough as h*ll but slowly building leg strength and balance strength. BTW I only go to 90 degress, doc orders.
I would love to do proper squats but cannot. I do practice with light weight each time in the gym hoping to become sufficiently limber to do free squats some time in the future.
In the interim I do the inclined leg press one leg at a time. Then squats with a bar on a vertical track, then one legged squats. I also do the hamstring exercise like Cindy does with Kettle bells except I use free weights. I also do the hamstring laying down machine exercise.
Individual leg exercises work well for me with one leg always trying to take time off. I am interested in doing a different version of squats for the less flexible.
I am biking more now that it is warm and a great cross train. I also found the ability to put on significant muscle mass without PEDs is pretty darn hard evidenced by comments and the video.
I am in to ideas for leg strength for greater knee stability. How about sprinting? This doesn't seem to hurt the knee. I am guessing it is pretty good at building muscle also.
I am also trying to right size a diet and eat more protein during the day and less cr*p food.
