New (4-28-11) TWU: Physics of the Kick Serve

[jmjmkim]

When I was younger, I would have read and reread this kind of piece to see what I was missing and also to improve what I have . . . Boy I don't think I can go back to college and get another degree. I can not keep my focus . . .
It would be a lot easier getting a lesson and have someone professional watch me and show me how to do it. Now a days, I don't have to understand everything that I do . . .

 

[Devilito]

I don't know, all of Roger's serves have swingpaths that look similar to that of a 2nd serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIjfJrfIWnI&playnext=1&list=PL0BBF1D1390C69B45

he's just tossing the ball anywhere and warming up his shoulder there. It's probably like the first few serves he's hit that day. I don't know why anyone would slow-mo and analyze that when that is clearly just an arm warm-up and not his serve.

 

[onehandbh]

First of all the article is a study of a true high level kick serve, not a topspin
lob serve some posters are mistakenly equating to a true kick serve.

I wonder if my 2nd serve is actually more of a high speed lob serve...

 

[LeeD]

Love it, someone amongst us is rating "a TRUE kick serve"........
what exactly is a "false" kick serve?

 

[Roy125]

Love it, someone amongst us is rating "a TRUE kick serve"........
what exactly is a "false" kick serve?

it's one where you hit down on the ball.:shock:

 

[35ft6]

Needs to be 100mph? No way. Some of Ljubicic's most ridiculous kick serves must have been in the high 80's or low 90's, and personally, the guys I've faced with the biggest kick serves, which hasn't happened since college, were serving well below 90mph.

 

[Lsmkenpo]

Love it, someone amongst us is rating "a TRUE kick serve"........
what exactly is a "false" kick serve?

I clearly defined the difference in my earlier post, sorry, if you don't understand, I don't think it needs any further elaboration.

 

[LeeD]

Thank you, Mr. "I am GOD, you know nothing and are nothing" .....

 

[TW Professor]

Rod Cross has added some extra material to the bottom of his kick serve article ("The Physics of the Tennis Kick Serve") describing the "lob kick serve" (i.e., slow, launched upward) and a demonstration of how the toss creates spin. Scroll to the end of the article to the "Answers to Questions" section:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

 

[Limpinhitter]

Rod Cross has contributed a new article to TWU: "The Physics of the Tennis Kick Serve." How is the topspin created? The answer is not obvious, and you might find the mechanisms and the amount of their individual contributions to the spin to be surprising. Check it out:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

(Note: I posted this in the Racquets Forum also because that is where people tend to talk about physics. But it is technique oriented also.)

I just hit up on the ball!

 

[Kevo]

But you can see it all very clearly now in the clips. So now you can do it yourself? Or not?

Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I think there is a lot of practice involved in getting the super kicker to happen repeatably and reliably. I haven't had a chance to hit a bucket of serves in many months, so I only go for the big kicker when I'm ahead. Even then I only get it about 50% of the time. It's definitely harder to control the angle when you really swing out on a big second serve. I am getting about as many aces with my second serve now as my first, which has lately been about 3 or 4 per match. I think if I ever get that percentage up to 65% or better, I'd start using it for my first serve most of the time as well, and then use the flat serve as a change of pace along with the slow ball.

As far as real kickers versus fake kickers, I get a lot of free points with the so called fake kickers. If you use it wisely it really screws with people's timing. I think any good pitcher knows when to throw the knuckle ball, and it's a good tool for servers too.

 

[bhupaes]

But you can see it all very clearly now in the clips. So now you can do it yourself? Or not?

Good question, nabrug. Trying to copy the exact motion, and following through with some of the previous discussions here has left me with some strange conclusions. To summarize, the answer to your question has to be "No". Just copying all the motions won't make the cut, if you ask me.

Following through with some of the earlier discussions with sennoc regarding the kinetic chain and energy transfer, I began to see the similarities (and some differences, of course) between strokes, for example, the forehand and serve. It all boils down to having the best transfer of energy possible to the last link, the wrist/hand complex, to which the racquet is attached. As in the forehand, I realized the wrist in the serve has to be extended back, and the hitting arm has to be set up optimally in preparation for the "final blow", as it were. What I noticed was that if I set this up correctly, the rest of the body did exactly the right things! Granted I have been playing for a while, and some movements have been grooved already, but I have to say that setting up the arm/wrist correctly and then extending upwards into the ball is the catalyst that causes the rest of the movements (the hip arch, knee bend, delayed drop/loading of arm, etc) to happen in the right sequence and proper fashion. Of course, superimposed on this is one's intention to hit a particular type of serve, such as slice or kick or flat.

The bottom line is, everyone is going to have a different amount of hip arch, knee bend, elbow height, and so on - so the question I am now grappling with is, should we even think about these or just concentrate on setting up the hitting arm correctly with a particular intention in mind? Of course, the other links do play a significant role, but rather than dwell on them, would it be better just to train them independently with appropriate workouts and just accept that an intermediate to advanced player is just never going to be as good as a pro?