Old Drobny - best Czech player of all time?

[urban]

In discussion with Carlo, Jeffrey and others i always believed, that some amateurs of the pre open eras were quite as good as their pro counterparts. One of these exclusive amateur careers belongs to Jaroslav Drobny. He was a young boy of 16 or 17, when he played Don Budge at Prague in 1938 (and won a set i think). Immediately after the war, he got into the amateur top ten, and at the same time, was a world class ice hockey player either. Excelling on clay, the lefthander won tons of tournaments on the French Riviera or the North African tour. All in all, he won 133 tournaments, high on the list of most tournaments won in a career. Not surprisingly he won RG twice (and lost several finals) and 4 Rome finals. But also at Wimbledon, he did well, beating the unbeatable Kramer (who had blisters) over 5 sets in 1946. He lost two finals to Schroeder and Sedgman, before ultimately winning the elusive title on his last legs in 1954 against young Rosewall. Old Drob was the nemesis of the Australian Hopman Boys, having numerous wins over Hoad and Rosewall, and even beating the slowly upcoming Laver in 1958 on his Centre Court debut.
Drob was famous for his lob and drop-shot tactics, letting run his opponent in circles, as described by Gordon Forbes. He had not much of a backhand, but a great forehand and a very difficult to read slice serve. Always a bit overweight and with big spectacles, he didn't look very impressive, but was a shrewd tactician, and a specialist for long matches. Against Patty, he had in 1953 the longest Wimbledon match before Gonzales-Pasarell, and at Lyon had an even longer match, that both friendly rivals ended with a draw.
Drobny's career was also politically significant, because in 1949 he flew from the Communist Czechoslovakia, got an exile pass from King Faruk of Egypt, and later settled in England. Long before Martina Nav, in the middle of the real Cold War, he took the risk of defecting his communist country. But unlike Martina, he never returned. I know, there is a great line of Czech players from Kozeluh and Menzel to Kodes and to Lendl and to Mecir or Korda. Certainly Lendl is the most prominent, but Drobny is in my view the 'forgotten man'.
Maybe some other readers here know something more about Old Drob.

 

[BTURNER]

You know of any video of Drobny at work?

 

[crabgrass]

seems like a handy player but to call him the greatest czech player of all time is a stretch...to even ask this question seems like an insult to lendl.
how does drobny stack up against a guy who won 8 slams and made a record 19 slam finals and was no.1 for 270 weeks, i realise there were no atp rankings in drobnys day but was he ever considered to be the best player in the world at any time in his career.
lendls achievements massively outweigh anything drobny did and he did it in a more competitive era.

 

[theagassiman]

seems like a handy player but to call him the greatest czech player of all time is a stretch...to even ask this question seems like an insult to lendl.
how does drobny stack up against a guy who won 8 slams and made a record 19 slam finals and was no.1 for 270 weeks, i realise there were no atp rankings in drobnys day but was he ever considered to be the best player in the world at any time in his career.
lendls achievements massively outweigh anything drobny did and he did it in a more competitive era.

Agree with crabgrass. Lendl may have not been likeable, but he was definitely the greatest czech player of all time, definitely better than Drobny.

 

[urban]

OK, the title is a bit provocative and should generate some interest in the person. But on a second look, Drobny is closer to Lendl than many think. On overall wins, they are pretty close. Regarding majors, Drobny had only clay and grass to excel. On clay, he is quite on par with Lendl, having won one less RG but far more Romas. On grass, his record is superior to Lendl's, with a Wim win plus two finals. And winning Wim after beating Hoad, Patty and Rosewall in succession is imo a harder task, than anything Lendl did on grass (except his 1990 Queens win, which however was a lesser event). The only thing Lendl has got over Drobny is the Nr. 1 position. Drobny was neither the undisputed Nr. 1 amateur for a while, nor the overall Nr.1. He avoided the rigors of the pro circuit, which was quite hard, and not that lucrative in those years.

 

[hoodjem]

Not Lendl? Not Navratilova?

Yes, provocative.

Of course, "winning Wimbledon after beating Hoad, Patty and Rosewall in succession" is rather impressive.

Drob was also a silver medalist with the Czechoslovakian ice hockey team in the 1948 Olympics.

 

[pc1]

Drobny won a tremendous amount of tournaments, according to the latest Vanqueurs he won about 132 but I wouldn't be surprised if they found far more. However Lendl has won according to some accounts over 140 tournaments and he did it in probably tougher competition than old Drob.

Drob was known to have some backhand weaknesses but how bad could it have been if he won so many tournaments?

This is an excellent topic. Drobny is a player that should be remembered and perhaps he could be the best grass court Czech player ever.

I would think it still clearly is Lendl but Drobny is probably number two.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Immediately after the war, he got into the amateur top ten, and at the same time, was a world class ice hockey player either.

Apparently Drobny has a silver medal from being part of the Czechoslovakian hockey team at the 1948 Olympics.

Taking that into account, he may have a case as being the best athlete to ever win Wimbledon.

 

[Carlo Giovanni Colussi]

to pc1 and urban

pc1,
Drobny has won at least 136 tournaments :
see http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_divers_depuis_les_débuts_du_tennis, in the French site of Wikipedia. In general the English version of that article, "Tennis male players statistics", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_male_players_statistics, isn't as much updated, for instance if you click on "Jaroslav Drobny"'s link in the French version (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Drobny) you will see the complete list of Drobny's wins and finals whereas in the English version of the Drobny's article you have no list.
urban,
Drobny won 2 sets from Budge in July 1938.
In his autobiography Drobny said that Kramer proposed him to turn pro in late 1953 but Drobny refused because the pro circuit of course wasn't as wealthy as now (to say the least) and Jaroslav thought the he would probably haved ended at the last place in a 4-man tour against the two Panchos and Sedgman, one of the reasons, besides the quality of the opposition, was the poor lightning of indoor courts where he would have had many difficulties to correctly watch the ball (he wore glasses). His best year was 1952, his best tennis was early 1953, the Italian being his summit (and we can add his 1954 Wimbledon tournament). And possibly if the seeded players have been well ordered he could have won Wimby 1953 (among the amateurs Trabert was absent). On indoor wood he was possibly the best amateur after Patty in the early 1950's.

I'm not sure of the year but I think that Hoad beat Drobny for the first time only in 1956 and Drob' beat Hoad even in 1957 if my memory is good.
Drobny and Rosewall only met twice (Rome 1953, Wimby 1954), the Czech always the winner. But knowing that Rosewall's amateur career was from 1949 to 1956 you can note that in 8 years both players only faced twice.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

I'm just going to bump this old thread for my favourite player from my favourite decade, since today is the 75th anniversary of Drobny and his team-mates winning their silver medals in ice-hockey at the Winter Olympics.

I actually found footage from the 1948 Games on Youtube. You briefly see Jarda during the opening ceremony at 14'40", and again at the beginning of the Ice Hockey coverage at 30'20" (he's wearing #14 during the CZ vs USA match). I've got to say, they look like they hit as hard as modern players even though they wore a lot less padding. And the goalies wore flat caps instead of face masks!

Jarda was also in the 1947 World Championship-winning squad, scoring 15 goals in eight games that year. He ended up in the IIHF Hall of Fame as well as the Tennis Hall of Fame, and I've so far been unable to uncover another athlete who's emulated that feat, i.e. was inducted to a top level HoF as a competitor in two different sports (Cal Hubbard's post-football career as a MLB umpire doesn't count in my book).

Ultimately though, I concur with the others, and Jeff Sackmann. He ranks the best Czechs on Tennis 128 as Navratilova, Lendl, Hingis, and then Drobny (at #44 all-time, and #22 among men). For all the flaws that list has, those four seem correct relative to each other. The other Czechs who made the list are Mandlikova, Novotna, Kvitova, and Kozeluh, and I'd put him ahead of all those players.

 

[urban]

Oh no, this thread is 14 years old. Is coming back like old ghosts of the past. I have long forgotten, why i asked this provocative question. Of course, Lendl is to place higher. Maybe i intended to bring the spotlight to a long forgotten champion. Many amateurs of this era are forgotten, although they were great characters, like Tappy Larsen, Herbie Flam, Nikki Pietrangeli, Freddie Huber, John Bromwich. I remember an old member of the Rochus Club, who always marvelled about the clay court artwork of Luis Ayala.
Besides: Now Drobny is credited with around 150 titles overall, if i read it right.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

As long as Drobny gets his due credit, I think a provocative question can be tolerated.

And his life history is so extraordinary. To carve out such success when he was literally living out of a suitcase on the amateur tour? He wrote in his autobiography: "Often I was very hard up and unhappy. Occasionally I would have a quiet cry because of the utter loneliness I suffered as a stateless person." Six of his former ice-hockey team-mates were killed in an airplane accident in 1948. Twelve more were jailed in 1950 for allegedly plotting to follow his example and defect. His father suffered a fatal accident in 1951 while riding a motorcycle that Jarda had bought for him. Thanks to his exile and the communists in power, he couldn't return for the funeral, or even communicate with his now-widowed mother.

He spent the remainder of his life in England, living in the rather grandiose surroundings of the Lake House in Dormans Park, Sussex. Did he enjoy the life he'd worked for, or was there any residual guilt for all the friends and colleagues who were denied the same good fortune?


Here's Pathé News footage of his win at SW19. By this time he'd married an Englishwoman and was living in the country, so the home crowd was soundly behind him. Listen to the roar when he wins -- not what you expect from a genteel Wimbledon audience in 1954.

Now here he is at the Wimbledon Champions' Parade in 2000, just a year before his death. (timestamped at 23'33"). Mere polite applause for the old man with the walking stick, from an audience too young to recognize him -- although there is a cutaway to Martina Navratilova, who herself went through much of the same turmoils he suffered. She's watching him intently.

I don't know why I love Drobny so much. Something to do with being my mother's favourite when she was a teenager? Or maybe because he represents the captivating contexts of that post-war era better than any other player to me? Or maybe I'm just old and grumpy because the tennis from seven decades ago interests me more than the stuff being played today...

 

[Frankc]

Oh My... Wimbledon Parade - thank you for posting.
Just a gem...

 

[stringertom]

It’s a shame Drobny was just a bit too old to participate in a skills challenge on ice with another Wimby champion who swung a fearsome hockey stick as a youth. Who would have won: Borg or Jaroslav???

 

[Cashman]

Apparently Drobny has a silver medal from being part of the Czechoslovakian hockey team at the 1948 Olympics.

Taking that into account, he may have a case as being the best athlete to ever win Wimbledon.

I think Lottie Dod probably pips him

5x Wimbledon singles champ
British Open amateur golf champ
Olympic archery silver medallist
Represented England in field hockey

 

[urban]

On a funny note, i would like to have seen this draw between Drobny and Patty at Lyon. Remember, there is no draw in tennis. Its a veritable result in football, in chess most matches end with a remis. Even in skiing or swimming there were some ex aequo decisions at Olympics. But in tennis? I remember vaguely, that at Rotterdam a final Lendl-Vilas was suspended because of a bomb alert. And a Monte Carlo match Vilas-Connors wasn't played at all. But a draw?
I must be a bit of a Monty Python scene. Who called that draw? The umpire, the linesmen or ballboys, who all must be dead tired after hours of serve and volley tennis, indoors on a fast court with no tiebreaks in all sets? The public who hadn't fallen asleep? The house manager, who wanted to close doors, or the police or security, who wanted an end after hours of play? Probably it where the players themselves, who called it day. But imagine, if Djokovic and Nadal had agreed on a draw in their long exhausting AO final. What would have Tiley said?

 

[urban]

Just found a description from 2015. The match was indoors at Lyon in 1955 in front of 2000 people. It ended at 21-21 in the third set with a handshake of both players:

www.wearetennis.bnpparibas/en/news-tennis/news-results/2791-the-story-of-the-match-that-never-ended

 

[thrust]

seems like a handy player but to call him the greatest czech player of all time is a stretch...to even ask this question seems like an insult to lendl.
how does drobny stack up against a guy who won 8 slams and made a record 19 slam finals and was no.1 for 270 weeks, i realise there were no atp rankings in drobnys day but was he ever considered to be the best player in the world at any time in his career.
lendls achievements massively outweigh anything drobny did and he did it in a more competitive era.

Drobny's era was also very tough. Also, I think it was tougher in Drobny's day to defy a communist state. He actually lived and represented Egypt for a while. Also, I doubt Drobny had the coaching advantages Lendl and Martina had as a very young player. Any man who could be a great player in two major sports is very special, IMO. Had he had good coaching in concentrated only on tennis, he probably would have been an even greater tennis player than he was?

 

[hoodjem]

But in tennis? I remember vaguely, that at Rotterdam a final Lendl-Vilas was suspended because of a bomb alert. And a Monte Carlo match Vilas-Connors wasn't played at all. But a draw?

I looked up the Rotterdam Open. It stated that in the 1984 final between Lendl and Connors, there was no winner. It was "abandoned" with the score 6-1, 1-0.

(In the 1981 Monte Carlo final, there was no winner between Vilas and Connors. It was called off in the first set due to rain, with the score 5-5.)

 

[timnz]

Do people think that Drobny was the best amateur clay courter ever. He won around 93 clay court tournaments

 

[urban]

He won a lot of clay events, probably second behind Tilden, but most on the lighter tours in South Europe and North Africa, especially Egypt, where under King Faruk many tennis tournaments were staged (i think Nasser reduced this). At the big clay events, he won some (2 RG, 3 Rome), but lost some finals, too. At RG, he was 2-3 in finals. For some time in his career, he had a bit that bridesmaid-label, that he would be extremely dangerous in early rounds, but showed nerves in finals. Its tough to pick a clear clay favorite among those amateur greats like Wilding, Cochet, von Cramm, Pietrangeli and Santana, and later pros like Trabert, Rosewall and Laver did also well on clay as amateurs.

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

Do people think that Drobny was the best amateur clay courter ever. He won around 93 clay court tournaments

I don't think he was the best, but certainly he can stake a claim to being as skilled as Wilding, Tilden, Cochet, and Lacoste, even if those players all exceed him in major accomplishments.

As @urban mentioned, he didn't always play in the strongest events. No shame in that when you're living out of a suitcase and need to play if you want a roof over your head. Still, two French championships and three finals from '46 to '52 (with a 30-3 record in five attempts, since he was absent in '47 & '49), and three wins in Rome shows he definitely had the pedigree. Jeff Sackmann's 'Tennis 128' list has him well ahead of the two Frenchman, and post-war champs like Frank Parker, Tony Trabert, Nicola Pietrangeli, and Manolo Santana as well. (I'm not sure I agree with him being so high on that list, but I do confess it pleases me.)

Another mitigating factor to point out is WW2. While it affected all players of a certain age, Americans at least had a National Championship which continued during '39 to '45, and kept them in good fettle when they were able to participate. I'd say players like Schroeder, Parker, and Patty, all of whom beat Drobny in a slam final in the late '40s, had an advantage over him in that regard. Jarda did struggle in major finals for a while, but without the war he could have overcome that at a younger age than he did — his maiden slam win in Paris in '51 was when he was 29 years old — and perhaps accumulated more major titles?

On a funny note, i would like to have seen this draw between Drobny and Patty at Lyon.

I had a look at Drobny's autobiography, but unfortunately it was published in 1955 and the prose ends with his Wimbledon win, so there's no retrospective on the match from Jarda's perspective. Though Patty's description of easy holds on a parquet floor makes it sound more than a little like a John Isner match.


~~~~~~~~~~


On an unrelated note, it's frequently mentioned that after his retirement Drobny ran a sports shop in Kensington. However, I recently discovered that in his British naturalization application in 1959 he was listed as the director of a delicatessen, and that he had his own line of sausages and salami.

Spoiler: Today, I uncovered this photo from 1957...

 

[timnz]

I don't think he was the best, but certainly he can stake a claim to being as skilled as Wilding, Tilden, Cochet, and Lacoste, even if those players all exceed him in major accomplishments.

As @urban mentioned, he didn't always play in the strongest events. No shame in that when you're living out of a suitcase and need to play if you want a roof over your head. Still, two French championships and three finals from '46 to '52 (with a 30-3 record in five attempts, since he was absent in '47 & '49), and three wins in Rome shows he definitely had the pedigree. Jeff Sackmann's 'Tennis 128' list has him well ahead of the two Frenchman, and post-war champs like Frank Parker, Tony Trabert, Nicola Pietrangeli, and Manolo Santana as well. (I'm not sure I agree with him being so high on that list, but I do confess it pleases me.)

Another mitigating factor to point out is WW2. While it affected all players of a certain age, Americans at least had a National Championship which continued during '39 to '45, and kept them in good fettle when they were able to participate. I'd say players like Schroeder, Parker, and Patty, all of whom beat Drobny in a slam final in the late '40s, had an advantage over him in that regard. Jarda did struggle in major finals for a while, but without the war he could have overcome that at a younger age than he did — his maiden slam win in Paris in '51 was when he was 29 years old — and perhaps accumulated more major titles?




I had a look at Drobny's autobiography, but unfortunately it was published in 1955 and the prose ends with his Wimbledon win, so there's no retrospective on the match from Jarda's perspective. Though Patty's description of easy holds on a parquet floor makes it sound more than a little like a John Isner match.


~~~~~~~~~~


On an unrelated note, it's frequently mentioned that after his retirement Drobny ran a sports shop in Kensington. However, I recently discovered that in his British naturalization application in 1959 he was listed as the director of a delicatessen, and that he had his own line of sausages and salami.

Spoiler: Today, I uncovered this photo from 1957...

Thanks for your insights here. i didn’t think necessarily he was the best amateur clay counter but I thought my comment would raise an interesting discussion. in terms of domination on clay courts by an amateur I am keen on the history of Wilding (possibly because I am a New Zealander) who hardly had a loss on clay for around 5 years and won all of the top tournaments on clay at the time multiple times. Having said that I don’t know much about Schroeder, Parker, and Patty, so bow to your knowledge about their histories . I do know that Tilden won the US clay court championships many times.