Opponent DQ'd

[Court Karma]

I'm not often gleeful, but dang I feel vindicated to learn that the person who absolutely shellacked me and my partner was DQ'd.

She self-rated at 4.0. Killed every opponent at 4.0. Played multiple 4.5 singles matches, going to 3rd set tie-breaks in all of them. I don't know what her captain was thinking...

It doesn't help my team in the standings but it knocks the DQ'd player's team out of first place. So HAH!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I'm not often gleeful, but dang I feel vindicated to learn that the person who absolutely shellacked me and my partner was DQ'd.

She self-rated at 4.0. Killed every opponent at 4.0. Played multiple 4.5 singles matches, going to 3rd set tie-breaks in all of them. I don't know what her captain was thinking...

It doesn't help my team in the standings but it knocks the DQ'd player's team out of first place. So HAH!

What goes around, comes around...

Somehow, "Court Schadenfreude" doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[gmatheis]

I'm not often gleeful, but dang I feel vindicated to learn that the person who absolutely shellacked me and my partner was DQ'd.

She self-rated at 4.0. Killed every opponent at 4.0. Played multiple 4.5 singles matches, going to 3rd set tie-breaks in all of them. I don't know what her captain was thinking...

It doesn't help my team in the standings but it knocks the DQ'd player's team out of first place. So HAH!

Sounds like she misrated, but played honestly and didn't sandbag at all.

 

[kevrol]

but it knocks the DQ'd player's team out of first place. So HAH!

Luckily you don't play in Southern.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

hehe, i've been on both sides
had a 5.0 playing in 4.5
and i appealed down to 4.0 decades ago
both scenarios resulted in DQs

 

[CosmosMpower]

There's a person like that in our USTA league, 3.5 rated killed everyone with mostly double bagels won a few 4.0 matches then their captain told him to sit and lose some games in 3.5. Their dynamic is still way over 3.5 but they are C rated so nothing they can do about it until end of year. UTR 7 in 3.5 singles...

 

[darkhorse]

Sounds like she misrated, but played honestly and didn't sandbag at all.

I mean, exactly this. Sometimes I really don't get tt posters, sandbagging is a mortal sin but when a situation like this happens it's met with similar disdain. The system worked, what more do you want?

 

[OnTheLine]

I think there are plenty of people who legitimately self-rate incorrectly. The questionnaire doesn't get everyone in the right bucket. Especially at the 4.0+ range, any player who did not play competitive juniors or college level tennis is going to get put in 4.0 instead of 4.5.

There are some of course who do it on purpose ... I have a few in mind locally.

All that said, it is nice to be soothed mentally/emotionally when a really bad loss is kinda erased by a DQ ... you still lost, but takes a little sting out.

 

[brettatk]

There is a guy around here that started playing this year for one of our rivals. He was a self rate back in December. He's playing 4.0 low and 4.0. He's smoking people 6-0 6-0, 6-1 6-0, etc. He's beaten at least one guy that was bumped to 4.5 but then appealed back down. He's got to be getting close to getting DQ'ed I'd think.

 

[Court Karma]

Over the last year this individual played competitive juniors at the 4.5/5.0 level.

In the match we played, the 4.5 was paired with a high level 4.0 who I lost to twice over the last two years, each time in 3rd set tie-breaks. Competitive tennis, but with the better team winning. Adult beverages and socializing afterward. That’s as it should be.

Having worked very hard over the last year to improve our games, my partner and I were really looking forward to playing this particular 4.0 again. We knew we had a shot at winning. We got one game. After the match, the 4.0 couldn’t even look at us and she immediately left.

Yes, I’m glad - relieved honestly - that the system worked but I’m disappointed in this young lady’s club pro, captain, and team mates, all of whom had to be aware she was not appropriately rated. When you stay silent you are complicit in hurting the integrity of our sport.

 

[OnTheLine]

Over the last year this individual played competitive juniors at the 4.5/5.0 level.

t.

Okay, that is cheating. If she is quite young and so recently played high level competitive juniors with no layoff, yeah, no way she is only a 4.0.

I was pleased with one of our pros ... one of my 3.5 teammates wanted to have her daughter join the team. Daughter is a college student and is not playing college tennis. BUT as a high school student won state doubles twice. The pro said no way. Don't care if she hasn't played in 3 years at all. She rates no lower than 4.0, preferably 4.5.

 

[J_R_B]

There's a person like that in our USTA league, 3.5 rated killed everyone with mostly double bagels won a few 4.0 matches then their captain told him to sit and lose some games in 3.5. Their dynamic is still way over 3.5 but they are C rated so nothing they can do about it until end of year. UTR 7 in 3.5 singles...

There's a guy here who was a recent college grad who played 4 years of NAIA tennis who self-rated at 5.0 and appealed to 4.5 (which is fine, he's actually a very solid 4.5 player, not a 5.0). He played the fall tri-level league and won every match, 7-0 and most in straight sets, on the 4.5 court, so he cearly didn't do anyting to "manipulate" his rating. Final YE rating? 4.0 C. Like, wtf? Schmke can explain the math of what happened there, but sometimes the math fails, and it did this time. Anyway, the expected outcome happened. With a C rating, he's mostly playing 4.5 matches where's he's 8-2 (7-2 in singles), and signed up for the league-winning 4.0 team and played the minimum matches to qualify for the playoffs, so now they get to start every playoff match up 1-0.

 

[Court Karma]

There's a guy here who was a recent college grad who played 4 years of NAIA tennis who self-rated at 5.0 and appealed to 4.5 (which is fine, he's actually a very solid 4.5 player, not a 5.0). He played the fall tri-level league and won every match, 7-0 and most in straight sets, on the 4.5 court, so he cearly didn't do anyting to "manipulate" his rating. Final YE rating? 4.0 C. Like, wtf? Schmke can explain the math of what happened there, but sometimes the math fails, and it did this time. Anyway, the expected outcome happened. With a C rating, he's mostly playing 4.5 matches where's he's 8-2 (7-2 in singles), and signed up for the league-winning 4.0 team and played the minimum matches to qualify for the playoffs, so now they get to start every playoff match up 1-0.

Wow, is that new math? Seriously, like wtf...

 

[Court Karma]

I mean, exactly this. Sometimes I really don't get tt posters, sandbagging is a mortal sin but when a situation like this happens it's met with similar disdain. The system worked, what more do you want?

I don’t know what your situation is, but most of the women I play with jump through a lot of hoops to play tennis matches while still ensuring their jobs, kids and partners are taken care of. We’re going in to work early, paying babysitters, cooking meals ahead of time that can be re-heated, arranging transportation for our kids etc. To say nothing of the money being spent for lessons and clinics to help us compete within our rated ability.

My time matters. My financial resources are limited. So what I WANT is to show up for a 4.0 USTA match knowing I will face a player who falls somewhere on the 4.0 spectrum. I think that’s reasonable.

 

[darkhorse]

I don’t know what your situation is, but most of the women I play with jump through a lot of hoops to play tennis matches while still ensuring their jobs, kids and partners are taken care of. We’re going in to work early, paying babysitters, cooking meals ahead of time that can be re-heated, arranging transportation for our kids etc. To say nothing of the money being spent for lessons and clinics to help us compete within our rated ability.

My time matters. My financial resources are limited. So what I WANT is to show up for a 4.0 USTA match knowing I will face a player who falls somewhere on the 4.0 spectrum. I think that’s reasonable.

I get that, but the NTRP system isn't infallible, either. If you're going to play USTA league, there's always a chance a new player will come in rated lower than they should be and blow opponents off of the court. I'd rather her do that and get bumped up than try and manipulate the score in order to stay at 4.0. And I doubt it was some grand scheme on the part of the club. Hell, they were probably glad just to have somebody that showed up consistently. As somebody who played USTA in my early 20s, captains loved players at that age because we didn't have any commitments that would get in the way. As long as my hangover wasn't too bad, I was at the matches.

 

[OrangePower]

My time matters. My financial resources are limited. So what I WANT is to show up for a 4.0 USTA match knowing I will face a player who falls somewhere on the 4.0 spectrum. I think that’s reasonable.

Absolutely, and I think that's what 99% of us want.

Unfortunately with players new to the system there is no way to ensure that they have accurately identified their level when self-rating. Even honest players may not really be able to gauge their level. So for self-rates the best you can hope for is that they self rated in good faith, and then play to the best of their ability (and potentially be DQ'd if warranted).

Ultimately the system relies on some degree of fair play and good faith on the part of players.

Same is true for players playing up: How do you feel when your opponent is a 3.5? Some 3.5s may actually fall on the 4.0 spectrum in terms of ability, so that would meet your desire. But some people playing up are clearly not competitive at the higher level. But there is no good way to prevent them from playing up without also preventing those that legitimately could. So again you need to rely on good faith.

 

[kevrol]

Ultimately the system relies on some degree of fair play and good faith on the part of players.

Just like life itself.

Sadly, like life itself, there are those that are willing to lie, cheat and steal in order to win. And most of the time it works.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

There's a guy here who was a recent college grad who played 4 years of NAIA tennis who self-rated at 5.0 and appealed to 4.5 (which is fine, he's actually a very solid 4.5 player, not a 5.0). He played the fall tri-level league and won every match, 7-0 and most in straight sets, on the 4.5 court, so he cearly didn't do anyting to "manipulate" his rating. Final YE rating? 4.0 C. Like, wtf? Schmke can explain the math of what happened there, but sometimes the math fails, and it did this time. Anyway, the expected outcome happened. With a C rating, he's mostly playing 4.5 matches where's he's 8-2 (7-2 in singles), and signed up for the league-winning 4.0 team and played the minimum matches to qualify for the playoffs, so now they get to start every playoff match up 1-0.

but couldn't that happen if every team knew the guy, and decided to throw the match?
i remember being on a 4.0 team after appealing, and i had like 4 teams throw their worst player at me... so i ended up playing a bunch of 3.5's... so if i didn't win by the expected margin, my rating goes down despite winning the matches.
and let's say the expectation is to win 0,0... that's really hard to do... lucky shots, loss of concentration, boredom, flash of brilliance, etc...

 

[Court Karma]

Absolutely, and I think that's what 99% of us want.

Unfortunately with players new to the system there is no way to ensure that they have accurately identified their level when self-rating. Even honest players may not really be able to gauge their level. So for self-rates the best you can hope for is that they self rated in good faith, and then play to the best of their ability (and potentially be DQ'd if warranted).

Ultimately the system relies on some degree of fair play and good faith on the part of players.

Same is true for players playing up: How do you feel when your opponent is a 3.5? Some 3.5s may actually fall on the 4.0 spectrum in terms of ability, so that would meet your desire. But some people playing up are clearly not competitive at the higher level. But there is no good way to prevent them from playing up without also preventing those that legitimately could. So again you need to rely on good faith.

Our district recently enacted a rule that prevents entire teams playing a level up. That much difference in rating was pretty much a waste of everyone’s time and resources. I can’t remember the exact rule but you have to have a certain number or percentage of players rated at the level you wish to play. I think this arrangement provides a nice pathway to players who are on the cusp and gives captains access to up-and-coming players. I’ve played two very competitive matches this year against 4.0/3.5 combinations. I would be surprised if neither 3.5 moved up.

 

[schmke]

There's a guy here who was a recent college grad who played 4 years of NAIA tennis who self-rated at 5.0 and appealed to 4.5 (which is fine, he's actually a very solid 4.5 player, not a 5.0). He played the fall tri-level league and won every match, 7-0 and most in straight sets, on the 4.5 court, so he cearly didn't do anyting to "manipulate" his rating. Final YE rating? 4.0 C. Like, wtf? Schmke can explain the math of what happened there, but sometimes the math fails, and it did this time. Anyway, the expected outcome happened. With a C rating, he's mostly playing 4.5 matches where's he's 8-2 (7-2 in singles), and signed up for the league-winning 4.0 team and played the minimum matches to qualify for the playoffs, so now they get to start every playoff match up 1-0.

Short story, the player played a bunch of 4.0s playing up and/or 4.5s that weren't strong (some bumped down at year-end), and some of his "good" wins were against self-rated players that didn't play enough to get a rating so never counted. So the math sort of never had a chance to succeed.

But this also highlights why playing up is arguably "bad" as it makes it too easy for strong players to get suppressed ratings. If they don't have the heart to beat weak players 0 & 0 and give up a game or two they shouldn't, their rating goes down and if this happens enough, a "4.5" gets a 4.0 year-end rating like happened here.

 

[schmke]

but couldn't that happen if every team knew the guy, and decided to throw the match?
i remember being on a 4.0 team after appealing, and i had like 4 teams throw their worst player at me... so i ended up playing a bunch of 3.5's... so if i didn't win by the expected margin, my rating goes down despite winning the matches.
and let's say the expectation is to win 0,0... that's really hard to do... lucky shots, loss of concentration, boredom, flash of brilliance, etc...

Exactly the point I just made as well.

 

[J_R_B]

but couldn't that happen if every team knew the guy, and decided to throw the match?
i remember being on a 4.0 team after appealing, and i had like 4 teams throw their worst player at me... so i ended up playing a bunch of 3.5's... so if i didn't win by the expected margin, my rating goes down despite winning the matches.
and let's say the expectation is to win 0,0... that's really hard to do... lucky shots, loss of concentration, boredom, flash of brilliance, etc...

In tri-level, no. Are they going to "throw" the 4.5 court by putting 4.0s on it to just sit their 4.5s (since they are not eligible for the 4.0 line)? And the guy is a good 4.5, but he's not a ringer at 4.5 (4.5 is where he should be). If you have 4.5s for tri-level, you should want to challenge him with them.

 

[J_R_B]

Short story, the player played a bunch of 4.0s playing up and/or 4.5s that weren't strong (some bumped down at year-end), and some of his "good" wins were against self-rated players that didn't play enough to get a rating so never counted. So the math sort of never had a chance to succeed.

Hey, wait a minute, what are you trying to say here?!?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

In tri-level, no. Are they going to "throw" the 4.5 court by putting 4.0s on it to just sit their 4.5s (since they are not eligible for the 4.0 line)? And the guy is a good 4.5, but he's not a ringer at 4.5 (4.5 is where he should be). If you have 4.5s for tri-level, you should want to challenge him with them.

i played tri for a couple years... at the 4.5 line...
75%+ of teams could not field 4.5's (i don't know why), so most of the time i was playing mid 4.0's, but because they couldn't play dubs, were more like low 4.0's

 

[schmke]

i played tri for a couple years... at the 4.5 line...
75%+ of teams could not field 4.5's (i don't know why), so most of the time i was playing mid 4.0's, but because they couldn't play dubs, were more like low 4.0's

In my area we are required to have at least one at-level player on the court for Tri-Level (aka One Doubles here), but you still see players playing up some. It is typically someone thinking they can get bumped up by doing it or wanting to challenge themselves by playing up. Or it is an opportunity to play with a friend who is a level higher.

 

[schmke]

Hey, wait a minute, what are you trying to say here?!?

Ummm, the system got those bump downs wrong too? And now those players are being accused of sandbagging at 4.0?

 

[Mongolmike]

A friend of mine never played USTA before, self rated a 3.5 for 55 and over, which is all doubles. He lost every match (I think he played 5 times). He lost every match and got bumped up to 4.0. I tried to explain how that could happen, but all he kept saying was , "How can I get bumped up when I lost every match?" He did have a leg injury over this winter and chose not to play USTA this year, and probably nevermore.

 

[CosmosMpower]

A friend of mine never played USTA before, self rated a 3.5 for 55 and over, which is all doubles. He lost every match (I think he played 5 times). He lost every match and got bumped up to 4.0. I tried to explain how that could happen, but all he kept saying was , "How can I get bumped up when I lost every match?" He did have a leg injury over this winter and chose not to play USTA this year, and probably nevermore.

Probably won too many games against high 3.5's that also got bumped to 4.0

 

[OrangePower]

Just like life itself.

Sadly, like life itself, there are those that are willing to lie, cheat and steal in order to win. And most of the time it works.

True. Luckily with tennis the damage done is minimal - worst case scenarios is you waste some time getting blown off the court (or blowing someone off the court).

I've always said that if ever I was going to be dishonest / cheat / steal, it would have to be for a really, really, really life-changing amount of money

 

[Deleted member 23235]

In my area we are required to have at least one at-level player on the court for Tri-Level (aka One Doubles here), but you still see players playing up some. It is typically someone thinking they can get bumped up by doing it or wanting to challenge themselves by playing up. Or it is an opportunity to play with a friend who is a level higher.

it's too bad it doesn't require 2x 4.5C...
while it's fun for me to challenge myself against 2x 5.0, i'm really wasting their time, which makes them not want to play in the future.

 

[kevrol]

I've always said that if ever I was going to be dishonest / cheat / steal, it would have to be for a really, really, really life-changing amount of money

Before watching Breaking Bad I thought the same. However it seems that actually being able to spend all that ill-gotten money, without raising suspicion, is very, very, very difficult.

 

[jm1980]

Over the last year this individual played competitive juniors at the 4.5/5.0 level.

Juniors have no NTRP, no?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Before watching Breaking Bad I thought the same. However it seems that actually being able to spend all that ill-gotten money, without raising suspicion, is very, very, very difficult.

if only i had those problems.

 

[gmatheis]

Okay, that is cheating. If she is quite young and so recently played high level competitive juniors with no layoff, yeah, no way she is only a 4.0.

I was pleased with one of our pros ... one of my 3.5 teammates wanted to have her daughter join the team. Daughter is a college student and is not playing college tennis. BUT as a high school student won state doubles twice. The pro said no way. Don't care if she hasn't played in 3 years at all. She rates no lower than 4.0, preferably 4.5.

That has nothing to do with the pro, self rate questions put her at 4.0 minimum for advancing to a state championship

 

[gmatheis]

Before watching Breaking Bad I thought the same. However it seems that actually being able to spend all that ill-gotten money, without raising suspicion, is very, very, very difficult.

nah, you just buy all the little things with cash. Groceries, restaurant bills, gas, clothing etc …

wait

I mean yeah it would be hard, I have no idea how you would do it

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That has nothing to do with the pro, self rate questions put her at 4.0 minimum for advancing to a state championship

IF she answers truthfully...

 

[J_R_B]

Ummm, the system got those bump downs wrong too? And now those players are being accused of sandbagging at 4.0?

Anyone who's seen me play this season would not say that they got those bump downs wrong. LOL.

 

[beernutz]

It will probably never happen but IMO the USTA could remove some of the motivation captains have to accept clearly underrated self-rated players on their teams by not allowing self rated players to participate in playoffs.

 

[OrangePower]

It will probably never happen but IMO the USTA could remove some of the motivation captains have to accept clearly underrated self-rated players on their teams by not allowing self rated players to participate in playoffs.

Completely agree on both counts.

 

[soki]

A friend of mine never played USTA before, self rated a 3.5 for 55 and over, which is all doubles. He lost every match (I think he played 5 times). He lost every match and got bumped up to 4.0. I tried to explain how that could happen, but all he kept saying was , "How can I get bumped up when I lost every match?" He did have a leg injury over this winter and chose not to play USTA this year, and probably nevermore.

Is your friend on TR/TLS?

 

[Mongolmike]

Is your friend on TR/TLS?

Probably. I never checked. (I don't think there is a choice. If you play USTA league they mine the data, right?)

 

[soki]

Probably. I never checked. (I don't think there is a choice. If you play USTA league they mine the data, right?)

Yeah I think so, as long as it was recent (within the past several years) enough. Just wondering if either of those sites predicted he would get bumped up too, despite the losses.

 

[Mongolmike]

Yeah I think so, as long as it was recent (within the past several years) enough. Just wondering if either of those sites predicted he would get bumped up too, despite the losses.

Don't know. It was his first year. Self rated, lost all matches to tough opponents and got bumped up.

Edit, looked up his record-

So his first USTA match ever he lost to a tough pair 2-6 0-6
Second match an even tough match 6-1 2-6 0-1
3rd match same opponent lost 4-6 7-6 0-1
4rth match vs same opponent a third time 4-6 4-6
5th match lost 6-4 4-6 0-1

 

[Max G.]

Sounds like in matches 2, 3, and 5 he was right there. If his opponents in those matches were bumped up, it makes sense he would be too. But if they weren't, then his bumpup makes no sense.

 

[Tennisguy102]

I had the unfortunate experience of playing a open level player who sandbagged in our winter 4.0 mens league. I kid you not, I got his name and looked him up, he played for Harvard and then played challengers and futures for 2 years. Less than 5 years after that, he sandbags in this league and absolutely smokes me and my partner in 3 sets. We only got a set by never letting him touch the ball, after that he got serious and poached at net and shut us down. He had like 40 aces the entire match, he had bigger heat than even the local pro does on his serve. My captain filed a grievance and last I heard he was banned for a few years from any tournaments or leagues.

 

[schmke]

I had the unfortunate experience of playing a open level player who sandbagged in our winter 4.0 mens league. I kid you not, I got his name and looked him up, he played for Harvard and then played challengers and futures for 2 years. Less than 5 years after that, he sandbags in this league and absolutely smokes me and my partner in 3 sets. We only got a set by never letting him touch the ball, after that he got serious and poached at net and shut us down. He had like 40 aces the entire match, he had bigger heat than even the local pro does on his serve. My captain filed a grievance and last I heard he was banned for a few years from any tournaments or leagues.

Glad you filed the grievance and glad the system worked and banned him.