Peak Kuerten vs Peak Thiem in a RG showdown: Who takes home the trophy?

[stringertom]

Fun hypothetical with RG around the corner. Guga vs Der Thieminator, peak for peak, at RG. Who comes out on top, and how does it play out?

Vote and discuss!

If anyone says "Connors in 5," I will smack you through my screen.

Reported for threatening physical violence.

As much as Thiem is one of my favorite current players, I have to honestly state that he is no match for peak Guga. Had Kuerten not wrecked his hip he would have challenged what was RG’s gold standard at the time, Borg’s 6 titles.

 

[Sunny014]

Guga beats Thiem 6-3, 6-2 and 6-1

It would be a bloodbath

 

[Sunny014]

agree with beatlesfan .... poll is insulting to kuerten

I dare say Gustavo Kuerten has the game to be another Soderling to Rafa.

Who is thiem? He is a nothing more than a weak pansy.

 

[zagor]

At their best? Guga in straights, he does everything better than the princess of clay. Guga was quite streaky though in terms of day-to-day performances.

Lol yeah he can take 5 clay matches off Nadal but could only muster a few games against a guy that is vastly inferior to Nadal?

He beat Nadal in his 30s in CC masters (and still never won a title after), so did Fognini, Frodo, Tsitsipas, Zverev etc. etc. it really doesn't mean much at this stage of his career.

At FO, he's 1-12 in sets which is pitiful for a supposed CC great.

 

[ForehandCross]

I haven't seen Guga to comment on this thread.

But if somehow if it's Thiem that saves Roger's record this RG, all these guys trashing him would start worshipping him like a God.

 

[mike danny]

I haven't seen Guga to comment on this thread.

But if somehow if it's Thiem that saves Roger's record this RG, all these guys trashing him would start worshipping him like a God.

Thiem never stood a chance even when he was in better form, why would he suddenly stand a chance now when his form is in a gutter?

He's not even beating Djokovic let alone Nadal.

 

[Krish0608]

I haven't seen Guga to comment on this thread.

But if somehow if it's Thiem that saves Roger's record this RG, all these guys trashing him would start worshipping him like a God.

That's completely unrelated to the topic. Thiem does not hold a candle to Guga. It's the truth.

 

[mike danny]

That's completely unrelated to the topic. Thiem does not hold a candle to Guga. It's the truth.

The guy is almost 28 and hasn't won a single masters on clay. Yeah, he's not in the same league as Guga.

 

[mike danny]

Lol at Kuerten in 3 votes.

Kuerten would have looked very ordinary against Rafa at FO and wins 0 in this era most likely. Is he better than Thiem? Probably slightly, but not by that much.

Uhhh, Thiem is almost 28 and hasn't won a single masters on clay. Yeah, he's not in the same league as Guga for now.

 

[Biotic]

Lmao

 

[Sunny014]

Guga is one of the GOATs on Clay.
It is a shame that a clown like Thiem is even being discussed in the same league.

Clay Hierarchy is

Nadal > Borg > Guga > Djokovic/Federer/Lendl > Others

Who the f**k is Thiem ?

 

[ibbi]

I don't know that Guga would need the help, but Thiem will surely choke, and therefore he will likely get it.

 

[zagor]

I haven't seen Guga to comment on this thread.

But if somehow if it's Thiem that saves Roger's record this RG, all these guys trashing him would start worshipping him like a God.

Wouldn't change much in regards to this thread. Soderling took out Nadal which allowed Fed to win FO in 2009, doesn't make him Guga's level on clay.

Thiem is a very good player but overrated as hell. Kuerten was a streaky player but on his best day it would take the likes of Nadal or Borg to stop him on clay.

 

[zagor]

Uhhh, Thiem is almost 28 and hasn't won a single masters on clay. Yeah, he's not in the same league as Guga for now.

If he was, he kinda would have showed it by now. I think it's far more likely that he's finished than a Stan type late career resurgence.

 

[mike danny]

If he was, he kinda would have showed it by now. I think it's far more likely that he's finished than a Stan type late career resurgence.

A Stan-like career resurgence is off the table, IMO, because Thiem already has much more mileage than Stan had at Thiem's current age.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Uhhh, Thiem is almost 28 and hasn't won a single masters on clay. Yeah, he's not in the same league as Guga for now.

I thought Masters don’t count for you?

 

[mike danny]

I thought Masters don’t count for you?

I never said they don't count entirely. They are big tournaments after all. And in a comparison between Thiem and Guga on clay, Thiem not having a single masters title kinda makes this a KO in Guga's favor.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

If Kuerten so much better than everyone, why isn’t he higher on this list?

Win/Loss Index | ATP Tour | Tennis

In-depth data analysis of the performance of ATP Tour players. Featuring year-to-date, 52-week, and career data for the top players in men's professional tennis.

www.atptour.com

 

[Sabrina]

So now we are comparing a 3 times RG champion to someone who still hasn't won a MS1000 on clay like Thiem?

Guga in straights, no doubt about it. Players like Kuerten should only be compared with clay greats like Courier, Lendl or Muster, etc.

I think peak Kuerten vs Wawrinka Roland Garros 2015 is a better question really.

 

[King No1e]

A Stan-like career resurgence is off the table, IMO, because Thiem already has much more mileage than Stan had at Thiem's current age.

"Resurgence"? He just won a Slam and is around the high point of his career (well not specifically now, but over the last year or 2). The question isn't whether he can suddenly surge up like Wawrinka (who was just a standard top 20 player most of his career), the question is how long he can sustain his prime form to win a few more Slams before it's too late.

 

[King No1e]

Thiem never stood a chance even when he was in better form, why would he suddenly stand a chance now when his form is in a gutter?

He's not even beating Djokovic let alone Nadal.

I'm really worried too, especially after that Norrie loss. But remember that Thiem also had a relatively bad 2019 clay season before reaching the RG final and beating Djokovic along the way. He could've definitely challenged Nadal harder if he wasn't exhausted from playing 4 days in a row.
So pre-RG form isn't really make-or-break when it comes to Thiem.

 

[mike danny]

I'm really worried too, especially after that Norrie loss. But remember that Thiem also had a relatively bad 2019 clay season before reaching the RG final and beating Djokovic along the way. He could've definitely challenged Nadal harder if he wasn't exhausted from playing 4 days in a row.
So pre-RG form isn't really make-or-break when it comes to Thiem.

In 2019 he was still better as he won Barcelona beating Nadal. Right now, it's much worse.

 

[King No1e]

In 2019 he was still better as he won Barcelona beating Nadal. Right now, it's much worse.

That's true and that's the most worrying part. No signs of life at all. I wouldn't go so far as to say he can't beat Djokovic, but at the moment Nadal's the big favorite if they do meet.

The only thing to do now is wait and see. Writing off Thiem is a fool's errand.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I never said they don't count entirely. They are big tournaments after all. And in a comparison between Thiem and Guga on clay, Thiem not having a single masters title kinda makes this a KO in Guga's favor.

I don’t think Thiem has any statistical argument n his favor, except career winning percentage on clay.
Kuerten crushes him in all other key metrics.
HOWEVER, I stand by my statement that Kuerten’s resume, like Muster’s, would be significantly less impressive in the era of Rafa.

 

[King No1e]

My answer to this question would also (of course) be Kuerten, but not as one-sided as many people seem to think. It's amazing how much one bad clay season makes people forget how good Thiem is on clay. He was the only player who could beat Nadal on clay between Rome 16 and MC19. He also outclassed Djokovic twice at RG. It's also undeniably true that Guga would've had his hands full too if he had to play Nadal every time at RG.

Overall, it would be one heck of a match, but Kuerten is the ATG here and I'd pick him in 4 tight sets. If they played 10 times in identical circumstances, though, I'd expect Der Thieminator to win at least a few.

 

[intrepidish]

I don’t think Thiem has any statistical argument n his favor, except career winning percentage on clay.
Kuerten crushes him in all other key metrics.
HOWEVER, I stand by my statement that Kuerten’s resume, like Muster’s, would be significantly less impressive in the era of Rafa.

I saw everyone from Vilas and Borg onward play live. We'd be talking about the clay 'mugs' like Muster and Guga if they coincided with Rafa's peak. They'd also be praying for a Nadal off day.

Thiem's physicality alone puts him above just about any clay courter who has ever played except Nadal. It's easy to dump on Thiem for not getting it done against Rafa and for his current slump but no one would have gotten it done against Rafa in form and Thiem played him as well as anyone for a bit there.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

So now we are comparing a 3 times RG champion to someone who still hasn't won a MS1000 on clay like Thiem?

Guga in straights, no doubt about it. Players like Kuerten should only be compared with clay greats like Courier, Lendl or Muster, etc.

I think peak Kuerten vs Wawrinka Roland Garros 2015 is a better question really.

Thiem did everything Wawrinka did at RG except win a final.
He beat Nole twice. He played Nadal better H2H in his most recent final than Stan ever has. Stan was pummeled by Nadal mercilessly.
Nadal would also pummel Kuerten.
Basically Kuerten, Stan, Fed, Nole only have RG titles because they didn’t have to play Rafa in a final.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

I saw everyone from Vilas and Borg onward play live. We'd be talking about the clay 'mugs' like Muster and Guga if they coincided with Rafa's peak. They'd also be praying for a Nadal off day.

Thiem's physicality alone puts him above just about any clay courter who has ever played except Nadal. It's easy to dump on Thiem for not getting it done against Rafa and for his current slump but no one would have gotten it done against Rafa in form and Thiem played him as well as anyone for a bit there.

Really glad to see someone stand up for Thiem. He hits one of the most vicious clay FHs tennis has ever seen and has become ALMOST Nadalian in his physicality.
Really hope he wins RG and silences some of his haters! I just don’t see it happening this year, and unless it happens against Nadal himself, his detractors will still find a way to hate on him. Meanwhile, all the guys that won RG in the pre-Nadal era are immune to that criticism...

 

[JackSockIsTheBest]

I don't get why people bash Thiem on this forum, he has accomplished a lot more than some players will ever have

 

[mental midget]

pretty fun match actually. kuerten's obviously got the resume edge (an a little more game overall, serve and touch in particular) but i could see this being a fun showdown. but to answer the question, guga most likely, most times.

 

[Chanwan]

Kuerten 6-4, 6-3, 5-7, 6-2.

Something like this

 

[Sport]

Thiem in 4.

Thiem would be a 3-times RG winner (RG 2017, RG 2018 and RG 2019) without Nadal, the same as Kuerten.

Tennis players' quality evolves over time. Thiem has a superior forehand, backhand and movement than Kuerten. Kuerten was extremelly tall, similar to Tsitsipas' height, and thus his mobility was inferior compared to elite clay players under 1,88 m.

We all know that Kuerten did beat prime Federer in RG 2004. But Roger's backhand was subpar during those days. Roger in 2006 and 2011 was in better form.

 

[Third Serve]

Thiem in 4.

Thiem would be a 3-times RG winner (RG 2017, RG 2018 and RG 2019) without Nadal, the same as Kuerten.

Tennis players' quality evolves over time. Thiem has a superior forehand, backhand and movement than Kuerten. Kuerten was extremelly tall, similar to Tsitsipas' height, and thus his mobility was inferior compared to elite clay players under 1,90 m.

We all know that Kuerten did beat prime Federer in RG 2004. But Roger's backhand was subpar during those days. Roger in 2006 and 2011 was in better form.

Untestable, therefore...

 

[Unforced Winner]

Thiem has a superior backhand ??
Thanks for the laugh !

 

[Sport]

Untestable, therefore...

Irrelevant. Like this:

Had Kuerten not wrecked his hip he would have challenged what was RG’s gold standard at the time, Borg’s 6 titles.

 

[Sport]

Thiem has a superior backhand ??
Thanks for the laugh !

Thiem has arguably the most complete one-handed backhand of all time. He can hit deep winners, and slice quite well. Kuerten's backhand is also great though.

 

[Swingmaster]

I would like to think Kuerten would win, so I'll reluctantly say Keurten in four. But I can not mentally picture him destroying Thiem. A computer simulation would probably have Thiem winning.

 

[tudwell]

Thiem has arguably the most complete one-handed backhand of all time. He can hit deep winners, and slice quite well.

Reading this makes my eyes burn.

 

[NatF]

Untestable, therefore...

Roddick is also equal to Becker ar Wimbledon

 

[Crazy Finn]

I don't get why people bash Thiem on this forum, he has accomplished a lot more than some players will ever have

It might seem like bashing but some are elevating Thiem to basically ATG just because he happens to play during Rafa's era (let's be honest, old Rafa era) and occasionally wins against him - though not in slams. Apparently that puts him up with Borg and Lendl in Clay Court prowess.

Apparently, theoretical Thiem, along with theoretical Federer, theoretical Seles, and theoretical Roddick, is undefeated. Thiem wins what 6-8 RG without Rafa? Good god.

 

[intrepidish]

Really glad to see someone stand up for Thiem. He hits one of the most vicious clay FHs tennis has ever seen and has become ALMOST Nadalian in his physicality. Really hope he wins RG and silences some of his haters! I just don’t see it happening this year, and unless it happens against Nadal himself, his detractors will still find a way to hate on him. Meanwhile, all the guys that won RG in the pre-Nadal era are immune to that criticism...

I'll even go a step further. Besides Nadal, Thiem at his best may well be the best player from the backcourt on clay we've seen. He can actually go toe to toe with Nadal there as well or better than anyone and if Nadal didn't have better court sense and transition game, he could easily have lost to Thiem in their last RG final. Thiem was more or less a match for a pretty good Nadal from the backcourt.

People here tend to have short memories and to systematically undervalue anything not done by the big 3 and very few others from the past.

 

[King No1e]

Reading this makes my eyes burn.

Thiem's backhand is an exceptional shot, but variety really isn't one of his strong suits

 

[Sport]

Thiem's backhand is an exceptional shot, but variety really isn't one of his strong suits

It is. Unlike Wawrinka, he slices usually and effectively. And unlike Federer, he doesn't abuse of the slice and hits more frequently flat and deep backhands.

The slice is an important shot in certain phases of the match, but it cannot be used in the majority of backhand shots. After all, a slice backhand is a defensive shot (you don't usually make "slice winners", but you do make flat backhand winners).

 

[Sport]

Roddick is also equal to Becker ar Wimbledon

Kuerten is also equal to Borg according to some forum users, yet you don't point that out.

 

[King No1e]

It is. Unlike Wawrinka, he slices usually and effectively. And unlike Federer, he doesn't abuse of the slice and hits more frequently flat and deep backhands.

The slice is an important shot in certain phases of the match, but it cannot be used in the majority of backhand shots. After all, a slice backhand is a defensive shot (you don't usually make "slice winners", but you do make flat backhand winners).

Thiem's slice is okay, but Federer blows him out of the water variety-wise. Both Fed and Wawrinka can generate better angles and react quicker with that shot than Thiem does. However Thiem easily has the most power and spin of any 1HBH, solid consistency, strong as both a defensive wall and an aggressive weapon, and he can actually hurt Nadal with it. No other 1HBH can do that.

 

[Sport]

Reading this makes my eyes burn.

That is a logical fallacy (wrong argument) known as appeal to ridicule. It ia a rethoric strategy which consists in presenting the opponent's claim as ridiculous, absurd or not worthy of serious consideration to avoid the debate about the topic in hand.

You have not provided any single argument as of why is Thiem's backhand not most complete than Federer's or Warinka's one.

 

[MeatTornado]

Thiem has arguably the most complete one-handed backhand of all time. He can hit deep winners, and slice quite well. Kuerten's backhand is also great though.

Thiem only very recently started to figure out how to slice. We've still yet to see him use the shot effectively at all on clay.

 

[Sport]

Thiem's slice is okay, but Federer blows him out of the water variety-wise. Both Fed and Wawrinka can generate better angles and react quicker with that shot than Thiem does. However Thiem easily has the most power and spin of any 1HBH, solid consistency, strong as both a defensive wall and an aggressive weapon, and he can actually hurt Nadal with it. No other 1HBH can do that.

That's absolutely true. Thiem's flat backhand power blows out Federer's one. Thiem's backhand is more of a weapon. Federer's backhand is amazing (especially in 2017), no doubt about it, but overall it overrelies on the slice. The slice is a defensive shot, useful at certain points, but it cannot be the main backhand shot. Federer sometimes abuses of repeating the slice and and not hitting powerful flat backhands.

Thiem not only hurts Nadal on hard with his one-handed backhand. He also hurts Novak
Remember the ATP 2019 finals, where Dominic defeated Novak thanks to, among other things, executing several powerful backhand winners.

 

[King No1e]

Thiem only very recently started to figure out how to slice. We've still yet to see him use the shot effectively at all on clay.

Does it really matter when your 1HBH can stand up to Claydal on its own?

 

[Cashman]

Connors in four