Put Sir Andrew Barron Murray in the 2003-2009 era instead of Federer, how does he do?

[RS]

Maybe it is better to match Agassi of AO 04 vs Murray AO 11 instead because then nobody can say the other faced a weaker draw.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Barron Von Murray to win something in that era.

 

[RF-18]

RF-18 lives in his own world. Total ignorance of tennis before his time.

you can't look past that draw. If you think 2021 was weak then what the hell do you feel about a draw such as that? You are one of those to quickly point out stat inflation cause of bad draws and what not but here there is no issue of course.

 

[NatF]

you can't look past that draw. If you think 2021 was weak then what the hell do you feel about a draw such as that? You are one of those to quickly point out stat inflation cause of bad draws and what not but here there is no issue of course.

It was a weak draw no doubt. Terrible draw. The disconnect is you thinking that somehow means Murray is whooping Agassi...

 

[NatF]

Why do I have a feeling that if we said peak Murray could beat AO ‘19 Novak and used the same argument about AO '19 Djokovic's competition (Pouille, Retire-ikori were his SF+QF) we would suddenly hear about how the competition isn’t as important and the peak level is what matters? Many sighs.

But Djokovic beat peak Nadal?

 

[Slicehand]

I dont know but federer at that time won a lot of matches playing pretty average, like he was bored or something, i realised that watching back some of his peak era matches, he wouldnt have got away with that in other eras

 

[RS]

1. Berdych AO 12 QF vs Federer AO 12 SF
2. Djokovic AO 08 SF vs Nadal AO 12 QF
3. Blake USO 05 QF vs Federer USO 15 F
4. Roddick Wim 04 final vs Cllic USO 14 F ( on the fast HC and grass)
5. Djokovic Wim 13 SF vs Nadal Wim 18 SF
6. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 20 SF

Who wins these matchups?

 

[RF-18]

Why do I have a feeling that if we said peak Murray could beat AO ‘19 Novak and used the same argument about AO '19 Djokovic's competition (Pouille, Retire-ikori were his SF+QF) we would suddenly hear about how the competition isn’t as important and the peak level is what matters? Many sighs.

Djokovic proved his level against a known champion such as Nadal.

But hey, Nadal was terrible anyway that tournament, right? Doesn't matter that he won every match in straights and got broken once, his performances and stats were inflated due to terrible draw and no one that could "expose" him. This is what people say when they mention that Nadal was in form that tournament.

 

[Kralingen]

Djokovic proved his level against a known champion such as Nadal.

But hey, Nadal was terrible anyway that tournament, right? Doesn't matter that he won every match in straights and got broken once, his performances and stats were inflated due to terrible draw and no one that could "expose" him. This is what people say when they mention that Nadal was in form that tournament.

I just wish we could have an actual tennis discussion about quality of play, strengths and weaknesses of both players, rather than name throwing and 'ROFL Scheuttler'-ing

 

[RF-18]

But Djokovic beat peak Nadal?

Yea Nadals stats that tournament before the final didn't mean much right due to his terrible draw and no one to "expose" him? Isn't this what you and many others have said many times when mentioning his form that tournament?

 

[RF-18]

It was a weak draw no doubt. Terrible draw. The disconnect is you thinking that somehow means Murray is whooping Agassi...

He is not whooping him, I'm just open to the possibility that Murray could actually win that match wich abmk wasn't who shut the possibility down by throwing lols at @The Guru.

 

[RF-18]

I just wish we could have an actual tennis discussion about quality of play, strengths and weaknesses of both players, rather than name throwing and 'ROFL Scheuttler'-ing

@abmk triggered me by loling at another poster who said Murray would win AOs in that era. That was why I did that.

 

[NatF]

Yea Nadals stats that tournament before the final didn't mean much right due to his terrible draw and no one to "expose" him? Isn't this what you and many others have said many times when mentioning his form that tournament?

Indeed, Nadal himself said he wasn't prepared and you love to hang on players words...

This is why I use my eyes to judge. Agassi was playing good ball, do I think it was an ATG run? No. But I don't it needs to be to top Murray who's never played three competitive sets in an AO final.

He is not whooping him, I'm just open to the possibility that Murray could actually win that match wich abmk wasn't who shut the possibility down by throwing lols at @The Guru.

He could win but he wouldn't be the favourite imo.

 

[RF-18]

Here's how Agassi could win: have you ever seen Andy Murray's second serve? And, if you have seen it, have you ever seen Andre Agassi's second serve return?

Agassi would probably win because not only is he better at returning than Murray, he has better groundstrokes off both wings than Murray and despite being 32, was motivated and in probably the best shape of his career.

To be honest with you though, you are right with the return talk and 2nd serve. Murray woulda be in trouble just like against Djokovic. But Agassi isn't as good as Djokovic though all round. Would Agassi be able to grind with Murray on the baseline? Does he defend as well as Djokovic and keep that intensity? Interesting things to consider here. I feel murray could poke some holes to give himself chsnces. And Murray has a stunning return of his own.

 

[The Guru]

Nope.

Which one does? AO? W? Certainly not RG with Nadal?

 

[RS]

I just wish we could have an actual tennis discussion about quality of play, strengths and weaknesses of both players, rather than name throwing and 'ROFL Scheuttler'-ing

Answer some of my matchups above if you want level of play stuff.

 

[The Guru]

Indeed, Nadal himself said he wasn't prepared and you love to hang on players words...

This is why I use my eyes to judge. Agassi was playing good ball, do I think it was an ATG run? No. But I don't it needs to be to top Murray who's never played three competitive sets in an AO final.



He could win but he wouldn't be the favourite imo.

There is something to be said for the fact that Murray struggled with confidence because he literally came against Novak every year just to fail. That mental edge isn't there and he also has more favorable matchups (stylistically) with the players of the 00s imo. You may disagree.

 

[mike danny]

Which one does? AO? W? Certainly not RG with Nadal?

Disagree with USO having the easier draws. AO did.

 

[RS]

I dont know but federer at that time won a lot of matches playing pretty average, like he was bored or something, i realised that watching back some of his peak era matches, he wouldnt have got away with that in other eras

Thinking of the Wim 09 final?

 

[NatF]

There is something to be said for the fact that Murray struggled with confidence because he literally came against Novak every year just to fail. That mental edge isn't there and he also has more favorable matchups (stylistically) with the players of the 00s imo. You may disagree.

Ultimately Djokovic does just about everything better than Murray, including running, so his safety net is gone in that match-up. Djokovic did have a tendency to let Murray play though. Agassi is a much worse mover but he's no less consistent off the ground and he's more likely to take the initiative early in rallies - AA would punish Murray in different ways imo.

 

[Slicehand]

Thinking of the Wim 09 final?

Many non popular matches too, even in 2006 which is supposed to be his best year, and result wise it is, but watching some earlier rounds matches he won, i just get the feeling that there i saw some of the worst shots i ever seen from him, i feel that he plays much better today, more touch, smarter shots, craftier... he is just some steps slower and doesnt have the same pace but every other thing seems better to me, like in 2017, he played amazing that year, its true that in his peak years he played many more matches per year, so its normal that in many of them he wasnt so inspired

 

[The Guru]

Disagree with USO having the easier draws. AO did.

Fair enough. I went AO for the clearly higher highs with 03 Agassi, 05 Safin, 08 Novak, and 09 Nadal. No one at the USO comes to that level of the last three especially. Strange you dismiss it with as curtly and easily as a nope. Doesn't seem to me like I made an outlandish claim at all.

 

[Kralingen]

1. Berdych AO 12 QF vs Federer AO 12 SF Berdych played a slight bit better but Fed would be better in that matchup than vs. Nadal. USO ‘12 though.. so Berdych in 4
2. Djokovic AO 08 SF vs Nadal AO 12 QF Tough but Djokovic in 4/5, despite real ‘12ovic going 5 with real Nadal. Honestly I think only Nadal’s ‘09 version beats ‘08 Djokovic at AO.
3. Blake USO 05 QF vs Federer USO 15 F is Fed going to throw away BPs 20 times? I lean Federer in 4 but requires clutching in TBs. if no clutch, Blake in 5 for sure.
4. Roddick Wim 04 final vs Cllic USO 14 F ( on the fast HC and grass) Roddick > any Cilic on grass, but imo Marin and Andy ‘03 USO go 5. Toss up.
5. Djokovic Wim 13 SF vs Nadal Wim 18 SF probably Djokovic but will give Nadal in 5 bc I’ve been mean in this hypothetical set.
6. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 20 SF
Agassi wins the 1st set for sure lol. Honestly I give it to Agassi in 5 on RA but not sure on plexi. I think ‘04 SF Safin beats this Djokovic though

You gotta chill with the cross surface hypotheticals lol. Here you go.

@abmk triggered me by loling at another poster who said Murray would win AOs in that era. That was why I did that.

Look I don’t really enjoy Abmk’s argument style either lol. But he almost never reacts that way to my opinions, perhaps bc I don’t argue in a disingenuous way and make false equivalencies?

 

[mike danny]

Fair enough. I went AO for the clearly higher highs with 03 Agassi, 05 Safin, 08 Novak, and 09 Nadal. No one at the USO comes to that level of the last three especially. Strange you dismiss it with as curtly and easily as a nope. Doesn't seem to me like I made an outlandish claim at all.

Then why did you say he'd clean up at the AO?

 

[mike danny]

I dont know but federer at that time won a lot of matches playing pretty average, like he was bored or something, i realised that watching back some of his peak era matches, he wouldnt have got away with that in other eras

No, that's post AO 2019 Djokovic you're describing.

 

[mike danny]

He is not whooping him, I'm just open to the possibility that Murray could actually win that match wich abmk wasn't who shut the possibility down by throwing lols at @The Guru.

Murray is no stranger to losing to old men.

 

[mike danny]

He is not whooping him, I'm just open to the possibility that Murray could actually win that match wich abmk wasn't who shut the possibility down by throwing lols at @The Guru.

Maybe Agassi's run wasn't the best, but he doesn't need to be at his absolute best considering this is Murray in a slam final we're talking about.

 

[mike danny]

Many non popular matches too, even in 2006 which is supposed to be his best year, and result wise it is, but watching some earlier rounds matches he won, i just get the feeling that there i saw some of the worst shots i ever seen from him, i feel that he plays much better today, more touch, smarter shots, craftier... he is just some steps slower and doesnt have the same pace but every other thing seems better to me, like in 2017, he played amazing that year, its true that in his peak years he played many more matches per year, so its normal that in many of them he wasnt so inspired

I mean, Federer didn't bring his top level in the early rounds which is normal. You don't access your highest gear against opponents that are not worth it. Top guys usually blitz through these early rounders with their C game even and elevate their level for the later stages where tougher opponents usually await you.

 

[RF-18]

Maybe Agassi's run wasn't the best, but he doesn't need to be at his absolute best considering this is Murray in a slam final we're talking about.

Murray played Djokovic. There is a difference. If you can't see that even when the thread is right infront of your eyes it's not my problem.

 

[nolefam_2024]

and when we mention stats of certain players this era to try and show their level its cause the era is bad and stats are inflated. KEKW. But Agassis games won % is a deal breaker against that draw of players. Sure thing.

You sure Agassis stats aren't inflated cause of that draw? 5th highest games won %, but at the same time top 3 weakest draw of all time (since tennis started). That won't tell us Murray wouldn't be able to beat Agassi.

Just because you are a Nolefam, you don't have to overrate Andy Murray. He played 11 finals , won just 3. His AO finals in 2010, 11 were pathetic performances.

 

[Slicehand]

No, that's post AO 2019 Djokovic you're describing.

One doesnt take away the other does it? Djokovic is the master of not playing great and winning, but i didnt remember so many fed average matches from his peak era until i watched them recently, its like his tecqunique is much more polished now

 

[Slicehand]

I mean, Federer didn't bring his top level in the early rounds which is normal. You don't access your highest gear against opponents that are not worth it. Top guys usually blitz through these early rounders with their C game even and elevate their level for the later stages where tougher opponents usually await you.

I dont think that its just that top players dont try hard in early rounds, i think it has more to do with adapting to the conditions of the given tournament, takes some time to get used to the courts, the bounce and the climate, they find their timing and their game as tournament goes on, even so, i still think fed plays better in earlier round in recent years, but then we also have to think that he used to play many more matches and that takes a toll specially mentally, you just dont have ideas so fresh on court, i think thats what i really felt

 

[RF-18]

Just because you are a Nolefam, you don't have to overrate Andy Murray. He played 11 finals , won just 3. His AO finals in 2010, 11 were pathetic performances.

Nothing to do with Djokovic.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray just is not good enough to dominate tennis.

 

[goldengate14]

Dont know.

 

[The Guru]

Ultimately Djokovic does just about everything better than Murray, including running, so his safety net is gone in that match-up. Djokovic did have a tendency to let Murray play though. Agassi is a much worse mover but he's no less consistent off the ground and he's more likely to take the initiative early in rallies - AA would punish Murray in different ways imo.

That's a matchup I'd love to see. With both guys returning at a super high level it'd be a rally fest between two of the best. It'd really come down to Murray using court craft to widen the court and grinding out Agassi's legs vs Agassi punishing Murray's 2nd and controlling the center with aggressive shotmaking. I think Murray does about as good a job as is possible on HCs of remaining unattackable (or at least making it unfavorable for the opponent to attack obviously anyone can attack anytime they want) and that leads me to believe he could use his stamina edge on an older Agassi. Obviously it depends on the level both guys bring but Murray is not in nearly as bad of a position vs Agassi as he is with Novak. With Novak there's no real game plan for him to win. It's just hope I play amazing and he doesn't bring his A game. With Agassi there's more in his game that he can use to exploit.

 

[The Guru]

Then why did you say he'd clean up at the AO?

Cuz he's much better at AO then USO. Maybe that would've changed but he doesn't have many deep runs at the UO. By clean up I meant win the easy ones you were referring to. Clean up as in clean up the trash (tournaments). So 06-07 plus maybe one more (prolly 03 or 04)

 

[abmk]

Did you see Agassis draw in 2003 AO? Why wouldn't Murray be able to beat Agassi? Like hus level meant something huge vs these players, what a draw.

2003 AO draw for Agassi

4th R: Coria
QF: Grosjean
SF: Ferreira
F: Schuttler

Yeah, Agassi's draw was very easy, but he was dominant at that AO, you utter muppet of a clown. clearly better than Murray at any AO. Even Agassi at AO 04 who was a little worse than in AO 03 was clearly better than any Murray at the AO.
but then your sole agenda is to pump up djokovic and his competition, so you spread BS nonsense.

this is you, absolute muppet of a clown.

 

[abmk]

@abmk triggered me by loling at another poster who said Murray would win AOs in that era. That was why I did that.

hey you muppet, I myself said Murray could win AO 06/AO 07.
I only objected to statement saying Murray would clean up at the AO

 

[abmk]

2-3 AO 1 USO 1 W. USO has the easiest draws but Murray doesn't have many good runs there for whatever reason.

AO was weaker than USO btw. (06/07 and agassi's half in 03)
Only USO 06 could be said to be relatively weak and even then it had fed v in-form blake and roddick.

Also Murray has been better at Wim than at AO anyways.

 

[abmk]

Look I don’t really enjoy Abmk’s argument style either lol. But he almost never reacts that way to my opinions, perhaps bc I don’t argue in a disingenuous way and make false equivalencies?

I myself said Murray could win AO 06/AO 07.
I only objected to statement saying Murray would clean up at the AO

but disingenous hack @RF-18 straight up lied about what I said.

 

[Kralingen]

I myself said Murray could win AO 06/AO 07.
I only objected to statement saying Murray would clean up at the AO

but disingenous hack @RF-18 straight up lied about what I said.

I mean Agassi AO ‘03 even with the weak competition is one of the best HC runs in the past 30 years or so. To suggest that Murray ‘11 is beating him to me feels lolworthy so I was with you on that tbh

 

[Nadal_Django]

1. Berdych AO 12 QF vs Federer AO 12 SF
2. Djokovic AO 08 SF vs Nadal AO 12 QF
3. Blake USO 05 QF vs Federer USO 15 F
4. Roddick Wim 04 final vs Cllic USO 14 F ( on the fast HC and grass)
5. Djokovic Wim 13 SF vs Nadal Wim 18 SF
6. Agassi AO 04 SF vs Djokovic AO 20 SF

Who wins these matchups?

1. Federer
2. Nadal
3.
4. Cilic
5. Nadal
6. Djokovic

 

[RF-18]

Yeah, Agassi's draw was very easy, but he was dominant at that AO, you utter muppet of a clown. clearly better than Murray at any AO. Even Agassi at AO 04 who was a little worse than in AO 03 was clearly better than any Murray at the AO.
but then your sole agenda is to pump up djokovic and his competition, so you spread BS nonsense.

this is you, absolute muppet of a clown.

You are so quick to call bad competition on djokovic and others how that makes them look better than they are and then when it suits your agenda you pump Agassis level in wich his draw was the worst in mankind? Worse than anything this so called weak era you call has ever produced. I'm just exposing your hypocrisy
The only muppet here is you ahahaha

 

[RS]

1. Federer
2. Nadal
3.
4. Cilic
5. Nadal
6. Djokovic

Have you seen Agassi-Blake USO 05 SF? Better match than the USO 15 F imo.

 

[RS]

Many non popular matches too, even in 2006 which is supposed to be his best year, and result wise it is, but watching some earlier rounds matches he won, i just get the feeling that there i saw some of the worst shots i ever seen from him, i feel that he plays much better today, more touch, smarter shots, craftier... he is just some steps slower and doesnt have the same pace but every other thing seems better to me, like in 2017, he played amazing that year, its true that in his peak years he played many more matches per year, so its normal that in many of them he wasnt so inspired

Could you pick out the matches were Federer was subpar and playing really badly in 2006 compared to later years ?

I think 2017 Federer skippedn clay events and have lots of close matches as well. I remember Fed struggling the the YEC and the summer after Wim and in other matches in 2017. What slams did Federer play better in 2017 compared to 2006?

 

[Nadal_Django]

You are so quick to call bad competition on djokovic and how that makes them look better than they are and then when it suits your agenda you pump Agassis level in wich his draw was the worst in mankind? I'm just exposing ypur hypocrisy
.The only muppet here is you ahahaha

I never understood why mods are allowing this guy to deliver insults, after insults after insults towards other posters just because they have different opinions on "Peak Fed", the whole 2003-07 era, and Federer in general. And all this while other people are being banned for way less than that.

I understand that he is an very very angry fanboy right now since his biggest idol isn't going to end up as a Goat, after so many years of his idol being in the poll position. I understand also that he needs a daily dosage of copium by propelling his idol's mythical peak into inhuman proportions and dimensions. I can understand all that... But still stop with the insults, the slurs and the cursing fgs and show some respect to other people opinions, jeez...

 

[Nadal_Django]

Have you seen Agassi-Blake USO 05 SF? Better match than the USO 15 F imo.

Yes I've seen. No way those two guys would take a set out of 2015 Fed.

 

[RS]

Yes I've seen. No way those two guys would take a set out of 2015 Fed.

Agassi took a set of 2005 Federer and kept it competitive for 3 sets. Unless you think 2015 Fed was playing better than 2005 Federer. Anyway not talking about who wins H2H just talking about the quality of the matches.

 

[Slicehand]

Could you pick out the matches were Federer was subpar and playing really badly in 2006 compared to later years ?

I think 2017 Federer skippedn clay events and have lots of close matches as well. I remember Fed struggling the the YEC and the summer after Wim and in other matches in 2017. What slams did Federer play better in 2017 compared to 2006?

i wasnt talking about the slams really, more like earlier rounds of minor tournaments, i dont know, take halle for example, it was his peak and he had some very difficult matches, even against rochus, or cincinnati, that match against murray is one of the worst ive seen from him, but then again, i think its normal due to all the matches he played, he made a lot of finals and played a lot of tennis, and its true that after wimbledon in 2017, his level dropped, he just seemed more passive to me in 2006 compared to 2017, where he was playing agressive all the time, in 2006 it seemed that he knew he was so superior that he went into the matches much slower, like just trying to groove his strokes and more passive in general