Re: "up and over" - topspin serve

[Gymrat]

On the topspin serve explanation, I don't get the part about brushing "up and over" the ball from 6 to 12.

Specifically, the "over" part confuses me: When the ball is thrown above your head, you're naturally going to strike "up" at 6 o'clock (the ball only stays on your racket for a fraction of a second - so how do we get it to 12?) - I'm basically brushing from 6 to the middle of the clock, because I don't know how get as much tennis ball surface on the racket strings.


Does the "over" mean supinating your wrist or forearm a little to get the racket to curve upward to 12? - or what am I missing here?

 

[Nonentity]

just means your racket is going up through the ball, don't think of the racket hitting the ball from 6 to 12, think of the racket traveling from 6 to 12, with the ball as the middle point of the "clock". Your racket is going to contact the back of the ball, its your swing path that changes the characteristic of the shot.

 

[Gymrat]

My swing path has been from 6 to 12 with no results.

There has to be a reason why most explanations include "up and over" or "up and out".

The "over" or "out" must serve some purpose - then why include it. It has to indicate some extra element in the swing.

Can anyone shed any light?

 

[trachsel]

no. just like nonentity said, the "6 to 12" just indicates the the path of the racketface. it doesnt mean that your strings need to be making contact with the ball from the very bottom of it to the very top.

 

[Nonentity]

in fact i think you havent had results because you are hitting the bottom or the top of the ball. hit the back of the ball with the racket face going 6 to 12, aka straight up and forward.

 

[Claudius]

Forget the clock. If you want to hit a good kick serve, swing your racquet as if you're trying to throw the racquet out of the court. This is the best way to achieve the correct motion.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Lots of tennis terminology is outdated, from the days before slow-motions cameras and scientific studies of the physics of the game.

"Brushing the ball", hitting the "outside" of the ball, "rolling" over the ball-- are all such terms.

So,basically, forget them and just do what needs to be done to make the ball do what it has to do.

First, lets think of hitting a topspin groundstroke. You get the topspin from driving through the ball from low to high and in the direction you want it to go. The greater the angle of low to high, the less forward momentum and more spin. Less angle equals more forward speed and less spin. Basically it is the same with the serve.

Think of the serve as a sort of "sideways" groundstroke.

Now, hold a ball up to the center of the strings of your racket. Notice the strings touch the "dead-center" of the ball. No matter how you turn to ball- the strings always touch its center. So don't wory about all that vague and confusing terminology.

So, now, when you are trying to put topspin on the ball just imagine how the ball needs to spin and the path your racket must travel through the ball (low to high) in order to make that happen.

Toss the ball up so that, if it fell, it it would hit your forehead. Go ahead let it hit your forehead- if it does, you are on the right track. Next, you want to drive your racket through the ball at a pretty steep angle. Think- lots of topspin, not much forward velocity. It will feel almost like you are doing a military salute with your racket.

Once you get the feel of creating the topspin, you can vary the amount of spin and speed to create the shot you want (just like in a groundstroke). Eventually, you will learn to place the ball.

It will help if you have someone there who is good at this serve to help you, at least to show you what the serve looks like.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Lots of tennis terminology is outdated, from the days before slow-motions cameras and scientific studies of the physics of the game.

"Brushing the ball", hitting the "outside" of the ball, "rolling" over the ball-- are all such terms.

So,basically, forget them and just do what needs to be done to make the ball do what it has to do...

"Brushing the ball" and "hitting the outside of the ball" are still valid directives that make sense. Whether or not all such terms are completely accurate or not, the important thing is that they will often produce the desired results. Tennis coaches will sometimes use terms that they know are not completely accurate but do, however, elicit the response they seek.

One phrase that I do not normally use or particularly like is "snap the wrist". However, many coaches find this directive to be useful. I will sometimes resort to using this phrase for a few students in order to elicit a certain response, not because I believe the phrase is particularly accurate.

Quite often, I will get into the physics/science of shot-making when teaching and in these forums. However, this approach is not for everyone. For some it provides a clearer understanding, for others it is counterproductive.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The unfortunate thing is that nobody has yet come up with replacements for these terms- dubious mental images that seem to cause more confusion and poor results than good.

This could be the next big thing in instruction for someone who has the right combination of talents (not me).

Obviously, the person asking this question had problems, and at least a hundred others who have visited this site, so another way of explaining things may be in order.

Yes, "snap the wrist" is another good example.

 

[rec2000]

Forget the clock. If you want to hit a good kick serve, swing your racquet as if you're trying to throw the racquet out of the court. This is the best way to achieve the correct motion.

This also applies to a flat serve and a slice serve.

If you want to "kick" the ball (add topspin), then you need a kick serve.

You get this serve by:
1. tossing the ball more to your left (if you are a righty)
2. leaning further back on the takeback
3. contacting the ball as the racquet head is still moving upward. This would be the 9 'o clock on the clock example (between 6 and 12).

It's called a kick serve because players usually end up kicking a leg out at the end of the stroke for balance.

 

[charliefedererer]

I'll bet your not leaning back with an arched back near enough as you are swinging from the low point of your racquet drop up to the contact point. Only in this position can you produce basically the same low to high swing patten that you do on a topspin groundstroke. (I'll be you are swinging standing too vertically straight.)
Look at the bent upper body of all the pros in the last thirty seconds of the following video: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/serve-fundamentals/leg-push/
Just imagine going from that position and sweeping your raquet up and forward to maximize topspin.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Leaning back or laying the upper body back is ok advice. However, I would not suggest employing a whole lotta back arch -- not good for the lower back. Bend the knees and get the heels off the ground -- this will allow ample leaning w/o too much arching.

<--- select this image

 

[mucat]

<--- select this image

This spells knee pains for older folks here Not that it's not the right technique.

 

[Vg12th]

Think of the serve as a sort of "sideways" groundstroke.
[...]
Once you get the feel of creating the topspin, you can vary the amount of spin and speed to create the shot you want (just like in a groundstroke). Eventually, you will learn to place the ball.

My topspin practice is simply throwing the ball up and as it falls down I just swing upwards to get the topspin feel. Very much like the FYB video shows it. I'm unsure how to transition from this to giving it speed and putting form.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

This spells knee pains for older folks here Not that it's not the right technique.

I'm an older folk with knee issues. This does not bother me at all.

 

[GuyClinch]

You can create topspin with no arch at all. The key is keeping your shoulders sideways. The arch is for a kicker serve..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9yWA9Ho73M

As for "topspin" I really think people overcomplicate this. Just swing straight up at the ball with the racquet still on edge. For flat your swinging OUT to the ball and hitting it square in the back. As for poster who isnt' getting results what exactly is your ball doing?

 

[Bud]

This also applies to a flat serve and a slice serve.

If you want to "kick" the ball (add topspin), then you need a kick serve.

You get this serve by:
1. tossing the ball more to your left (if you are a righty)
2. leaning further back on the takeback
3. contacting the ball as the racquet head is still moving upward. This would be the 9 'o clock on the clock example (between 6 and 12).

It's called a kick serve because players usually end up kicking a leg out at the end of the stroke for balance.

I always heard it got its name because the topspin causes the ball to kick up off the court on contact.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ I concur.

...

It's called a kick serve because players usually end up kicking a leg out at the end of the stroke for balance.

Don't think so. With an older style of topspin and kick serves, players would often kick the back leg way off to the side. You still see this with older players and many non-pros.

Modern, elite servers do not usually have this pronounced leg kick to the side. For kick serves, these servers kick the back leg backward rather than to the side as they would for other types of serves. However, with some of these elite servers, you may detect a slight leg movement to the side before the leg kicks backward when performing a kick serve.