Record for highest ATP points?

B

Bablu

Banned
I think it's probably going to be from amongst the players who have won 3 out of 4 consecutive slams but I was wondering which player has the record for the highest ATP Points.

It might be hard to make a fair comparison though between generations as we have to account for the changes in the points system that have taken place across the years.
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
Bablu said:
I think it's probably going to be from amongst the players who have won 3 out of 4 consecutive slams but I was wondering which player has the record for the highest ATP Points.

It might be hard to make a fair comparison though between generations as we have to account for the changes in the points system that have taken place across the years.
Click to expand...

In absolute terms, it's Rafa, who had well over 13000 RP going into last year's Roland Garros.

It's not really possible to compare eras as they award points on different bases.
 
B

bolo

G.O.A.T.
Bablu said:
I think it's probably going to be from amongst the players who have won 3 out of 4 consecutive slams but I was wondering which player has the record for the highest ATP Points.

It might be hard to make a fair comparison though between generations as we have to account for the changes in the points system that have taken place across the years.
Click to expand...

Interesting question, I don't know. But I would guess either fed's or mcenroe's years where they only had 3-4 losses for the entire season.
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
batz said:
In absolute terms, it's Rafa, who had well over 13000 RP going into last year's Roland Garros.

It's not really possible to compare eras as they award points on different bases.
Click to expand...

Nadal had 14,960 ranking points when the 2009 French Open started. Federer had 10,470 ranking points at the same time.
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
Mustard said:
Nadal had 14,960 ranking points when the 2009 French Open started. Federer had 10,470 ranking points at the same time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for digging out the numbers mate - nearly 15K RP for Rafa - better than I thought.
 
J

Jchurch

Guest
Didn't Federer have north of 7500 ranking points before they doubled the point values?
 
TheMusicLover

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
bolo said:
Interesting question, I don't know. But I would guess either fed's or mcenroe's years where they only had 3-4 losses for the entire season.
Click to expand...

Yep. They changed the points count entirely a couple of years ago, doubling the points for a final victory (but not for the rest of victories, in fact, reaching a SF or QF gains a player relatively less points nowadays). As such, Fed's 8000+ points in - I think it was 2006 - would mean over 16000 nowadays.
I don't know about the points count back in JohnnyMac's days (too long ago, lost track of the chances in those days), would be nice if someone could enlighten me about that.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
Mustard said:
Nadal had 14,960 ranking points when the 2009 French Open started. Federer had 10,470 ranking points at the same time.
Click to expand...

Almost 15k wow. I think the difference is due to Nadal's dominance in the clay masters , his general consistency in other events ( he rarely loses before semis) and the fact that he plays a lot of events.

Fed had a pretty bad late half of 2009 if I remember right. Of course the year when Fed went 82-5 or something, he must have had a scary number of points. Unless he didn't play as many tournaments.

I think one interesting thing to notice is the points spread between the leader and the rest. Last year around this time, the top 4 were bunched closer. This year it seems like Nadal is far away ahead of the rest. And he is almost certain to gain ranking points over the next few months given how bad his 2009 was.
 
aphex

aphex

Banned
batz said:
In absolute terms, it's Rafa, who had well over 13000 RP going into last year's Roland Garros.

It's not really possible to compare eras as they award points on different bases.
Click to expand...

nonsense. federer had about 8500 points in '06/'07. i.e. about 17000 in today's points.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
TheMusicLover said:
Yep. They changed the points count entirely a couple of years ago, doubling the points for a final victory (but not for the rest of victories, in fact, reaching a SF or QF gains a player relatively less points nowadays). As such, Fed's 8000+ points in - I think it was 2006 - would mean over 16000 nowadays.
I don't know about the points count back in JohnnyMac's days (too long ago, lost track of the chances in those days), would be nice if someone could enlighten me about that.
Click to expand...

So I looked at Fed's 2006 in terms of today's points and it came to 14995, just a bit better than Rafa's year.
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
aphex said:
nonsense. federer had about 8500 points in '06/'07. i.e. about 17000 in today's points.
Click to expand...

Really? To get 8500 points in 06/07 a player would have to win the equivelant of 4 slams and 9 MS in a 12 month period. I know Roger was dominant, but was he that dominant?
 
aphex

aphex

Banned
batz said:
Really? To get 8500 points in 06/07 a player would have to win the equivelant of 4 slams and 9 MS in a 12 month period. I know Roger was dominant, but was he that dominant?
Click to expand...


owl-orly.jpg



http://www.tennis28.com/rankings/point_totals_player.html
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
Bablu said:
So I looked at Fed's 2006 in terms of today's points and it came to 14995, just a bit better than Rafa's year.
Click to expand...

You're not comparing like with like. Rafa's total uses a basis that gives fewer points for finals/semis/qfs etc. than the basis used for Roger's total. As an e.g. an MS semi in 06 got a player 225 points with winner getting 500. An MS semi now gets 360 points, with the winner getting 1000.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
batz said:
You're not comparing like with like. Rafa's total uses a basis that gives fewer points for finals/semis/qfs etc. than the basis used for Roger's total. As an e.g. an MS semi in 06 got a player 225 points with winner getting 500. An MS semi now gets 360 points, with the winner getting 1000.
Click to expand...

But that's what I did. I looked at Fed's tournament results in 2006 and awarded him points based on the current system.
 
Don't Let It Bounce

Don't Let It Bounce

Hall of Fame
If someone has access to the numbers, it would be cool to compare eras by standardizing the points system: maybe by comparing a dominant player's total to the average/median for that year, or the average/median of the top 100.

I remember Lendl used to dominate the prize money rankings even before he started winning majors because he played so many tournaments; I bet he'd do well in that sort of comparison.
 
L

luvly

Professional
batz said:
Really? To get 8500 points in 06/07 a player would have to win the equivelant of 4 slams and 9 MS in a 12 month period. I know Roger was dominant, but was he that dominant?
Click to expand...

in 2006 federer made the final 16 times, he played 17 events....he won 12 events. he was in fact that dominant
 
TheMusicLover

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
Bablu said:
But that's what I did. I looked at Fed's tournament results in 2006 and awarded him points based on the current system.
Click to expand...

Yep, I see no reason why this would be impossible. It's a matter of 'doing the maths'. Well I know that is difficult for some... ;)
Fed's still the leader in this, but it won't surprise me at all if Rafa would take over during the coming months, seeing as that he's got lots of points to pick up if he does well. Fed... not so much, he's defending around/over 2500 points from the US HC swing alone.
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
Bablu said:
But that's what I did. I looked at Fed's tournament results in 2006 and awarded him points based on the current system.
Click to expand...

Fair enough mate - i'm happy to stand corrected. Roger was something else that season.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
batz said:
Fair enough mate - i'm happy to stand corrected. Roger was something else that season.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he was. He only lost 5 times that year, 4 of those losses were finals losses to Nadal and only one was a non-final loss( to Murray)

Despite that though, the points are awfully close. 14960 vs 14995! Makes it hard for either camp to argue that their player had a much more dominant 1 yr period.
 
OKUSA

OKUSA

Hall of Fame
batz said:
If that number is correct then that's quite incredible. Because it was 1000 points for a slam and 500 points for a masters. Like i said, to get to 8500 is the equivelant of winning all the slams and all the masters series in a 12 month period.
Click to expand...

you're forgetting tennis masters cup and 6 other events (4 500's and 2 250's or whatever they were at the time)
 
batz

batz

G.O.A.T.
OKUSA said:
you're forgetting tennis masters cup and 6 other events (4 500's and 2 250's or whatever they were at the time)
Click to expand...

No I'm not mate - that's why I said it was the equivelant of - I appreciate that the 8500 could be achieved in other ways.
 
L

luvly

Professional
Bablu said:
Actually, I just checked the ATP site

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=11.05.2009&c=&r=1#

Nadal at his highest had 15360 points (on 11th May 2009)!

It will be harder to get the same data on Fed as we would have to adjust the numbers but let me see if I can pull that up.
Click to expand...

you actually can not look at the new rankings as a total in and of itself until the end of 2009. the rankings points that were earned in 2008 were simple doubled. thus on may 11, 2009 half of rafa's points were in the new system and the other half were simply twice thier previous value which is not the actual value for some on those points so you would have to figure out which events were in that total and recalculate them
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
I think it's probably going to be from amongst the players who have won 3 out of 4 consecutive slams but I was wondering which player has the record for the highest ATP Points.

It might be hard to make a fair comparison though between generations as we have to account for the changes in the points system that have taken place across the years.
Click to expand...
Federer has accrued the most amount of points at any one time, the equivalent of about 16000 points today. He also has the record for the biggest gap between a No.1 and No.2 at almost double the points. The latter is mentioned in the link at the bottom.

Regarding point totals for 2009, at the end of 2008, all points were doubled to help phase in the new system through 2009. This actually inflated figures for most of 2009 above what would ordinarily be awarded under a fully phased in system because only the points for winning a tournament would be doubled once the system was in place. The points from the other rounds would only increase by between 50-80 odd percent. By the end of 2009 the point totals would be accurate, but not before. It was done this way to prevent rankings jumping all over the place after a change in the emphasis of points won for different rounds. Subsequently, all total ranking points for 2009, apart from at the end of the season, are inflated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_records#ATP_Rankings
 
B

Bablu

Banned
I'm not sure where people are coming up with these 16k figures.

Also I forgot about the points doubling that was done for 2009, I recalculated Nadal's points across a consistent system and it turns out to be quite a bit less than the 15360 I earlier quoted.

The new number is 13895.

So Fed's dominant yr was a good 1k more than Nadal's dominant yr.
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
Source for figure?
Click to expand...
In 2006, Federer made at least the final of every tournament he entered, with the exception of one, and won 3 of 4 Slams while making the final of the other, so he had a very high point count of 8370 at the end of the season. Multiplied by 2, that's 16740, which is roughly what it would be today, but more around the 16000 mark since he did not win every event he was a finalist in (he did win 12 though). Nadal was ranked No.2 and had 4470 points. Link of standings below.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=18.12.2006&c=&r=1#
 
B

Bablu

Banned
above bored said:
In 2006, Federer made at least the final of every tournament he entered, with the exception of one, and won 3 of 4 Slams while making the final of the other, so he had a very high point count of 8370 at the end of the season. Multiplied by 2, that's 16740, which is roughly what it would be today, but more around the 16000 mark since he did not win every event he was a finalist in (he did win 12 though). Nadal was ranked No.2 and had 4470 points. Link of standings below.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=18.12.2006&c=&r=1#
Click to expand...

You are posted estimated figures, I actually CALCULATED the points for Federer in 2006 based on the current system and it came to 14995.

Aside from the fact that non finals are not doubled, there are also some tournaments which did not double their points . For e.g Fed was award 250 pts for Basel , but Basel still remains a 250, so you can't double that to 500.


Overall though, I'm starting to realize that ATP points might be a little biased by which tournaments you played etc and win-loss ( and to whom) is probably a better indicator. In that regard, Fed ( 5 losses , 4 in finals)and JMac's yr ( 4 losses) are better than Nadal's year (7 losses, many non finals).
 
B

Bablu

Banned
Bablu said:
You are posted estimated figures, I actually CALCULATED the points for Federer in 2006 based on the current system and it came to 14995.

Aside from the fact that non finals are not doubled, there are also some tournaments which did not double their points . For e.g Fed was award 250 pts for Basel , but Basel still remains a 250, so you can't double that to 500.


Overall though, I'm starting to realize that ATP points might be a little biased by which tournaments you played etc and win-loss ( and to whom) is probably a better indicator. In that regard, Fed ( 5 losses , 4 in finals)and JMac's yr ( 4 losses) are better than Nadal's year (7 losses, many non finals).
Click to expand...

Crap , so many grammar typos, sucks that I can't edit my post!
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
You are posted estimated figures, I actually CALCULATED the points for Federer in 2006 based on the current system and it came to 14995.

Aside from the fact that non finals are not doubled, there are also some tournaments which did not double their points . For e.g Fed was award 250 pts for Basel , but Basel still remains a 250, so you can't double that to 500.


Overall though, I'm starting to realize that ATP points might be a little biased by which tournaments you played etc and win-loss ( and to whom) is probably a better indicator. In that regard, Fed ( 5 losses , 4 in finals)and JMac's yr ( 4 losses) are better than Nadal's year (7 losses, many non finals).
Click to expand...
Yes, mine is an estimate. I have not calculated it exactly. Basel is a 500 event though.
 
aphex

aphex

Banned
Bablu said:
Ah my bad. Yes Basel is 500 , Halle is the one that didn't really change in points.

So I should add 250 to Fed's tally.

New number is 15245!
Click to expand...

obviously Halle counts for 500 in the adjusted rankings.

in 2006, it had the value of 1/4 slam, i.e. 250 points, or in today's system 1/4 of 2000 points, i.e. 500 points.

the fact that it was demoted after 2006, is irrelevant.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
aphex said:
obviously Halle counts for 500 in the adjusted rankings.

in 2006, it had the value of 1/4 slam, i.e. 250 points, or in today's system 1/4 of 2000 points, i.e. 500 points.

the fact that it was demoted after 2006, is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

I did the same for Nadal's queens win though , so the relative difference doesn't change.
 
C

canuckfan

Semi-Pro
Highest points ever was fed sometime around 2006. His win-loss record and tournament results were ridiculous, and clearly above anyone else. If your math does not agree, your math is wrong. It's that simple.
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
Ah my bad. Yes Basel is 500 , Halle is the one that didn't really change in points.

So I should add 250 to Fed's tally.

New number is 15245!
Click to expand...
Decided to calculate it. You actually get 15710. This is close to the 16000 mentioned. Also bear in mind this is without giving Doha or Halle their equivalent values from 2006. This total is based solely on their values today.

If you account for their relative values in 2006, you get at least 15960 or over 16000. It is not certain because Halle was worth 225 points, not 250. Doha, however, was worth 250, so that could be doubled if we were to keep things relative. International Series events went 300, 250, 225, 200, 175, so Halle was not as low as the lowest IS events which got bumped to 250 or at the high end which ended up as 500. They were in the middle. Still, at a calculated equivalent, Halle would be worth 450 points and take you to 16160.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
aphex said:
what difference?

title of the thread is "record for highest atp points"...
Click to expand...

Yes but since most of this thread has been spent doing a comparison between Fed and Nadal, all that matters is the difference. Either way I already mentioned that Fed is at least 1k ahead.
 
B

Bablu

Banned
above bored said:
Decided to calculate it. You actually get 15710. This is close to the 16000 mentioned. Also bear in mind this is without giving Doha or Halle their equivalent values from 2006. This total is based solely on their values today.

If you account for their relative values in 2006, you get at least 15960 or over 16000. It is not certain because Halle was worth 225 points, not 250. Doha, however, was worth 250, so that could be doubled if we were to keep things relative. International Series events went 300, 250, 225, 200, 175, so Halle was not as low as the lowest IS events which got bumped to 250 or at the high end which ended up as 500. They were in the middle. Still, at a calculated equivalent, Halle would be worth 450 points and take you to 16160.
Click to expand...


Doha - 250(discussable)
AO - 2000
Dubai - 300
IW - 1000
Miami - 1000
Monte Carlo - 600
Rome - 600
RG - 1200
Halle - 250(discussable)
Wimbledon - 2000
Canada - 1000
Cincy - 45
US open - 2000
Tokyo - 500
Madrid - 1000
Basel - 500
China - 1000

This adds up to 15245 .

The only points of contention are Doha and Halle. But to calculate Nadal's tally of 13895 also, Doha counted as a 250 and he played Queens (equivalent to Halle ) which I counted as a 250.

So one point I'm making is that the difference remains the same that I stated ( 15245 vs 13895). You could bump both of their tally though by 500 if you want. MY reason for not bumping up the total is because in the earlier system the 125 did not exist . The 225 was usually the lowest tournament people played .If you double everything, that effectively means that Fed never had to playa 250, he only played higher tournaments. But players in todays game play at least 1 or 2 250s. They don't have the opportunity to only play 500's and above.
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
Doha - 250(discussable)
AO - 2000
Dubai - 300
IW - 1000
Miami - 1000
Monte Carlo - 600
Rome - 600
RG - 1200
Halle - 250(discussable)
Wimbledon - 2000
Canada - 1000
Cincy - 45
US open - 2000
Tokyo - 500
Madrid - 1000
Basel - 500
China - 1000

This adds up to 15245 .

The only points of contention are Doha and Halle. But to calculate Nadal's tally of 13895 also, Doha counted as a 250 and he played Queens (equivalent to Halle ) which I counted as a 250.

So one point I'm making is that the difference remains the same that I stated ( 15245 vs 13895). You could bump both of their tally though by 500 if you want. MY reason for not bumping up the total is because in the earlier system the 125 did not exist . The 225 was usually the lowest tournament people played .If you double everything, that effectively means that Fed never had to playa 250, he only played higher tournaments. But players in todays game play at least 1 or 2 250s. They don't have the opportunity to only play 500's and above.
Click to expand...
Shanghai (China) is 1500 because it's the World Championships and Federer got the maximum amount of points by winning all of his round robin matches. That makes the total 15745. I actually said 15710 thinking Federer made the 2nd round of Cincinnati, not the 3rd. So it's 15745 under the lowest possible calculation, 255 short of 16000. As for the record for highest ATP points, as per the original question, we get in excess of 16000 with the equivalent method.
 
aphex

aphex

Banned
above bored said:
Decided to calculate it. You actually get 15710. This is close to the 16000 mentioned. Also bear in mind this is without giving Doha or Halle their equivalent values from 2006. This total is based solely on their values today.

If you account for their relative values in 2006, you get at least 15960 or over 16000. It is not certain because Halle was worth 225 points, not 250. Doha, however, was worth 250, so that could be doubled if we were to keep things relative. International Series events went 300, 250, 225, 200, 175, so Halle was not as low as the lowest IS events which got bumped to 250 or at the high end which ended up as 500. They were in the middle. Still, at a calculated equivalent, Halle would be worth 450 points and take you to 16160.
Click to expand...

that's how it should be calculated...Halle as 450 today's points and Doha as 500 points.

in 2006, Federer didn't play doha and halle of 2010.
he played doha and halle of 2006, which in today's points are 450 and 500.
simple really.

in
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
Bablu said:
MY reason for not bumping up the total is because in the earlier system the 125 did not exist . The 225 was usually the lowest tournament people played .If you double everything, that effectively means that Fed never had to playa 250, he only played higher tournaments. But players in todays game play at least 1 or 2 250s. They don't have the opportunity to only play 500's and above.
Click to expand...
175 tournaments did exist. Adelaide was a 175 tournament. Now it's Brisbane and worth 250 points.
 
A

above bored

Semi-Pro
aphex said:
that's how it should be calculated...Halle as 450 today's points and Doha as 500 points.

in 2006, Federer didn't play doha and halle of 2010.
he played doha and halle of 2006, which in today's points are 450 and 500.
simple really.

in
Click to expand...
Either way, those who said Federer had the equivalent of about 16000 points were correct.
 
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