optic yellow
Legend
Huh? You said she was tense so she wasn't able to deploy the firepower right?
Respect for pusher please?
- Thread starter zaph
- Start date
3.5 pushers are good at using their opponent's power against them and many 3.5 big hitter think that they're a better player than a 3.5 pusher because they can hit so much harder, like the 4.0-4.5s would, but don't yet have the consistency of a 4.0-4.5. So, when the 3.5 big hitter gets destroyed by the 3.5 pusher, they get pissed. It's more like a game of rock-paper-scissors.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
If you hit hard without depth, you will lose to someone hitting slower with depth.
If you hit hard only to the middle of the court, you will lose to someone hitting slower who can target your weaker wing.
If you hit hard from well behind the baseline, you will lose to someone hitting slower from inside the court.
Depth, accuracy and court position are needed if you are an aggressive baseliner who wants to win against a consistent baseliner. In addition you need to know how to put away short balls with short angles or to open space for which you typically need a lot of topspin or slice spin. Or you need to know how to finish well at the net including with overheads.
If you hit hard only to the middle of the court, you will lose to someone hitting slower who can target your weaker wing.
If you hit hard from well behind the baseline, you will lose to someone hitting slower from inside the court.
Depth, accuracy and court position are needed if you are an aggressive baseliner who wants to win against a consistent baseliner. In addition you need to know how to put away short balls with short angles or to open space for which you typically need a lot of topspin or slice spin. Or you need to know how to finish well at the net including with overheads.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I feel like if the level is very similar and the surface is a hard court, some styles will prevail more often in singles.
Defensive BLs beat Aggressive BLrs
Aggressive BLrs beat Net Players
Net Players beat Consistent BLrs
Since there are no good net players or even aggressive BLrs with good shot tolerance at lower levels, the defensive baseliners feast on everyone. Shot tolerance is the wildcard - if you can play aggressively and consistently for your level, you will win a lot.
It is the circle of tennis life. I try to see what an opponent’s style is like early in a match and switch up my baseline aggression level and frequency of approaching the net accordingly.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
How do you hit hard without depth? What exactly is the hard part in this case?
If you hit hard from well behind the baseline, where does the hard part go that the ball ends up well inside the court for someone to hit?
It's hard for me to follow some of these physics or logics.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Hard means higher pace than your opponent as I used it in the earlier post. If you think it is not possible to hit a high pace shot and hit it to shallow depth or to hit a high pace shot from well behind the baseline, then you are the wrong audience for my posts. You use spin to control depth and trajectory whatever pace you are hitting at.How do you hit hard without depth? What exactly is the hard part in this case?
If you hit hard from well behind the baseline, where does the hard part go that the ball ends up well inside the court for someone to hit?
It's hard for me to follow some of these physics or logics.
In any case, I am not saying high pace in an objective sense (70mph?), but relative to the pace your opponent is hitting at whatever level it is.
You can hit a fast/powerful ball with lots of topspin that glides over the net and bounces short inside the service box. This is actually a great shot to aim at a double's net player, but is a weak shot in singles, because it will coast down into the strike zone of someone standing on the baseline, and they can do whatever they want with it. A better player can run in and smash it back hard and flat when it's at its peak.How do you hit hard without depth? What exactly is the hard part in this case?
If you hit hard from well behind the baseline, where does the hard part go that the ball ends up well inside the court for someone to hit?
It's hard for me to follow some of these physics or logics.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@socallefty
I think it should be like this:
(Good) Defensive BLs beat (Bad) Aggressive BLrs
(Good) Aggressive BLrs beat (Bad, slow) Net Players
(Good) Net Players beat (bad, slow) Consistent BLrs
I think it should be like this:
(Good) Defensive BLs beat (Bad) Aggressive BLrs
(Good) Aggressive BLrs beat (Bad, slow) Net Players
(Good) Net Players beat (bad, slow) Consistent BLrs
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
No, we are comparing hypothetical players of similar levels who are separated only by their style. Good players beat Bad players or Higher level players beat Lower level players - in that case, style doesn’t matter.
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From my experience, the difference between a typical 3.0 pusher and a 3.5 pusher is that the 3.5 pusher can handle huge pace/topspin, so long as they're stable and ready for it (not still busy recovering from the last shot). As a 3.0-3.5 big hitter, I can beat a 3.0 pusher simply by pounding huge forehands towards the center, and they'll give weak returns that I can just pound again and again if needed. A 3.5 pusher will consistently bounce that shot back to my backhand side or move me around with decent quality, so that I can't just keep pounding FHs at them. I would need to aim to move them side-to-side if I want to get weak returns out of a 3.5 pusher (which is still inconsistent for me to do with very powerful FHs).
A ball is much slower and more predictable after a bounce. What can a baseliner do with a loopy high ball that bounces deep? Charge at it with a swing volley? You're a 5.0+ if you can do that confidently. On the other hand, a fast ball with good topspin will penetrate deep and float down slowly, with reasonable pace. It's not going to blast itself into the back fence if it bounced inside the service line. If it has good pace/penetration, then it'll probably be in your strike zone as it flies over the baseline. If it doesn't have good pace, then it'll be shorter, which the baseliner will have plenty of time to respond with an approach shot.
Even if it's a sharp angle, if the baseliner was ready for it, they can still get to it, because the ball will lose alot of speed from the bounce. A dipping sharp angle shot is fairly low %, akin to trying to hit a baseline winner.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
If you can hit a short angle that can take your opponent past the singles sideline often, that is a good weapon. Usually you can hit that off shorter balls and not off neutral balls. But most short depth balls in rec tennis are not sharp angles. Players just try to hit hard without caring about trajectory or depth too often and pay the price if they don’t make their opponent move laterally and in addition give up court position vertically.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
@Xen @socallefty
ok time to refer to reality -- real games on Youtube!
Watch these older men. They are crafty, they play short and angle balls. Obviously fast pace also because they eventually get outpaced, out of reach. These points look tough.
Then, at 3:25, they play some depth, lobby balls in the middle. The rally looks easier to handle, until one of them got too greedy with depth and lost the point. That's another disadvantage with depth!
ok time to refer to reality -- real games on Youtube!
Watch these older men. They are crafty, they play short and angle balls. Obviously fast pace also because they eventually get outpaced, out of reach. These points look tough.
Then, at 3:25, they play some depth, lobby balls in the middle. The rally looks easier to handle, until one of them got too greedy with depth and lost the point. That's another disadvantage with depth!
They're mostly playing skidding slice shots, which have low net clearance and poor margin inside the baseline = very low % shot. It is a very strong shot if it does land in, but you can't hit it with unlimited power, the way you can a topspin groundstroke.@Xen @socallefty
ok time to refer to reality -- real games on Youtube!
Watch these older men. They are crafty, they play short and angle balls. Obviously fast pace also because they eventually get outpaced, out of reach. These points look tough.
Then, at 3:25, they play some depth, lobby balls in the middle. The rally looks easier to handle, until one of them got too greedy with depth and lost the point. That's another disadvantage with depth!
Playing short and angle balls is a valid strategy in tennis, but it's a departure from the modern meta power game. Those guys max out at around 4.0-level, and will get crushed by a 4.5 aggressive baseliner.
That shot that lost the point that started at 3:25 didn't have have nearly enough topspin. It was an UE on a defensive lob.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
We are talking about hard-hit, short shots vs slower, deep shots, where @socallefty hypothesizes that the latter is better and I am not convinced.
I am not talking about "hit it with unlimited power," and comparing with "a topspin groundstroke." You might be going offtopic here.
optic yellow
Legend
He mean hard hit short shots that aren't trying to use something else like angle or placement or junk spin to beat the opponent. Just the standard thoughtless oversafe rally ball basically.
optic yellow
Legend
Isn't a player like MEP peak "off-meta" performance? He's a weak 4.5. I haven't seen anyone higher level than that play mainly forehand slice.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
So all the sports analysts and commentators are wrong?
If you insist lol
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Generally speaking yes, although there are exceptions, say to the the bolded part: Again, you can hit through people at your level or lower.
Sometimes I feel this forum needs to be split into two. While there are some advanced players here who drop by just to see what the rest are saying, most here are lower level rec players just trying to be more consistent.
For that larger group a lot of this discussion is irrelevant since they are never going to be high level players. Before someone gets all annoyed and says we are always trying to get better, I am not disagreeing. The reality though is most in that 2nd group will never become high level players. If that group can hit consistent decent serves and shots with decent depth and power, that is the pinnacle that they are trying to attain. Forget switching styles depending upon the opponent or hitting with depth, pace and angles. I will take hitting decently with one style in the middle of the court or middle of the service box. even if that style doesn’t bother certain opponents.
For that larger group a lot of this discussion is irrelevant since they are never going to be high level players. Before someone gets all annoyed and says we are always trying to get better, I am not disagreeing. The reality though is most in that 2nd group will never become high level players. If that group can hit consistent decent serves and shots with decent depth and power, that is the pinnacle that they are trying to attain. Forget switching styles depending upon the opponent or hitting with depth, pace and angles. I will take hitting decently with one style in the middle of the court or middle of the service box. even if that style doesn’t bother certain opponents.
Jono123
Semi-Pro
Almost always and quite a few lower 4.0 as well.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
You should make this a thread, it would bring some good discussion and away from the "pusher" word, more like consistency is the theme, as a strat.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Abel serves above his level, IMO. Topsy turvy match.@Xen @socallefty
ok time to refer to reality -- real games on Youtube!
Watch these older men. They are crafty, they play short and angle balls. Obviously fast pace also because they eventually get outpaced, out of reach. These points look tough.
Then, at 3:25, they play some depth, lobby balls in the middle. The rally looks easier to handle, until one of them got too greedy with depth and lost the point. That's another disadvantage with depth!
How high of a high level player are you thinking? If you're thinking advanced amateur 4.0-5.0, then this is a perfect discussion, because the 3.5-4.0 pusher is the gatekeeper. IMO, "How do I beat pushers?" is the same as asking "How do I become an advanced amateur player?"
When the discussion changes to hitting with pace, depth, not hitting in the middle of the court but angling off the court, changing styles depending upon the opponent,…etc all those seem good for talk here but beyond the capabilities of most avg Joe rec players I have seen and beyond the capabilities of many of the forum member videos I have seen here.
Aren’t you a beginner yourself? Tell me when you get to the above stage what level do you think you will be? If you can do all of the above you are more a 5.0 or an ex 5.0 who has moved down due to age.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I always respect pushers and even play with one of them as my main partner. He's a pusher due to age - he is a former open player.
Some people call me a pusher as well but that's because I like to keep a rally going for a long time as a challenge.
Whatever style works for you the best.
On matches - if two pushers play each other, they may have to call it a tie if their court time ends and the score is 3-3.
Some people call me a pusher as well but that's because I like to keep a rally going for a long time as a challenge.
Whatever style works for you the best.
On matches - if two pushers play each other, they may have to call it a tie if their court time ends and the score is 3-3.
I believe @user92626 was talking about playing with angle in the context of slower/weaker backspin shots and changing styles more in the context of junkballing; not in the context of higher-level play, where angle and changing styles are all done with high topspin and pace.
optic yellow
Legend
I don't know if they're wrong or not because I don't know what they were saying. What were they saying?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I've got a video I'll get around to posting next week I think where I played an ex-open player who was really putting too much pressure on himself to be that, due to age. I did not respect him at all, but he turned the tables on me and out of frustration called me during the post match chat.
optic yellow
Legend
It's not a real game if it doesn't go to at least five deuces.
optic yellow
Legend
I'm probably low to mid 4.0 at best and these are all things I do. You don't have to be great to implement these concepts because they're just simple intuitive concepts.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
You contradict them (and me).
optic yellow
Legend
I have no idea what you're talking about because you haven't answered the question. Just tell me what they said.
I will believe it when I see it. Video please of a match. Not practice
As for simple and intuitive, everything is simple and intuitive in theory.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Read above, they say what I say about Rublev and Anisimova.
optic yellow
Legend
If that is what they and you say then there is no contradiction.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
What do you do if you've booked an hour of court time, bearing in mind that typical costs in my area are $25-$30 an hour and it can be a lot higher than that in many areas, and you have two pushers playing each other? It can be amusing to watch an ATP match that goes until 4 in the morning but that's not going to happen at your local courts.
optic yellow
Legend
Well I was of course joking, but had been thinking about playing at a public court where that is not so much an issue.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Typical etiquette is to play for an hour if people are waiting. There's also the matter of lighting.
It's winter in my area and it's 20 degrees outside so we're all playing indoors for at least another month.
optic yellow
Legend
Well of course in a case where people are not waiting. Most public courts in my area seem to have lighting now.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Do they leave the lights on all the time?
optic yellow
Legend
No but why would they?
5sets
Hall of Fame
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
It's hard to beat someone else at their own game because that's what they know and you likely know something else. If your skills are just so superior that you can win with different styles, then you're likely a much better player anyways.
In chess, there's the concept of armageddon. If it's a tie, players bid on time to play all of their moves. Winner gets the black pieces and wins if there is a draw or if he wins. So for tennis, have a tiebreak at a time instead of a score to prevent 10 hour matches.
In chess, there's the concept of armageddon. If it's a tie, players bid on time to play all of their moves. Winner gets the black pieces and wins if there is a draw or if he wins. So for tennis, have a tiebreak at a time instead of a score to prevent 10 hour matches.
