Safin vs Nadal - Roland Garros Final

[Cashman]

this is a misconception about safin, that he was a ballbasher gambling with his shots, that he just hit it hard hoping it goes in and most of the time it went out so his game itself is unsustainable. its complete BS. Lukas Rosol was that kind of player. he's a lousy shotmaker with no movement and no variety who hits the ball hard hoping it goes in. on the rare occasion it goes in he can beat the top players. thats why he never got out of the bottom of the rankings. safin for large periods of time not just for one tournament or one match could sustain that game. in 2000 alone he won seven titles and reached world no 1 which berdych and soderling never did. safin in addition to power, was an excellent mover, a great ROS, he had good (not great) touch and feel at net, and he had more variety than ppl like soderling or berdych. It is indeed injury and the fact that he was a headcase that held him back. he DID have all the tools to dominate the game. the fact that he reached no 1 and won two grand slams shows that he's not a rosol type player

Nah.

I already said he was better than Berdych, Soderling and Del Potro. His achievements clearly show that. But he had similar limitations and the idea that he could have dominated the game long term when he was so reliant on flat hitting and bullying people off the court is a complete fantasy.

Don’t know where you’re coming up with this Rosol nonsense, I never suggested those two were similar.

 

[arvind13]

Safin wouldn't beat Nadal at RG even if he was "playing his game" because he'd miss way too much over 5 sets. Keep in mind, even Safin playing well will make a lot of errors against Nadal on clay. I'm sure this shatters the idea that some people have that peak Safin was unplayable or some other such BS that I've heard many times since he beat Federer at AO 2005.

Safin doesn't have the movement to hang with Nadal on clay. There have been 2 guys in about 15 years that had/have legitimate chances against Nadal on clay. Federer in the early years (05 and 06 only), and Djokovic in a handful (11-14 and 19 specifically). Of course, it does Djokovic no good when he can't get through the draw or he touches the net when he's up a break in the 5th.

Soderling was a lightning strike that will never happen again, and the reasons for Djokovic's success against Nadal involve things that Safin can't do consistently. Like return the ball at Nadal's feet, and have a 2HBH on the stretch that can somewhat stand up to the Nadal FH. Plus, as mentioned above, Djokovic's movement is leagues about Safin even for as good a mover as Safin was at 6'4.

Saying Safin would have better chances than Djokovic is laughable.

safin could crush returns as well, and speaking of 2hbh, I would put safin's backhand right up there with djokovic or anyone else in the game. Djokovic's movement is better but not leagues above safin. Safin was a more powerful hitter than djokovic. Safin could do what Gulbis did to nadal at rome in that one set, except safin has the ability to do it over three sets if he's redlining.

 

[Steve0904]

yes but if safin is redlining, it probably won't go to five sets. he would do what soderling did to nadal. except peak safin was much better player than soderling in every way. so yes, nadal would win most of the time. safin is certainly not the favourite. even if he's focused and playing his game he would lose most of the time to nadal at french open final. but his game is more suited to beating nadal on clay than federer.

If Safin was redlining he might win a set. Just because Safin is better than Soderling doesn't mean he'd do what Soderling did. What Soderling did has happened once in 93? matches at RG.

And he's not more suited to beating Nadal than young Fed was. You're talking about a guy who made one SF at RG being more likely to beat Nadal than a guy who took him 5 sets and had MPs in Rome, and once won a 6-1 set against Nadal at RG. I doubt Safin does better.

 

[arvind13]

k

 

[Steve0904]

safin could crush returns as well, and speaking of 2hbh, I would put safin's backhand right up there with djokovic or anyone else in the game. Djokovic's movement is better but not leagues above safin. Safin was a more powerful hitter than djokovic. Safin could do what Gulbis did to nadal at rome in that one set, except safin has the ability to do it over three sets if he's redlining.

Safin could crush returns but nowhere near consistently enough. I don't think you quite understand what it takes to beat Nadal at RG, which is sad because he's been around long enough by now that everybody should have it figured out.

 

[arvind13]

Nah.

I already said he was better than Berdych, Soderling and Del Potro. His achievements clearly show that. But he had similar limitations and the idea that he could have dominated the game long term when he was so reliant on flat hitting and bullying people off the court is a complete fantasy.

Don’t know where you’re coming up with this Rosol nonsense, I never suggested those two were similar.

i didn't say you suggested rosol was similar. but basically your characterization of safin's game made him out to be a ball basher who just hits flat hard strokes. its like saying agassi's game was just ball bashing and flat hitting.

you're basically saying he played a lottery style game where he just hit the ball hard and deep hoping it would go in. and most of the time it went out. and the times it went in he would win. safin was way more than just power. he had variety, he had amazing technique on his groundstrokes, was an amazing mover period. not just for a 6'4 guy. his footwork was awesome. his ROS was solid. his net play was solid. and he had the talent to play that game over a long term. winning 7 titles in 2000 consistenly over a long time. then he got injured in 2001. lost all his momentum. played a very consistent AO 2002 and French Open 2002. got to the semis of both but had brainfarts in both. in 2003 was out the whole year due to injuries. in 2005 injured his knee was never the same again. nothing wrong with safin's game.

what got him was he was a headcase and his height probably contributed to lot of injures.

 

[Towny]

This peak late 2004-early 2005 Safin=GOAT stuff is old hat. Safin had a very high peak but never demonstrated it at RG. And even when he did demonstrate it, he did it by beating non-prime Sampras at the USO (albeit it stunning fashion) and by beating peak Federer in a match Fed very nearly won in 4 and would likely win 6/10 times were they to have repeated it. He wasn't unbeatable.

Nadal at RG is the closest thing to unbeatable in tennis. His peak at RG is the highest of any player on any surface. Even if Safin did a Soderling (never seen him demonstrate that at RG anyway), he wouldn't beat Nadal in a RG final. Taking Nadal out in an early round is different from beating a Nadal who managed to reach the final.

 

[Martin J]

Soderling and Safin don't play similar, Soderling hits much heavier and that's why he was able to hit through Nadal on clay. Safit hits very hard, but the pace without a high RPM value isn't particularly efficient on clay, and especially in best of five.

 

[cucio]

Safin is the racquet wrecking GOAT, he would have schooled Rafa 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 (racquets broken per set) on any surface.

 

[Cashman]

you're basically saying he played a lottery style game where he just hit the ball hard and deep hoping it would go in.

No, I’m not saying that at all.

You’re demonstrating pretty effectively what I am talking about in terms of people not understanding the limitations of his game style.

 

[arvind13]

No, I’m not saying that at all.

You’re demonstrating pretty effectively what I am talking about in terms of people not understanding the limitations of his game style.

i understand what you're saying. you're saying its his game itself was too high risk, he played with very little margin and that caused him to be iconsistent. i disagree. he had the talent to pull of his game consistently as he has shown for stretches of months. like when he won two masters in a row in 2004 for example. his game was consistent enough over two consecutive masters 1000, and even consistent enough through an entire season where he won seven titles including a grand slam. he just didn't have the mentality to pull off his game consistently. a federer like or hewitt like mentality.

 

[Pheasant]

Nobody that peaked in this century is beating an in-form Rafa at RG. Safin would have run out of gas against Rafa like Thiem did and the score line would be similar to Thiem vs Nadal at the 2019 RG final.
I think that an in-form 1990’s Kuerten would have a chance to sneak 1 win in 4 matches against an in-form Rafa. Kuerten was a truly a great clay court player at his peak.

 

[BringBackSV]

so roddick was objectively better hard court player than safin in terms of results. doest mean squat. safin when uninjured and focused had a much better game than roddick

Let's just stick to the topic at hand, which clay performances of Safins are you referencing?

 

[Red Rick]

Only one player is more overrated than sTaNiMaL

Mythical peak Safin.

Because Old Sampras and Young Fraud sh*t the bed vs him.

 

[BringBackSV]

yes but if safin is redlining, it probably won't go to five sets. he would do what soderling did to nadal. except peak safin was much better player than soderling in every way. so yes, nadal would win most of the time. safin is certainly not the favourite. even if he's focused and playing his game he would lose most of the time to nadal at french open final. but his game is more suited to beating nadal on clay than federer.

Yikes, keeps getting worse. Soderling beat Rafa once at RG and you are then infering that he exploited some hole in Rafas game instead of it being an anomaly. I don't even buy what you are saying if peak clay Safin plays that Rafa, let alone better versions of ralph. But again, which Safin clay run are you referencing? You've told us you are using one of the worst clay versions of Rafa but which clay performances of Safin did you mean?

 

[TheAssassin]

Only one player is more overrated than sTaNiMaL

Mythical peak Safin.

Because Old Sampras and Young Fraud sh*t the bed vs him.