Serve help

[ServeBot]

Looking to improve my serve. Any suggestions?

Thing I struggle with the most is my toss. I think my toss often drifts too far to the right and far in front for my flat and slice serves. For my kick serve, my toss will drift too far to the right and behind me. I also notice my body weight going forward, but it looks sometimes too much forward and not enough up to the ball?

I thought I was hitting the serve better on the far view. The toss at 2:50 on the "FarServeView" is what I think would be a better toss for my flat serve.

Thank you!

 

[Chas Tennis]

The serve at 10 seconds looks like a Waiter's Tray. Compare to high level serves frame-by-frame and observe if the racket face is facing the sky, as it starts to move toward the ball (at Big L Position). Search forum- Waiter's Tray Serve Chas

Compare two serves one above the other and single frame in this post. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. To select the video always use alt key + left mouse click otherwise the video starts playing. Select videos from similar camera angles for most accurate comparisons.

Please search and read the posts on the risks of shoulder impingement on the serve. Search threads posts on the forum: Ellenbecker "Rotator Cuff Injury" impingement Chas
This give a limitation of the upper arm angle to reduce the risk of impingement. Nearly all ATP servers are examples of good practice.

 

[ServeBot]

It looks like I am opening up the racquet head a frame or two earlier than the pros are.

 

[ServeBot]

Thanks, that HammerthatServe video was very helpful

 

[ServeBot]

Chas, how much extra pop on my serve could I expect if I'm able to correct this?

 

[Chas Tennis]

It looks like I am opening up the racquet head a frame or two earlier than the pros are.

Go frame-by-frame and list differences as you notice them.

On a bright sunny day move your camera much closer, but at a comfortable distance. Make sure that you see the waist or below to above the racket head. A smart phone holder and tripod are under $30 or someone can point the camera. There are shadows at the elbow that, with favorable lighting, will show internal shoulder rotation (ISR). If we can see the shadows at your elbow clearly, we might directly see internal shoulder rotation.
Search forum : internal shoulder rotation Chas

I have written many serve posts with illustrations, videos, references. I am very busy now and besides some of my old posts were more thoroughly put together.

The video pauses on certain positions for 4 seconds to read text. Play through pauses or hold down period key. Single frame through rest of video. Bone shadows at elbow show ISR.

 

[ServeBot]

I think this Isner slow mo serve really shows it incredibly well.

 

[Chas Tennis]

That is one of the best displays of elbow shadows & ISR that I've seen. Direct sunlight, late in the day, high definition video and a very fast shutter speed. Thanks for finding.

Many smartphones have a very fast automatic shutter speed, yours?

You should read the forum material on ISR and the linked references. It's very interesting, players were doing ISR (there's a clear 1919 video) but tennis experts didn't know until 1995.

I don't think that your elbow is doing that.

 

[ServeBot]

I was using a GoPro to record

 

[Dragy]

@ServeBot looking from afar, your overall serving looks quite nice - rhythm, posture, etc. which is good to have and to develop further from.
Biggest thing with your flat serving is that WT and swinging over your hand with open RF. Try to transform it to make your racquet face pivot more around than straight over, with your hand traveling slightly more to the side of where the ball is, not flat under. That will facilitate better edge-on approach and utilization of ISR for higher RHS.

I also don’t like where your back foot steps up to, but unless you footfault, you can live with it so far.

Again, your general sequencing and intensity looks good. I also didn’t see big toss issues - you hit lots of balls around 12, not somewhere to the right (1-2 o’clock).

 

[Chas Tennis]

I was using a GoPro to record

GoPros can have very fast shutter speeds. 240 fps is a good frame rate. They have a wide angle lens so get closer but consider distortions.

 

[ServeBot]

@ServeBot looking from afar, your overall serving looks quite nice - rhythm, posture, etc. which is good to have and to develop further from.
Biggest thing with your flat serving is that WT and swinging over your hand with open RF. Try to transform it to make your racquet face pivot more around than straight over, with your hand traveling slightly more to the side of where the ball is, not flat under. That will facilitate better edge-on approach and utilization of ISR for higher RHS.

I also don’t like where your back foot steps up to, but unless you footfault, you can live with it so far.

Again, your general sequencing and intensity looks good. I also didn’t see big toss issues - you hit lots of balls around 12, not somewhere to the right (1-2 o’clock).

Thanks Draghy agree on back foot. Going to work on removing WT

 

[ServeBot]

I tried the different technique this late morning. The serve felt incredibly different. This video was after hitting serves for 25 minutes.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Get a tripod and move the camera closer.

At 6:23 the side of your arm that is toward the camera is in shadow. The elbow shadows need light to form and show your ISR. Probably the other side of the court would have shown your arm in light.

If your serve was a good one, show thumbs up to the camera.

 

[ServeBot]

Ok, i'll try from the other side next time.

 

[ServeBot]

Just to be clear, when you guys are referring to ISR, you are talking about more pronation on the wrist when I strike the ball, no? That can only be achieved by coming edge on and to the side of the ball then pronating through it.

 

[ServeBot]

What Salzenstein shows here:

 

[Chas Tennis]

Just to be clear, when you guys are referring to ISR, you are talking about more pronation on the wrist when I strike the ball, no? That can only be achieved by coming edge on and to the side of the ball then pronating through it.

Do the searches when ISR was first mentioned. Google the term: internal shoulder rotation
There are named joint motions with Youtubes to show them and how to measure them. One point is tricky, joints can be used to indicate a motion or an angular position. Usually, the context tells you. Get a Youtube for how to measure ISR.

The word pronation is incorrectly used and some instructors even do not understand. Salzenstein is using the old incorrect tennis usage for pronation but knows. It confuses people and actually does harm misleading new people.

Get videos that show the defined joint motion - Pronation
Now the define joint motion - Internal Shoulder Rotation

When something is first noticed but not understood it is given a tennis term. But if by mistake, the person naming the thing burrows a defined joint term and names the motion, that can be very damaging.

Internal Shoulder Rotation is seen in a 1919 video. It was not properly recognized by tennis researchers until 1995. I'd call that damaging.

Pronate...............

This instructional video uses internal shoulder rotation.

 

[Dragy]

Just to be clear, when you guys are referring to ISR, you are talking about more pronation on the wrist when I strike the ball, no? That can only be achieved by coming edge on and to the side of the ball then pronating through it.

Pronation is quite a misused term. You get that rotation by all-arm rotation off the shoulder predominantly. Pronation is biomechanically is forearm-only twist with static upper arm. Pronation is quite weak.

You serves do look different here. I’d suggest staying more closed and directing the ball a bit towards your left for more efficient execution:

 

[ServeBot]

They felt a lot different. A few definitely got more "pop". Especially the few kick serves I hit. Need to fix the back foot issue and then get the timing and serve toss back in line. Will be hitting a lot of serves this week!

 

[Chas Tennis]

They felt a lot different. A few definitely got more "pop". Especially the few kick serves I hit. Need to fix the back foot issue and then get the timing and serve toss back in line. Will be hitting a lot of serves this week!

A warning, have you found the Ellenbecker information?

Wikipedia- Humerus

The actual ISR is not about this axis but there is a high spot on the humerus where tendons attach. According to some explanations, if you do ISR and that high spot rubs, it can cause impingement. Search the subject on the forum and Ellenbecker has a video "Rotator Cuff Injury" which is on the Tennis Resources website. The upper arm angle up should be limited for the serve.

 

[ServeBot]

I used to have impingement a year ago but it went away after I loosened up my swing and shoulder

 

[ServeBot]

What kind of MPH increase from going from WT to proper technique do you think I can achieve? 5-10% increase in serve speed? I did notice some crazy spin even when hitting flat serves. The built in topspin from the ISR should not only increase speed but also consistency and difficulty to return . I see how Sampras got so many RPM on his flat serves now.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a close up of the serve that shows there are two angular rotations:
1) The racket head closes as it moves forward. Closing means the highest part of the racket head moves faster that the lowest edge. I call this swinging.
2) Rotation from ISR. The farthest edge of the racket head moves faster than the closest edge.
The string are also going to the side, or laterally, not shown well here. I call this rotating. The slice and flat serves are impacted near the highest point that the racket will reach during the serve. But the kick serve is impacted while the racket head is still rising.

6000 fps with hardly any motion blur.

I don't see how ISR gives these spins. You can see lateral motion of the racket head in videos that could account for the spins, that makes sense. 240 fps shows the racket head before, during and after impact. You can see what is going on. But for the kick serve also the racket face appears to be closed by, say, 13-15 degrees just before impact, the top half of the ball is first impacted. Best to see clear videos.

It is a good idea to select a camera angle and stick with it so you get some experience. I like looking along the ball's trajectory and looking perpendicular to the ball's trajectory. Looking up the court's center line means that the exact same serve would look different for ad and deuce courts.

 

[ballmachineguy]

ServeBot, your serve is fine. Your only issue is when you are hitting into the ad court your body orientation suggests you are aiming for the court-to-your-left’s ad court. You basically have an open stance serve. Next time, line up like you are preparing to hit a wide ad court serve but hit wide in the deuce court. It should feel way more comfortable. Forget all of that waiters tray mumbo jumbo.

 

[Dragy]

What kind of MPH increase from going from WT to proper technique do you think I can achieve? 5-10% increase in serve speed? I did notice some crazy spin even when hitting flat serves. The built in topspin from the ISR should not only increase speed but also consistency and difficulty to return . I see how Sampras got so many RPM on his flat serves now.

10% easy.
Don’t stuck much with forcing ISR after you’ve got initial feeling. Just pull the handle and remember you want racquet head to come around your hand more than over… You still need relaxed whip-like feel for best results

 

[ServeBot]

ServeBot, your serve is fine. Your only issue is when you are hitting into the ad court your body orientation suggests you are aiming for the court-to-your-left’s ad court. You basically have an open stance serve. Next time, line up like you are preparing to hit a wide ad court serve but hit wide in the deuce court. It should feel way more comfortable. Forget all of that waiters tray mumbo jumbo.

I agree, the serve is "fine" but I want it to be great!

 

[ServeBot]

Worked on getting the back leg in the correct spot. Serve felt awkward and timing was off but pace seemed to be decent considering I didn't feel I was very explosive into the serve. I think if I can get the timing better and get more of my legs into it the pace will be back.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Worked on getting the back leg in the correct spot. Serve felt awkward and timing was off but pace seemed to be decent considering I didn't feel I was very explosive into the serve. I think if I can get the timing better and get more of my legs into it the pace will be back.

Not bothered to look at any of the other suggests so I don't know what you've been told already.

Not easy to tell from the distant side view, but it appears that your R elbow drops too low -- below the red shoulder tilt line in the images above. That is, you have a broken (tilt) line. This can result in timing problems and possibly limit racket head speed. You want the R elbow to be 90-90. That is, 90° of elbow flexion. And the upper arm should be up -- about 90° wrt the side of your body.

So, even though you might have changed your back foot position, you are still not getting very much upper torso coil for your trophy (and the start of your drop). However, for your uncoil, you are rotating too much to the left. If you get a better coil at the start, you should be able to drive upward and forward and end up going straight ahead rather than off to your left

Try lifting your tossing arm, closer to parallel to the baseline as Roger, Pete & elites others do. This should help you to achieve greater UT coil without having to toss the ball higher.

Before you start serving, try some shadow swings with this enhanced coil and then the land with your L foot pointing directly toward your target area. R leg should kick straight back when you land. It can subsequently swing forward as you are completing your follow-thru. But, again, that step should also be in the direction of the target area and not off to the L.

 

[ServeBot]

Serve at 0:39 seconds in looks correct in terms of pronation after contact.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I agree, the serve is "fine" but I want it to be great!

Yeah, it will be when you learn to line up correctly.

 

[ServeBot]

Yeah, it will be when you learn to line up correctly.

Fixed it!

 

[Tennease]

I like to keep my tossing arm straight from the start to the ball release.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Directions in post #2.

At 3:38 is an interesting serve. The serve hit well up on the fence.

It looks as if the label came out of your arm sleeve, it shows as a marker. That label might be or not be a reliable indicator of ISR, but it gives an example of what you are looking for to indicate ISR. Bone shadows are a more reliable indicator of ISR than the arm sleeve. Tape markers move with the flesh and skin so you can't trust them.

Compare your serve at 3:38 to a similar serve in the compilation and to the slice serve. Use most similar racket positions. I consider the bottom serve to be good form for a slice serve.

The racket head looks as it should so far pending frame-by-frame comparison to see if the elbow angle vs time is like the pros and other details. List all differences that you see.

I can't account for all variety out there or which is best. Pick a model server, platform stance or pin point, and find Youtube videos. That's your reference standard for technique. Record your serve from the same camera angle. I have experience estimating some angles with the camera view looking along the ball's trajectory usually from behind, and from the side, perpendicular to the ball's trajectory near impact.

If you have risk factors, such as your impingement pain from last year, they are very important.

 

[ServeBot]

Directions in post #2.

At 3:38 is an interesting serve. The serve hit well up on the fence.

It looks as if the label came out of your arm sleeve, it shows as a marker. That label might be or not be a reliable indicator of ISR, but it gives an example of what you are looking for to indicate ISR. Bone shadows are a more reliable indicator of ISR than the arm sleeve. Tape markers move with the flesh and skin so you can't trust them.

Compare your serve at 3:38 to a similar serve in the compilation and to the slice serve. Use most similar racket positions. I consider the bottom serve to be good form for a slice serve.

The racket head looks as it should so far pending frame-by-frame comparison to see if the elbow angle vs time is like the pros and other details. List all differences that you see.

I can't account for all variety out there or which is best. Pick a model server, platform stance or pin point, and find Youtube videos. That's your reference standard for technique. Record your serve from the same camera angle. I have experience estimating some angles with the camera view looking along the ball's trajectory usually from behind, and from the side, perpendicular to the ball's trajectory near impact.

If you have risk factors, such as your impingement pain from last year, they are very important.

Served again today but my forearm was very sore after a few serves. Definitely using new muscles which is a good sign.

 

[ServeBot]

Best serves 5:45 and 6:01

 

[Chas Tennis]

Served again today but my forearm was very sore after a few serves. Definitely using new muscles which is a good sign.

Your should always stop experimenting with any pain.

Do some video comparisons with your lastest videos. Find any differences with your angles vs the pros' angles. Especially look at your serve at 3:28.

Go through your latest serves and identify the differences vs a pro.

Post two identical videos of your serve one above the other.
Find differences between your own serves.

Compare your first serve in the video to the serve at 3:28.

5:45 & 6:01

In other words, give video comparisons some time - several hours - and see how you do. Learn how to get feedback by taking videos, evaluating videos and asking questions.

 

[ServeBot]

Wasn't pain, just soreness. Felt like when you haven't gone to the gym in awhile and then you go in and lift and the muscles are sore the day after.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Best serves 5:45 and 6:01

Still lined up way wrong. Your left shoulder is aimed toward the deuce court. Try pointing it to the net post on the right or even just a bit further. Keep it there until you launch up to the ball. Until you do that you will have inconsistency putting the ball in the box.

 

[ServeBot]

Still lined up way wrong. Your left shoulder is aimed toward the deuce court. Try pointing it to the net post on the right or even just a bit further. Keep it there until you launch up to the ball. Until you do that you will have inconsistency putting the ball in the box.

Thanks, will work on it

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@ServeBot

Not bothered to look at any of the other suggests so I don't know what you've been told already.

Not easy to tell from the distant side view, but it appears that your R elbow drops too low -- below the red shoulder tilt line in the images above. That is, you have a broken (tilt) line. This can result in timing problems and possibly limit racket head speed. You want the R elbow to be 90-90. That is, 90° of elbow flexion. And the upper arm should be up -- about 90° wrt the side of your body.

So, even though you might have changed your back foot position, you are still not getting very much upper torso coil for your trophy (and the start of your drop). However, for your uncoil, you are rotating too much to the left. If you get a better coil at the start, you should be able to drive upward and forward and end up going straight ahead rather than off to your left

Try lifting your tossing arm, closer to parallel to the baseline as Roger, Pete & elites others do. This should help you to achieve greater UT coil without having to toss the ball higher.

Before you start serving, try some shadow swings with this enhanced coil and then the land with your L foot pointing directly toward your target area. R leg should kick straight back when you land. It can subsequently swing forward as you are completing your follow-thru. But, again, that step should also be in the direction of the target area and not off to the L.

No thoughts (or Qs) on any of this?

 

[ServeBot]

@ServeBot

No thoughts (or Qs) on any of this?

I will try this as well.

 

[ServeBot]

I will try this as well.

I think my front shoulder facing the wrong direction and not getting enough coil go hand in hand

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I think my front shoulder facing the wrong direction and not getting enough coil go hand in hand

Yes, you start with your torso / chest slightly open toward the net. I strongly believe that the direction that you lift your tossing arm (toward service box) has a lot to do with this orientation. It looks to be about 75° wrt the baseline (or maybe between 60° to 75° wrt BL)

Players with a high toss will often perform quite a bit of coiling after releasing the ball. Your toss does not appear to be exceptionally high. You would probably be better off lifting the arm 30° to 45° wrt the BL (if not parallel to the BL).

R elbow for your trophy position appears to be fairly close to inline (with the shoulder tilt line) on some serves.. But, on others, the elbow appears to dip appreciably below the tilt line. This can result in timing issues and, possibly, reduced RHS

@ServeBot​

 

[ServeBot]

Yes, you start with your torso / chest slightly open toward the net. I strongly believe that the direction that you lift your tossing arm (toward service box) has a lot to do with this orientation. It looks to be about 75° wrt the baseline (or maybe between 60° to 75° wrt BL)

Players with a high toss will often perform quite a bit of coiling after releasing the ball. Your toss is not appear to be exceptionally high. You would probably be better off lifting the arm 30° to 45° wrt the BL (if not parallel to the BL).

R elbow for your trophy position appears to be fairly close to inline (with the shoulder tilt line). But, on some, the elbow appears to dip appreciably below the tilt line. This can result in timing issues and, possibly, reduced RHS

Ok, will work on it.

 

[ServeBot]

Hit with my regular hitting partner today and he thought I was getting a ton more spin on the serve vs before. Unfortunately forgot the GoPro, was very focused on getting the shoulder in the right location. Double faults an issue but serve still feels awkward. The new shoulder position changes the toss, will take some getting used to.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hit with my regular hitting partner today and he thought I was getting a ton more spin on the serve vs before. Unfortunately forgot the GoPro, was very focused on getting the shoulder in the right location. Double faults an issue but serve still feels awkward. The new shoulder position changes the toss, will take some getting used to.

Should be the other way around. Your new toss should be changing your upper torso orientation.

 

[ServeBot]

It felt very awkward with the new toss, I’ll have to record and see tomorrow

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It felt very awkward with the new toss, I’ll have to record and see tomorrow

Well then you might try a 45° lift / launch angle rather than 30° or less. Almost everyone who I've moved from a large angle (like 75°) to an angle of 45° or so have been able to make the transition. But many are not comfortable with a shallow angle of less than 30° wrt to BL.

 

[ServeBot]

Played today but the gopro turned off when I was closer to the camera. Hit these two serves at the end to see. What do you guys think?