Serve practice, need advice (videos)

[Pctopcool]

Hi there,

I've been posting my training videos in this forum in the past few years, and got tons of great advices, which helped me to progress from a completely beginner. As always, thanks for all the helps from this community. And I'm hoping to get some advice to improve my serve. Here is a recent video.

There are a couple things that I want to change.

1. The tossing arm doesn't fully extend and drops too early. Therefore, when loading, the two shoulders are more level, rather than tilted (left up).
2. During the racquet drop, the racquet face opens up, a.k.a. waiter's tray position. However, this is corrected once upswing begins, the racquet then moves on edge.

Possible solution I can think of:

My toss is on the lower side, barely a foot higher than the contact point. I guess this prevents me from doing full arm extension, body coiling, and leg loading? I tend to toss lower because it is usually more consistent, especially in a windy day. But should I change it? Another thing I'm thinking to try is to delay the right foot and arm motion after tossing. Right now, my tossing arm, hitting arm, and back leg all start at the same time. With higher toss, maybe I should toss first, and then move the right arm an leg? I guess it will probably mess up my timing for few months. But as long as it is the right thing to do. As to the waiter's tray racquet drop. I really have no idea how to correct it. It didn't happen in shadow swings, but it start happening as soon as the ball is in the equation. The worst part is that I couldn't even feel it. How bad is this issue? What should I do to fix it?

What do you think? Is there anything I should work on first? Any advice will be highly appreciated!

BTW, I include a video I posted here three years ago. I got tons of advices from that post, which I found really useful. It's really amazing to see how much help I got here to transform my game! Thank you all!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Flow / rhythm a bit off. Platform base starts too wide in new video. Might be smoother if base did not start this wide. Then you transition to a narrow platform (Roddick-esque). That part might be ok.

Not sure if pinpoint is your intention tho. Might consider starting with this narrow platform. Or a bit wider (but not as wide as you demonstrate here). Simplify this and other elements might be easier to address. Will have to watch this later to pick up more

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

A few different perspectives. Perhaps one will resonate with you.

There might good videos on this from Macci, Dougherty (The Serve Doctor) or the guys from Top Tennis Training. Just happened to come across these others first.

 

[Pctopcool]

A few different perspectives. Perhaps one will resonate with you.

https://youtu.be/wC5EoqT-8yE

There might good videos on this from Macci, Dougherty (The Serve Doctor) or the guys from Top Tennis Training. Just happened to come across these others first.

Thanks for your reply and the videos!
Yeah, pinpoint stance feels more natural to me, as it gives more momentum and a little bit extra flow. But apparently, my serve motion is not there yet. Interestingly, it seems platform stance is recommended by most coaches for beginners. Maybe I should try to explore that option? I'll check the videos, and search for the coaches you mentioned.
Thanks again!

 

[Dragy]

Not bad at all, I think you have some basic dynamics down. I also like what you think of it:
- Definitely try higher toss. Not much, but give yourself more time to smoothly enter the motion.
- Keep tossing arm high as you lean forward: as if you were holding against something high while your hip crosses into the court.

You generally would feel better if you elongated your swing. You seem a bit tight with that hitting arm at trophy:
- Elbow is too high, not in line with tilted shoulders:

- You also resist the drop, kind of "afraid" of being late to the ball possibly - let that elbow in the first place stay behind as you start uncoiling, then "whip" it up towards the ball.

And I agree with @SystemicAnomaly something is messed with your stance. I'd actually suggest that you practice your upper body stuff (high tossing arm, putting hitting arm elbow to where it belongs) from a casual platform stance with no extra steps and toned-down leg action - just some twisting, maybe stepping around into follow-through. Not driving and kicking. Then you re-inject leg action when upper part is cleaned up.

 

[Pctopcool]

Not bad at all, I think you have some basic dynamics down. I also like what you think of it:
- Definitely try higher toss. Not much, but give yourself more time to smoothly enter the motion.
- Keep tossing arm high as you lean forward: as if you were holding against something high while your hip crosses into the court.

You generally would feel better if you elongated your swing. You seem a bit tight with that hitting arm at trophy:
- Elbow is too high, not in line with tilted shoulders:

- You also resist the drop, kind of "afraid" of being late to the ball possibly - let that elbow in the first place stay behind as you start uncoiling, then "whip" it up towards the ball.

And I agree with @SystemicAnomaly something is messed with your stance. I'd actually suggest that you practice your upper body stuff (high tossing arm, putting hitting arm elbow to where it belongs) from a casual platform stance with no extra steps and toned-down leg action - just some twisting, maybe stepping around into follow-through. Not driving and kicking. Then you re-inject leg action when upper part is cleaned up.

Appreciate your detailed advice, which is really helpful. I'll start with the tossing arm and tackle the rest step by step. Guess my timing will probably be off for some time, before everything is in sync again.
Thanks again!

 

[golden chicken]

I agree with the advice above. Your initial stance is far too wide. Start where you end up, in that narrow platform/wide pinpoint, like you were doing in your old video. When you step up, your weight is almost entirely over your front foot, so you get no leg drive/uncoil action from your rear leg.

When you toss, try to stretch your hip over the baseline. This should help you get your shoulders tilted more and also involve your rear leg a bit more.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The video frame rate is too slow for the faster parts of the serve.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

Hi,
Nice work, and bravery for posting. It's natural to sit here, try to find what's wrong, and comment on it. But that doesn't mean there aren't lots of good things going on, too.

What I see is that it looks like your upper body is slightly in front of the ball at contact, causing a delay or hesitation in the rotation. There's forward movement of the upper body - from the waist up - that happens mostly before you hit the ball. The legs are just kind of moving up and down but not driving forward, probably because your head is already in front of the ball.

My suggestion is to try keep your back straighter, and maybe toss the ball a couple inches more forward, and see if that helps. I haven't video taped myself serving yet, but my first coach used to tell me all the time to keep by back straight. I have a feeling I was doing exactly what you're doing.

 

[LeeD]

With pinpoint, you need archers bow.
And lower your racket hand at trophy.

 

[Pctopcool]

I agree with the advice above. Your initial stance is far too wide. Start where you end up, in that narrow platform/wide pinpoint, like you were doing in your old video. When you step up, your weight is almost entirely over your front foot, so you get no leg drive/uncoil action from your rear leg.

When you toss, try to stretch your hip over the baseline. This should help you get your shoulders tilted more and also involve your rear leg a bit more.

Guess I shouldn't have watched too much Nick Kyrgios serves It is not meant for regular folks.
Joking aside, it seems many people suggest platform stance. I'll give it a try and see if it suit me better.
Thanks for you advice!

 

[Pctopcool]

The video frame rate is too slow for the faster parts of the serve.

Time for a new phone I guess...

 

[Pctopcool]

Hi,
Nice work, and bravery for posting. It's natural to sit here, try to find what's wrong, and comment on it. But that doesn't mean there aren't lots of good things going on, too.

What I see is that it looks like your upper body is slightly in front of the ball at contact, causing a delay or hesitation in the rotation. There's forward movement of the upper body - from the waist up - that happens mostly before you hit the ball. The legs are just kind of moving up and down but not driving forward, probably because your head is already in front of the ball.

My suggestion is to try keep your back straighter, and maybe toss the ball a couple inches more forward, and see if that helps. I haven't video taped myself serving yet, but my first coach used to tell me all the time to keep by back straight. I have a feeling I was doing exactly what you're doing.

Appreciate the kind words and great advice!
It's really an interesting observation about the relative position of the body and contact point. I've never thought about that. My upper body does have a tendency to lean to certain diction unconsciously. Probably due to lack of space/body awareness. This is especially true we I get tired. Definitely a good point that I will work on.
Thanks again for your help!

 

[Pctopcool]

With pinpoint, you need archers bow.
And lower your racket hand at trophy.

Thanks for the suggestion. Just to clarify, by saying "archers bow", do you mean the entire body should look like an archers bow at trophy pose (arch forward)?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Thanks for the suggestion. Just to clarify, by saying "archers bow", do you mean the entire body should look like an archers bow at trophy pose (arch forward)?

Here a consummate platformer with a very pronounced "archer's bow"

​

You won't see this with Roger's serve tho'. Sometimes, he has a hint of a bow but it's not at all obvious.

 

[ZanderGoga]

OP really shouldn't be worrying about pushing the hip out like that at this point. That's nothing more than the first step in loading the hips to come through before the torso in an upward throw, but the OP doesn't have any throwing motion at all, yet. His torso begins the serve at 0 degrees relative to the baseline, rotates to a maximum of...still 0 degrees at maximum load, and makes contact only a few degrees beyond that. The body simply isn't involved at all yet, and worrying about the hips should be the very last part of that learning process. Right now, he'd be wiggling his hips to no more effect than if he were on American Bandstand.

OP: watch a few youtube vids on throwing fundamentals for beginners. Or beginner throwing mechanics. Or teaching little leaguers how to pitch. You need to understand how the body moves the arm in a good motion before you can take any steps toward improving, and since you've never been taught throwing, that's the place to learn. A serve is a more complex throwing motion, and you're putting the cart before the horse trying to learn it one piece of advice at a time, instead of understanding the bedrock skill it's built upon.

 

[RVAtennisaddict]

I think all of the above posts are good, but to me biggest issue is it looks like you are checking/decelerating your serve motion to early. This robs power/spin and doesn't really involve changing anything else in your serve.

And to be specific it looks like you start decelerating racket before/at contact..
EDIT: not so sure when i look back... but that was my first impression. almost looks like you stop the racket waist high in the follow through- and to do that you either to tight or decelerating, imo.

 

[tennis tom]

Don't move your feet.

Keep your toss arm up--palm facing up.

Your toss hight is fine--place the ball in front of the racket.

 

[ReopeningWed]

The swing path is pretty nice actually for a rec player, I'd work on meeting the ball higher and working on your rhythm.

Bouncing the ball to be ready, I exhale, toss ball up and much slower with the racket during the ball toss, big breath in, racket starts accelerating and huge exhale for the swing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pete Sampras serve.

This sequence of pictures shows the brief 'chest up' sub-motion of the serve, #12, and its timing relative to the overall serve, #1 to #14, to the leg thrust, that ends at #11, and to impact, just after #13. Very informative in just one sequence of pictures. It took me from the 1970s until post #61 in 2019 before I understood this 'chest up' timing.

For more timing detail, see the 240 fps video in post #61.

One difference between your serving technique and that of most ATP pros is the sub-motion of Thoracic Extension followed by Thoracic Flexion around impact.

Figure 12 shows Sampras's Thoracic Extension and how it is quickly followed by Thoracic Flexion and impact.

Your jump is minimal and it follows that the Thoracic Extension is small or not there.

Thoracic Extension may be stressful for your back due to your personal risk factors. Thoracic Extension does not last very long and slower frame rates may not catch it for every serve.

You lock your eyes on the impact area and some pros do also. But most ATP pros break off looking at the ball a very short time before impact. Look at 10 videos of ATP serves and count the ones that look at the ball through impact vs those that break off looking. Looking at the ball probably restricts how the uppermost body can move.

Thread - Thoracic Extension and the Serve

Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Serve

WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ? http://www.racquetfit.com/articles/Screening/if_you_can%27t_extend_from_your_thoracic_spine_you%27re_squandering_power_and_inviting_injury The extension of the...

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