Shot Tolerance: The Elephant in Tennis Tips/Instruction

[Curious]

It’s because many people don’t actually care that they’re making those mistakes. Anyone who is actively trying to get better does stop making the same shot selection errors. Technique is another story of course.

I haven’t seen anyone who hits a dumb shot but not get pissed off!

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I haven’t seen anyone who hits a dumb shot but not get pissed off!

The mentally smart players will keep it to themselves and move on. If a little portion of the game bothers you, it will mess up the whole set. Me at least and I am pretty mentally solid.

 

[Curious]

My point is people don’t usually learn lessons from their mistakes. I have a friend who has the urge to hit hard dtl ohbh just clearing the net. He misses them 7 out of 10 times. 1 out of the 3 that he gets in is a great shot. He’s been doing this for years. Now explain it to me if you can!

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

My point is people don’t usually learn lessons from their mistakes. I have a friend who has the urge to hit hard dtl ohbh just clearing the net. He misses them 7 out of 10 times. 1 out of the 3 that he gets in is a great shot. He’s been doing this for years. Now explain it to me if you can!

I can't. Some people have a subconscious desire to take bigger risks, maybe he feels he has something to prove. Idk besides that I'm not a psychologist.

 

[MyFearHand]

I haven’t seen anyone who hits a dumb shot but not get pissed off!

I know where you're coming from and this confused me for years too. But I think what it comes down to is that they're angry they missed that shot, but the beautiful one they make 1/10 times is the one they want to make. They don't want to hit the shot that they'll make 9/10 times if it doesn't look as nice. They might even lie to themselves and say they want to play higher percentage tennis. But it's the same as when people say they want to improve. Almost anyone you poll says they want to improve but the way most people practice prove that it's not actually a very high priority for them.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I know where you're coming from and this confused me for years too. But I think what it comes down to is that they're angry they missed that shot, but the beautiful one they make 1/10 times is the one they want to make. They don't want to hit the shot that they'll make 9/10 times if it doesn't look as nice. They might even lie to themselves and say they want to play higher percentage tennis. But it's the same as when people say they want to improve. Almost anyone you poll says they want to improve but the way most people practice prove that it's not actually a very high priority for them.

Exactly.

 

[Curious]

I know where you're coming from and this confused me for years too. But I think what it comes down to is that they're angry they missed that shot, but the beautiful one they make 1/10 times is the one they want to make. They don't want to hit the shot that they'll make 9/10 times if it doesn't look as nice. They might even lie to themselves and say they want to play higher percentage tennis. But it's the same as when people say they want to improve. Almost anyone you poll says they want to improve but the way most people practice prove that it's not actually a very high priority for them.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[MyFearHand]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I wish it were different! But I've watched your videos and you've definitely improved over the past few years so at least you're not in this group.

 

[Curious]

I wish it were different! But I've watched your videos and you've definitely improved over the past few years so at least you're not in this group.

Thanks. To be honest I'm still hitting a lot of dumb shots although I don't think I'm in the group that you mentioned ie trying to hit the highlight shot despite knowing it's very low percentage. Mine is more about the misconception that I need to do something more than actually required in the situation. Low shot tolerance, worrying that I'll be the one that will screw up if the point keeps going.

 

[MyFearHand]

Thanks. To be honest I'm still hitting a lot of dumb shots although I don't think I'm in the group that you mentioned ie trying to hit the highlight shot despite knowing it's very low percentage. Mine is more about the misconception that I need to do something more than actually required in the situation. Low shot tolerance, worrying that I'll be the one that will screw up if the point keeps going.

Yeah I didn't mean to imply at any point that not hitting dumb shots is EASY. I just think it's easy to improve and make LESS dumb shots. That balance between making enough balls and trying to play aggressive tennis is very difficult to balance.

 

[Happi]

My point is people don’t usually learn lessons from their mistakes. I have a friend who has the urge to hit hard dtl ohbh just clearing the net. He misses them 7 out of 10 times. 1 out of the 3 that he gets in is a great shot. He’s been doing this for years. Now explain it to me if you can!

Dopamine addiction

 

[Curious]

Dopamine addiction

Stupidity and loss of self-control rather. I was just watching my match video and the number of unnecessary/risky DTL shots was unbelievable. Rarely did they really bother my opponent and furthermore I put myself in trouble every single time because of increasing the distance to recover for the next shot.

 

[Dragy]

One of the big reasons people want to bail out of the point after couple of shots. And particularly that desire strengthens when they get uncomfortable, pushed, or simply tired. He made me run wide and hit from uncofrotable spot? He likely will make it again the next shot? I don't want to be here, I go DTL hard, or try a drop-shot on the run from well behind the baseline - if I make it, I feel greate. If I miss, I've still ended this struggle.

It's a very easy pattern to follow, and sometimes it even makes sense tactically - for those who actually can make those shots, but is unlikely to win the battle of attrition.

But for most it's wrong focus, and it's actually lack of love for tennis. They don't want to play tennis which is hitting balls over the net and into the court. They don't want to extend rallies and face situations, develop patterns. They want out of the point as soon as it gets a smidge tough - and just having a rally of several balls may be that situation. Not even talking about chasing a good deep wide high-bouncing FH.

 

[LuckyR]

Because of the emotionally vulnerable nature of tennis matchplay, it can be ego-salvaging to make a couple of spectacular winners in an otherwise losing effort.

 

[Jonesy]

That goes without saying, if the player can't even keep the ball in play it is because he doesn't belong at that level, the rest are all excuses, this is basic stuff. Yet, it seems a lot of folks never had someone tell them about the nature of tennis.

 

[BenC]

How would I describe a difficult shot to my dumber younger self?

Difficulty factors:
+1 moving (+2 for RUNNING)
+1 outside strike zone (above shoulders / below knees)
+1 change of direction
+1 change of pace
+1 small target (down the line/short angle)

Additional difficulty factors based on the Incoming ball:
+1 extra pace
+1 within 0.5m of baseline/net/sideline (deep/short/wide)

For a rec player, +3 would be difficult, +4 ambitious, +5 or higher outright heroic.

final notes:
1) the difficulty factors are broad and will vary for different people. if you're a great mover the moving/running shots may be less of an issue, etc.
2) this doesn't account for what your opponent is doing (e.g. if they're at the net, you may need to attempt a more difficult shot to pass)

 

[socallefty]

You have to assess the risk level you want to play at not just the shot level, but at the match length level. When I was younger than most of my same-level singles opponents, it was in my favor to play long points, long sets etc. and try to win with physicality. Now that I am 15-20 years older than many of my same-level singles opponents, I try to keep points short and go for more on serves/shots. If I am going to win, it is by being aggressive and keeping a majority of points short. Accuracy is also more important to hit closer to the sidelines and make my younger opponents constantly hit on the run and force errors that way. As I’ve grown older, I work more on making my weapons (FHs, 1st serves, 2nd serve returns) bigger and more precise rather than working on consistency drills. On the other hand, I have good shot tolerance (see post#513) for my level technique-wise from playing a lot as a junior plus playing daily now and it goes down only as my legs get fatigued.

Ever since I learned a few years ago that 2/3rds of points even at the advanced rec level end within four shots, the way I practice has changed and I am much more likely to practice serves, returns, +1 shots, approaches/passes/volleys/overheads, precise smart targets and winner drills along with faster drills that try to improve my footwork intensity, explosiveness and endurance. Whenever my coach ‘kills‘ me with tough footwork drills (hitting on the move nonstop without water breaks till I’m exhausted/out of breath after each drill set) during my weekly lesson, I play well for the rest of the week.

Whatever your age/skill level you have to know the limits of what you can execute well and have a general strategy of what point patterns increase your chance of winning. It changes as you get older or your skill level changes.

 

[StringSnapper]

I believe analysis after each point could be quite effective. Not after the match or later in the evening.

Sometimes I look at pros and I think "why didn't you do x". They have all this talent but seem to lack some tennis IQ or something, or flexibility in their thinking, or they're missing a shot.

So many times I see an open court and then a pro hits a super loopy forehand and runs in, but the loop gives the opponent all the time in the world to hit a passing shot. If they just hit a flat forehand it probably would have been a winner, no volley required.

Some players suprise me though, like Alcaraz and Federer. Out of the blue they hit insane shots, I guess that's why they're the best - great tennis IQ and the talent to match it

 

[StringSnapper]

Not that I think my tennis IQ is better than pros, I do plenty of dumb things in a match. But as a detached observer I think it is, depending on the pro. Maybe analysing each point after it's played would be like a detached observer even when being the one playing.

 

[StringSnapper]

One of the big reasons people want to bail out of the point after couple of shots. And particularly that desire strengthens when they get uncomfortable, pushed, or simply tired. He made me run wide and hit from uncofrotable spot? He likely will make it again the next shot? I don't want to be here, I go DTL hard, or try a drop-shot on the run from well behind the baseline - if I make it, I feel greate. If I miss, I've still ended this struggle.

It's a very easy pattern to follow, and sometimes it even makes sense tactically - for those who actually can make those shots, but is unlikely to win the battle of attrition.

But for most it's wrong focus, and it's actually lack of love for tennis. They don't want to play tennis which is hitting balls over the net and into the court. They don't want to extend rallies and face situations, develop patterns. They want out of the point as soon as it gets a smidge tough - and just having a rally of several balls may be that situation. Not even talking about chasing a good deep wide high-bouncing FH.

Hmm, I'm not so sure

If a tennis match is a battle of attrition, usually the one who has the better fitness wins providing both players shots are relatively stable.

In this case if your the least fitter, it's better to take more risk and hope for an on day. If you lose 90% of the rallies beyond 4 points, why keep playing into that game?

It really comes down to how the points are going. If you're attacking every ball but it doesn't bother your opponent, they're probably just better. If your opponent blasts every ball past you and you can't do anything, equally they're probably just better.

Moving up the ranks you've gotta find your strengths. Cressey is like a top 50 player if he serves and volleys. If he was to stay at the baseline would he even crack top 500?

One thing I've often done is look at size. If my opponent is bigger than me, I'll probably have to get ready to defend. If they're smaller than me, I'll need to attack (unless they're significantly older, but some old guys can be very fit too). Also depends on if they're baselineing (I'll use the above) but if they SnV then I'll probably be mostly on defense then too.

 

[StringSnapper]

How would I describe a difficult shot to my dumber younger self?

Difficulty factors:
+1 moving (+2 for RUNNING)
+1 outside strike zone (above shoulders / below knees)
+1 change of direction
+1 change of pace
+1 small target (down the line/short angle)

Additional difficulty factors based on the Incoming ball:
+1 extra pace
+1 within 0.5m of baseline/net/sideline (deep/short/wide)

For a rec player, +3 would be difficult, +4 ambitious, +5 or higher outright heroic.

final notes:
1) the difficulty factors are broad and will vary for different people. if you're a great mover the moving/running shots may be less of an issue, etc.
2) this doesn't account for what your opponent is doing (e.g. if they're at the net, you may need to attempt a more difficult shot to pass)

Great way to put it!

 

[Dragy]

In this case if your the least fitter, it's better to take more risk and hope for an on day. If you lose 90% of the rallies beyond 4 points, why keep playing into that game?

That’s a viable strategy, if you picked it consciously. Executing it will be going for your shots and spots when you get a comfortable ball, first and foremost. The issue I talk about is when you try a hero shot when you get on the run. When you are ok to rally directionals for couple of shots from the start of the point, when balls are comfortable, but grow anxious further into the rally, or because he gave you something less comfortable.

 

[mtommer]

1 out of the 3 that he gets in is a great shot. He’s been doing this for years. Now explain it to me if you can!

If you can get 1 in 3 in, then you should be able to get 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 in eventually. That's what you work for.

 

[Curious]

If you can get 1 in 3 in, then you should be able to get 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 in eventually. That's what you work for.

You misunderstood. He gets 3 in out of 10. And 1 out of those 3 is a great shot.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Why do people insist on selecting dumb shots?

I can only speak for myself, but my sense of what is a good shot and what is a better shot to use based on my ability to do it is where dumb shots come from. Or more so, just see things REALLY clear in my head and not executing, and that's for both easy shots and low percentage shots.

I still like seeing this thread bumped. Has some good thoughts and tips actually.

 

[mtommer]

You misunderstood. He gets 3 in out of 10. And 1 out of those 3 is a great shot.

No, no, I got it.

 

[mental midget]

Everyone here is so busy talking about the stretch shortening cycle, esr/isr, and post modern 90mph groundstokes but I guess it's no fun to talk about the boring stuff that actually wins matches.

I divide shot tolerance into two categories, improving number one makes you a higher level player, improving number two helps you win at your level.

1: The quality of shot you can handle. If you are unable to return someone's serve or are overwhelmed by their rally ball, you are going to have a tough time winning.

So if two 4.0s can rally comfortably with each other then you introduce a 5.0 into the equation suddenly the 4.0 will start missing. Two 5.0s could do a cross court cooperative drill all day, but ask them to do it with Rafa Nadal and they would be lucky to get three balls back.

2: How many quality balls for your level you can hit in a point. Are you good for 4, 6, 8, 10+?

A very common scouting report is "yea, don't worry about it, he looks like a rockstar in the warm-up but once you start playing he can't hit 3 balls in the court.

When a veteran player plays a match the first thing he does is see if his opponent is going to miss. If the opponent is going to miss, then he goes no further, kicks on the cruise control and 6-3,6-2, shake hands, nice playing, great to meet you. If he isn't going to miss and the opponent isn't going to miss, then he actually has to play tennis.

J

absolutely. of course if your opponent is simply better than you it's mostly going to be about how you want to lose...but against a 'peer,' man overplaying is just a killer. getting over the anxiety that you have to do something special with every ball is a huge step in progressing your game. simply hitting deep w margin and giving yourself time to position yourself properly pays huge dividends.

 

[pencilcheck]

Sometimes it’s because they don’t know a shot is dumb. For example, I’ve played a lot of junior players who like to slap every running forehand down the line. This doesn’t work so well when your running forehand isn’t that great and your opponent can easily use your pace to redirect the ball to the open court. A lot of times on this ball it’s better to roll it deep to give yourself time to recover. But they’re juniors so they’ll learn (hopefully).

But then there are a lot of people who simply don’t care if a shot is dumb. It’s the flashy shot they want to hit and they get excited the 1/20 times they make it and it’s all they remember.

I played a guy in a tournament a few years back who reached a career high of 800 or so atp. He was 20 or 21 at the time. He lobbed me in one point and I hit a tweener winner on him. He clapped and asked me if I aimed it where I did on purpose. I said yes I did, but I’m down 0-6 1-4 so who cares lol? He just laughed. A lot of people might tell that story to brag about the “sick tweener they hit.” But the real story of the match was every time we got into a rally each shot he hit was VERY deep and I fell a little more behind with each subsequent ball. I hit shorter and shorter until he hit a winner or forced an error. Nothing that guy did was “sexy” but he kept putting the ball deep on me and I just couldn’t keep up. That’s a very effective way to play but it’s not highlight material stuff and people don’t hold those players in as high esteem as big shot makers.

it is hard to describe this in one sentence as well, that's why most people focus on easy to use concepts like racquet head speed, low to high, hit over shoulder, squeak the shoes. The intention is right, but the execution is very bad. lol

 

[Curious]

Didn't even notice while watching the match, Karue reveals at the end of the video that he purposely tried to avoid hitting any winners!
A good way to practice developing shot tolerance for us lower than 7.0s? I'll try it in my match tonight.

 

[Dragy]

Didn't even notice while watching the match, Karue reveals at the end of the video that he purposely tried to avoid hitting any winners!
A good way to practice developing shot tolerance for us lower than 7.0s? I'll try it in my match tonight.

Have you been trying to hit winners a lot before? I mean aside from close-up volleys, overheads and short sitters, and passing shots obviously?

 

[Curious]

Have you been trying to hit winners a lot before? I mean aside from close-up volleys, overheads and short sitters, and passing shots obviously?

Let’s say unnecessarily aggressive maybe. Too close to the lines, too much forward speed than spinny shaped balls.

 

[Dragy]

Let’s say unnecessarily aggressive maybe. Too close to the lines, too much forward speed than spinny shaped balls.

Yeah I get it. I'd generalize it into "trying to do too much with the ball", be that speed or placement, including depth. Particularly doing that after you hit 2-3 "normal" shots, and the ball still comes back neutrally. NEED TO DO MORE

 

[Hawks9451]

If you feel compelled to squeeze "winners" out of a weak position, your neutral ball is probably too light and weak to make your opponent work hard. It feels, on the weaker player's end, like they need to take riskier shots to end points.

 

[pencilcheck]

Didn't even notice while watching the match, Karue reveals at the end of the video that he purposely tried to avoid hitting any winners!
A good way to practice developing shot tolerance for us lower than 7.0s? I'll try it in my match tonight.

Winner is to me a last resort. Usually I will do a winner on my opponent's winner if I can't make an angle.