Why do you think shot tolerance is so much lower when playing points and matches?

[FiReFTW]

Just interested what everyone thinks why this is the case.

For example im doing alot of hitting on the run in the last few weeks and are improving constantly, when I practice like 1-1 where I hit a forehand, then get a backhand in the other corner, then forehand from the other corner again etc... and similar drills like this, and its not like the balls are placed softly and great, sometimes im having to really dig for them or hit on the pure sprint, they are not easy balls and im also hitting quite hard with very good racquet speed.

And im getting better and better at it, and I can get many exchanges going, many times we get to 20-30 balls or even more

Well in a match for example, its not NEARLY as good, of course it is slowly improving also, but im wondering why you think the shot tolerance is so much lower in actual matches, since its not like im hitting easy feeds down the middle, but actually difficult balls, and not only these on the run, many similar match scenario balls, deep balls, short balls etc etc.. and in a match the tolerance is MUCH lower.

I know it will improve with time, both of these things will, they already are improving, so this is not a thread where im asking for help about this issue, because im pretty sure this is pretty much true for every player out there, im just particularly wondering why you think this is the case?

Some theories when I think about it:

-Practicing these things you are loose and not nervious and uncaring if you miss so you can really swing freely and relaxed, while in a match you might be tighter because theres something on the line, points that you want to win
-Perhaps in practice ur more focused on hitting quality balls but consistent balls and your goal is getting as much exchanges as possible while in a match in the back of ur head ur always thinking how to push ur opponent somehow or force errors from him somehow instead of how to get as much exchanges as possible, thats not really your main focus, this seems to be a huge difference in mentality and can affect shot tolerance alot I guess
-Could also be that in practice in most such drills you know where the next ball will be and what ur goal is clearly (to get as much exchanges) while in a match you have no clue where the ball will be hit left, right, short, deep.. and you also have to be making decisions on the spot since you don't have 1 goal in mind (keep the ball in and work on consistency) but you have to think about many different options, ball is hit there.. what are my options, what is the best shot to hit now? etc..

These 3 things seem pretty accurate, maybe something else also?

 

[sredna42]

If you figure it out, let me know

 

[Born_to_slice]

I can get many exchanges going, many times we get to 20-30 balls or even more

Do you stop exchanges if the ball is out or bounces twice?

 

[FiReFTW]

Do you stop exchanges if the ball is out or bounces twice?

It never bounces twice, sometimes its out and we continue, but that doesn't happen very often, can happen once or twice during those long exchanges but not always.

 

[Born_to_slice]

It never bounces twice, sometimes its out and we continue, but that doesn't happen very often, can happen once or twice during those long exchanges but not always.

So your coach runs down all balls short and wide during practice? I've never seen one do that consistently when training a rec player.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that there is no pressure during practice. If you miss by 10 cm on an offensive shot, it's a "good" miss. No such thing when playing points.

 

[FiReFTW]

So your coach runs down all balls short and wide during practice? I've never seen one do that consistently when training a rec player.

I don't hit short and if I do the ball has alot of spin and bounces very deep, but my coach doesn't need to run to chase balls, this drill is such that only I do the running.

Example:

Coach is on the deuce side, im on the deuce side.
She hits crosscourt and I hit crosscourt with my forehand, then she hits DDL and I run to the backhand side and hit DDL, then she hits CC and I run to the other side and hit CC, then she hits DDL etc...

 

[Born_to_slice]

I don't hit short and if I do the ball has alot of spin and bounces very deep, but my coach doesn't need to run to chase balls, this drill is such that only I do the running.

Example:

Coach is on the deuce side, im on the deuce side.
She hits crosscourt and I hit crosscourt with my forehand, then she hits DDL and I run to the backhand side and hit DDL, then she hits CC and I run to the other side and hit CC, then she hits DDL etc...

If you can hit 20-30 balls like that, with 10-15 of them being DTL BHs, that's impressive. Try to play like that in a match. Don't get how you never hit short? Lots of spin and with low net clearance, that's usually a shot people have to move forward to dig out at ankle height.

 

[r2473]

The same reason why you are always able to perfectly return an out serve.

 

[blablavla]

Just interested what everyone thinks why this is the case.

For example im doing alot of hitting on the run in the last few weeks and are improving constantly, when I practice like 1-1 where I hit a forehand, then get a backhand in the other corner, then forehand from the other corner again etc... and similar drills like this, and its not like the balls are placed softly and great, sometimes im having to really dig for them or hit on the pure sprint, they are not easy balls and im also hitting quite hard with very good racquet speed.

And im getting better and better at it, and I can get many exchanges going, many times we get to 20-30 balls or even more

Well in a match for example, its not NEARLY as good, of course it is slowly improving also, but im wondering why you think the shot tolerance is so much lower in actual matches, since its not like im hitting easy feeds down the middle, but actually difficult balls, and not only these on the run, many similar match scenario balls, deep balls, short balls etc etc.. and in a match the tolerance is MUCH lower.

I know it will improve with time, both of these things will, they already are improving, so this is not a thread where im asking for help about this issue, because im pretty sure this is pretty much true for every player out there, im just particularly wondering why you think this is the case?

Some theories when I think about it:

-Practicing these things you are loose and not nervious and uncaring if you miss so you can really swing freely and relaxed, while in a match you might be tighter because theres something on the line, points that you want to win
-Perhaps in practice ur more focused on hitting quality balls but consistent balls and your goal is getting as much exchanges as possible while in a match in the back of ur head ur always thinking how to push ur opponent somehow or force errors from him somehow instead of how to get as much exchanges as possible, thats not really your main focus, this seems to be a huge difference in mentality and can affect shot tolerance alot I guess
-Could also be that in practice in most such drills you know where the next ball will be and what ur goal is clearly (to get as much exchanges) while in a match you have no clue where the ball will be hit left, right, short, deep.. and you also have to be making decisions on the spot since you don't have 1 goal in mind (keep the ball in and work on consistency) but you have to think about many different options, ball is hit there.. what are my options, what is the best shot to hit now? etc..

These 3 things seem pretty accurate, maybe something else also?

perhaps you need to forget that you play a match and be in training mood?
I'm ready to pay you for master class if you succeed at this

 

[MyFearHand]

I think probably the biggest thing is your third reason. You know in practice exactly where the next ball is supposed to go, whereas in a match you have no idea. You have to recognize where it is going which means you get there a little later.

 

[FiReFTW]

I think probably the biggest thing is your third reason. You know in practice exactly where the next ball is supposed to go, whereas in a match you have no idea. You have to recognize where it is going which means you get there a little later.

Yes very true!

 

[mucat]

You mentioned you do 20-30 balls (corner to corner)? But in a match, usually the point will end with either your opponent finish the point with a winner (most likely) or one of you make an error. If you are defending and make a forced error, it is pretty normal.
The worse case would be you try to create something more than it is possible or needed. Like going for a running FH/BH winner. In a match, it is common to hit something high to reset the point when running. It is good to practice running groundstrokes but those are lower % shots.

 

[maleyoyo]

Mine are the same
In practice, my first serve % is 91
In matches .................... % is 19

 

[FiReFTW]

If you can hit 20-30 balls like that, with 10-15 of them being DTL BHs, that's impressive. Try to play like that in a match. Don't get how you never hit short? Lots of spin and with low net clearance, that's usually a shot people have to move forward to dig out at ankle height.

Hah, its getting better and better and I can hit more and more, but no not at the hitting 30 balls in a row yet, I meant exchanges, so counting her hit aswell, so more like 10-15+ hits for miself alone.

 

[Born_to_slice]

Hah, its getting better and better and I can hit more and more, but no not at the hitting 30 balls in a row yet, I meant exchanges, so counting her hit aswell, so more like 10-15+ hits for miself alone.

Yeah I understood but expressed myself badly. If you can hit 7 cc fhs and 7 dtl bhs without making a mistake that's impressive.

 

[Doan]

Example:

Coach is on the deuce side, im on the deuce side.
She hits crosscourt and I hit crosscourt with my forehand, then she hits DDL and I run to the backhand side and hit DDL, then she hits CC and I run to the other side and hit CC, then she hits DDL etc...

You can hit more consistently because the coach is giving you consistent shots - like you'd get with a ball machine. Get some lower paced/loopier shots and slices mixed in. That'll mimic match conditions.

 

[ChaelAZ]

The key to rec tennis is somewhere in being able to make practice play your match play. That is true from bottom to the highest peaks. Obviously people mentioned easy to spot things like pace, expectation, and the whole concept of cooperation when practicing with rallies. And then even in practice competitive matches, it still isn't the same mental pressure and play of a match with something on the line. But that the crux of it right there...being able to play in any situation as if there is nothing on the line. I can't stand when I get up in my head about ratings and "should win" or "should've killed that ball", etc. I can go hit 10+ ball competitive points in practice, then shank within 2 consistently in a match. Just how it plays out.

For me, it is the mental aspect of focusing on competing over focusing on anything else. I have a singles match Monday against a guy I have played twice this season. Honestly, his game isn't any stronger than mine, but he has much better match tolerance right now than me and is killing me. My focus for this Monday is only going to be on putting balls in play towards the middle and slowly ramping up picking my spots. We will see how ti goes. Hopeing to get some video.

 

[FiReFTW]

You can hit more consistently because the coach is giving you consistent shots - like you'd get with a ball machine. Get some lower paced/loopier shots and slices mixed in. That'll mimic match conditions.

Very good idea!

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

For me, it was endurance. I wasn't as tired during drills as rest was managed better. In sets I liked faster tempos so I didn't manage my endurance as well.

Now, it's the reverse. I play much worse in practice than I do in sets. I don't care too much about practice and use it to try out different shots. It got better when I changed how I approached practice and looked at it as a cooperative thing similar to warming up/hitting instead of the point simulation that it was (if I give them a ball to practice with instead of hitting a cheeky winner, we get more practice out of it). But I still play better in matches now because I'm more focused and nobody is going to yell at me or nitpick my mistakes in matches, but I get nagged for making silly errors in practice. I'm way more open to making mistakes in matches versus practice too. If it happens in a match, I'll be sad or disappointed for all of 2 seconds, then forget about it. 10-20 seconds if it was a really big point to me. If it happens in practice, I'll hang my head and occasionally even get to the point of yelling at myself. I drop that perfectionist attitude and ego when I get into a match though, and it's helped me immensely.

In matches I also have the benefit of my serve to lighten the load.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Because we're afraid that if we don't put the ball away, our opponent will. We forget that our opponent is human and error-prone [to some extent] like we are and that tennis is more often lost through errors than won through winners. So we take too much risk and make errors. Sometimes, it's our opponent that donates points. The winner is then determined by who happened to NOT try to put the ball away more often.

 

[mcs1970]

In practice your head is usually still, because you don't feel the need to quickly glance where your opponent is. In games, one tends to do that. That's one of the biggest breakdowns for lower level players.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

In practice your head is usually still, because you don't feel the need to quickly glance where your opponent is. In games, one tends to do that. That's one of the biggest breakdowns for lower level players.

It occurred to me that your explanation is geared towards lower shot tolerance as meaning "how many shots can I get in?" whereas mine is related to "how many shots do I want to get in?". Even if I keep my head still, my shot tolerance may be low because I'm too likely to want to pull the trigger.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Because we're afraid that if we don't put the ball away, our opponent will. We forget that our opponent is human and error-prone [to some extent] like we are and that tennis is more often lost through errors than won through winners. So we take too much risk and make errors. Sometimes, it's our opponent that donates points. The winner is then determined by who happened to NOT try to put the ball away more often.

Played king of the hill with a friend yesterday whom many would agree is much better than me. First 6 points he played against me, his first ball is a winner less than 6 inches from the sideline. After that, I was winning a lot of the points against him, particularly baseline rallies where he should be king as the consistent baseliner. Whole session, I made like 2 unforced errors against him (1 off the feed and one off a ball he hit that I thought went into the net). He made a lot more unforced errors trying to get the ball past me, a few balls just outside the sideline, a few balls long, and a few into the net after 6+ balls from each of us. He wasn't used to having to wait more than 2-3 shots for me to miss. He hit more winners, way more unforced errors, and more forced errors.

Yeah, he could beat me, and beat me really hard. But if I stand my ground and say, "okay, you hit 6 in a row, very impressive. Now keep doing it for the rest of the day", he comes back to Earth eventually and we can have rallies. And I am fully capable of winning those rallies as long as I'm willing to run to keep the ball in front of me and hit 30 balls crosscourt. He comments during the session and again after, "it is mind blowing how differently you play now, it's like you grew a brain these past 2 months. It's a good change, much smarter tennis."

It's the same thing my doubles partner and I think about when we beat other people. They see big serves, lots of put-away and poaches, and big/frustrating returns. They then think to themselves, "these guys are good! I gotta raise my level so they don't keep crushing me!" Every time, it's the wrong answer. They focus on us at our best, and not at our worst. They don't see us doing our best to keep points going even if it means bunting the ball back. They don't see us ease up on low volleys to make sure we get them back so we can continue the point. They don't see us fighting in volley exchanges just as scared of the other guy, but doing our best to try and get just one more volley in play each time. They don't see me hitting underhand serves with a dead shoulder or using weird form to try and get some type of challenging spin on the ball just to be able to start a point.

All they see is the pretty tennis. Sure, it helps, but we win because we're more willing to play ugly tennis. They come out thinking they lost to the pretty tennis because that makes it easier to protect the ego. They can't lose to the pretty tennis. They either lose to themselves or our ugly tennis.

tl;dr Keep getting balls back, the better player(s) will miss eventually. Commit to it for the whole day and you might be surprised that you come out with a win.

 

[user92626]

The same reason why you are always able to perfectly return an ace serve.




It's called Trumping®. I routinely return ace serves. Made billions through art of dealings. Do perfect drop shots from 20 ft behind the baseline. Built dozens of very successful casinos and prestigious universities. Slice a ball so hard it causes tornadoes in parts of the world.

(Don't ask me for proofs or you're nuts)

 

[mcs1970]

It occurred to me that your explanation is geared towards lower shot tolerance as meaning "how many shots can I get in?" whereas mine is related to "how many shots do I want to get in?". Even if I keep my head still, my shot tolerance may be low because I'm too likely to want to pull the trigger.

Agreed. Not just pull the trigger, but the other extreme too where you get too cautious and dink it to the net because you are so worried about not hitting it long after a couple of overhits.

 

[FiReFTW]

Agreed. Not just pull the trigger, but the other extreme too where you get too cautious and dink it to the net because you are so worried about not hitting it long after a couple of overhits.

That used to happen to me alot, now it seems to only happen when im up 15:40 or so and feel like this is my chance. Slowly improving..

 

[Slicerman]

It occurred to me that your explanation is geared towards lower shot tolerance as meaning "how many shots can I get in?" whereas mine is related to "how many shots do I want to get in?". Even if I keep my head still, my shot tolerance may be low because I'm too likely to want to pull the trigger.

I agree. I think shot tolerance is actually more of a mindset. Its about how many shots a player is willing to play during a point. Generally the more aggressive a player plays, the lower the shot tolerance becomes. I think this is why at the recreational level pushing and pushers tend to win more often. Lack of patience could also be factor when it comes to low shot tolerance, like jumping the gun on a ball that they shouldn't attack or poor shot selection, resulting in unforced errors.

However if we're talking how many shots are you ABLE to make, then that should be classified as "consistency".

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I agree. I think shot tolerance is actually more of a mindset. Its about how many shots a player is willing to play during a point. Generally the more aggressive a player plays, the lower the shot tolerance becomes. I think this is why at the recreational level pushing and pushers tend to win more often. Lack of patience could also be factor when it comes to low shot tolerance, like jumping the gun on a ball that they shouldn't attack or poor shot selection, resulting in unforced errors.

However if we're talking how many shots are you ABLE to make, then that should be classified as "consistency".

I'm relatively poor at both. That's a big contributor to my losses.

 

[mcs1970]

I agree. I think shot tolerance is actually more of a mindset. Its about how many shots a player is willing to play during a point. Generally the more aggressive a player plays, the lower the shot tolerance becomes. I think this is why at the recreational level pushing and pushers tend to win more often. Lack of patience could also be factor when it comes to low shot tolerance, like jumping the gun on a ball that they shouldn't attack or poor shot selection, resulting in unforced errors.

However if we're talking how many shots are you ABLE to make, then that should be classified as "consistency".

These arguments can be spun both ways. If your technique is breaking down because you are lifting your head up too early in real game situations then no matter how much you want to extend the rally, it will not work. What if your opponent is at a higher level than you and the rallies are over quickly because he will make you pay for the first poor ball? Again at that point your mindset won’t matter.

I know shot tolerance is widely used on this forum but to me it is a subjective term. IMO main reasons for practices not carrying over to games are nerves, not realizing when to attack vs when to defend, breakdown in technique due to what I mentioned, and certain strokes that are reliant on too many moving parts that it fails when one thing goes wrong.

So for me it is better to focus on what is breaking down in real games so as to replicate what you are doing in practices as much as possible in real games.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Agreed. Not just pull the trigger, but the other extreme too where you get too cautious and dink it to the net because you are so worried about not hitting it long after a couple of overhits.

I'd much rather miss long than wide or into the net. I find it a lot harder to miss long than wide or into the net. So if I miss long, I don't care too much about it. Most balls that I think I hit long end up being inside the line.

And if a better player is punishing you for poor balls, try to aim slightly deeper, move further behind the baseline, and do your best to run balls down. You'll do better than trying to use shots you don't own.

I think S&V is right for most people that overplaying in matches comes from a fear that the opponent will constantly put you in the dirt if you don't put him down first.

I'm relatively poor at both. That's a big contributor to my losses.

Goes down with age, which is why I'm doing my best to enjoy whatever time I can spend with somewhat quick legs.

 

[tlm]

Like already mentioned you know where the ball is going and it’s basically the same pace shot, in a match in can be the complete opposite.

 

[FiReFTW]

I think S&V is right for most people that overplaying in matches comes from a fear that the opponent will constantly put you in the dirt if you don't put him down first.

For sure!

 

[mcs1970]

I hear this thing frequently on this forum. Hit at 70% or 60% of your normal speed on strokes and on serves. I might have spouted this generic cliche advice too on occassions. What does that really mean? Shouldn't your rhs speed in practices match exactly what's your speed in games? When you consciously start to tweak stuff in games, your whole muscle memory that you build up in practices is thrown out of the window. This is when you start getting tentative and make mistakes.

The only speed that should be more in practices is your effort at running down balls and overall movement. Move as much and as fast as you can so that games become easier. Your rhs speed on serves or on your strokes otoh should be exactly mimicking what you want to do in games. If 70% of rhs that you are capable of hitting is what keeps the ball in matches, that 70% should become your new normal in practices too. I understand doing some drills specifically just to get used to speeding up your rhs on serves and strokes. But once you get that down and are practicing strokes, serves, why would you want to do something different than what you do in games?

 

[FiReFTW]

I hear this thing frequently on this forum. Hit at 70% or 60% of your normal speed on strokes and on serves. I might have spouted this generic cliche advice too on occassions. What does that really mean? Shouldn't your rhs speed in practices match exactly what's your speed in games? When you consciously start to tweak stuff in games, your whole muscle memory that you build up in practices is thrown out of the window. This is when you start getting tentative and make mistakes.

The only speed that should be more in practices is your effort at running down balls and overall movement. Move as much and as fast as you can so that games become easier. Your rhs speed on serves or on your strokes otoh should be exactly mimicking what you want to do in games. If 70% of rhs that you are capable of hitting is what keeps the ball in matches, that 70% should become your new normal in practices too. I understand doing some drills specifically just to get used to speeding up your rhs on serves and strokes. But once you get that down and are practicing strokes, serves, why would you want to do something different than what you do in games?

Less rhs offers better placement, if i hit my slice serve at 70-80% i can hit wide and short consistently.
Did that today in doubles and hit 10 aces pff this slice out wide.
If I swing 90%+ the serve is more powerful but i cant aim so close to the line or the 1st serve % will drop down too much, so placement is worse and i have to aim for a more conservative target.

Usually the best bet is to mix it up a bit.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Less rhs offers better placement, if i hit my slice serve at 70-80% i can hit wide and short consistently.
Did that today in doubles and hit 10 aces pff this slice out wide.
If I swing 90%+ the serve is more powerful but i cant aim so close to the line or the 1st serve % will drop down too much, so placement is worse and i have to aim for a more conservative target.

Usually the best bet is to mix it up a bit.

Just because you swing 90% vs 70% doesn't mean the server will be more powerful: it depends on where that extra energy is going. If it all goes to forward motion, then yes, it is more powerful. However, if it all goes to upward/sideways motion, then the serve will have more spin.

Slowing down your RHS is typically a mistake on the 2nd serve because you lose the extra margin you'd otherwise get with spin. You just have to work at converting that power into spin rather than forward momentum.

 

[mcs1970]

Less rhs offers better placement, if i hit my slice serve at 70-80% i can hit wide and short consistently.
Did that today in doubles and hit 10 aces pff this slice out wide.
If I swing 90%+ the serve is more powerful but i cant aim so close to the line or the 1st serve % will drop down too much, so placement is worse and i have to aim for a more conservative target.

Usually the best bet is to mix it up a bit.

You are missing my point. I already know all of the above.

What I am arguing against is the advice to swing differently in matches as opposed to practice. What I am saying is that you make that determination of what your max speed that you can consistently keep it in in practices and then consciously drop that speed in practices itself by a certain amount so that you are not changing anything in real games.

Now if you are consciously trying to increase your rhs then do those specific drills. But in parallel whatever your current comfortable speed is in games, you have to practice that way.

 

[FiReFTW]

You are missing my point. I already know all of the above.

What I am arguing against is the advice to swing differently in matches as opposed to practice. What I am saying is that you make that determination of what your max speed that you can consistently keep it in in practices and then consciously drop that speed in practices itself by a certain amount so that you are not changing anything in real games.

Now if you are consciously trying to increase your rhs then do those specific drills. But in parallel whatever your current comfortable speed is in games, you have to practice that way.

Yes I agree with you, tho if you play with really weak players you probably dont want to hit fully, and will hold back a bit, thats the only reason I can think where it applies.

 

[FiReFTW]

Just because you swing 90% vs 70% doesn't mean the server will be more powerful: it depends on where that extra energy is going. If it all goes to forward motion, then yes, it is more powerful. However, if it all goes to upward/sideways motion, then the serve will have more spin.

Slowing down your RHS is typically a mistake on the 2nd serve because you lose the extra margin you'd otherwise get with spin. You just have to work at converting that power into spin rather than forward momentum.

Well if everything else is equal you get more spin and more pace with 90% vs 70%, but with a 1st serve the 70% offers better placement, if I aim for the line at 90% then I won't be very accurate, but with 70% I can be quite accurate and hit it very often.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

I hear this thing frequently on this forum. Hit at 70% or 60% of your normal speed on strokes and on serves. I might have spouted this generic cliche advice too on occassions. What does that really mean? Shouldn't your rhs speed in practices match exactly what's your speed in games? When you consciously start to tweak stuff in games, your whole muscle memory that you build up in practices is thrown out of the window. This is when you start getting tentative and make mistakes.

The only speed that should be more in practices is your effort at running down balls and overall movement. Move as much and as fast as you can so that games become easier. Your rhs speed on serves or on your strokes otoh should be exactly mimicking what you want to do in games. If 70% of rhs that you are capable of hitting is what keeps the ball in matches, that 70% should become your new normal in practices too. I understand doing some drills specifically just to get used to speeding up your rhs on serves and strokes. But once you get that down and are practicing strokes, serves, why would you want to do something different than what you do in games?

If you want to play as well in matches as you do in practice or as well in practice as you do matches, I whole heartedly agree. That 90% shot isn't your shot unless you don't want to win matches. The 70% shot is your shot, and is the one that should be trained. As you get better, it naturally becomes a higher quality ball, and you might even feel comfortable enough to use 80% consistently. Hell, you might occasionally feel like going for 90 or 100% when the time is right, but that 70% ball is your shot, and is the one that is your bread and butter that should be practiced to death.

Less rhs offers better placement, if i hit my slice serve at 70-80% i can hit wide and short consistently.
Did that today in doubles and hit 10 aces pff this slice out wide.
If I swing 90%+ the serve is more powerful but i cant aim so close to the line or the 1st serve % will drop down too much, so placement is worse and i have to aim for a more conservative target.

Usually the best bet is to mix it up a bit.

If you hit 10 aces with it, and can guarantee contact outside of the doubles alley, why aren't you using it more often? If my serve is so out of control I have to aim for a big spot, that's not the serve I want to be using. Why bother with going 130 mph when you can consistently ace the other guy with 110? You don't get points for putting big numbers on the speed gun. It's also easier on your arm. Be a big server into your 50s and beyond by being smart over going big.

Yes I agree with you, tho if you play with really weak players you probably dont want to hit fully, and will hold back a bit, thats the only reason I can think where it applies.

Assuming it's in a set/match you want to win and not cooperative practice/warm up, why are you holding back from what should be your base shot? Played with some 3.5s and 4.0s today in doubles. I hit the exact same shots as I do against 4.5 players. except with a bit more air under my slice backhand (it's been too low over the net in general for my liking recently). I might take a bit of extra time to make sure I measured the ball right and am not underestimating the shot, but overall I hit the same ball.

Might be useful for you to know, but 3 months ago, playing against these guys would be giving me all the same mental anxiety that you get when you play matches. I'd get tight on some pressure points and momentum shifts would be frequent, and I'd do things like blaming my serve or forehand for being off or saying the pairing was a little too unfair and I just can't carry that hard (all in my head of course). I'd tell myself I need to get every ball in, apply huge pressure with every shot so I can make sure I can get the next ball rather than my partner, and make sure every put-away shot is put away immediately. The mental pressure was simply too much and leads to a lot of mistakes and disappointment.

Rather than that, today I went out to 1) practice with the wall, and enjoy the process of hitting balls with it, and 2) enjoy tennis and the competition. If I lose, I lose, but I won't beat myself or my team.

Long story of how it went:

Spoiler

First set, went against one of the best pairings in the group with someone who I initially thought would get blown out by the flexibility of the other team's aggression and defense, thought I'd lose but would do my best to make it competitive and enjoy the time out there. We won pretty comfortably. Not a blowout set, but we were very comfortable on serve and applied a lot of pressure in return games. Hit probably the biggest second serve of my life in or out of practice for an ace without trying (definitely biggest I've hit outside of practice without the assistance of a bad bounce). I made a bunch of mistakes at net, far more than I normally do, but it didn't bother me. I later realized it's because I was playing the volleys farther back compared to where I normally played them. Moved up closer for the next volley and hit a winner, and continued in that direction for the rest of the day.

Next two sets, blow out the competition 6-0. One pairing was to be expected. I kept the same partner against two players around the middle in terms of skill. If we cruised through one of the best pairings, we'd likely blow out a pair at this level. They were fighting just to get a handful of points. I felt bad and tried to hit a return long to give them a game, without making it too obvious, but it ended up going in for a winner. I legit took off as much spin as I could, swung faster (without looking like a madman to make it look believable), and even used a continental grip to open the racket face. Second pair was better, I swapped my partner for one of the players I just played, and a different guy who's maybe a bit more consistent but with less power goes to pair with my old partner. I expect a decent fight, but I end up closing them out quickly too. Final set was a decent pair versus me and a player that is worried about not being good enough for the court. We struggled a bit early. I easily hold, but I couldn't do enough at net to help my partner hold. We go down an early break then go on a tear and win the next 5/6 games to win the set, but it was a fight the whole way. I felt very little pressure to execute. I didn't worry about my partners too much (I still worried about them a little and covered for them just in case, but I wasn't sweating every time they hit the ball). I just played within myself and played the ball, nobody else exists when I'm hitting that ball.

Analysis of performance:

Spoiler

I guarantee that 3 months ago, I'd lose at least two of these sets, if not three. There's no way I'd beat the first pair or the last pair. The second would probably still be an easy win, and the third would be a battle. And again, the only thing that has really changed since then is 1) I have a better topspin lob, and 2) my mental approach to tennis is drastically different, and 3) I'm more fit now, especially with the upper body. Very little, if anything, in my technique has changed. And yet, I didn't double fault when I'd normally throw in maybe around 3 for the amount I played. Not only that, I hit some of the biggest second serves of my life playing in conditions 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) colder than when my biggest serves normally come (an extra 10-15 degrees makes a noticeable difference on serves). I made very few mistakes (still made plenty, but before I wouldn't be able to count how many I made), and I still applied a ton of pressure with almost every shot I hit.

But objectively evaluating my play, I played decently, but not amazing, maybe even slightly below expectations. My percentages when hitting first serves was lower than it should be, probably around 50%, not at 60% where I would want it. My net positioning was weak and lazy, as was my movement for overheads. I gave too much work to my partner to chase down lobs I didn't want to move back to hit. I let too many poachable balls past me because I was too scared of being beat up the line if my partner hits a slow serve. My crosscourt returns in the last set against one of the opposing servers was really lacking, and his partner appropriately punished me for it, but at least I made him hit a ball almost every time. My recovery after the return was also weak, leaving the deep section in the middle of the court open after a short, wide serve, and the server appropriately did his best to punish me every time for it until I woke up and realized he planed it out that way. Would I play better against 4.5s? On average, yes. I'd be more mindful of my movement and positioning, and would move much more aggressively to attack and defend court. My serve percentage would be maybe a bit better, as I'd like to avoid hitting second serves and would hit more topspin serves.

Conclusion:
In your situation, if you're expected to win and crush, you get tight and go for cop-out plays or lose the ability to hit your strokes. I used to be the same, which is why some of these matches went the other way or were much closer. Just changing my perspective, and going for percentage tactics, I had a very comfortable time out on court. It's not your technique that makes the difference, it's your head.

 

[FiReFTW]

If you hit 10 aces with it, and can guarantee contact outside of the doubles alley, why aren't you using it more often? If my serve is so out of control I have to aim for a big spot, that's not the serve I want to be using. Why bother with going 130 mph when you can consistently ace the other guy with 110? You don't get points for putting big numbers on the speed gun. It's also easier on your arm. Be a big server into your 50s and beyond by being smart over going big.

These guys in the doubles werent that high level, dunno how it would work against high level players, its placed pretty well but the speed is probably only around 80-90mph, don't think that would be enough against rly good players, need to test it out and see when I have the chance, usually against rly good players I hit faster and aim more conservatevely so if I misshit a bit wide it can be an ace, but if not it has enough speed so they can't attack or possible that they make an error or give a short ball.

Assuming it's in a set/match you want to win and not cooperative practice/warm up, why are you holding back from what should be your base shot? Played with some 3.5s and 4.0s today in doubles. I hit the exact same shots as I do against 4.5 players. except with a bit more air under my slice backhand (it's been too low over the net in general for my liking recently). I might take a bit of extra time to make sure I measured the ball right and am not underestimating the shot, but overall I hit the same ball.

I mean if they are not that much weaker yea, I agree, I was mostly talking about when you play with a friend casually or so, and the friend is like WAY WAY weaker and can't even handle ur shots.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

These guys in the doubles werent that high level, dunno how it would work against high level players, its placed pretty well but the speed is probably only around 80-90mph, don't think that would be enough against rly good players, need to test it out and see when I have the chance, usually against rly good players I hit faster and aim more conservatevely so if I misshit a bit wide it can be an ace, but if not it has enough speed so they can't attack or possible that they make an error or give a short ball.

I can confirm after having aced and forced many errors and weak balls off of multiple 5.0 players that it is sufficient to hit a wide slice at 80 mph. You should mix up the pace a bit, but not to the point where you can't control where it is going. If you can't still aim close to the corner (maybe a foot or two from each line), it's too wild to be used.

I mean if they are not that much weaker yea, I agree, I was mostly talking about when you play with a friend casually or so, and the friend is like WAY WAY weaker and can't even handle ur shots.

Then why am I hitting a topspin groundstroke to them?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

You are missing my point. I already know all of the above.

What I am arguing against is the advice to swing differently in matches as opposed to practice. What I am saying is that you make that determination of what your max speed that you can consistently keep it in in practices and then consciously drop that speed in practices itself by a certain amount so that you are not changing anything in real games.

Now if you are consciously trying to increase your rhs then do those specific drills. But in parallel whatever your current comfortable speed is in games, you have to practice that way.

I didn't say you should swing slower in matches than in practice. I am saying it's a good idea instead to practice mindfully, to use practice to swing at the speed where you have control and accuracy, instead of trying to max out. Maxing out is good early on for stroke development but once you have a decent groundstroke, it's time to move on to practicing accuracy instead.

 

[mcs1970]

I didn't say you should swing slower in matches than in practice. I am saying it's a good idea instead to practice mindfully, to use practice to swing at the speed where you have control and accuracy, instead of trying to max out. Maxing out is good early on for stroke development but once you have a decent groundstroke, it's time to move on to practicing accuracy instead.

Honestly I didn’t even look up who stated to reduce power levels in matches because I am 100% sure I have repeated that too.

What you are saying above is spot on. Practice your strokes the same way you intend to play in real games.

 

[Bender]

I don't hit short and if I do the ball has alot of spin and bounces very deep, but my coach doesn't need to run to chase balls, this drill is such that only I do the running.

Example:

Coach is on the deuce side, im on the deuce side.
She hits crosscourt and I hit crosscourt with my forehand, then she hits DDL and I run to the backhand side and hit DDL, then she hits CC and I run to the other side and hit CC, then she hits DDL etc...

Seriously if you ever find a way to replicate that in a match, let me know. I hit some great shots in rallies and then I lose like 30% of my spin and pace during sets unless I have a "**** it" approach to the game (which admittedly ends up yielding better results in a lot of points). I can never win the longer points, not because I miss first but because the other guy ends up dictating or hits a great shot--often by accident.

 

[Dan Huben]

For me, the balls the coach gives have a certain rhythm to them. You can miss and the drill continues at the same rhythm. In match play, if you miss, everything resets. Since we miss a lot, we reset all of the time.

Also in match play, I tend to be a lot more specific with the target whether I'm set up properly or not. In practice, I can miss and then retry on a fresh feed.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

[Brandwun]

This thread is so relevant to me. This is my first time playing organized tennis and joined a 3.5 league at a local club. Went on a huge losing streak, last two weeks matches going 3-6, 0-6, and 0-6, 0-6. The players were very consistent, and I couldn’t figure out strategy wise or form wise what was going on.

This week I decided to not overthink or over analyze in the middle of my match. As I was warming up I noticed how cleanly I was hitting just being loose and relaxed. Decided that that was the only thing I was going to focus on this match.

I made it a point to focus on breathing evenly, exhaling during my strokes and staying calm and keeping my eye on the ball. I won 6-1, 6-1.

Very small sample size, not sure how next week will go, but I feel like something unlocked within me about how to play tennis. Similar epiphanies were when I started hitting topspin cleanly and using kinetic chain. Hope this advice helps since I know exactly how you feel about playing worse in matches! Good luck!

 

[dominikk1985]

Just interested what everyone thinks why this is the case.

For example im doing alot of hitting on the run in the last few weeks and are improving constantly, when I practice like 1-1 where I hit a forehand, then get a backhand in the other corner, then forehand from the other corner again etc... and similar drills like this, and its not like the balls are placed softly and great, sometimes im having to really dig for them or hit on the pure sprint, they are not easy balls and im also hitting quite hard with very good racquet speed.

And im getting better and better at it, and I can get many exchanges going, many times we get to 20-30 balls or even more

Well in a match for example, its not NEARLY as good, of course it is slowly improving also, but im wondering why you think the shot tolerance is so much lower in actual matches, since its not like im hitting easy feeds down the middle, but actually difficult balls, and not only these on the run, many similar match scenario balls, deep balls, short balls etc etc.. and in a match the tolerance is MUCH lower.

I know it will improve with time, both of these things will, they already are improving, so this is not a thread where im asking for help about this issue, because im pretty sure this is pretty much true for every player out there, im just particularly wondering why you think this is the case?

Some theories when I think about it:

-Practicing these things you are loose and not nervious and uncaring if you miss so you can really swing freely and relaxed, while in a match you might be tighter because theres something on the line, points that you want to win
-Perhaps in practice ur more focused on hitting quality balls but consistent balls and your goal is getting as much exchanges as possible while in a match in the back of ur head ur always thinking how to push ur opponent somehow or force errors from him somehow instead of how to get as much exchanges as possible, thats not really your main focus, this seems to be a huge difference in mentality and can affect shot tolerance alot I guess
-Could also be that in practice in most such drills you know where the next ball will be and what ur goal is clearly (to get as much exchanges) while in a match you have no clue where the ball will be hit left, right, short, deep.. and you also have to be making decisions on the spot since you don't have 1 goal in mind (keep the ball in and work on consistency) but you have to think about many different options, ball is hit there.. what are my options, what is the best shot to hit now? etc..

These 3 things seem pretty accurate, maybe something else also?

One reason is that the opponent tries to hurt you with pace and making you run with placement whole in practice you feed your partner.

Intensity matters, just like baseball players hit better in bp facing 60 mph fastballs down the middle than hitting 100 mph fastballs and 85 mph solides in Games. Or basketball Players Hit open Shots better Than defended in games.

Many people overesitmate the intensity of their practice and underestimate the pace otheir