Some Advice Please on Doubles Net Play

kenshireen

Professional
I play doubles, although I was raised as a singles player... I like staying back... but unfortunately in doubles that is not always possible.

When my partner serves I am at the net..balls that are hit at me (not particularly hard) I tend to slap down at... other balls pass with a foot or two and I don't move for it. I feel as if my feet are glued to the ground... I am a decent 3.5 but on the net shots I don't seem to get any rhythm. I do try to watch the ball leave the opponents racket..I focus..but don't hit the ball out front.

I am 62 but am in very good condition..fast on my feet when moving.. but when standing flat footed at the net..it's like I glued to the ground

Any advice would be appreciated
Ken
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Try executing a split step as the receiver is hitting their return. Also move left or right as you see where your partner's serve bounces -- if, for example, it it goes out wide, take one step (or 2) to cover the alley.


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Solat

Professional
you might try setting up where you are comfortable and then taking one or two steps backward.

When the serve is hit you walk in and split as the return is hit so that you are guaranteed to be active and not stuck in one spot
 

Off The Wall

Semi-Pro
Invest in some volleying lessons. That will give you a technical foundation. Then it's likely you'll see your opponents' shots as opportunities instead of with apprehension.

As always, practice makes better.
 

ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
I've spent a lot of money to solve these problems! Still spending as a matter of fact.

Get with a pro and tell him your problem. My last session, my pro really helped me with postioning...how and when to attack balls. It working!
 
Invest in some volleying lessons. That will give you a technical foundation. Then it's likely you'll see your opponents' shots as opportunities instead of with apprehension.

As always, practice makes better.



I agree with this - I played doubles for a long time before doing this, then a very good pro taught me in about five minutes that I didn't use good technique on my vollies, which from your description I can tell you don't either.

It doesn't take long to learn the right way, then you will love being at the net, since the volley can really be an easy shot - we make it harder than it should be.

Volleying out in front is very important, as is having the right grip and the right motion and footwork.

The advice on the split step was very good as well.
 

Nellie

Hall of Fame
For players at 3.5, I find that moving closer to the net will improve your volley results, because you will have less chance for errors (since even bad shots off your racquet will fall into the court). Of course, this will open you up for passing shots and lobs.
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Here, try this...

...I know you're a 3.5, but this may lead you in what, IMHO, is the right direction.

In men's doubles at the 4.5 level and above, there's some givens:

- Serve and volley on both serves.

- Chip and charge whenever possible. Keep the return down, make the server stretch for the volley, try to get up to net with your partner ASAP. One up/one back is a clear invitation to the other team...want a point? Just hit through the diagonal! On the other hand, if the other team knows anything about volleying and can get to the net together, assuming you and you partner elect to stay together...but on the baseline....you just lost the match. The score might be 6-4, 7-6 or 6-2, 6-3, or whatever, but you just gave away the crown jewels.

- Court positioning/strategy is not necessarily what everybody thinks, and some of this came out in the preceding comments. As one of my coaches said, "In doubles, each person has a job", to whit:

- Server. Serving from way out near the singles lines is not really a good idea. You've just telegraphed that you're going wide on your serves...and if you're not, the serve in the duece court down the T is going to be a hazard, because it'll break into your opponent rather than tailing away. If you're serving from way out, you've also just left your partner with two unenviable choices: (1) Move over to cover the hole down the middle, and give up way too much space down the line, or (2) leave the hole down the middle open...and you can mail in the results of the match, see above. Serving from a little wider than your normal service position for doubles is fine...but if you can't hit a variety of serve directions/spins from there, go work on your serve, don't go stand way out somewhere.

If you're not going to serve and volley, serve, hit the first groundstroke, and move in. If you put it off any longer than that, your partner is stranded, the other team just took over the net, and you just lost. Obviously, a good forcing serve is essential...but as others have noted, you'd better get in at least 70% of your first serves, or...you lose.

- Server's partner. Most important player on the court. On every point, the server's partner, who is at the net, should either be faking or poaching. This means you gotta communicate with your partner, either via a strategy discussion before the point or via signals. You make the "poach or not?" decision as a team before the point, so neither one of you gets surprised. So what if your partner has a 57 m.p.h helium ball for a serve? Well, you do a lot of faking, and resolve to work on the serve next week in practice. You're also governed by what your opponents do, however. If the other team returns a 57 m.p.h helium ball to the same spot every time...well, I'd think about poaching. Stand maybe a racket and half's length from the net, in the middle of the service box. Yeah, you'll give up a little of the line...but the middle of the service box is just your starting point. You're allowed to move, once the point starts, if you see the returner winding up for a bullet down the line. And you're never gonna be able to poach effectively if you stand over on the singles sideline.

- Returner. Okay, I'll say it again: A doubles return is different than a singles return. Doubles is a different game than singles. All I ever play, any more, is singles, so if I wind up playing doubles, I know it's going to take me at least a set or two to get the movement, strokes, strategy and rhythm back on track.

In ATP tennis, most of the guys play Andy Roddick Smashball, where you hammer a serve, the returner tries to hit heavy crosscourt through the court, and then we settle down for some heavy-duty long range artillery with 100 m. p. h. backhands and forehands. There is a trickle down effect all the way to most public parks/NTRP/high school tennis: everybody bangs the big serve, the returner goes for a heavy topspin return, and you're off the the races. In doubles, get lots of returns back (there are two guys on the other side of the net, and they're supposed to win their serves), make the other team move and stretch, and keep the ball down. I love people who belt a return off my serve that ends up going a 100 m. p. h. three feet over the net. Response: angled volley at the net man's right hip, point over.

When you get a break in doubles, it's rarely at love. Usually, you get to 30-30, and scratch together a couple of winning points to get the break. Therefore, assuming you're both righties, who has the better backhand return in the ad court? Because at 30-40 or 40-30, you need to get the return back so you can break...and in high school tennis, the chances are you're going to see a wide serve out to the backhand. It's also a reason why if one of you has a streakier return, put that person in the duece court. If you get a winning return in the deuce court, Mr. Steady in the ad court can then finish off the job. The reverse strategy doesn't work as well.

- Returner's partner. The guy in the Danger Zone. If your partner hits a duck return, guess who's going to see the ball next? Answer: you, and the ball's going to be trying to dig you another navel. Returner's partner starts off on the service line, halfway between the center line and the singles sideline...and you're facing the server's partner...because if there's any trouble, that's where it's going to come initially. After the point gets started, follow the ball, and stay with your partner...
 

smirker

Hall of Fame
...I know you're a 3.5, but this may lead you in what, IMHO, is the right direction.

In men's doubles at the 4.5 level and above, there's some givens:

- Serve and volley on both serves.

- Chip and charge whenever possible. Keep the return down, make the server stretch for the volley, try to get up to net with your partner ASAP. One up/one back is a clear invitation to the other team...want a point? Just hit through the diagonal! On the other hand, if the other team knows anything about volleying and can get to the net together, assuming you and you partner elect to stay together...but on the baseline....you just lost the match. The score might be 6-4, 7-6 or 6-2, 6-3, or whatever, but you just gave away the crown jewels.

- Court positioning/strategy is not necessarily what everybody thinks, and some of this came out in the preceding comments. As one of my coaches said, "In doubles, each person has a job", to whit:

- Server. Serving from way out near the singles lines is not really a good idea. You've just telegraphed that you're going wide on your serves...and if you're not, the serve in the duece court down the T is going to be a hazard, because it'll break into your opponent rather than tailing away. If you're serving from way out, you've also just left your partner with two unenviable choices: (1) Move over to cover the hole down the middle, and give up way too much space down the line, or (2) leave the hole down the middle open...and you can mail in the results of the match, see above. Serving from a little wider than your normal service position for doubles is fine...but if you can't hit a variety of serve directions/spins from there, go work on your serve, don't go stand way out somewhere.

If you're not going to serve and volley, serve, hit the first groundstroke, and move in. If you put it off any longer than that, your partner is stranded, the other team just took over the net, and you just lost. Obviously, a good forcing serve is essential...but as others have noted, you'd better get in at least 70% of your first serves, or...you lose.

- Server's partner. Most important player on the court. On every point, the server's partner, who is at the net, should either be faking or poaching. This means you gotta communicate with your partner, either via a strategy discussion before the point or via signals. You make the "poach or not?" decision as a team before the point, so neither one of you gets surprised. So what if your partner has a 57 m.p.h helium ball for a serve? Well, you do a lot of faking, and resolve to work on the serve next week in practice. You're also governed by what your opponents do, however. If the other team returns a 57 m.p.h helium ball to the same spot every time...well, I'd think about poaching. Stand maybe a racket and half's length from the net, in the middle of the service box. Yeah, you'll give up a little of the line...but the middle of the service box is just your starting point. You're allowed to move, once the point starts, if you see the returner winding up for a bullet down the line. And you're never gonna be able to poach effectively if you stand over on the singles sideline.

- Returner. Okay, I'll say it again: A doubles return is different than a singles return. Doubles is a different game than singles. All I ever play, any more, is singles, so if I wind up playing doubles, I know it's going to take me at least a set or two to get the movement, strokes, strategy and rhythm back on track.

In ATP tennis, most of the guys play Andy Roddick Smashball, where you hammer a serve, the returner tries to hit heavy crosscourt through the court, and then we settle down for some heavy-duty long range artillery with 100 m. p. h. backhands and forehands. There is a trickle down effect all the way to most public parks/NTRP/high school tennis: everybody bangs the big serve, the returner goes for a heavy topspin return, and you're off the the races. In doubles, get lots of returns back (there are two guys on the other side of the net, and they're supposed to win their serves), make the other team move and stretch, and keep the ball down. I love people who belt a return off my serve that ends up going a 100 m. p. h. three feet over the net. Response: angled volley at the net man's right hip, point over.

When you get a break in doubles, it's rarely at love. Usually, you get to 30-30, and scratch together a couple of winning points to get the break. Therefore, assuming you're both righties, who has the better backhand return in the ad court? Because at 30-40 or 40-30, you need to get the return back so you can break...and in high school tennis, the chances are you're going to see a wide serve out to the backhand. It's also a reason why if one of you has a streakier return, put that person in the duece court. If you get a winning return in the deuce court, Mr. Steady in the ad court can then finish off the job. The reverse strategy doesn't work as well.

- Returner's partner. The guy in the Danger Zone. If your partner hits a duck return, guess who's going to see the ball next? Answer: you, and the ball's going to be trying to dig you another navel. Returner's partner starts off on the service line, halfway between the center line and the singles sideline...and you're facing the server's partner...because if there's any trouble, that's where it's going to come initially. After the point gets started, follow the ball, and stay with your partner...

Great post, thanks. This has opened my eyes to what I am doing wrong in my doubles matches. Hanging back too much. For me it is even more imperative to get to net quickly as I play on grass.

Need to work on my approach skills though. Struggle big time with the first volley especially if its low. Any pointers on that?

Seriously though really enjoyed reading the post. Will bear it in mind for forthcoming cup final I have.
 

LuckyR

Legend
For players at 3.5, I find that moving closer to the net will improve your volley results, because you will have less chance for errors (since even bad shots off your racquet will fall into the court). Of course, this will open you up for passing shots and lobs.

If the 62 year old OP is playing others in his age group I guarantee there are lob masters in his community who will devastate this approach.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
If you're slapping at your volleys as you described it, I think you could stand to get a lesson and get your technique squared away. I have to teach kids and beginner adults how to volley routinely and the shots can be rather counter intuitive if you've been a long time baseliner. While you typically look to hit strokes with topspin, routine volleys are actually backspin shots and instead of using an active arm like you would in the backcourt, a lot of the energy in a volley is derived from the footwork that you employ to take the racquet (and the rest of you) through the ball while your arm stays relatively quiet and firm.

You can experiment in your hitting sessions by going to the net and volleying lightly while holding the racquet up on the throat. Your optimum contact point will be roughly straight out in front of your chest where you can comfortably take the racquet either right-to-left or left-to-right across your torso - this is easier when you're turned at least 45 degrees to your forehand or backhand side when you hit the ball. Holding the racquet that way ought to force you to start the racquet out in front of you and finish there, too with minimal swinging and almost no wrist action. If you want to give the ball a good nudge, use an assertive side step forward as you hit. The pop in a good volley comes from your legs, not an overactive arm or wrist.
 
I play doubles, although I was raised as a singles player... I like staying back... but unfortunately in doubles that is not always possible.

When my partner serves I am at the net..balls that are hit at me (not particularly hard) I tend to slap down at... other balls pass with a foot or two and I don't move for it. I feel as if my feet are glued to the ground... I am a decent 3.5 but on the net shots I don't seem to get any rhythm. I do try to watch the ball leave the opponents racket..I focus..but don't hit the ball out front.

I am 62 but am in very good condition..fast on my feet when moving.. but when standing flat footed at the net..it's like I glued to the ground

Any advice would be appreciated
Ken

Think to yourself that the ball will come to you or you will come to the ball, every time, every time. It is your responsibility to cut off the returns and volley well enough to win the point eventually by maintaining and building on your advantage. If you fail to do so, it is YOUR fault if your partner gets his/her serve broken.
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Thanks, glad this was helpful...

Great post, thanks. This has opened my eyes to what I am doing wrong in my doubles matches. Hanging back too much. For me it is even more imperative to get to net quickly as I play on grass.

Need to work on my approach skills though. Struggle big time with the first volley especially if its low. Any pointers on that?

Seriously though really enjoyed reading the post. Will bear it in mind for forthcoming cup final I have.

...BTW, the coach who taught me this stuff...he did a two hour doubles clinic with a bunch of us...was Dave Hodge, an Aussie who played #2 at Baylor, made it into the main draw of the Aussie open in doubles, was a Men's Assistant Coach at CU Boulder (that's when he also coached me...), Men's Assistant at Stanford, and is now one of the National coaches for Tennis Australia.

Low volleys are everybody's nemesis. Here's some thoughts:

- Don't let your opponents give you any accursed low volleys! I know this sounds simplistic, but S&V starts with the serve. Especially in doubles, you're not generally trying to hit aces or even service winners on the first serve. Instead, what you want is a high percentage first serve (70% or more) that forces the returner to hit returns that float up to you (or better yet, your partner). This'll vary with the returner, obviously. Some people give you a helium ball return off a flat serve, other people will crush it right through you. Same goes for kick vs. slice serves, and obviously, most people have a side they favor for returns...and one they don't like so much. So try to give yourself the best volley you can most of the time, for starters.

- Second, speed and good footwork can keep a lot of volleys from getting too low. As Dave used to say, S&V is a race, not a stroll toward the net, followed by a clean split step, followed by a clean volley, followed by another move to close in to the net.

- Third if ya gotta hit a low volley, then ya gotta get down to it...yes, by bending your knees, and you have to hit the ball with a clean volley stroke (racket head up, no dropping the racket head to scoop the ball)...if at all possible. Dave is the quintessinal Aussie S&V artist, and he's got scars on the knuckles of his right hand from getting down to a bazillion low volleys...and making them! In addition, as Dave used to say, "The best volleyers in the world take very little backswing...and they take too much backswing." Always true but as you get closer to the net and/or the ball gets lower, use less backswing (but still "stick" the ball with a clean follow through.)

- Next, if you're gonna play S&V, there are two other shots you need, namely an overhead and a half-volley. There's a lot of theories about the technique of a half-volley. I hit it with a Continental grip on both sides, off the rise, and keep the stroke short, just like a volley. That way, if at the last instant I see I can't quite hit a volley, the whole thing turns into a half-volley, no problem.

- Finally, mentally and physically, go after the low volley, just as you would an easier shot, don't let it play you. A lot of S&V is an attacking attitude. Once you've move forward off the baseline, you're in attack mode, so stay that way...
 

smirker

Hall of Fame
...BTW, the coach who taught me this stuff...he did a two hour doubles clinic with a bunch of us...was Dave Hodge, an Aussie who played #2 at Baylor, made it into the main draw of the Aussie open in doubles, was a Men's Assistant Coach at CU Boulder (that's when he also coached me...), Men's Assistant at Stanford, and is now one of the National coaches for Tennis Australia.

Low volleys are everybody's nemesis. Here's some thoughts:

- Don't let your opponents give you any accursed low volleys! I know this sounds simplistic, but S&V starts with the serve. Especially in doubles, you're not generally trying to hit aces or even service winners on the first serve. Instead, what you want is a high percentage first serve (70% or more) that forces the returner to hit returns that float up to you (or better yet, your partner). This'll vary with the returner, obviously. Some people give you a helium ball return off a flat serve, other people will crush it right through you. Same goes for kick vs. slice serves, and obviously, most people have a side they favor for returns...and one they don't like so much. So try to give yourself the best volley you can most of the time, for starters.

- Second, speed and good footwork can keep a lot of volleys from getting too low. As Dave used to say, S&V is a race, not a stroll toward the net, followed by a clean split step, followed by a clean volley, followed by another move to close in to the net.

- Third if ya gotta hit a low volley, then ya gotta get down to it...yes, by bending your knees, and you have to hit the ball with a clean volley stroke (racket head up, no dropping the racket head to scoop the ball)...if at all possible. Dave is the quintessinal Aussie S&V artist, and he's got scars on the knuckles of his right hand from getting down to a bazillion low volleys...and making them! In addition, as Dave used to say, "The best volleyers in the world take very little backswing...and they take too much backswing." Always true but as you get closer to the net and/or the ball gets lower, use less backswing (but still "stick" the ball with a clean follow through.)

- Next, if you're gonna play S&V, there are two other shots you need, namely an overhead and a half-volley. There's a lot of theories about the technique of a half-volley. I hit it with a Continental grip on both sides, off the rise, and keep the stroke short, just like a volley. That way, if at the last instant I see I can't quite hit a volley, the whole thing turns into a half-volley, no problem.

- Finally, mentally and physically, go after the low volley, just as you would an easier shot, don't let it play you. A lot of S&V is an attacking attitude. Once you've move forward off the baseline, you're in attack mode, so stay that way...

Great stuff, thanks. I have a lot to work on. Learning tennis as a junior my hand/eye co-ordination was always very good but I have never had the footwork to match. I am no slouch around the court but just don't have "fast feet" This is probably not going to improve significantly now(I,m 34) but I realise now I need to be more aggressive to win consistently.

My main issue with low volley is as you say not getting down to the shot. I know I shoud do it but still find my self dropping the racquet head to meet the ball instead of bending my knees to get down to it. I often find the ball bouncing over the top of the racquet on half volleys:oops: which I guess is a timing issue

Started playing squash recently which I hope will help my foot speed and getting down to the ball.

Once again thanks for your help. I'll try to implement some of it and report back how I get on:)
 
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skiracer55

Hall of Fame
You're headed in the right direction...

Great stuff, thanks. I have a lot to work on. Learning tennis as a junior my hand/eye co-ordination was always very good but I have never had the footwork to match. I am no slouch around the court but just don't have "fast feet" This is probably not going to improve significantly now(I,m 34) but I realise now I need to be more aggressive to win consistently.

My main issue with low volley is as you say not getting down to the shot. I know I shoud do it but still find my self dropping the racquet head to meet the ball instead of bending my knees to get down to it. I often find the ball bouncing over the top of the racquet on half volleys:oops: which I guess is a timing issue

Started playing squash recently which I hope will help my foot speed and getting down to the ball.

Once again thanks for your help. I'll try to implement some of it and report back how I get on:)

...note following:

- You can get faster. I just turned 60 and I'm getting faster all the time. A lot of it is just general conditioning. I probably average 2 hours of hard tennis, 5 days a week, plus I do 75 plus miles on my road bike, plus weights, in the summer...in the winter, I'm a Masters alpine ski racer, so...more weightlifting, spin bike, on skis training or racing 4 days a week...so everybody can get faster, just make the effort. Squash will definitely help.

- "Good footwork" isn't the same thing as being faster. One of the things my coaches have always had me work on is footwork drills. They ain't fun, but the homework pays off. I can't remember the trainer who is famous for footwork drills, but I need to get his video/book and start using it.

- Good technique is essential. I always had a good volley and good netgame, but I needed to work on shortening my backswing on the volley...a 4 plus year project...and generally cleaning up the mechanics. My current coach is the former #2 player at CU, and in every two hour session, we always spend at least 15 minutes where he feeds me balls in one of the standard drills, which is I start at the T, hit a first volley, close halfway to the next, hit the next forcing volley, close all the way, finish the point with an angled volley. Your technique has to be good and automatic, because once you're in a match, you can't think about technique. True also of half-volleys...and all the other strokes.

- There's kind of two schools of serve and volley. The first is the Pete Sampras approach, where the first (and second) serve is generally so heavy and forcing that most returns float up so you can knife the first volley away for a winner. The second school is the Stefan Edberg/Pat Rafter approach, which is, hit a huge kick serve, wade in, and depend on your talent and reactions to do the job. Obviously, there's a lot of crossover. I've seen Pete wade in and hit some miracle volleys off his shoelaces, and I've seen Edberg and Rafter hit such a forcing serve that they could volley away the next ball with a ping pong paddle. But the mental aspect of the Edberg/Rafter school is important, and is best exemplified by one of my favorite sayings by the great teacher Peter Burwash: "Tennis is a series of controlled emergencies." Especially true of S&V.

To an extent, you can stay in the backcourt and color between the lines and not have to improvise or do anything unusual. Once you start heading for the net, however, you're putting yourself in harm's way, where you can either seize or lose the advantage very quickly. You fundamentally have to believe you've got enough instinct to come out on top in any net exchange. It really helps to love going to net. I do...do you?
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
skiracer your advice is great for people of greater skill level. the op needs to learn to volley and how to move around the net. although all levels should try to get to 2-up at the net he probably still needs to learn basics like when to come foward and when to get to 2 back. my advice take volley lessons and some double strategy lessons
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Agreed...

skiracer your advice is great for people of greater skill level. the op needs to learn to volley and how to move around the net. although all levels should try to get to 2-up at the net he probably still needs to learn basics like when to come foward and when to get to 2 back. my advice take volley lessons and some double strategy lessons

...that's kinda/sorta what I tried to say in my last post. I don't play a lot of doubles these days, I'm mostly a singles guy...but I can switch to doubles play pretty easily because my fundamentals are sound and I know what doubles is, as opposed to singles. And I hear what you're saying about the basics: ya gotta walk before you can run. However...if you're eventual goal is to do the 2-up at the net thing, I think it's possible to do it at just about any level, combining stroke work with strategy-through-point drills. If I were doing a weekend (morning and afternoon sessions) doubles clinic for say 3.5s and 4.0s, here's what I'd probably do:

- First morning, basically just stroke drills against ball machines. Last time I saw Dave Hodge was at a Nike clinic at Stanford last year before he left for Australia, and he used ball machines a lot, because it let him and his associate coaches focus on coaching instead of feeding...and, he could precisely control what kind of ball his campers were getting. So...just a quick refresher on forehand/backhand groundies, followed by lots of volley and overhead drills. I have a theory that the two cornerstone shots in tennis are the backhand volley and overhead. Why? Because if you can hit a backand volley, you can hit a slice groundstroke...and you can easily adapt this to a chip or block serve return, too. Overhead? Ya gotta have one, and if you can "serve" a ball that somebody else tosses, you can figure out a serve. In addition to just the mechanics, set up the ball machines so you can do stroke/movement drills, such as trios of backhand volley/forehand volley/backhand volley for each camper. That takes care of the morning, and now we've got a bunch of the basics all tuned up.

- Afternoon, first day, work on serve and return, the two most important shots in tennis. Why? If you can't serve, it doesn't matter how good your other strokes are...you'll never hold serve. And if you can't return, doesn't matter how good your serve is...you'll never break serve, and therefore you can't win. If all goes well, and we have enough time left, work into some simple S&V, chip and charge drills. First, start off with just singles opponents...too much going on with working on these new skills to try it out initially with 4 players on the court. One of the most important parts of this is that initially, serve, move, and return at 3/4 speed. Don't try to start off at full speed, or it'll just be slash and burn tennis. The server throws in a 3/4 pace serve, the returner hits an easy return right back to him, the server jogs easily in to the service line and hits a clean first volley. End of sequence, repeat in the other service box. Do two more reps, now the next two players come on court and do the same.

That's ambitious for a first day, so if it doesn't go quite that quickly, then the "afternoon first day" becomes morning second day. From there, you basically just start turning up the volume, adding two more players to the mix, and trying out different variations...Aussie formation, calling signals, working on poaching, and so forth.

So there's a progression that anybody can use to tune up the doubles skills and strategies...don't need somebody else to run a clinic, you can do it on your own. It ain't easy, most of the time, trying to manage something like this amongst your buddies, because most of the time, everybody justs wants to get out there and bang the snot out of the ball for beers and bragging rights. But it can be done, so give it a shot...
 

smirker

Hall of Fame
^^Sounds like you're the OP, but you're not. I scrolled up to check. What's going on here? :confused:

er, no I am not. Well spotted. I didn't think it was illegal to contribute to other people's posts?

I have gained some valuable insights from this thread and if I have offended any one by hyjacking I apologize:)
 

smirker

Hall of Fame
...note following:

- You can get faster. I just turned 60 and I'm getting faster all the time. A lot of it is just general conditioning. I probably average 2 hours of hard tennis, 5 days a week, plus I do 75 plus miles on my road bike, plus weights, in the summer...in the winter, I'm a Masters alpine ski racer, so...more weightlifting, spin bike, on skis training or racing 4 days a week...so everybody can get faster, just make the effort. Squash will definitely help.

- "Good footwork" isn't the same thing as being faster. One of the things my coaches have always had me work on is footwork drills. They ain't fun, but the homework pays off. I can't remember the trainer who is famous for footwork drills, but I need to get his video/book and start using it.

- Good technique is essential. I always had a good volley and good netgame, but I needed to work on shortening my backswing on the volley...a 4 plus year project...and generally cleaning up the mechanics. My current coach is the former #2 player at CU, and in every two hour session, we always spend at least 15 minutes where he feeds me balls in one of the standard drills, which is I start at the T, hit a first volley, close halfway to the next, hit the next forcing volley, close all the way, finish the point with an angled volley. Your technique has to be good and automatic, because once you're in a match, you can't think about technique. True also of half-volleys...and all the other strokes.

- There's kind of two schools of serve and volley. The first is the Pete Sampras approach, where the first (and second) serve is generally so heavy and forcing that most returns float up so you can knife the first volley away for a winner. The second school is the Stefan Edberg/Pat Rafter approach, which is, hit a huge kick serve, wade in, and depend on your talent and reactions to do the job. Obviously, there's a lot of crossover. I've seen Pete wade in and hit some miracle volleys off his shoelaces, and I've seen Edberg and Rafter hit such a forcing serve that they could volley away the next ball with a ping pong paddle. But the mental aspect of the Edberg/Rafter school is important, and is best exemplified by one of my favorite sayings by the great teacher Peter Burwash: "Tennis is a series of controlled emergencies." Especially true of S&V.

To an extent, you can stay in the backcourt and color between the lines and not have to improvise or do anything unusual. Once you start heading for the net, however, you're putting yourself in harm's way, where you can either seize or lose the advantage very quickly. You fundamentally have to believe you've got enough instinct to come out on top in any net exchange. It really helps to love going to net. I do...do you?

I do love coming to net as I play mainly on grass in the UK so net play is a pre-requisite for success. Having been brought up on hard courts and a baseline game it has been a long and hard transition to get to net more and I still don't do it enough. I am not a natural volleyer but have become more comfortable there through necessity. I can put volleys awaty with authority but the touch/finesse shots leave a little to be desired!
 

raiden031

Legend
I think volleying in doubles has become a real struggle for me. As I improved to 3.5, my game improved quicker in doubles than in singles. Then suddenly my doubles game stopped improving and my singles game really stepped up and surpassed it. I find now that in singles I am pretty consistent but in doubles I have so many botched volleys and I'm almost always in frustration mode when I play doubles. When I win its always a struggle no matter how weak the opponents.

I come to the net after just about every serve, and chip & charge whenever I get the chance. I have trouble setting up for volleys properly during competitive play (vs. practicing volleys on my ball machine), and I think that I have a tendency to hang deeper in the service box than I should. I think I do this because I have a hard time reacting when I am in the front third of the service box, so I often stay deeper if my opponent has an offensive or neutral shot, but come forward when he is on the defensive.

Another thing that is annoying is that I feel like my partners are always hitting overheads and putaway volleys and I NEVER get a chance to hit overheads and putaways. Its either I hit many good offensive shots that set them up and they don't return the favor, or I am unable to capitalize on opportunities because my positioning might be a little off.
 

skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Okay, try this...

I think volleying in doubles has become a real struggle for me. As I improved to 3.5, my game improved quicker in doubles than in singles. Then suddenly my doubles game stopped improving and my singles game really stepped up and surpassed it. I find now that in singles I am pretty consistent but in doubles I have so many botched volleys and I'm almost always in frustration mode when I play doubles. When I win its always a struggle no matter how weak the opponents.

I come to the net after just about every serve, and chip & charge whenever I get the chance. I have trouble setting up for volleys properly during competitive play (vs. practicing volleys on my ball machine), and I think that I have a tendency to hang deeper in the service box than I should. I think I do this because I have a hard time reacting when I am in the front third of the service box, so I often stay deeper if my opponent has an offensive or neutral shot, but come forward when he is on the defensive.

Another thing that is annoying is that I feel like my partners are always hitting overheads and putaway volleys and I NEVER get a chance to hit overheads and putaways. Its either I hit many good offensive shots that set them up and they don't return the favor, or I am unable to capitalize on opportunities because my positioning might be a little off.


- First of all, you say that you've progressed more in singles than in doubles. That's not unusual, nor is the reverse. Doubles is not two singles player who happen to be on the same side of the net, and it's a different game than singles. I play singles about 5 or 6 times a week from May through October; I might play doubles twice in the same period. And when I do, it's always a learning experience all over again for at least the first set. So unless you have unlimited amounts of time and desire to practice conscientously for both singles and doubles, you kind of have to pick your favorite and go in that direction.

- "Botched volleys", well, that could be a lot of things, including the movement issues you're talking about, but the chances are pretty good that at least some of it is technique-related. So let's just review good volley technique:

- Start with the ready position. Weight on the balls of the feet, hips over the feet, shoulders over the hips, head up, angles, knees, and hip joints flexed. Continental grip...no funky grips allowed!...for FH and BH volleys. Racket head up and out in front, very important because...

- ...on the stroke, you want to contact the ball out in front, and if your ready position doesn't have the racket out in front, you're not prepared, and it'll be harder to contact the ball out in front. Stroke is simple: turn shoulders (don't just bring the arm back) for power and control. "Turn the shoulders" is all you need for backswing. Step to the net with the front foot,
punch through the ball, finishing on the same side of the body that you started the stroke. Don't finish across the body, and don't swing! Don't carve under the ball, don't drop the racket head...just stick it with a short punch.

That's the stroke itself, the footwork getting to the volley is...short steps, follow the approach shot you just hit, split step as the ball comes off your opponent's racket...you're now in the ready position, and you know what to do next, see above. Why split step? Best example of "why split step" is a jump shot in basketball. Dribble, dribble, dribble, foot to foot, short steps...split step, jump up and forward, up and back, up and to either side, shoot...2 points! A split step sets you up to move in any direction, whereas if you end up on one foot, you're kind of hard-coded in terms of where and how efficiently you can move. One thing I finally realized about split step is that it's pretty light...balls of the feet, remember? If you clomp down heavily and flat-footed, you're now stuck to the court, and movement is harder, not easier.

So that's technique, and it sounds like you've got that part going on...but do go back up and brush up on the fundamentals with your ball machine. Now...you've got all that wired, but it's still not happening in a match situation. What gives? Well, it's simple: the ball machine is going to help you hit a bazillion great volleys because it hits to the same spot or spots every time. Your opponents, on the other hand, if they have a half a brain, are going to hit to a bazillion different spots to help you shank as many volleys as possible! Remember, no matter how good your technique is, your opponents have a vote, too, and they don't want you to hit volley winners.

What you have to do to figure this one out is start setting up, then read your opponent's shot, move accordingly, and knock off the volley. Proactive as opposed to reactive tennis, in other words. Best way to work on this is the standard one-on-one drill where both partners are on the "T" of the service line, and stay there, hitting volleys back and forth, where the objective is to hit clean volleys and keep the rally going, not to bang winners at each other. You're not hitting at your partner's feet, you're hitting full length, as if he was in the backcourt, and he intercepts the shot with his volley. The key to this one, and the key to proactive tennis in a volley exchange, is this: After you hit your volley, watch the ball track across the net and onto your opponent's racket face. If you watch the ball coming off his racket face, you've got a good idea of where it's going next, and guess what? If it doesn't come off his racket face, it ain't coming back!

- Okay, you were talking about movement and position as being a potential problem. We've talked about that some, the next drill hones those skills. This is also another standard drill, where your partner is on the baseline feeding you a series of 3 balls, one at a time. First ball, you're on the service line, at the T. You punch a first volley (deep, forcing, if possible, but always in...Nick Bolletieri says you should never miss a first volley), move forward, split step, more angle if you can on the next volley to open up the court, split step again, move all the way in, knock off the 3rd volley for an angle and a winner. Repeat, endlessly.

Finally, you said you often set up your partner for a winning volley or overhead, but it doesn't often go in the other direction. Guess what? That's doubles. I was watching the Men's Doubles USO final yesterday, and Pat McEnroe was talking about good doubles teams having complimentary (but not identical) skills. Most good doubles teams consist of a setup man and a closer. As long as you win the point, who cares? You won it as a team, which is the other aspect of doubles most people never get. You have to have a doubles strategy as a team, you can't just go out there thinking "Gee...I wonder where the Sam Hill my partner is going to serve this time, and what I'm gonna do when he does whatever he does." That doesn't mean you can't improve your volley/net playing skills and get in on the fun, too, but it does mean you and your partner ought to sit down at some point and figure out how to combine your skills in a winning strategy...
 

raiden031

Legend
skiracer,

Thanks for the advice. I think I have a good grasp on volley technique because when I practice with a ball machine or do cooperative volleying with a partner I do pretty well. Its just that I get too excited during match play and things break down.

With the thing about not getting putaway opportunities, its something I don't really understand because I play with a good variety of players and it feels the same with most of them. I can't figure out if its me or them. It seems when I watch other doubles matches from off the court everyone is getting lots of putaways. Maybe its a matter of perception, where I am only focusing on the negative experiences in doubles and ignoring the positive ones. I do know that confidence is an issue in doubles for me compared to singles.
 
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skiracer55

Hall of Fame
Okay, look at it this way...

skiracer,

Thanks for the advice. I think I have a good grasp on volley technique because when I practice with a ball machine or do cooperative volleying with a partner I do pretty well. Its just that I get too excited during match play and things break down.

With the thing about not getting putaway opportunities, its something I don't really understand because I play with a good variety of players and it feels the same with most of them. I can't figure out if its me or them. It seems when I watch other doubles matches from off the court everyone is getting lots of putaways. Maybe its a matter of perception, where I am only focusing on the negative experiences in doubles and ignoring the positive ones. I do know that confidence is an issue in doubles for me compared to singles.

...this is something I do with my Masters ski racing buddies every year, and most of them really don't get what I'm talking about. But here it is: What are your goals in tennis? If you want to play well in doubles, at any level, that's a toughie, in my opinion. In terms of tournament and other serious play, I'm strictly a singles player any more. The best doubles team, currently, is the Bryan brothers. They're absolutely on the same page with each other in terms of what they're (collectively) trying to do, how, and when to win a match. If you want to do well in doubles, you have to find a simpatico partner and figure out how to win matches, and tournaments, together. It's that simple. I pretty much stick to singles, because I can control all the variables on my side of the net.


#2, if you're the odd man out with 4 players on the court, it's because they're playing aggressively and you're playing passively. If you can, talk to your partner, whoever it happens to be, and say something like "Hey...I have a volley, too, and also an overhead, so let's start using it!" And if that doesn't work...well, just wade in and start going for every ball that comes over the net...that'll establish you as a Major Player on your side of the net...
 

MTXR

Professional
I always have the mindset when i am at the net to always be looking for a way to attack the ball... keeps me active at the net..
 

kv123

Rookie
Everyone starts like this when first playing doubles. The more you play the more you get used to net and lose your fear. You've never done it and the balls seem fast so it freezes you. Over time you get used to the pace and become more daring and going for the volleys. Also you may want to get a strong doubles partner who will set-you up so you can get the feel for being at net.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
For players at 3.5, I find that moving closer to the net will improve your volley results, because you will have less chance for errors (since even bad shots off your racquet will fall into the court). Of course, this will open you up for passing shots and lobs.

Why do you say it will open you up to passing shots? I understand the lob part, but the closer you are to net, the better you cut off the passing angles if you are in the proper position.
 
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