Some perspective on Nadal

[unjugon]

I won´t lie, I try to watch Nadal as much as possible. I like him.
But I´ll try to be objective. He has his little annoying tics, takes too long to serve, takes him too much energy to win points, some of his shots are rather ugly, he is sometimes ineffective with the serve, and many times with the return, especially the forehand return after a first serve. Also, I am with the people that think he is likely to be injured for a few months every year. And lastly, there´s the shadow of doping on him. He seems to be almost too fit. He runs as much as anybody every single point...and still is the more fresher of the 2 players in a 5 setter? Who buys this? Big shadow there.

Having said that, I think he is underrated in this forum and in general...the target of lots of praise, true, but also of lots of trashtalk. I have been following the pro tour for like 10 years -and Nadal since early 2004, and my opinion of the guy is as follows:

-He will have a greater career than Federer. As good as Fed is now, Nadal will be even more of a legend in the future, when he is gone from the game. The mere sound of his name will make people pay attention and shiver at the sight of him running around the court in a picture stuck in memmory. Kinda like Braveheart. "He killed 50 people!...no, no, a hundred!"

-He is the toughest mentally...that I have seen. Tight? Nadal doesn´t get tight. He sometimes starts slow, and there are matches now and then where he looks ordinary. Nothing to do with nerves. Whoever watched the Nadal-Ljubicic final in Madrid can tell. Nadal looked in complete despair after the first 2 sets. Aces flying right past him left and right. He was really frustrated, and he turned it around. Make no mistake, the Madrid Masters Series courts are darn fast. I am not sure why Ljubicic goes on and on with the trashtalking: if he didn´t beat Nadal that day he won´t beat him ever, period.

-The proofs of how good he is/will be are right there, out in the public, and nobody seems to have noticed. The proofs are none other than Fed being scared of him only, and Agassi paying so much reverence to a damm kid.
Federer routinely beats everyone. It´s almost laughable. But from the first match between the 2, the swiss star has looked scared, unsure. He has found someone of equal value...or does Fed really think this? Truth is Fed ackowledged Nadal as someone special. Fed doubts he is the best player in this very moment, and knows the gap in the rankings will shrink, and the pressure will grow bigger. And Agassi? Notice how you never hear Roddick, or Djokovic, or Ljubicic...or Nalbandian praise Nadal? However, Agassi has been out there on tour for what, 18 years? He has seen and played hundreds of players. And yet he is astonished by this Nadal. Agassi himself seems scared just by talking about him. If they asked him now if Nadal is better than Becker was, than Edberg was, etc, what´d he say? He´d say "Yes" . Better than Federer or Sampras? That´s dubious, but I´d bet my house Agassi would be cautious not to count Nadal out, and wouldn´t say a straight "Federer", or "Sampras".

 

[tlm]

I didnt care for nadal at first,but after watching him the last couple of years i have to admire this kid.In every sport a special player comes along once in a while,in tennis it is nadal.

This kid is special he will dominate tennis in the near future.To me he brings so much excitement+energy to the game.I dont understand all the people on this site knocking him.

I have loved listening to all the detractors having to eat thier words,nadal can only play on clay+slow hardcourts.He will never do anything on grass,he is a pusher+on+on.

These same people that talk about fed being the g.o.a.t.,turn and say nadal is no good.There is no question about feds domination the last few years.That is why it is so remarkable that nadal has beat him in 4 finals this year.

As far as his play being ugly i dont understand that,this kid brings more excitement to the court than anybody.

Almost everytime i see him play he comes up with shots that seem impossible.He definitely make shots that nobody else can make.As you pointed out mentally he is unmatched,he is the future#1.

 

[SunFlash]

I dunno. I think nadal will improve over time and take the number 1 spot but until then ill keep rooting him on, VAMOS RAFA!!!!!!!!

 

[FEDEXP]

Well Unjugon, you cannot have instant history; by definition, it takes time. Who can say for sure what will happen?

 

[Moose Malloy]

He will have a greater career than Federer

I don't see that happening. But he has a chance to be the best Spanish player of all time. No Spaniard has made the Wimbledon final since Santana in '66.

He is the toughest mentally...that I have seen

Yes, that aspect is impressive. Esp considering how mentally fragile most top 10 players of the last 15 years have been.

was looking up to see how FO chamions have fared at W since Borg in '81.

These are the only reigning FO champions to go on to make (at least) the quarters of W since Borg:

Lendl '84/'86/'87
Wilander '88
Courier '91
Agassi '99
Nadal '06

 

[omniexist]

Ugly strokes? Ineffective serve?

What're you talking about? His strokes and serves have been very effective. His returns may not be ripping but they do come back.

Although, I agree he takes WAY too much time getting ready to serve.

As for being greater than Federer...hmm...dunno about that.

 

[dh003i]

Nadal's beaten Federer in 4 finals on clay. He hasn't proven he can even get to a final in another surface. Although I'm hoping he gets to the Wimbledon final this year -- he had the easiest draw -- because then we'll see why Federer's the best player in the world, as he demolishes Nadal on grass.

 

[tlm]

Nadal has beaten fed 2 times on hardcourts,one was this year at dubai,in a final.You fed fans keep leaving that out.

Must be hard to admit after most of you said nadal would not beat fed on hardcourt.

 

[dh003i]

TLM,

So what? Federer: 7 GS, 3 last year. Nadal: 2 GS, only 1 last year. Fed, 3 of the last 4 GS, Nadal 1.

Nadal isn't even in Federer's league on grass. Sorry, loser, he'd get his clock cleaned. Of course, what will probably happen is Nadal will get beaten, and then Federer will be whoever beats Nadal, or the person who beat the person who beat Nadal; and then the Nadal-fanboys will keep on bring up this ******** that Nadal would beat Fed if they played on grass.

The people who think Nadal has a chance of beaten Federer on grass are as stupid as nadalfangirl.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Although I'm hoping he gets to the Wimbledon final this year -- he had the easiest draw -- because then we'll see why Federer's the best player in the world, as he demolishes Nadal on grass.

you don't want that to happen. if nadal gets to the final, the gap between 1 & 2 will narrow, regardless of fed 'destroying' him since nadal lost 2nd round last year. and their rivalry will reach new levels, since it is on another surface.

also nadal being in the final would finally prove he is an all surface player. and pretty much make him a strong contender for any slam he enters in the next few years(since grass was always thought of as the most difficult for him, the us & australian opens will be much easier for him to adjust to)

and it would put him in some select company: lendl & agassi are the only reigning FO champs since Borg to reach the W finals. that would gain him a new level of respect from the media, fans, other players. I can only imagine the praise that John McEnroe & Mary Carillo will be showering him with should he make the final, regardless of the result. They will probably spend most of the final talking about nadal not federer, since this is such a rare & unexpected result.

 

[BERDI4]

TLM,
So what? Federer: 7 GS, 3 last year. Nadal: 2 GS, only 1 last year. Fed, 3 of the last 4 GS, Nadal 1.

How many GS did Fed won when he was Nadal's age?

 

[dh003i]

Moose,

Yes, and that would be completely idiotic, anyone talking about Nadal more than Federer in a Wimbledon final, since Federer has simply been in a class of his own throughout the entire event. As for the rankings, it would be a minor fallout, but Federer would wipe him out, and it would help him beat Nadal on clay and slow hard-courts as well. Federer has the most all-around game probably of any player ever; he certainly can handle Nadal, on any surface.

Of course, it's extremely unlikely to happen: Nadal was lucky to get this far, with a very very easy list of players to play against.

 

[dh003i]

How many GS did Fed won when he was Nadal's age?

You dimwitted Nadal fans keep bringing that up. Federer has a more complete and complex game -- every shot in the book -- and it took more time for it to mature. He also wasn't mentally tough at age 19. I think most of the greats with his kind of game matured around when he did.

Nadal's kind of game is in it's prime at his current age, due to it's physical nature.

In short, it is completely meaningless how many grand slams Federer won when he was 19. Nadal is in his prime now -- sorry, Nadal fanboys, he cannot last very long with his physically demanding game and frequent injuries, especially when he slows a step.

Both players are in their prime right now. Nadal isn't going to get better, but will most likely quickly get worse (like Hewitt, who's lost a step or two). Federer's game is built to last. In any even, with both of them basically in their prime right now, Federer owns 3 of the last 4 GS. Nadal hasn't even shown he can get to a GS final outside of RG, never-the-less win one.

 

[tlm]

So what,your the one telling the lies, if it doesnt mean anything then why lie about it?Nadal beat fed in a final this year on hardcourt, but you somehow left that out.

So after being caught in that lie,you have to compare gs titles even though that is not fair, being nadal has not been around half as long as fed.By the way nadal has 2 gs at 20 years old,fed had none at that age.

But the real stat that sticks out is nadal 6-1 over fed,there is no way of hiding from that one.That is why you fed lovers hate nadal so much,he has forever tarnished your god of tennis.

I never said nadal would beat fed on grass,anything is possible but i think fed would win on the grass.So what nadal has already surpassed everybodys expectations at wimbledon.

This is just a preview of what nadal will be doing on the hardcourts in the future,cant wait for that.Then it will be they slowed the hardcourts down for nadal.

You guys just keep hiding from the obvious that nadal will be taking over in the near future.

By the way do you have to call me names like loser i guess that shows your pretty upset+ cant face the truth. But i think that name applys more to fed when he plays nadal!!!!!!

 

[bluescreen]

u're both quiet immature. this went from a "perspective" of nadal (more like a personal opinion) to a senseless argument. just let time unravel and wait for what happens. there's no need to to make 5-paragraph posts explaining why someone is wrong for having his or her own opinion.

 

[tlm]

Ya it is dimwitted to compare something in a fair way.dhooi3 already knows nadal will not improve anymore .Were in the hell do you come up with this bs.

It apears he has already improved his serve in the last couple opf months+his backhand has also improved.But i guess that is it dhooi3 says that is the end of nadal improvement at the age of 20.

I guess nadal will go down for the rest of his playing days.He has peaked+that is it.This guy dhooi3 calls other people dimwhitted,thats pretty funny.

 

[FedererUberAlles]

Ya it is dimwitted to compare something in a fair way.dhooi3 already knows nadal will not improve anymore .Were in the hell do you come up with this bs.

It apears he has already improved his serve in the last couple opf months+his backhand has also improved.But i guess that is it dhooi3 says that is the end of nadal improvement at the age of 20.

I guess nadal will go down for the rest of his playing days.He has peaked+that is it.This guy dhooi3 calls other people dimwhitted,thats pretty funny.

You're not making yourself any less immature by trying to side with bluescreen and mock dh003i. You both need to sit back and respect each other's opinions.

 

[tlm]

To federeruberalles,check the comments i made.All i did was point out that fed lost to nadal on a hardcourt in a final,which is a fact.I did not start the name calling.

 

[FedererUberAlles]

To federeruberalles,check the comments i made.All i did was point out that fed lost to nadal on a hardcourt in a final,which is a fact.I did not start the name calling.

I didn't start name calling, sorry, you did, which was the problem with your post, even while you pointed out facts.

 

[Grimjack]

All i did was point out that fed lost to nadal on a hardcourt in a final,which is a fact.

The sand-mixed, high-bouncing clay-styled hardcourts of Dubai. On slowcourts, Nadal is awesome. On anything else, Fed would kill Nadal, if Nadal were anywhere near good enough on any first-world surface to get to a point where he could face Federer. On surfaces where one loses to Gilles Muller and James Blake, it's a foregone conclusion that Federer would stomp one into dust.

 

[Moose Malloy]

The sand-mixed, high-bouncing clay-styled hardcourts of Dubai.

Agassi said that Dubai was a fast hardcourt.

 

[bluescreen]

i think i heard the same thing about the dubai courts as well.

 

[dh003i]

tlm,

Sorry, Nadal won't be taking over the #1 spot as long as Federer is around. Federer is just too good on every surface except for clay.

And I was comparing their grand slams over the past rolling year -- perfectly fair.

3 grand slams to 1. That says it all.

 

[fastdunn]

Nadal isn't even in Federer's league on grass.

Nadal will exploit same thing he did on clay and hard courts:
Federer's backhand and somewhat slow lateral movement.

Federer will do better than he did on clay but same dymamics
of this match up between Federer and Nadal will happen
on this green clay of WImbledon....

 

[dh003i]

fastdunn,

Except Federer's weakness is a very small window -- his high backhand. Not the same with his low/mid backhand, which is a great shot. The balls bounce low at Wimbledon. Nadal won't be able to exploit anything.

Also, the speed -- even though they've completely destroyed the uniqueness of Wimbledon -- of the blal favors Federer's shot-making precision. And Federer moves better (actually, he also moves better than Nadal on clay; even Wilander said that in his critical interview on Fed).

 

[dingo]

I think Nadal has very difficult game style to carry on for many years into the future. He can run down every ball now, at 20. Great, but this game style is very physically demanding and everyone seems to make an assumption that it will not take any toll on this health in the long run. This is quite unreasonable expectation in my view. Fed, on the other hand, has way more efficient game style, style that I think better projects onto the future. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter if Fed can or can't beat Nadal, as it only matters how they both fair against the rest of the field. We all know how they both have faired in this department so far and I don't see Nadal dominating everyone like Fed has been any time soon.

 

[jaykay]

I'm a Fed fan. I like his technical prowess, fluid grace... he is an artist on the court and is truly poetry in motion.

Good post, however, 'unjugon', I liked your argument. Cannot deny that Nadal's speed and mental strength are way ahead of the rest of the pack. Concur with your observation on his ugly, almost clown-ish, off-balance strokes... but they seem to be darn effective on most occasions. This kid is REAL GOOD.

Unfrotunately, this thread later transmogrified itself into a flaming contest between Fed-lovers and Rafa-lovers.

Take it easy.

Peace, all.

 

[urban]

I think, Dubai was the same type of court as at the USO. Believe it or not, i give Nadal a chance against Federer. If it stays hot, and the court gets dry and dirty, it plays more and more like dirt. Look at the baseline now, not a halm of grass to be seen. It was exactly this kind of court, on which Borg won his fiirst Wimbledon.But i still would favor Hewitt over Nadal.

 

[Deleted member 4983]

Dubai is a fast surface, and Nadal DISPOSED of Federer on that surface. The Australian and French Open are locks for Nadal from now on. Nadal is already starting to figure out the grass and will soon win Wimbledon, if not in 2006 then next year.

 

[skip1969]

some "perspective" on nadal. HA! nice try, but every thread about nadal (or federer) ends up exactly the same, with most everyone trying desperately to hit each other over the head with their handbag! i usually try to ignore most threads on fed and nadal for that very reason. it's like the hatfields and mccoys, cat people and dog people, the democrats and the republicans . . . everyone too busy shouting and pointing fingers, and no one really LISTENING.

but to go back to the original poster, i don't think anyone is overlooking nadal. he gets plenty of press, plenty of props, and plenty of attention (on tour as well as on this board).

what will he become in the next few years?? WHO CAN SAY! no one, not even he can. so this endless back and forth is just speculation, speculation, speculation. it may be fun for some people on this board, but it's useless and usually ends up in a lot of petty squabbling and name-calling (which we don't need).

we cannot predict what will happen. all we know is what has passed. and as far as that goes, federer has PROVEN for the last few years that he is the best player in the world. you cannot argue that. he has the titles and the slams to prove it. he has CONSISTENTLY gotten to the latter stages of everything he enters.

now, nadal has come along and challenged him the way no other pro has. and that is great. he has proven himself to be the top contender to the throne, no doubt. but he is still PROVING himself, in terms of winning consistently on all surfaces against all opposition (not just federer).

and that's that, really. and time will tell who ends up doing better, winning more, lasting longer, etc. instead of b*tching about the top two players in the world, we should be grateful that they are each so different (in personality, in playing style, in just about every way) and enjoy the fact that we are seeing two players of such talent at the same time.

end of lecture. i thank you for your patience.

 

[ATXtennisaddict]

-He will have a greater career than Federer. As good as Fed is now, Nadal will be even more of a legend in the future, when he is gone from the game. The mere sound of his name will make people pay attention and shiver at the sight of him running around the court in a picture stuck in memmory. Kinda like Braveheart. "He killed 50 people!...no, no, a hundred!"

Just this part alone irks me.

 

[vicnan]

Federer and Nadal speak of each other with utmost respect. It is unfortunate their fans do not similarly respect the other player and his fans.

 

[skip1969]

Just this part alone irks me.

ahhh, but just think about all the laughs future generations and tennis historians will have once they stumble across the tennis warehouse forum archives and unearth the many jewels and "predictions" left for them here by the all-knowing tennis fortune-tellers who grace this board with their infinite wisdom!

 

[Tennis_Goodness]

Nadal is good and is going to make history for himself but I think Federer is always going to be the better player, just because I don't see Nadal changing the way he plays, unlike Federer who has had a complete all surface game since he started out.

 

[emcee]

Nadal is good but his window of opportunity to win Slams is pretty short. What happened to players like Chang, Coria, Hewitt, et al? They were all great players whose strengths were their wheels and their grit. They peak early and then they decline as they get older. Chang was a great player but really had no weapons until he beefed up his serve and got a net game, but that success didn't last long either. Coria is the same way. Hewitt has retooled his game, but does anything honestly think he'll be #1 again?

Players with an all-court game like Federer's take longer to mature. When someone can win a point with 3 different shots off a given ball, the choices can confuse him. But you know with the same ball Nadal is going to hit a heavy topspin shot as usual.

Nadal hits harder than his counterpunching predecessors. Which is why I think he'll have a great career...maybe 5 Slams: 4 French Opens and an Australian or a US Open. But Federer is just something else altogether.

If you've actually WATCHED some Wimbledon matches, you'd know that Fed is just ripping through everyone while Nadal is having some trouble. The ONLY way Nadal can beat Fed in a POSSIBLE final is if Fed is just so completely psyched out.

 

[tlm]

To emcee, Some of what you say is true,fed is winning easily+ nadal is having trouble.Fed had a little more trouble on the clay also.

But the grass court season is only 3 weeks out of the year. so to me it isnt that big of a deal.

I do not believe you can put nadal in with those other players mentioned,he is much better!

 

[fastdunn]

fastdunn,

Except Federer's weakness is a very small window -- his high backhand. Not the same with his low/mid backhand, which is a great shot. The balls bounce low at Wimbledon. Nadal won't be able to exploit anything.

Also, the speed -- even though they've completely destroyed the uniqueness of Wimbledon -- of the blal favors Federer's shot-making precision. And Federer moves better (actually, he also moves better than Nadal on clay; even Wilander said that in his critical interview on Fed).

It's the side spin that frustrates right hander's backhand.

I'm not saying Nadal will beat Federer on grass.
But Federer's baseline game will be neutralized by Nadal even if
it is on grass. And Federer does not really have answers outside
of baseline game.

Only way to beat Federer( shown by Nalbandian, Safin and Nadal) is
to take it to his backhand and move hime around at the baseline..
He anticipates extrememly well but supprisingly not good at routine
lateral movement from backhand to his forehand...

 

[typingchamp]

Nadal is good and is going to make history for himself but I think Federer is always going to be the better player, just because I don't see Nadal changing the way he plays, unlike Federer who has had a complete all surface game since he started out.

I'm not sure who will be the better player, but Nadal has already shown that he is willing to change the way he plays. Just look at how much he has adapted during this Wimbledon alone. Plus he is 20 years old.

Nadal is at least willing to finish points off at net, has flattened out his shots (especially those ripped backhands), and is serving with more pace. Will Nadal be as all-court as Federer? Probably not. But Nadal is not exactly stuck in his ways as this Wimbledon has shown. Nadal can and is evolving.

 

[typingchamp]

Nadal is good but his window of opportunity to win Slams is pretty short. What happened to players like Chang, Coria, Hewitt, et al? They were all great players whose strengths were their wheels and their grit. They peak early and then they decline as they get older. Chang was a great player but really had no weapons until he beefed up his serve and got a net game, but that success didn't last long either. Coria is the same way. Hewitt has retooled his game, but does anything honestly think he'll be #1 again?

Players with an all-court game like Federer's take longer to mature. When someone can win a point with 3 different shots off a given ball, the choices can confuse him. But you know with the same ball Nadal is going to hit a heavy topspin shot as usual.

Nadal hits harder than his counterpunching predecessors. Which is why I think he'll have a great career...maybe 5 Slams: 4 French Opens and an Australian or a US Open. But Federer is just something else altogether.

If you've actually WATCHED some Wimbledon matches, you'd know that Fed is just ripping through everyone while Nadal is having some trouble. The ONLY way Nadal can beat Fed in a POSSIBLE final is if Fed is just so completely psyched out.

Federer ripped through the French Open as well, until the finals. Nadal was challenged by even Mathieu.

I do think Federer is heavy favourite . . . but not for that reasoning.

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Sorry for double post, I tried to delete but couldn't figure out how.