Stats for 1984 AO SF: Sukova-Navratilova

[suwanee4712]

Agreed! Helena was a bit of shotmaker. Big serves, big volleys, big passes . She was streaky and she played better from behind or staying even than with the pressure of a lead. If she could relax a little, connect on a few, she had a shot at breaking Martina and sometimes Martina had trouble getting her passing shots grooved. Evert had less trouble with Helena because she made her hit more balls that Martina, had a better return, especially if the serve was predictable hard and flat, had inevitably played a lot more passing shots in prior rounds, and she was able to move Sukova around side to side and wrong foot her. Evert took full advantage of the Giraffe syndrome from the backcourt.

Chris always did well against tall serve volleyers like Court, Stove, Shriver, Sukova and Kodhe Kilch, getting her losses mostly outside her prime years ( 1974-1986) when her reactions slowed on that big serve return, and she had more trouble getting started and keeping focused. That single1986 loss by Sukova was the only one involving those 5 players, and it was literally at the very tail end of her 'prime time' Serve volleyers who with a low center of gravity, and more mobile like King, Jordan, Garrison etc gave her more trouble.

That's an excellent observation about players with a lower center of gravity having better success vs Chris.

For some reason as I read the part about the taller players, I had a flashback to Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks rolling logs at the tall, menacing, yet awkward Imperial Walkers knocking them off balance.

I suppose that might be because the taller players were dangerous and loaded with weapons. But against someone like Evert, they were often unsure of their feet beneath them and prone to be caught off balance.

 

[flutzingitaway]

Sukova did not have much success vs Evert as far as wins but she seemed to generally have more competitive matches than Shriver did. I think she had much better groundstrokes (minus approach shots, where both Shriver and Sukova had very good ones) and could atleast hang in rallies for awhile with Chris, and Sukova could also do damage with the forehand which was a complete 360 from Shriver (again minus the forehand approach where she could be deadly when coming in). While she was far from a stellar mover she still moved much better, both along the baseline and even at the net than Pam as well. So that is probably why the matches were closer, but still general wound up the loser just like Pam did.

I think Sukova doing well vs Martina was partly for the technical game related reasons BTURNER pointed out but also pscyhological. When Martina defected that apparently put Helena's Mom in a world of hurt and she later died of a brain tumor (not that I think the two are related). Sukova probably felt a mini grudge vs Martina which was unspoken and wanted to get up and deliver a blow to her in big matches. That probably also explains why she seemed to get up mainly only for big matches vs Martina and put her all into those, less for most other matches. Similar to how the pscyhological aspect vs Hana worked the opposite way, negatively for her.

It was too bad Helena could not win one of the 84 or 90 Australian Opens. Apparently Chris played poorly in the 84 Australian Open final, but was such a bad match up for Helena she won anyway. Helena's serve also completely fell apart in the 2nd and 3rd sets I think (and the forehand and forehand volley some too). She had a great shot to beat a badly off form Graf in the 90 Australian Open semis, in a match she herself was playing outstandingly and really better than Graf, but she choked in the final game otherwise might have pulled out a win. Then again Steffi had such a big psychological edge over her after 100 or something straight wins. I am pretty sure she would have beaten a green Mary Joe Fernandez in the final. U.S Open she made the final twice, but was realistically never winning either of those, maybe if Graf had converted her match points vs Martina in the 86 semis she had a small shot vs a young Graf in her first slam final, but Graf owned that match up so deeply from day 2 (minus their first match when Graf was 14 that Helena won, hence why I say Day 2 and not Day 1) so Graf probably still pulls out the win if that final happened, maybe a 3 setter. Maybe she had a shot at WImbledon 87 if she won that amazing match with Shriver, but again I doubt she beats her kryptonite Graf in the semis, if she somehow can beat Graf in the semis, she would have had a shot vs Martina in the final after just beating her at Eastbourne IMO.

 

[BTURNER]

That's an excellent observation about players with a lower center of gravity having better success vs Chris.

For some reason as I read the part about the taller players, I had a flashback to Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks rolling logs at the tall, menacing, yet awkward Imperial Walkers knocking them off balance.

I suppose that might be because the taller players were dangerous and loaded with weapons. But against someone like Evert, they were often unsure of their feet beneath them and prone to be caught off balance.

Well Evert makes you run, and run and run. She likes her strokes to hug the sidelines and she likes it if they hit at an angle pulling you even wider. Not a dream combination if you lumber about, more than you dart about.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Two other Sukova matches that were absolutely brilliant world be the 87 Wimbledon QF vs Shriver.

Sukova had match points in that match. As of the QF Suková was the 3rd favorite with bookies(after Martina and Graf), it was sort of a shame she didn't get to play Graf.

These two matches (the AO semi & the Eastbourne final) are a masterclass in women's tennis between two all out attackers. They alone would lead me to crown Sukova as the greatest slamless female player. Her returns, when on, are possibly the most devastating I've seen.

Her 86 matches against Martina & Chris at the French & Wimbledon are absolutely first rate as well. I think her biggest weakness may be that her serve wasn't big enough to compensate for her lack of mobility. She didn't get enough cheap points & she had to stay back on 2nd serves because the serve quality wasn't good enough.

Do you know of other quality matches of Helena @Moose Malloy ?

As already mentioned the 89 AO QF(Martina served for it twice) and the 90 AO SF are worth checking out. And whatever of her 93 USO run you can find, it was pretty shocking to see her in the final that year. I was at the 4R match with Martina(which ended up being her last USO match)

 

[PDJ]

Sukova did not have much success vs Evert as far as wins but she seemed to generally have more competitive matches than Shriver did. I think she had much better groundstrokes (minus approach shots, where both Shriver and Sukova had very good ones) and could atleast hang in rallies for awhile with Chris, and Sukova could also do damage with the forehand which was a complete 360 from Shriver (again minus the forehand approach where she could be deadly when coming in). While she was far from a stellar mover she still moved much better, both along the baseline and even at the net than Pam as well. So that is probably why the matches were closer, but still general wound up the loser just like Pam did.

I think Sukova doing well vs Martina was partly for the technical game related reasons BTURNER pointed out but also pscyhological. When Martina defected that apparently put Helena's Mom in a world of hurt and she later died of a brain tumor (not that I think the two are related). Sukova probably felt a mini grudge vs Martina which was unspoken and wanted to get up and deliver a blow to her in big matches. That probably also explains why she seemed to get up mainly only for big matches vs Martina and put her all into those, less for most other matches. Similar to how the pscyhological aspect vs Hana worked the opposite way, negatively for her.

It was too bad Helena could not win one of the 84 or 90 Australian Opens. Apparently Chris played poorly in the 84 Australian Open final, but was such a bad match up for Helena she won anyway. Helena's serve also completely fell apart in the 2nd and 3rd sets I think (and the forehand and forehand volley some too). She had a great shot to beat a badly off form Graf in the 90 Australian Open semis, in a match she herself was playing outstandingly and really better than Graf, but she choked in the final game otherwise might have pulled out a win. Then again Steffi had such a big psychological edge over her after 100 or something straight wins. I am pretty sure she would have beaten a green Mary Joe Fernandez in the final. U.S Open she made the final twice, but was realistically never winning either of those, maybe if Graf had converted her match points vs Martina in the 86 semis she had a small shot vs a young Graf in her first slam final, but Graf owned that match up so deeply from day 2 (minus their first match when Graf was 14 that Helena won, hence why I say Day 2 and not Day 1) so Graf probably still pulls out the win if that final happened, maybe a 3 setter. Maybe she had a shot at WImbledon 87 if she won that amazing match with Shriver, but again I doubt she beats her kryptonite Graf in the semis, if she somehow can beat Graf in the semis, she would have had a shot vs Martina in the final after just beating her at Eastbourne IMO.

Re the 84 AO final: John Lloyd couldn't comprehend how upset Evert was at how badly she felt she played given she'd won, and a major at that. However, he concluded that was the reason she was a great champion and not just a champion.
Her expectations of herself exceeded most mere mortals.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Re the 84 AO final: John Lloyd couldn't comprehend how upset Evert was at how badly she felt she played given she'd won, and a major at that. However, he concluded that was the reason she was a great champion and not just a champion.
Her expectations of herself exceeded most mere mortals.

my stats in this thread have Evert winning 66% of points on 1st serve and 52% of points on 2nd serve in the 84 final. Those aren’t bad numbers for her. She was at 58% and 46% in the 82 AO final that she won vs Martina(and was broken 5 times in that match, while only broken twice in 84 final). She also had 38 winners in 84, 19 in 82.