Staying in Points Longer

[HondaOdyssey]

I'm having trouble progressing from a 4.0 player to a 4.5 player. I hit a semiwestern forehand and a 2 handed backhand. My major weapon is consistency. I like to hit lots of crosscourt heavy topspin drives as a bread and butter shot, with slices and moonballs to take opponents out of their comfort zones. The only low percentage shots I ever hit are short, topspin angle shots to pull opponents wide. My net game is not spectacular, but I can effectively use it to end a point if I get an opportunity. My serves aren't very fast, and most of the time I focus on placement for both my first and second serves to setup points instead of getting aces.

Power baseliners at the 4.5 level that I play against seem to be completely undaunted against every single shot I have in my arsenal. My strategy against most opponents is to take them out of their comfort zone, and I just can't seem to shake a lot of the players at this level. No matter what kind of shot I hit, they always seem to be able to consistently produce aggressive shots and force errors from me. There's nothing more frustrating for me than hitting a high kicking moderately paced topspin shot, or a deep low slice(depending on the player) and have an opponent just rip a winner off of it like it didn't bother them at all.

The thing I want to know most is, what can I do to stay in these points longer?

 

[LuckyR]

I guess I am not answering your question but IMO you need to also develop a kill shot that you coordinate your game around, rather than try to wear down folks with better strokes than you have. That is a losing proposition (as you correctly stated).

 

[HondaOdyssey]

That's what my coach told me also, but I never listened to him because of the success I was having from before.

Should I try to learn how to hit a flat shot or try adding on more pace to my normal shots?

 

[LuckyR]

If you are a modern power baseliner, the easiest would be to develop a hard hit down the line topspin shot and a severe crosscourt angle shot that lands quite short. You know, think: Nadal.

 

[papa]

You might be surprised to discover how many hits there are per point - like around two. If you just get it back one more time you'll take quite a few points and it might make the difference - easier said than done but give it a try.

 

[Slice Approach]

There is a significant difference in the power/skill level between an average 4.0 and an average 4.5 player. Most 4.5's have played college tennis and are used to dealing with balls that have pace and topspin on a regular basis. That's what happens when you move up a level...the shots that used to give your opponents trouble are just normal shots at the next level.

In general, the overall games of players at the next level are going to be better...harder serves with more spin and better placement. Groundstrokes that are heavier and deeper. It is difficult to answer how to stay in rallies longer except to say that I would place a premium on DEPTH. But you have to put something on the ball and not just float it back or they will run you to death. Practice as much as possible with these players and get used to the faster rally speed. Good luck.

 

[Tennismastery]

Look at the overall depth of your topspin groundstroke. Most top players 4.5 and above, will eat up topspin from the mid court. Look for ways to hit deeper...adding more pace would be one way. Flatening out your strokes would be another. Stay within a game you are most comfortable with but see if you can increase the elements within that game...namely setting up your angles (that you seem to like a lot!) with better depth.

I would also make sure you are mastering some effective drop shot too. Not that you will use it a lot, but it will keep your opponents that you are working on keeping deeper shots on, honest.

Finally, work on developing a serve that is more of a weapon. This, I would say, is a major part of your game not being able to advance past your current level.

 

[GrahamIsSuper]

Nowadays, with people standing very far back behind the baseline, even deep balls with heavy topspin aren't really much of a threat, unless you really put some oomph on the ball. People with westerns/semi westerns are used to hitting balls above waist high; that's the comfort area of that sort of grip. Now, no one likes to hit high backhands...first thing is, hit them high backhands.

Like you said, you should be trying to give people different looks with the slice or whatever else you use. The last thing you want is to keep setting them up with service line-deep high topspin balls. Even if it's hard, it's candy for an attacking player. People with western forehands HATE short skidding balls. Getting low enough to raise it up with that grip = no fun.

 

[TENNIS_99]

I think you should first look at how good you have in control the first point. that means the serves and the return serves. Do you give your 4.5 opponents enough troubles returning your serve and put the first point in control? Can you neutralize kickers outwide? If the answer is yes, then you need to develope big weapons and learn how to use them. But from what I've seeing some players just jumping in and try to do too much and destroy the consistency they have developed for a long time. good luck!

 

[chess9]

I agree with papa. When I watch most of the guys play, it's slam, bam, thank you. The rallies are 3-4 strokes, max.

One of the things I do that has helped my steadiness is to play with better women players. Women aren't over-invested in crushing every ball. They must play smart tennis, so the better players are steady, deep, and creative. They are also a lot easier on the eyes.

-Robert

 

[Jack Romeo]

hello hondaodyssey, i think i'm in a very similar situation as yourself. like you, i can also get killed by power players when they are on and when i'm playing too safe. there is one thing that is very much key if you want to be able to stay in points against a more powerful player - you have to be willing to scramble, hustle and grind it out. play a lot of defense. you also have to anticipate very well. that being said, the question must be asked: how is your footspeed and court coverage?

 

[HondaOdyssey]

The problem with staying in points longer for me is that it doesn't help me if my opponents can hit their kill shots with some consistency. I've always been taught at the lower levels to "Hit crosscourt, if they want to take the risk of hitting down the line, let them do it. You will win in the long run." This totally worked for 3.5 and 4.0, but at 4.5 the power baseliners are just too consistent with their kill shots, and I simply can't afford to let them hit their aggressive shots at all. Even if that down the line shot doesn't win the point outright, they'll just move in and kill with a volley.

My court coverage is one of my strongest assets. One of the reasons I like to play consistency at all was because deep heavy topspin shots+good footspeed could win me many games. My stamina is also a huge asset for me. I regularly run up hills to increase my stamina, and I've never gotten tired from a tournament before, even when I had to play 2 or 3 matches a day.

I hope some of you who made the transition from 4.0 to 4.5 know what I'm talking about.

 

[Trinity TC]

Previous posters have made the same point but you have to do whatever it takes to put your opponent on his heels or at least in a position where he can't take the initiative and drive you off the court. The difference between 4.0 and 4.5 is the ability to hit a slightly heavier shots with purpose. I found that most 4.0s hit a ball that may be the same speed or faster as a 4.5 but was super easy to return and get grooved on because it didn't have that extra weight of shot. 4.0s also tended to leave the ball in the opponents' comfort zone too often.

A 4.0 has to raise the quality of his or her base shots. You can still use a lot of the same strategies and your crosscourt forehand won't get ripped down the line for a winner everytime if you have a little more weight of shot. Instead of taking 5% off your shot so that you are consistent...add 5% (including depth) and put your opponent on his heels a bit more. Don't forget that your opponent is giving you more power to work with so it's easier to throw it back at them if you don't get overly defensive. I assume that you are pretty steady so a little bit more oomph on your shot won't hurt your consistency.

It's not as big of a leap as it feels like right now. You'll adjust and at some point the consistency you developed at the 4.0 level will pay off against the 4.5s. Oh yeah, one last thing...develop a world class defensive lob. You will need it at 4.5 and higher. Go nutz and keep us updated.

 

[aaron_h27]

I know this is old, but I have the same problem as the OP

 

[larry10s]

i started a new thread on this concept please reply there
One thing that must also be taken into consideration is that while it is one thing to hit more effective shots more consistently,

it is also another issue to be able to “defend more effective shots hit more consistently by our opponents.”

 

[Falloutjr]

4.0 to 4.5 is where you really have to learn first-strike tennis. Big serve, big winning forehand combo really starts to shine here. It's much easier to hit 1 winner than 10 unattackable balls against a real 4.5. Your best shot to win here is to do the following:

1. Attack second serves. This is a must, it's the easiest shot you'll get from them all game. Take their second serve, and hammer it. When you attack a second serve, you should aim for one of these three targets.

- The middle of the deuce service box
- The middle of the ad service box
- The feet of the opponent

This is big shot, big target tennis. It's useful because it allows you to hit hard with some safety. Hitting at the feet of the opponent is especially effective in drawing floaters, whereas to the service boxes will usually get you a semi-defensive ball near the baseline. If you do get a short ball, run up and hit it at about 75% speed. You can get away with hitting a ball 50 mph here because you've taken away most of the court. It's essentially a 100mph ball wherever you wanna hit it.

- Serve big. A big serve here is huge. Even against 4.5s, a 100-110 mph serve will draw a short ball more times than not. If their ball lands near the service line, you have no business losing the point. Hit that ball off to the corner and consider it done.

- Hit big shots. Hitting big shots doesn't necessarily mean going for winners every single point. You wanna hit hard balls with enough margin of error that you won't hit errors on a regular basis. As a general rule of thumb, you want these shots to land halfway between the service line and the baseline, and halfway between the T and doubles alley to either side. Hitting balls right down the middle is asking for trouble. do this when going crosscourt and down the line, as down the line shots also have a decent amount of risk.

Playing offensively doesn't have to mean you go out there and just start knocking the snot out of the ball. Offense is generally a step-by-step progress. Generating offense is a progression which your opponent goes from hitting neutrally to defensively, in which case, you start moving up towards the net, taking court and time from your opponent, usually 3/4ths court or the service line, then going for the right winning shot. High percentage aggression is always stronger than high percentage neutrality.

Tl;dr: You don't want to be in long points at this point, really. They won't hit many errors and the second you screw up, you lost the point. Kill or be killed.

 

[GetBetterer]

It seems they figured you out. You've become predictable.

They know your cross-court shot is your "bread and butter" so they always stay at the cross court region in order to prepare for this.

You need to move them around, using down-the-line shots and cross-court combined.

An occassional drop shot works as well.

A standard rule of thumb I used in my high school days was what I called "3-2-1." 3 Cross courts, 2 Down the Line, 1 Cross court again before I expect a weak shot from them.

That isn't exactly the case though, it means 3 shots to them, 2 shots away from them, 1 away from them on the opposite side of the court.

The first 2 parts of the shot put their mind at ease before you scare them again.

 

[5263]

I'm having trouble progressing from a 4.0 player to a 4.5 player.

Power baseliners at the 4.5 level that I play against seem to be completely undaunted against every single shot I have in my arsenal.

The thing I want to know most is, what can I do to stay in these points longer?

2 issues to suggest and I don't think staying in the points longer should be your focus here, but this may help you to do that anyway.

First,
when you hit a good TS shot away from your opponent, it should put them on the run, despite the depth of your shot. It should have enough power and spin to do this. So if you hit a well struck heavy topspin that is angled roughly around the side T away from your opponent, this will get any player on the move. If it sits up and is easy to chase down under control and hit for a winner, it's just not much of a strong shot and you must learn to hit this shot more forcefully. Worth noting is that this shot when hit more down the center where it is easy to cut off by your opponent- these are the ones that will come back rudely against you.

Second,
you must have a couple of good attack options when your foes give you an attackable mid court ball. I'm sure your consistent play is earning these good looks that afford you some good attacks, but currently you must be going too conservative with these shots. You will never beat real good players if you have no way to hurt them when they leave you mid court balls.

The two things that will define your success as a player will be your ability to rally well from the baseline and behind, as well as the ability to hurt your opponent when they leave you a short ball. To get better at this, pick your better side (usually a Fh) and train to have ways to attack mid court middle balls from just that one wing. It is easier than learning to try and master attacks off sides at once and allows you to attack a large portion of the middle court and the side you chose to improve your attack on.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

4.0 to 4.5 is where you really have to learn first-strike tennis. Big serve, big winning forehand combo really starts to shine here. It's much easier to hit 1 winner than 10 unattackable balls against a real 4.5. Your best shot to win here is to do the following:

1. Attack second serves. This is a must, it's the easiest shot you'll get from them all game. Take their second serve, and hammer it. When you attack a second serve, you should aim for one of these three targets.

- The middle of the deuce service box
- The middle of the ad service box
- The feet of the opponent

This is big shot, big target tennis. It's useful because it allows you to hit hard with some safety. Hitting at the feet of the opponent is especially effective in drawing floaters, whereas to the service boxes will usually get you a semi-defensive ball near the baseline. If you do get a short ball, run up and hit it at about 75% speed. You can get away with hitting a ball 50 mph here because you've taken away most of the court. It's essentially a 100mph ball wherever you wanna hit it.

- Serve big. A big serve here is huge. Even against 4.5s, a 100-110 mph serve will draw a short ball more times than not. If their ball lands near the service line, you have no business losing the point. Hit that ball off to the corner and consider it done.

- Hit big shots. Hitting big shots doesn't necessarily mean going for winners every single point. You wanna hit hard balls with enough margin of error that you won't hit errors on a regular basis. As a general rule of thumb, you want these shots to land halfway between the service line and the baseline, and halfway between the T and doubles alley to either side. Hitting balls right down the middle is asking for trouble. do this when going crosscourt and down the line, as down the line shots also have a decent amount of risk.

Playing offensively doesn't have to mean you go out there and just start knocking the snot out of the ball. Offense is generally a step-by-step progress. Generating offense is a progression which your opponent goes from hitting neutrally to defensively, in which case, you start moving up towards the net, taking court and time from your opponent, usually 3/4ths court or the service line, then going for the right winning shot. High percentage aggression is always stronger than high percentage neutrality.

Tl;dr: You don't want to be in long points at this point, really. They won't hit many errors and the second you screw up, you lost the point. Kill or be killed.

Way to teach him how to play losing tennis.

Going big is never the way to win, it just encourages countless errors that shouldn't even happen. The best way to go about it is to reconsider what you're doing with your shots and which shots to use. Of course, you want to improve what you can do with your shots, but that's more of a long term goal.

First thing, nobody should be able to hit a winner on you unless you're slow, you gave them a short ball, or they pulled you off the court and your response wasn't good enough to keep them from burning you into the open court. If it's because you're too slow, then you either need to fix that, or you shouldn't be playing counter puncher tennis... It'll get you killed. Slow players need to compensate by hitting bigger shots and running their opponents side to side, with their biggest weapon being the return of serve. Of course, you want to play within your abilities, but if you're playing the wrong style of tennis, you need to spend quite a bit of time to change it anyways, expanding your abilities to allow you to consistently hit the shots you need to be hitting.

Also, aiming to return the serve at the middle of the service boxes is a recipe to get wrecked. The best place to aim is always near the baseline (in other words, DEEP). If you can consistently get the ball deep, it doesn't matter where the ball lands really... Most servers land a few feet into the court, meaning they have to back up very quickly to get in position to return a deep return well. So even if you don't have any directional control, if you hit it at or near them, they have to back up quickly and move to the side to give themselves space to hit the ball. If you hit it deep and off to the side, you either got a short ball, a forced error, or a winner. They AREN'T getting to it unless your opponent is Rafael Nadal on clay.

In baseline exchanges, you must ALWAYS aim deep and a little off to the side. You don't need to put them on the full run in a crosscourt rally, but you want them to be moving to hit the ball. If you CAN get them on the full run without pushing yourself, then go for it and open up the court. Depth and placement take priority over pace. If you can add heavy spin to that, then great, do it. On a slice however, if you can keep it low, it's okay if you hit it short as long as it isn't in the middle of the court.

If you can hold your own during baseline exchanges, you'll likely see some short balls come your way. No need to hit these for outright winners, just go for placement. Either go deep up the line into the corner with spin to control your shot or a sharp angle crosscourt if you can. If you can't get that sharp angled crosscourt, go for the corner. The key thing is to keep it deep unless you go for the angle. Set things up to give yourself an easy volley to put away. No need to hit these at 100% of your abilities. 70% or 80% is more than enough if you place it well. Don't rush yourself. Make sure you get there early enough to line up the shot and balance yourself before you hit it, otherwise you'll miss.

Also, your footwork and movement is critically important to staying in rallies. When you split step, you want to land at the same time your opponent makes contact with the ball. If you land late, then you take time away from yourself, especially against the bigger hitters. Also, if they hit down the line on you, don't go straight to the side. Go BACK and to the side, in a backwards diagonal away from the net. It's the opposite of retrieving a short angle ball where you have to move forward and to the side (forward diagonal towards the net) to cut off the angle and keep yourself from going too far off the court. If they hit down the line, it takes the ball less time to get there and you're on the other side of the court. Going in a backwards diagonal gives you more time to run the ball down and get it back. Also, from this position, if you hit short, you're ready for any big response they hit. Because you're further from them, you still have more time to react to their shot and run it down. But you NEED to pay attention and look for the drop shot.

As for the serve, it's critically important to improve your placement as much as possible. Also, it doesn't hurt to add some pace to it, but spin is just as good, if not better, and will help your serves become more consistent. Also, make good use of the body serve. Anytime I'm facing a player that's better than me, or has a great return, the body serve is so important in helping me to start points on my terms or to get free points.

 

[new_tennis_player]

Hmmm, OP is no longer active on the board.

Anyway, anyone have clips of 4 and 4.5 players as reference?

I write that knowing it's inevitable that any video will generate several dozen: "s/he's not a 4/4.5, they're more like 2/2.5 or low 3/3.5....

edit: here's a couple of 4.5 players. Amazingly, they don't look anything alike: one seems slow, the other very athletic. It's hard to believe they're at the same level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qJj198eyOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upEvI790asc&feature=channel

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Hmmm, OP is no longer active on the board.

Anyway, anyone have clips of 4 and 4.5 players as reference?

I write that knowing it's inevitable that any video will generate several dozen: "s/he's not a 4/4.5, they're more like 2/2.5 or low 3/3.5....

edit: here's a couple of 4.5 players. Amazingly, they don't look anything alike: one seems slow, the other very athletic. It's hard to believe they're at the same level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qJj198eyOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upEvI790asc&feature=channel

If you could find an "ideal" 4.5 player, they'd probably be ranked a 5.0 or higher. USTA makes us play up, and since there is no 1.0 or 1.5 league, it's like everyone is forced to play at a higher league, and the ratings are inflated. In the second video, their abilities don't match the USTA NTRP guidelines. However, I believe that the one who posted the video knows their ratings as they are likely his friends, and they likely all play USTA matches (hi10spro does play USTA matches and is rated a 5.0 with a winning record in the 4.5 level). So their win/loss record on the 4.5 level is likely enough to constitute that they are legitimate 4.5 players. However, that is based on their record against other players in the 4.5 league, who might not all necessarily be legitimate 4.5 players (based on the guidelines). Since USTA keeps bumping up people with winning records, you get a bunch of people in higher leagues who can't win, but can't go back to playing lower leagues because they are winning too much. As a result, although these players know how to win, their skills aren't necessarily that of an "ideal" 4.5 player. They start winning, but their skills still aren't really at that level. They become a "solid 4.5" when they only have the skills of maybe an "ideal" 3.5 player.

As you can see from the second video, both players fail to consistently hit deep during rallies, and are incapable of putting away easy overheads and volleys. Also, they cannot put away short balls or consistently hit effective approach shots (which are made to look even less effective when they can't put away the easy volleys). Under the USTA NTRP guidelines, and "ideal" 4.5 player should be able to do all of these things. However, both players can place their serves reasonably well (although the returns seem to be punishing those serves).

While I fully believe that these players are 4.5 players when based on their win/loss record at the 4.5 tournament/league level, I believe that these ratings are inflated due to USTA's inability to correctly place people properly based on their abilities. But in the end, it doesn't matter how you win, just the fact that you won. I mean, it's not like it's possible to keep an "ideal" 4.5 player stuck at the 4.5 level forever just for the sake of comparison and using him/her as a measuring stick by which to determine whether other players are at the 4.5 level or not. That is unfair to that player. That player might improve later on or get worse from injury, lack of practice, or age.

In the end, you can't say if you want to be a 4.5, you have to be like this guy in this video here. You have to go out and play a variety of people, preferable those that are better than you. Not only that, you have to learn what you personally need to do in order to beat those that are better than you. Sometimes it means developing better strokes, sometimes it means playing a smarter game with crappy strokes. Bottom line, do what it takes (within the lines of the rules, fair play, and sportsmanlike conduct) in order to win. That doesn't mean don't try to peg the other guy and avoid body serves or taking advantage of a physical disability (like height) or a weakness in their game. In fact, it means to do JUST THAT (so long as you don't hurt the other guy or actually peg him with the ball). Do what it takes to win, but keep it clean and fair. Both players can't win, so make sure you give it a better effort than your opponent and good things will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n_YGjMI_z8

While by what I said earlier, I should probably rate the one in the near court as a 4.0, but I feel that he is actually very close to the "ideal" 4.5 player. His USTA record on the other hand, says he is a 5.0 player. The guy on the far court is probably an "ideal" 5.0 player. The fact is, if you want to play 4.5 tennis, play like these guys. The only thing I can say bad about them is shot selection. Sometimes they go for the wrong shot and miss. Their execution otherwise is good when they pick the right shot. Solid tennis. If you can play like these guys, you'll probably actually be bumped up to a 5.0 for winning so much and get wrecked because you really belong in the 4.5 league.

 

[Falloutjr]

If you could find an "ideal" 4.5 player, they'd probably be ranked a 5.0 or higher. USTA makes us play up, and since there is no 1.0 or 1.5 league, it's like everyone is forced to play at a higher league, and the ratings are inflated. In the second video, their abilities don't match the USTA NTRP guidelines. However, I believe that the one who posted the video knows their ratings as they are likely his friends, and they likely all play USTA matches (hi10spro does play USTA matches and is rated a 5.0 with a winning record in the 4.5 level). So their win/loss record on the 4.5 level is likely enough to constitute that they are legitimate 4.5 players. However, that is based on their record against other players in the 4.5 league, who might not all necessarily be legitimate 4.5 players (based on the guidelines). Since USTA keeps bumping up people with winning records, you get a bunch of people in higher leagues who can't win, but can't go back to playing lower leagues because they are winning too much. As a result, although these players know how to win, their skills aren't necessarily that of an "ideal" 4.5 player. They start winning, but their skills still aren't really at that level. They become a "solid 4.5" when they only have the skills of maybe an "ideal" 3.5 player.

As you can see from the second video, both players fail to consistently hit deep during rallies, and are incapable of putting away easy overheads and volleys. Also, they cannot put away short balls or consistently hit effective approach shots (which are made to look even less effective when they can't put away the easy volleys). Under the USTA NTRP guidelines, and "ideal" 4.5 player should be able to do all of these things. However, both players can place their serves reasonably well (although the returns seem to be punishing those serves).

While I fully believe that these players are 4.5 players when based on their win/loss record at the 4.5 tournament/league level, I believe that these ratings are inflated due to USTA's inability to correctly place people properly based on their abilities. But in the end, it doesn't matter how you win, just the fact that you won. I mean, it's not like it's possible to keep an "ideal" 4.5 player stuck at the 4.5 level forever just for the sake of comparison and using him/her as a measuring stick by which to determine whether other players are at the 4.5 level or not. That is unfair to that player. That player might improve later on or get worse from injury, lack of practice, or age.

In the end, you can't say if you want to be a 4.5, you have to be like this guy in this video here. You have to go out and play a variety of people, preferable those that are better than you. Not only that, you have to learn what you personally need to do in order to beat those that are better than you. Sometimes it means developing better strokes, sometimes it means playing a smarter game with crappy strokes. Bottom line, do what it takes (within the lines of the rules, fair play, and sportsmanlike conduct) in order to win. That doesn't mean don't try to peg the other guy and avoid body serves or taking advantage of a physical disability (like height) or a weakness in their game. In fact, it means to do JUST THAT (so long as you don't hurt the other guy or actually peg him with the ball). Do what it takes to win, but keep it clean and fair. Both players can't win, so make sure you give it a better effort than your opponent and good things will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n_YGjMI_z8

While by what I said earlier, I should probably rate the one in the near court as a 4.0, but I feel that he is actually very close to the "ideal" 4.5 player. His USTA record on the other hand, says he is a 5.0 player. The guy on the far court is probably an "ideal" 5.0 player. The fact is, if you want to play 4.5 tennis, play like these guys. The only thing I can say bad about them is shot selection. Sometimes they go for the wrong shot and miss. Their execution otherwise is good when they pick the right shot. Solid tennis. If you can play like these guys, you'll probably actually be bumped up to a 5.0 for winning so much and get wrecked because you really belong in the 4.5 league.

I would definitely agree the guy on the far court looks like a legit/high 4.5, but the guy on the near court is on the lower end of 4.5. His backhand seems pretty shaky from time to time.

 

[new_tennis_player]

Hey xF, thanks for such an interesting post!

I guess it's the same way in basketball: Dominique Wilkins had some ugly fundamentals but crazy athleticism and averaged 28 pts. a game.

Larry Bird had amazing fundamentals but average athleticism and averaged....28 pts. a game.

Just different paths to the same goal.

 

[new_tennis_player]

I would definitely agree the guy on the far court looks like a legit/high 4.5, but the guy on the near court is on the lower end of 4.5. His backhand seems pretty shaky from time to time.

One other thing that surprises me too: near court doesn't look that athletic, yet he's almost an advanced intermediate.

I see this quite a bit in rec tennis: players who hit strokes in a skilled way, despite some clear athletic limitations: noticeably overweight, very slow, or whatever.

It's not a knock on near court player at all, it just surprises me.

 

[Falloutjr]

One other thing that surprises me too: near court doesn't look that athletic, yet he's almost an advanced intermediate.

I see this quite a bit in rec tennis: players who hit strokes in a skilled way, despite some clear athletic limitations: noticeably overweight, very slow, or whatever.

It's not a knock on near court player at all, it just surprises me.

Yeah. I've seen some people that don't look athletic at all move about the court like a ninja. I've learned not to judge books by their cover in this game the hard way. But my theory is everything that can be improved is something you win in spite of. He's not a pro, he probably isn't as worried about his athleticism as younger players, but he still wins in spite of it, just like he wins in spite of his inconsistent backhand. I win in spite of my net game. I think the good thing about tennis is you find your own level and the universe has a way of assessing what you win because of and what you win in spite of and matching people beautifully. So he may not be super athletic, but he manages to find good competitive matches with pretty skilled players who themselves have some weak points, and when all is said and done, results in a pretty even match, which is kinda nice, I guess

 

[new_tennis_player]

See, here's a video of what I thought 4/5 intermediates play like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etcb9-0j4SU

Obviously, there's a lot of editing, but they're moving about the court fairly well and hitting for location with a lot of accuracy.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

I would definitely agree the guy on the far court looks like a legit/high 4.5, but the guy on the near court is on the lower end of 4.5. His backhand seems pretty shaky from time to time.

Are we looking at the same video? His backhand is very solid. His whole game is solid except maybe at net when he gets a bit lazy on those slow, low balls. Regardless, USTA computer rates him a 5.0. Anyone who calls him less than a 4.5 is in denial about their own game... He's openly ready to challenge everyone that calls him out on his rating and is willing to bet serious money on it too. I just wish one of the dumb suckers would do it and get blown off the court and shut up.

One other thing that surprises me too: near court doesn't look that athletic, yet he's almost an advanced intermediate.

I see this quite a bit in rec tennis: players who hit strokes in a skilled way, despite some clear athletic limitations: noticeably overweight, very slow, or whatever.

It's not a knock on near court player at all, it just surprises me.

4.5 tennis is advanced intermediate tennis in my book... 5.0 tennis is lower advanced tennis in my book. So he plays lower advanced tennis.

He normally plays doubles due to his lack of conditioning/mobility. He himself admits his groundstrokes aren't his forte, though he still hits them very well. He's all about the serve, return, and volleys, as you can clearly see.

See, here's a video of what I thought 4/5 intermediates play like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etcb9-0j4SU

Obviously, there's a lot of editing, but they're moving about the court fairly well and hitting for location with a lot of accuracy.

The camera angle is different. I'm sure if we edited hi10spro's videos to include only highlights and put them in the same camera angle then he'd look just as good as Chris. Heck, those videos are edited in such a way it's hard to tell that they aren't all on the same level... Chris and Granville are 0.5-1.0 levels above the rest, and are made to look like the rest can blow them off the court easily. Clearly, there's some unfair editing done here...