Steffi Graf was great.......but very fortunate too!!

[svijk]

Steffi Graf is a legend with 22 Grand Slam singles titles and is probably most instrumental in bringing in the power and aggression we see in the women’s game today.

However, it is interesting to speculate what might have been if Monica Seles was not attacked in April 1993. At that point, she was number1 in the world, having already won 8 Grand Slams to Graf’s 11. Their head to head in Grand Slam finals was 3-1 Seles.

Seles was in a dominant position at that time and post stabbing, Graf went on to win 11 more Slams. Her closest rival after Seles was Aranxta Sanchez who although a tough player was not the same level.

Thus some of Graf’s greatness can be attributed to the fact that she did not face any huge rivals from 93-99 so I consider her a bit fortunate

 

[SoCal10s]

Steffi Graf is a legend with 22 Grand Slam singles titles and is probably most instrumental in bringing in the power and aggression we see in the women’s game today.

However, it is interesting to speculate what might have been if Monica Seles was not attacked in April 1993. At that point, she was number1 in the world, having already won 8 Grand Slams to Graf’s 11. Their head to head in Grand Slam finals was 3-1 Seles.

Seles was in a dominant position at that time and post stabbing, Graf went on to win 11 more Slams. Her closest rival after Seles was Aranxta Sanchez who although a tough player was not the same level.

Thus some of Graf’s greatness can be attributed to the fact that she did not face any huge rivals from 93-99 so I consider her a bit fortunate

I would have to agree with you here... Seles was starting to just rip her apart and everyone else at that time.. Seles was getting stronger and faster and more comfortable with her own game....Seles angle shots were killers for the slower girls and Graf's backhand couldn't keep up with Seles two hand strong on both wings... too bad for what might have been....

 

[Nadal_Freak]

Graf would still own Seles on grass but everywhere else, Seles was favorited.

 

[Azzurri]

this has been discussed sooo many times. the search key will provide plenty of debates.

 

[thalivest]

This belongs in the Former Pro Player section. Monica was great but she still had every opportunity to be a top 3 all time great herself even with the stabbing. She returned to tennis at only 21 and potentially had many very good years ahead of her. She simply couldnt be bothered to get back in half decent professional shape ever again for anytime in the following 7 years of her career, and thus she chose to become the eternal victim.

 

[thalivest]

Graf would still own Seles on grass but everywhere else, Seles was favorited.

They never played at the U.S Open before the stabbing. I might favor Graf there as well. Definitely Graf at Wimbledon. Seles at the Australian and French Opens I think. Then again given that she couldnt be bothered to ever get back in half decent shape after the stabbing who knows how long Seles would have even continued with a full professional approach to the game to rival Graf at all.

 

[rolandg]

This topic has been done to death. Not worth going over it again.

 

[CyBorg]

Very original thread.

 

[Azzurri]

This topic has been done to death. Not worth going over it again.

agreed.

10 charac.

 

[matchmaker]

Navratilova once said that Graf would have a few slams less if the stabbing incident never took place, bringing her on the same level as Martina and Chris. And maybe Seles would have reached that level too.

 

[bluetrain4]

As others have said, this has been discussed a million times.

I was a huge fan of Seles, but I'm not going to dismiss Graf's remarkable acheivements. She did win a Golden Slam before Seles stabbing.

I assume (and I think safely so) that Graf would have won less, Seles would have won more Slams if the stabbing wouldn't have happened. But, I have no idea how many more and how many less. Yes, Seles had Graf's number on non-grass surfaces right at the time of the stabbing, but it's not like Graf couldn't beat her on hard or clay. There's really no telling what would have happened.

Monica played well right whe she returned, and I agree with the poster who said that part of her post-stabbing lack of Slams is partly her own doing.

There are understandable reasons for her lack of fitness in later years. Around 1998 when she got huge (not just big like a few years earlier), she readily admits she was eating to deal with stress and depression (mainly due to her father's passing). It's an understandable, and not at all uncommon response, but still one she could have avoided. Later, her foot really was screwed up pretty bad and her training had to be curtailed, but at that point, 2000 or 2001 and onward, she wasn't going to be easily winning Slams anyway. The real "lost years" in my opinon are 1995 to 1999. And, she had her chances - making the USO final in 1995 and 1996 (she did win the 1996 AO), randomly losing to Sanchez-Vicario in the 1998 FO final (she was 20-3 lifetime against her), and also making a bunch of semis. But, she never got it completely back together.

It's such an unfortunate incident, but it happened. Seles still won 9 Slams and is safely a Top 10 of all time player. I like both players. They were both great and there's really nothing else to say.

 

[hewittboy]

One interesting thing is that in several years time Seles might not even be clearly in the top 10 all time anymore. She is currently tied for 8th all time in slams won with both Serena and Connoly. However I think most would give Connoly the nod over Seles, as both had their careers cut short at a similar age with a stroke of horrible luck, but Connoly was even more dominant then Seles since she dominated on GRASS too and won Wimbledon, and won the calender slam, and won any slam she played for 3 years. Serena seemingly is on pace to surpass Seles's career, and might have already depending exactly what you value in a players career. Venus though could also surpass Seles's career by the time she is done, particularly if she gets over her Serena phobia. Who knows if Henin makes a comeback, she too is capable.

So it is quite possible in several years Seles place in the top 10 all time will be disputed. I guess depending how much consideration you give to Seles's horrible luck, her 2+ period of high level dominance, or the lack of competition back in the pre historic times, you might make an argument for Seles being over Lenglen and/or King to keep her in the top 10 once 2 or more of Serena, Venus, Henin surpasses her.

 

[grafrules]

Graf's achievements even before the incident:

-a record 13 straight slam finals from the 1987 French Open to the 1988

-match record of 75-2 in 1987, 72-3 in 1988, 86-2 in 1989, only Navratilova can even match this 3 year stretch of extreme dominance

-the only ever Golden Slam in 1988 and one of only 3 women to ever achieve the calender Grand Slam

-the second longest match win streak of the open era, 66 straight matches won only second to Navratilova's 74.

-missed out on being the only women to achieve back to back Grand Slams by just one match, winning 7 of 8 slams in 1988 and 1989, and losing the final of the 1989 French Open to ASV

-6 straight years winning atleast one slam title

-11 slam titles, 7th most all time already, and practically assured to soon surpass both King and Lenglen both just in front of her with 12

-each of the 4 slams atleast twice, one of only 4 women along with Navratilova, Evert, Court, to achieve this

-a record 186 consecutive weeks holding the #1 ranking

-four consecutive year end #1s from 1987-1990

-four Wimbledon titles in the last five years between 1988-1992, a perfect 4-0 in Wimbledon finals

-72 tournament titles, ranking her 4th most all time at that point

-quarterfinals or better at 26 consecutive slams played, dating from the 1985 U.S Open to the 1993 Australian Open

-semifinals or better at 24 of last 26 slams played, again from the time of the 1985 U. S Open to the 1993 Australian Open, only twice losing in the quarters of that span

Graf was easily one of the greatest players in history even before the stabbing, and she certainly still would have added to her career further over the next 4 years even had the stabbing never occured. How many more slams exactly she would have still won, nobody will ever know for sure.

 

[MEAC_ALLAMERICAN]

this has been discussed sooo many times. the search key will provide plenty of debates.

Okay!!!

I mean, I love Seles and Graf in her own right has attained what she has done. At the same time, I have to think that eveything is done for a reason. Time to move on from this "what if" situation. Graf is where she is at, and it will take a mighty effort to even get to her achivements.

 

[rolandg]

One interesting thing is that in several years time Seles might not even be clearly in the top 10 all time anymore. She is currently tied for 8th all time in slams won with both Serena and Connoly. However I think most would give Connoly the nod over Seles, as both had their careers cut short at a similar age with a stroke of horrible luck, but Connoly was even more dominant then Seles since she dominated on GRASS too and won Wimbledon, and won the calender slam, and won any slam she played for 3 years. Serena seemingly is on pace to surpass Seles's career, and might have already depending exactly what you value in a players career. Venus though could also surpass Seles's career by the time she is done, particularly if she gets over her Serena phobia. Who knows if Henin makes a comeback, she too is capable.

So it is quite possible in several years Seles place in the top 10 all time will be disputed. I guess depending how much consideration you give to Seles's horrible luck, her 2+ period of high level dominance, or the lack of competition back in the pre historic times, you might make an argument for Seles being over Lenglen and/or King to keep her in the top 10 once 2 or more of Serena, Venus, Henin surpasses her.

Nah, she'll always be up there, as will Connoly. It's also possible that King's singles record will be surpassed by a number of players, but she'll always be up there, because of what she could have achieved if she had been able to concetrate on her game.

 

[hewittboy]

Nah, she'll always be up there, as will Connoly. It's also possible that King's singles record will be surpassed by a number of players, but she'll always be up there, because of what she could have achieved if she had been able to concetrate on her game.

So you really think Seles, Connoly, and even King will be considered up there even if there are multiple more players to win 15+ slams, or 12+ slams but with a non calender or calender slam? I have serious doubts about that.

 

[rolandg]

So you really think Seles, Connoly, and even King will be considered up there even if there are multiple more players to win 15+ slams, or 12+ slams but with a non calender or calender slam? I have serious doubts about that.

Yes. It is entirely plausible to call Connoly the greatest player of all time, as many do, even though her accomplishments have been surpassed.

 

[tacoben]

Let's see if Steffi does any better in Dancing with The Stars!

 

[MEAC_ALLAMERICAN]

Let's see if Steffi does any better in Dancing with The Stars!

Her footwork was to me was the best I have seen in women's tennis. That should translate into something to see on that show. But I don't think she will do it, I just read an interview with her and she is clearly in the phase of her life where her children and family are #1, and she LOVES it.

 

[Pete.Sampras.]

Not again, not again... :roll:

 

[CEvertFan]

Would Graf have won less Slam titles had Seles not been stabbed? Most definitely. Is Graf anything less than what she is? No. Steffi will always be considered one of the greatest players ever in the women's game.

Graf belongs in the top echelon along with Navratilova, Evert and Court. What those 4 players have achieved is way beyond what all the others have done.

Bottom line is that we could all sit here and speculate all day on what would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed but the unfortunate fact is that it did happen and Graf went on to win her 22 Grand Slam titles and that, as they say, is that. Being able to see the rivalry between Seles and Graf really blossom is the thing I would have most liked to have seen, but most unfortunately for all us tennis fans it wasn't meant to be.

 

[hewittboy]

Would Graf have won less Slam titles had Seles not been stabbed? Most definitely. Is Graf anything less than what she is? No. Steffi will always be considered one of the greatest players ever in the women's game.

Graf belongs in the top echelon along with Navratilova, Evert and Court. What those 4 players have achieved is way beyond what all the others have done.

Bottom line is that we could all sit here and speculate all day on what would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed but the unfortunate fact is that it did happen and Graf went on to win her 22 Grand Slam titles and that, as they say, is that. Being able to see the rivalry between Seles and Graf really blossom is the thing I would have most liked to have seen, but most unfortunately for all us tennis fans it wasn't meant to be.

Very well said. The stabbing also has already diminished Graf in a way, as a big claim against her being the best ever is she didnt have a truly great rival throughout her career. Had Seles been there from 1993-1996, in continuation of 1990-early 1993 that atleast is one thing that could not be said, although her winnings would be less probably, atleast nobody could deny a 7 year rivalry between two all time greats like that. Also if Graf were able to turn the tables and do better then she had in 1991 and 1992 (I am not saying whether or not she would have but if she did) it would have looked all the better on her. So it isnt all gravy for Graf either in a large way.

 

[World Beater]

imagine if there were no nadal...

we would have steffi-fed.

 

[obsessedtennisfandisorder]

Can we stop this turning into another "if" thread about seles.

i agree Graf's achievements have an asteriisk...but let's just leave it at that.

If nadal was stabbed by a fed fan now....then fed won french...
of course you'd expect questions after that too.

 

[Warriorroger]

Can we stop this turning into another "if" thread about seles.

i agree Graf's achievements have an asteriisk...but let's just leave it at that.

If nadal was stabbed by a fed fan now....then fed won french...
of course you'd expect questions after that too.

Agree with you for the most, but then all the players who played should have an asterisk not only Graf.

 

[boredone3456]

Agree with you for the most, but then all the players who played should have an asterisk not only Graf.

Exactly....every single player who won a slam, or most any tier one tournament then would have a giant asterisk is some peoples minds that says "only won because Seles didn't play or was not at her best since returning from the stabbing".

The problem is, some people seem to assume that had she not been stabbed, Seles would have continued winning 3 slams a year for the next like, 5 or 6 years. To me, this is completely delusional, to think no player would crack her for that long, factoring in 90-92, regardless of how good she was, someone somewhere would more than likely find a way to beat her somewhere, thats the way tennis is, you win for a while, than someone finds a way to challenge you, than beat you. It happened to every single player who is considered great, they don't stay on top and dominate forever. Yet the tone seems to be that Seles would have done that.

Personally, I think had Seles not been stabbed, the next few years, 93-most likely 97 would have been trade offs between her and Steffi in the majors, why, because frankly Steffi I think would have figured out how to adapt her game and challenge and beat Seles, with around '97 someone else coming to prominance to dethrone them, much like steffi and others did to Evert and Navratilova.

In the end...I agree that Steffi Benefited, but not to the degree that some people around here seem to think.

 

[thalivest]

Exactly....every single player who won a slam, or most any tier one tournament then would have a giant asterisk is some peoples minds that says "only won because Seles didn't play or was not at her best since returning from the stabbing".

The problem is, some people seem to assume that had she not been stabbed, Seles would have continued winning 3 slams a year for the next like, 5 or 6 years. To me, this is completely delusional, to think no player would crack her for that long, factoring in 90-92, regardless of how good she was, someone somewhere would more than likely find a way to beat her somewhere, thats the way tennis is, you win for a while, than someone finds a way to challenge you, than beat you. It happened to every single player who is considered great, they don't stay on top and dominate forever. Yet the tone seems to be that Seles would have done that.

Personally, I think had Seles not been stabbed, the next few years, 93-most likely 97 would have been trade offs between her and Steffi in the majors, why, because frankly Steffi I think would have figured out how to adapt her game and challenge and beat Seles, with around '97 someone else coming to prominance to dethrone them, much like steffi and others did to Evert and Navratilova.

In the end...I agree that Steffi Benefited, but not to the degree that some people around here seem to think.

On one hand Monica was a still quite young player already winning 3 of 4 slams in two straight years so I understand the logic in a way.

On the other hand Monica had everything go right for her those two years as far as the unknown factors for every player. Perfect luck with health, no injuries or illness whatsoever, no off court issues to deal with. These things would not have lasted forever. I doubt the chronic shoulder injuries she was having in 1996 were stabbing related, they were simply what eventually happens to every player, injuries eventually happen. I even doubt the tendonitis in the knee she had when she came back was stabbing related, atlhough I do think she could have helped her recovery from it by being alot fitter. Things like her fathers very sad illness are challenges off the court that she would have to cope with regardless which she never faced pre-stabbing. Basically I cant see her keeping up her perfect run in non-grass slams for 5-6 more years when her perfect luck with health and turmoil-free life was not going to continue that whole time either. Not to mention the fact Graf never winning a non-Wimbledon again is simply not realistic, no matter how you personally feel about her.

 

[rolandg]

On one hand Monica was a still quite young player already winning 3 of 4 slams in two straight years so I understand the logic in a way.

On the other hand Monica had everything go right for her those two years as far as the unknown factors for every player. Perfect luck with health, no injuries or illness whatsoever, no off court issues to deal with. These things would not have lasted forever. I doubt the chronic shoulder injuries she was having in 1996 were stabbing related, they were simply what eventually happens to every player, injuries eventually happen. I even doubt the tendonitis in the knee she had when she came back was stabbing related, atlhough I do think she could have helped her recovery from it by being alot fitter. Things like her fathers very sad illness are challenges off the court that she would have to cope with regardless which she never faced pre-stabbing. Basically I cant see her keeping up her perfect run in non-grass slams for 5-6 more years when her perfect luck with health and turmoil-free life was not going to continue that whole time either. Not to mention the fact Graf never winning a non-Wimbledon again is simply not realistic, no matter how you personally feel about her.

She was a Yugoslav for Christ's sake. It would take you a very, very long time to find anyone in Yugoslavia at that time that had a turmoil free life.

 

[CEvertFan]

Exactly....every single player who won a slam, or most any tier one tournament then would have a giant asterisk is some peoples minds that says "only won because Seles didn't play or was not at her best since returning from the stabbing".

The problem is, some people seem to assume that had she not been stabbed, Seles would have continued winning 3 slams a year for the next like, 5 or 6 years. To me, this is completely delusional, to think no player would crack her for that long, factoring in 90-92, regardless of how good she was, someone somewhere would more than likely find a way to beat her somewhere, thats the way tennis is, you win for a while, than someone finds a way to challenge you, than beat you. It happened to every single player who is considered great, they don't stay on top and dominate forever. Yet the tone seems to be that Seles would have done that.

Personally, I think had Seles not been stabbed, the next few years, 93-most likely 97 would have been trade offs between her and Steffi in the majors, why, because frankly Steffi I think would have figured out how to adapt her game and challenge and beat Seles, with around '97 someone else coming to prominance to dethrone them, much like steffi and others did to Evert and Navratilova.

In the end...I agree that Steffi Benefited, but not to the degree that some people around here seem to think.

I for one never said that Seles would continue to win 3 Slams a year for the next 5-6 years, but if she won even 1 or 2 Slam titles a year that would have cut into Graf's 22 Slam titles and Steffi might have possibly ended up with less than the 18 Slam titles that Evert and Navratilova managed. I don't think Monica would have ever beaten Graf at Wimbledon because Steffi was too strong on grass but the other Slams, particularly the French and the AO, favored Seles' game more than Steffi's.

Also the main reason that most tennis experts pick Graf as the best of all time is that she won each of the majors at least 4 times and if Seles hadn't been taken out of the equation I doubt that Steffi could have claimed that particular honor, so IMO Steffi benefitted more than you think she did.

All this speculation is nice and all, but the bottom line is that history is already written and Graf does have 22 Slam titles and Seles wound up not ever dominating the women's game again. Like I said in my earlier post, the thing that I would have most liked to have seen is the Graf/Seles rivalry blossom into it's full potential (it could have possibly rivaled the great Evert/Navratilova rivalry), but sadly it wasn't meant to be.

 

[hewittboy]

I for one never said that Seles would continue to win 3 Slams a year for the next 5-6 years, but if she won even 1 or 2 Slam titles a year that would have cut into Graf's 22 Slam titles and Steffi might have possibly ended up with less than the 18 Slam titles that Evert and Navratilova managed. I don't think Monica would have ever beaten Graf at Wimbledon because Steffi was too strong on grass but the other Slams, particularly the French and the AO, favored Seles' game more than Steffi's.

Also the main reason that most tennis experts pick Graf as the best of all time is that she won each of the majors at least 4 times and if Seles hadn't been taken out of the equation I doubt that Steffi could have claimed that particular honor, so IMO Steffi benefitted more than you think she did.

All this speculation is nice and all, but the bottom line is that history is already written and Graf does have 22 Slam titles and Seles wound up not ever dominating the women's game again. Like I said in my earlier post, the thing that I would have most liked to have seen is the Graf/Seles rivalry blossom into it's full potential (it could have possibly rivaled the great Evert/Navratilova rivalry), but sadly it wasn't meant to be.

Not to overly analyze but if you really feel Seles was only going to be winning 1 or 2 slams a year I doubt that would have cut into Graf's 22 that much anyway in that case. In 1993 Seles had already won 1 slam title, so if she wins 1 or 2 that year it means she only wins 0 or 1 more and Graf only 0 or 1 less. In 1994 Graf shockingly won only 1 slam anyway, so if Seles wins only 1 or 2 those are almost certainly 1 or 2 of the other 3 won as the thought of 3 other women of this time each winning slams in a year with both Graf and Seles playing is ridiculous. In 1995 Graf won 3 slams, but if Seles wins only 1 or 2 that almost certainly includes the Pierce slam at the Grafless Australian Open, and leaves only 0-1 of the additional 3 slams Graf won. In 1996 she was the one to this time win the Grafless Australian Open (Graf missed both 95 and 96 with injuries) so again if you are going with 1-2 a year that would leave only 0-1 of the remaining 3 slams.

So according to your Seles winning 1-2 slams per year, if you really feel that is all she would have won, she is probably only taking away from slams that were won by Graf:

1993- 0 to 1
1994- 0
1995- 0 to 1
1996- 0 to 1

Which comes out to 0 to 3, rounded down to something like 1 or 2 less which is hardly anything.
If you really want to say she was going to meaningfully cut into Graf's pie then Seles would have to be winning more then "1 or 2 slams" per year. Seles would have to be winning 2 or 3 a year if you have any chance to bring Graf on par or even below Evert and Navratilova.

 

[hewittboy]

For the record I also think Graf could definitely have achieved the 4 for 4 record without the stabbing, in fact if I was forced to bet money I would bet a small sum on her ending up with exactly 4 at each of Australia, French, U.S, no more and no less. She had 3 Australian Opens, 2 French Opens, 2 U.S Opens, before the stabbing. Graf has a much better shot at the U.S Open vs Seles then either the Australian or French Opens anyway, so I dont find the idea of Graf splitting the 4 U.S Opens from 1993-1996 with Seles that hard to fathom. The idea of Seles continuing to dominate the U.S Open over a fast court player like Graf I find far more far fetched then her continuing to dominate the slower surfaces of Australia and the French. It would have been very interesting to see Graf and Seles play a U.S Open final in 91 or 92 had Graf not been upset before the finals. Since Graf was so close on clay her chances probably would be pretty good on a fast hard court.

As for the Australian Open Seles would beat Graf the vast majority of the time on that surface, probably the surfaces she is most favored over Graf even over clay. However Graf missed it nearly every year injured anyway, lost in 93 in 3 sets anyway, and in 94 Graf played on her best matches ever in the final losing only 2 games to Sanchez Vicario. So I strongly suspect Graf would have been able to win the 94 final in the sublime form she was in, even vs Seles, and as she would usually lose to Seles there anyway and yet missed it almost every year injured anyway, there really is no difference here. Still 4 Australian Opens.

That leaves only the French Open. It is hard to believe Graf not winning 1 out of the 4 French Opens from 93 to 96, unless you really think Seles was going to win 8 or 9 in a row or something. Also there was then Graf's upset win in 1999 when it seems highly unlikely Seles would have been the one to beat by that point anyway (for a number of reasons, but all signs are her career would have faded by that point, and the next gaurd would have already emerged by then). That seems very believable to me which would give her 4 there as well.

 

[rolandg]

For the record I also think Graf could definitely have achieved the 4 for 4 record without the stabbing, in fact if I was forced to bet money I would bet a small sum on her ending up with exactly 4 at each of Australia, French, U.S, no more and no less. She had 3 Australian Opens, 2 French Opens, 2 U.S Opens, before the stabbing. Graf has a much better shot at the U.S Open vs Seles then either the Australian or French Opens anyway, so I dont find the idea of Graf splitting the 4 U.S Opens from 1993-1996 with Seles that hard to fathom. The idea of Seles continuing to dominate the U.S Open over a fast court player like Graf I find far more far fetched then her continuing to dominate the slower surfaces of Australia and the French. It would have been very interesting to see Graf and Seles play a U.S Open final in 91 or 92 had Graf not been upset before the finals. Since Graf was so close on clay her chances probably would be pretty good on a fast hard court.

As for the Australian Open Seles would beat Graf the vast majority of the time on that surface, probably the surfaces she is most favored over Graf even over clay. However Graf missed it nearly every year injured anyway, lost in 93 in 3 sets anyway, and in 94 Graf played on her best matches ever in the final losing only 2 games to Sanchez Vicario. So I strongly suspect Graf would have been able to win the 94 final in the sublime form she was in, even vs Seles, and as she would usually lose to Seles there anyway and yet missed it almost every year injured anyway, there really is no difference here. Still 4 Australian Opens.

That leaves only the French Open. It is hard to believe Graf not winning 1 out of the 4 French Opens from 93 to 96, unless you really think Seles was going to win 8 or 9 in a row or something. Also there was then Graf's upset win in 1999 when it seems highly unlikely Seles would have been the one to beat by that point anyway (for a number of reasons, but all signs are her career would have faded by that point, and the next gaurd would have already emerged by then). That seems very believable to me which would give her 4 there as well.

That's funny. Most people look sublime when playing Sanchez.

 

[hewittboy]

That's funny. Most people look sublime when playing Sanchez.

Seles often did, not Graf. Sanchez was a hell opponent for Graf, a much worse matchup for Graf then she was for Seles, the same way Novotna and Hingis were worse matchups for Seles then Graf. Even in 1996 when Seles was in a diminished state, partially due to stabbing likely, partially due to shoulder injuries, and Graf was clearly the superior player by then, Seles still had a much easier time beating up Sanchez Vicario then did Graf. So yes for Graf to beat up on Sanchez Vicario that way was incredible for her, and showed she was in a rare level of exceptional form.

I also find your comment peculiar in a general sense. Sanchez Vicario was by far the best player in the world not named Steffi Graf or Monica Seles from mid 1992 to late 1996, always the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world, and in fact probably the best player in the world in 1994. Most people looked sublime playing her? Hell almost everyone not named Graf or Seles looked like a clown most times playing her. Do you really think Conchita Martinez, Jana Novotna, Mary Pierce, Anke Hubert, Iva Majoli, Kimiko Date, or Mary Joe Fernandez, who pretty much made up the rest of the top 10 then looked "sublime" playing her? Hard to say that when they were losing almost everytime, sometimes badly. You could have atleast narrowed your comment to Seles and Graf (and you would still be wrong on Graf for the msot part) rather then saying "most people." Who the heck are these most people.

 

[rolandg]

Seles often did, not Graf. Sanchez was a hell opponent for Graf, a much worse matchup for Graf then she was for Seles, the same way Novotna and Hingis were worse matchups for Seles then Graf. Even in 1996 when Seles was in a diminished state, partially due to stabbing likely, partially due to shoulder injuries, and Graf was clearly the superior player by then, Seles still had a much easier time beating up Sanchez Vicario then did Graf. So yes for Graf to beat up on Sanchez Vicario that way was incredible for her, and showed she was in a rare level of exceptional form.

I also find your comment peculiar in a general sense. Sanchez Vicario was by far the best player in the world not named Steffi Graf or Monica Seles from mid 1992 to late 1996, always the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world, and in fact probably the best player in the world in 1994. Most people looked sublime playing her? Hell almost everyone not named Graf or Seles looked like a clown most times playing her. Do you really think Conchita Martinez, Jana Novotna, Mary Pierce, Anke Hubert, Iva Majoli, Kimiko Date, or Mary Joe Fernandez, who pretty much made up the rest of the top 10 then looked "sublime" playing her? Hard to say that when they were losing almost everytime, sometimes badly. You could have atleast narrowed your comment to Seles and Graf (and you would still be wrong on Graf for the msot part) rather then saying "most people." Who the heck are these most people.

Everyone but Seles, Graf, Navratilova and Sabatini were piles of cack in those days, so you listing the players that had trouble with Sanchez just remins me how awful women's tennis was back then, after the top 4.

Honestly, history has been very, very kind to Sanchez.

 

[hewittboy]

Everyone but Seles, Graf, Navratilova and Sabatini were piles of cack in those days, so you listing the players that had trouble with Sanchez just remins me how awful women's tennis was back then, after the top 4.

Honestly, history has been very, very kind to Sanchez.

Please dont tell me you honestly think Sabatini was a greater player then Sanchez Vicario. I could concede she had more talent and potential to be a greater player but she certainly did not become so. I could start anywhere when comparing them but I will start at the easiest place, 4 slams > 1 slams.

That being said I do agree Sanchez Vicario was lucky in some respects. Certainly just as one could argue Graf being lucky with the Seles stabbing tragedy which we have been debating on this thread, Sanchez Vicario was extremely lucky with the Seles stabbing. As I already mentioned Seles is a much worse matchup for her then Graf, winning slams would be nearly impossible for her with both Graf and Seles in the draw. She was also lucky to win the 94 U.S Open final with Graf when she was getting murdered before Graf's back went out halfway through, and very lucky to win the 1998 French Open final with Seles where she somehow got to a 3rd set after being basically bullied the whole first 2 sets but Seles choking at the end of the 1st. That being said Sabatini could have also gained and benefited from the Seles stabbing to gain more slams and she failed to do. Sabatini had chances to win other slams and failed to do so. Thus Sanchez > Sabatini.

Their head to head was 12-11 Sabatini but counting their matches from 1986-1988 would be stupid for obvious reasons. Likewise I will discount Sabatini's matches with Sanchez in 1995 or 1996, except there was only 1 anyway so it doesnt really matter. Eliminating those matches their head to head from 1989-1994 was 10-7 Sanchez Vicario.

By the way there are luckier players in history then Sanchez Vicario. Jennifer Capriati anyone?

 

[Warriorroger]

I am wondering if all those people who talk about luck, play tennis themselves. You still have to win 7 matches to win a GS tournament. Why is it some players luck that the other player is out. Yes, the Seles Stabbing was a tragedy for the sport of tennis, women's tennis, but it happened. Same goes for the years Hingis took advantage when Graf was badly injured. Terrible things happen, the world keeps on turning and there is nothing fortunate about Graf's grand slams. She showed that too me by winning the 99 French Open. There is no saying Seles would have won the the 1993-1999 slams.

 

[britbox]

Graf led the head to head between the two, Before, during and after Seles prime. Graf also had a lot of issues outside of tennis, a series of injuries, rubella etc... during Seles prime. Maybe the real question should be - would Seles have won all her slams against a peak Graf? No, she wouldn't.

I think Seles would have picked up around another 5 or 6 slams, with maybe 2 or 3 coming at Graf's expense.

 

[380pistol]

I do believe Seles' stabbing aided Graf in her slam title consumption but how much?? Someone mentioned one of Graf's major accomplishments was winning each major 4 times, and if Seles wasn't stabbed she would not have accomplished this. I'm not so sure. Before the stabbing Graf had....
3 Australian Opens
2 French Opens
4 Wimbledons
2 US Opens

So 4 at each is very possible. Also during 1991-92 where Seles particiapted in 7 of 8 slams winning 6 she went 1-3 vs Graf and didn't beat Graf outside of clay, despite Steffi's injuries and persoal problems.

 

[anointedone]

I do believe Seles' stabbing aided Graf in her slam title consumption but how much?? Someone mentioned one of Graf's major accomplishments was winning each major 4 times, and if Seles wasn't stabbed she would not have accomplished this. I'm not so sure. Before the stabbing Graf had....
3 Australian Opens
2 French Opens
4 Wimbledons
2 US Opens

So 4 at each is very possible. Also during 1991-92 where Seles particiapted in 7 of 8 slams winning 6 she went 1-3 vs Graf and didn't beat Graf outside of clay, despite Steffi's injuries and persoal problems.

I think 4 French Opens would have been the biggest challenges. I could see Graf winning 2 more U.S Opens and the 94 Australian Open. I am not sure whether she wins 2 more French Opens or not. I think it depends alot on whether she would have still won in 1999, and if she could she probably is able to scrape out one in the inevitable year somewhere Seles doesnt win from 1993-1996.

During the period Seles was off from the stabbing Graf only won 6 of the 10 slams anyway though. There is probably no player who would have won a slam with both Seles and Graf there, so even if one thinks Seles would have won 6 or 7 of the 10 then Graf would still win 3 or 4, only 2 or 3 less then she did.

 

[tennis-hero]

I hated Seles

felt sorry for her when she got stabbed but ultimatley if she wasn't strong enough to get back, then its her loss

sucks to be her.

i don't like the ifs, tennis has so many

if Andre played the AO more, would he have 12+ slams (and with 12+ slams and a career GS i'd rate him ahead of pete)

Could Laver have won 2 Calenders if he had faced real competetion, not ametueurs and rivals in their late 30s

if Borg could play on clay, why couldn't he win on US slam clay, or for that matter, why couldn't he win at the US slam ever?

borg played the AO aswell... couldn't win that either

OF Nadal didn't exist could Rog have done the double calender grand slam already?

IF Federer didnt exist how many more slams would Rafa/Roddick/Hewitt/Safin have won?

if grass was 90s grass could Rafa get past the 3rd round?

 

[Wuornos]

Steffi Graf is a legend with 22 Grand Slam singles titles and is probably most instrumental in bringing in the power and aggression we see in the women’s game today.

However, it is interesting to speculate what might have been if Monica Seles was not attacked in April 1993. At that point, she was number1 in the world, having already won 8 Grand Slams to Graf’s 11. Their head to head in Grand Slam finals was 3-1 Seles.

Seles was in a dominant position at that time and post stabbing, Graf went on to win 11 more Slams. Her closest rival after Seles was Aranxta Sanchez who although a tough player was not the same level.

Thus some of Graf’s greatness can be attributed to the fact that she did not face any huge rivals from 93-99 so I consider her a bit fortunate

Depends whether you use a simple major count to evaluate a player or whether you can adjust domination for the quality of opposition.

Personally I believe Graf had already proved her greatness, by which i mean #2 in the list of women singles players post WWII, before the emergence of Seles.

The unfortunate events with Seles just deprived Seles of the opportunity to prove she was better than #3. I already had Seles ranked above both Court and Evert with only the smallest of gap separating her proven peak from Graf's in 1989.

It is precisely because of events like this and differing career lengths that Major count has to be considered a crude barometer of talent at best.