Stop with the Serena is greatest nonsense

[McEnborg]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

 

[NadalAgassi]

The tournament counts of Navratilova and Evert are just proof of what a royal joke womens tennis was before the 90s at the earliest. Back then everyone not named Navratilova and Evert totally sucked, and they barely broke a sweat winning all matches to reach every final for 20 years, so of course they could win 200 tournaments. You will see players win that many titles again, the game is far too physical and competitive now for that to even be possible. For me Serena is #1 or #2 all time or atleast in the Open Era, with Graf the only one possability over her, and Navratilova a strong 3rd (Court and Evert tied for 4th).

 

[mmk]

Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for Günter Parche

 

[kishnabe]

Serena would thrash them both at their peaks.

For what Martina went through from media oppression, facing hatred for her being a lesbian and beating Americian Sweetheart, and her total dominance.

Martina is the greatest. Though I would put money on Serena best to beat Martina best.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for Günter Parche

Nonsense.

Seles is overrated, and had no game for Wimbledon..as in winning it.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for Günter Parche

She would probably still have atleast 20. Even if Seles had won 8 slams in the 93-96 period total (IMO very generous) that would still leave Graf with atleast 8 which would her 20 total.

Either way the Graf-Seles era as far as overall competition, while I step up from the Navratilova-Evert era is still nothing like the last 15 years where womens tennis has finally become a real sport as far as depth. None of those players would win as many slams playing in Serena's era as they did in their own.

 

[TennisDawg]

The tournament counts of Navratilova and Evert are just proof of what a royal joke womens tennis was before the 90s at the earliest. Back then everyone not named Navratilova and Evert totally sucked, and they barely broke a sweat winning all matches to reach every final for 20 years, so of course they could win 200 tournaments. You will see players win that many titles again, the game is far too physical and competitive now for that to even be possible. For me Serena is #1 or #2 all time or atleast in the Open Era, with Graf the only one possability over her, and Navratilova a strong 3rd (Court and Evert tied for 4th).

I agree with your post. All I say is just take a look at an old film of a match between Evert and any of her opponents and it's like you wanna say "somebody please put the ball away and can't you run any faster for crying out loud" Martina and Billie Jean King dominating with S/V in womens tennis, really? I mean really? Back then if a female player was tall and strong looking they moved like cows, not so nowadays. Evert and Martina would be scrubs in todays tennis.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Pam Shriver who couldnt hit a groundstroke, moved like a handicapt, and couldnt do anything except hit a pretty serve and pretty good volley, was the World #4 the majority of the 80s. Draw your own conclusions. Evert and Navratilova's toughest opponent by far was a 15-17 year old Tracy Austin, a tiny one dimensional baseliner with no serve, no net game, and no variety, before her career fell apart from injuries starting at 17, and she was basically retired before 20. Nobody came close to giving them the trouble this Tracy did, and she did more damage in only 2 years than anyone else of their long era could do in their whole careers against them until Graf emerged. Again draw your own conclusions.

 

[spinovic]

I'm not interested in all the other arguments, but I agree in general with the original post. I think Serena needs to win a few more slams to seriously be in the discussion. I think her inconsistency through the years have hurt her. She should already have more slams, but it seems that she just lost interest at times in addition to some bad luck with injuries/health problems. At the same time, that has limited the wear and tear on her body and is probably part of the reason she's still playing so well at 30+.

She's still playing great and still has time to get there though...if she can stay healthy and keep her focus. But, she's getting older and when her movement declines, I think she's done. Winning another French would help.

 

[NadalAgassi]

The biggest reason many are now starting to see Serena as the GOAT is:

1. She is dominant and by far the best player on the planet at age 31. No player has ever done that at that age ever before. The closet was Court being the #1 player and winning a couple slams at 30. Navratilova who is seen as the late blooming queen even lost her #1 and best in the Worlds status to Steffi Graf at age 30, and was then literally Grand Slammed out of current relevance altogether by Graf at age 31.

2. Her peak level of play (2002-2003) and other instances (Olympics this past year) is the highest ever seen by a women. This is undisputable.

3. She dominated the toughest and deepest womens field in tennis history from 1999-2005.

4. Her unmatched Olympics record.

5. She is the only women in the post Navratilova years to be dominant in both singles and doubles.

6. Her serve is the greatest single shot in tennis history, overtaking the Graf forehand which previously was. She has the overall most powerful game in history as well. She also has a very complete game without a single weakness.

 

[barry]

All I know is when Serena plays I turn it off and don't watch.
Why watch an inferior product like the WTA, when the ATP is so much better, and Serena could not beat a top 100 ATP player.

 

[chatt_town]

That's a fair statement. I am a big Serena fan but that is very fair.

Serena would thrash them both at their peaks.

For what Martina went through from media oppression, facing hatred for her being a lesbian and beating Americian Sweetheart, and her total dominance.

Martina is the greatest. Though I would put money on Serena best to beat Martina best.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Navratilova is not the greatest. She was no more dominant than Graf and Court at their peaks, as they also lost 2 matches a year in their best year, in fact she was less as she couldnt win the Grand Slam as they managed. Her longevity is overrated considering her longevity on peak level or dominant player is far less than all of Graf, Court, Evert, and Serena. All of her non Wimbledons came in a 5 year span 1982-1987. Her only two 3 slam years happened in 1983-1984. Graf and Court had 3 slam years 8 and 11 years apart. Her consistency is by far the worst of all the GOAT candidates. Her versatility is also the worst, with relatively speaking weaker performances on clay and rebound ace. Her competition was not strong, the 82-86 era was one of the weakest in history. Evert even faced far more depth during her reign from 74-81.

I personally think Court and Evert should even rank over Navratilova. Graf and Serena above her are a no brainer IMO, especialy Graf.

 

[Amelie Mauresmo]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

The problem with those Graf, Evert, Navratilova records is about TIME and different ERAs. Big deal, Graf won 107 WTA events you do realize how pathetic the WTA was in the late 1980s, Steffi just had to step on the court and she would win a match 6-0 6-1. Steffi's opponents did not have the mental toughness or the belief they can BEAT HER. You cannot compare eras because in the past the depth just wasn't there.

Remember Graf destroying Natasha Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in 32 minutes to win the 1988 French Open. It was such a disgrace that result it showed the lack of depth in the women's game.

Look, OP back in the 70s, 80s, and 1990s, women's tennis had very little depth 1 or 2 women in total were dominating the game. Women's tennis was a complete joke everyone knew in the early to mid 1980s Navratilova or Evert would WIN the slams. That was boring. Tracy Austin and Hana Mandlikova offered a slight resistence to Evert and Navatilova but not much. Tracy Austin got injured I really feel if Tracy didn't have the back problems she could have been amazing.

In the late 1980s Graf blew Evert and Navratiova off the court due to her power and youth. Monica Seles came along in 1990 an even younger player and she dominated Graf 3-1 in slams prior to her stabbing. Seles was Graf's only rival but once she got stabbed and out of the way Steffi dominated again.

Serena Williams has do to compete against multiple slam champions her sister Venus, Justine Henin, Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

I think Serena is BETTER than Evert, Navratilova, and Graf BECAUSE she has competed against THREE GENERATIONS on the WTA tour and she's consistently dominated them.

Serena is the oldest number one in women's tennis history there is NEVER going to be another woman like her with her intensity, her huge serve, and her mental toughness.

Graf, Evert, Navratilova, could always count on their opppnents choking against them and finding a way to lose.

Serena is amazing because the DEPTH in women's tennis is so much greater now. The women are serving bigger, they are stronger physically and mentally too.

Graf's 22 slam record is inflated because Monica Seles got stabbed by Gunther Parche. When Monica Seles was gone Steffi of course dominated the inferior competition the Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna, Sanchez Vicario, Mary Joe Fernandez type players. Sanchez Vicario challenged Graf a little bit but she also lost several major finals against Graf during her second period of dominance from 1993 to 1996.

 

[The Meat]

Why is this discussion still happening? Different eras, different players....

 

[struggle]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

I'm baggin' what you are mowing. And I agree. Martina's GS total (all disciplines) is staggering to be sure.

So instead of greatest ever, we'll just go with best ever......as in nobody in history (at top form) is beating Serena (in top form).
Different eras, equipment etc.....sure but i'd still put my money on her no matter. Her game translates well to other eras.

 

[Amelie Mauresmo]

I'm not interested in all the other arguments, but I agree in general with the original post. I think Serena needs to win a few more slams to seriously be in the discussion. I think her inconsistency through the years have hurt her. She should already have more slams, but it seems that she just lost interest at times in addition to some bad luck with injuries/health problems. At the same time, that has limited the wear and tear on her body and is probably part of the reason she's still playing so well at 30+.

She's still playing great and still has time to get there though...if she can stay healthy and keep her focus. But, she's getting older and when her movement declines, I think she's done. Winning another French would help.

Serena's inconsistency I believe is due to her body she gets injured A LOT. Serena's also had personal problems which I believe people are ignoring.

Some people act like Serena isn't a human being with feelings and emotions and doesn't get hurt by the BIGOTRY she's experienced in tennis.

The USA tennis establishment is ONLY being "nice" to Serena Williams now because they realize she's only got a short time left in the game.

American tennis is in the toilet WITHOUT Serena Williams she's been the leader of American tennis for several years winning a lot of grand slams.

But the RACISM is something I don't like how people casually ignore and the negative treatment Serena has received because she's an outspoken and confident black woman.

A lot of people also ignore the fact Serena Williams is a pioneer along with her sister Venus they changed the game for women's tennis in terms of power.

But another issue people ignore is the RACISM the Williams Sisters especially Serena endured from the racist USA tennis establishment.

You have AMERICAN tennis commentators openly ROOTING for a foreigner to beat Serena Williams simply because the opponent is white.

Nobody seems to think how did this racism affect Serena emotionally and psychologically? Serena is constantly being criticized, attacked, because she's a black woman dominating a white country club sport. People make all kinds of excuses but I think the RACISM affected Serena more than Venus.

Mary Carillo isn't hiding her RACISM against Serena Williams she's constantly attacking her. Does anyone honestly believe Carillo would EVER attack the white American female players like Lindsay Davenport or Jennifer Capriati in the same cruel manner?

I believe this is part of the reason why only NOW has she seriously got going racking up the slams. People also ignore the fact in 2003 Serena's older sister Yetunde was murdered and it shocked her and she became depressed. People act like tennis players do NOT have a life off the court. Serena is still around because she did NOT burnout she realized she needed to stay away from tennis for a while during her time of grief in order to get her confidence back and be fresh.

 

[ollinger]

The OP's stats about tournament wins tell us very little about who was the better player. Navratilova played over 1600 singles matches in her careeer; Serena has played about 700. Likewise for some of the other all-time greats who played alot more tennis than Serena in their careers. Analyzing these numbers makes even less sense in that Serena's career is still in progress and the others were completed long ago. Talent and longevity are two different issues; both Evert and Navratilova have said they consider Serena the most talented female ever to play the game.

 

[NadalAgassi]

The problem with those Graf, Evert, Navratilova records is about TIME and different ERAs. Big deal, Graf won 107 WTA events you do realize how pathetic the WTA was in the late 1980s, Steffi just had to step on the court and she would win a match 6-0 6-1. Steffi's opponents did not have the mental toughness or the belief they can BEAT HER. You cannot compare eras because in the past the depth just wasn't there.

Remember Graf destroying Natasha Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in 32 minutes to win the 1988 French Open. It was such a disgrace that result it showed the lack of depth in the women's game.

Look, OP back in the 70s, 80s, and 1990s, women's tennis had very little depth 1 or 2 women in total were dominating the game. Women's tennis was a complete joke everyone knew in the early to mid 1980s Navratilova or Evert would WIN the slams. That was boring. Tracy Austin and Hana Mandlikova offered a slight resistence to Evert and Navatilova but not much. Tracy Austin got injured I really feel if Tracy didn't have the back problems she could have been amazing.

So true. Just look at what Navratilova, Graf, and Seles faced while on top:

Navratilova 1982-1986: A joke era. A worst ever slumping Evert (82-84) or aging 30-32 year old Evert (84-86) was her only competition, along with Hana in late 85-86. The rest of the top 10 were an old Turnbull Shriver, a bunch of second tier Germans like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, Bunge, or second tier Americans like Gaudesek, Rinaldi, Potter. Graf and Sabatini were only 13-16 year olds in 85 and 86 and obviously not ready to challenge at the very top.

Graf 1987-1990 and 1993-1996: Navratilova, and on faster courts only, was her only competition in the first part, along with Sabatini. Then after Seles was stabbed Sanchez was her only competition.

Seles 1990-1993: Her only competition was Graf in her worst ever slump, losing 7 of 8 matches to Sabatini at one point, and not even playing Seles in a major match for 2 whole years at one point, and a now mid 30s Navratilova. Mostly beating Mary Joe Fernandez or Aranxta Sanchez Vicario in slam semis or finals.


Graf and Seles, as well as Navratilova and Evert never faced each other at their best apart from maybe Navratilova and Evert in 78-79 so they didnt even have each other as competition really. They had nothing. Serena has faced Venus, Henin, Davenport, Clijsters, Hingis, Sharapova, and many other multi slam winners at their best for many years.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

She has great records and credentials.
That said , i dont like her (i do like her game) and hence she cant be a GOAT in my book.

 

[McEnborg]

If Serena is SOOOO dominant, why has she lost several times to Azerenka, to Sloane Stephens recently and NOT have won a French since 2002. That is NOT consistently a dominant player.

 

[NadalAgassi]

If Serena is SOOOO dominant, why has she lost several times to Azerenka, to Sloane Stephens recently and NOT have won a French since 2002. That is NOT consistently a dominant player.

Lets look at other players at 31 now:

Navratilova- In her 4 slams got spanked by 34 year old Chris Evert in the semis, lost to Natalia Zvereva (who lost 0 and 0 to Graf in the final) in the round of 16, lost to Zina Garrison even after Garrison choked a 6-4, 5-0 lead at the U.S Open in the quarters, and lost 12 of the last 13 games to Steffi Graf in the Wimbledon final. Lost 3 times that year to the useless 32 minute slam final loser Zvereva.

Graf- Wasnt doing anything since she retired at 30. Instead lets evaluate her at age 28 instead- lost 3 times in less than 6 months to Coetzer including a 6-1, 6-0 loss, and then went on to lose in slams to Schnyder, the aforementioned useless Zvereva who she had dished out the biggest all time slam final humiliation to 10 years younger, and Coetzer again twice.

Seles- Wasnt doing anything since she retired at 29. Her final slam title was at age 22 though.


Serenas loss to Sloane was purely injury related and you know that full well. So her worst true loss since last years RG, now as a 31 women, was losing to the winner of 2 of the last 5 slams and last years year end #1 Azarenka once (beating her the other 4 times they played in the last year, usually badly, and scaring her into a fake injury WD already once this year). Wow so horrible.

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

I think when we discuss GOATS we have to bear in mind the eras they played and the different technologies, playing conditions and depth.
Serena is by far and away the greatest player of not just an era but beyond that, covering as her dominant periods do, two eras. From her dominant period of 2002-2003, only Venus remains on tour. Her current period of being number one has not proved to be so dominant but she is nevertheless the woman to beat and holds more of the big titles of the past twelve months than any other player and comfortably leads her rivals, aged 23 and 25, in head to heads.
There is also no doubt in my mind that there is more depth in tennis now in the early rounds of tournaments than ever. Improved technology and developments in sports science means the women are more athletic, hit harder and are fitter. And so Serena is more liable to be beaten in earlier rounds by a player such as Makarova or Razzano than her GOAT rivals. However, I am loathe to say that Serena's competition has been that much better than Graf for example. I consider Seles, Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez and Novotna as equally great competition as Venus, Henin, Clisters, Sharapova, Davenport and Capriati, the latter two being Graf's opposition, too.
So I can see why, taking into account greater depth affecting Serena's overall tournament wins, plus her longevity, Serena could be seen as the GOAT. Nevertheless, it is not an argument I agree with.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Sanchez was a big old moonballer who probably would have won only 1 slam without the Seles stabbing. Sabatini and Novotna are mentally fragile 1 slam wonders who lacked firepower or big weapons in their game. How on earth are they close to on pare with Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Davenport, and Capriati in caliber of play. Sanchez is comparable to those except Venus and Henin in achievements, but definitely not level of tennis.

Grafs only real competition was Seles and Navratilova, and Seles was missing for 2.5 years due to the stabbing, and Navratilova was only in her prime for about 3 years of Grafs long reign. I do agree those you mentioned were tougher competition and gave the Graf era alot more depth than the Navratilova era though. Navratilova had even poorer competition than Graf.

 

[フェデラー]

If Serena is SOOOO dominant, why has she lost several times to Azerenka, to Sloane Stephens recently and NOT have won a French since 2002. That is NOT consistently a dominant player.

French is explainable by the fact that she was competing against one of the clay court GOATS Justine, who won the title in 03, 05, 06, 07. Serena has had more competition on clay than on any other surface. Henin, Capriati, Kuznetsova beat her in 08 (one of the better female players that I think is way underrated), and Stosur who actually has a great surve and if she wasn't such a damn headcase would probably be multi slam champion. But even then, I think Serena should have way more FO's than just one. She won Madrid beating Woz, Sharapova, and Azarenka and won charleston as well, made it to the semis of Rome but pulled out with injury.

Just because she hasn't dominated the FO doesn't mean anything. Would you say Federer is not a dominant champion because he only won it once in '09? Fact of the matter is she has dominated every other part of the sport, with 5 AOs, 5 Wimbledons, 4 US Opens, 3 Tour Championships, and 4 Gold Medals.

I also don't know where you get the idea she's been losing to Azarenka a lot lately. Once in four years LOL (overall H2H is 11-2). Also I don't think losing once to Sloane when being injured is "several times".

 

[MonkeyBoy]

6. Her serve is the greatest single shot in tennis history, overtaking the Graf forehand which previously was. She has the overall most powerful game in history as well. She also has a very complete game without a single weakness.

sucks on clay

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

The biggest reason many are now starting to see Serena as the GOAT is:

1. She is dominant and by far the best player on the planet at age 31. No player has ever done that at that age ever before. The closet was Court being the #1 player and winning a couple slams at 30. Navratilova who is seen as the late blooming queen even lost her #1 and best in the Worlds status to Steffi Graf at age 30, and was then literally Grand Slammed out of current relevance altogether by Graf at age 31.

Serena has had long injury breaks from the tour which have spared her body somewhat. She is Agassi like in that respect. One wonders if she would still be at it had she spent her mid twenties dominating like her GOAT rivals.

2. Her peak level of play (2002-2003) and other instances (Olympics this past year) is the highest ever seen by a women. This is undisputable.

I dispute it. I give Seles 1991-1993 and Graf 1995-1996 as counter-arguments. Serena's dominant periods come third in my book.

3. She dominated the toughest and deepest womens field in tennis history from 1999-2005.

She did not dominate from 1999-2001 nor 2004-2005. She dominated from 2002-03 and I give you it was one of the deepest women's fields but not the deepest. I would say Seles dominated that when she saw off Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez and Novotna.

4. Her unmatched Olympics record.

Olympics were not played for real medals in the open era before 1988. It is also debatable how important Olympics are to a player's legacy considering their recent addition and also the fact they are not the pinnacle of a tennis player's career and thus not truly part of the Olympic spirit.

5. She is the only women in the post Navratilova years to be dominant in both singles and doubles.

She is hardly dominant as a doubles player. She wins Slams but no more. She is also not greater than Navratilova in this category and Navratilova is one of her GOAT rivals.

6. Her serve is the greatest single shot in tennis history, overtaking the Graf forehand which previously was. She has the overall most powerful game in history as well. She also has a very complete game without a single weakness.


I still give it to Graf's forehand on account of the fact that it is not the first shot played in a point and the player has to take into account their opponent's effect on the ball when they hit the shot. I would agree she has the most powerful game in history but that is inevitable as she is the greatest player of her era which happens to be the most modern and with the most advanced technologies in sports. As for not having a single weakness, I give you her movement which can be and is exploited by her opponents regarding which you can view Razzano's French Open win and Azarenka's Doha win if you need any evidence.

I await your response.

 

[NadalAgassi]

She doesnt suck on clay. She has won a French Open, been to atleast the quarters of the French most years since, won many Premier titles on clay, beaten everyone on the surface. So if one says Serena sucks on clay then you must say Kuznetsova, Sharapova, Ivanovic, Capriati, all suck on clay too, as she has achieved as much or more than all of them. The only clearly better or more successful clay courter in the last 15 years is Henin.

Serenas movement is not a weakness. She is one of the best movers of the current field in fact, even older and past her movement prime. Name a current list of players who move better, and you will be lucky to find a handful.

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

Sanchez was a big old moonballer who probably would have won only 1 slam without the Seles stabbing. Sabatini and Novotna are mentally fragile 1 slam wonders who lacked firepower or big weapons in their game. How on earth are they close to on pare with Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Davenport, and Capriati in caliber of play. Sanchez is comparable to those except Venus and Henin in achievements, but definitely not level of tennis.

From 2002-2003 when Serena dominated, Venus had a huge mental block against Serena, Henin and Clisters were still developing, Hingis was on her way out, Sharapova was not on the pro tour, Davenport was injured. The rest of the time some of those players actually beat Serena in Majors and were more dominant than she was, in particular Henin.

Grafs only real competition was Seles and Navratilova, and Seles was missing for 2.5 years due to the stabbing, and Navratilova was only in her prime for about 3 years of Grafs long reign. I do agree those you mentioned were tougher competition and gave the Graf era alot more depth than the Navratilova era though. Navratilova had even poorer competition than Graf.


I suggest you look at Graf''s record against Sabatini and her 1994 results against Vicario. Check out Novotna's Melbourn win in '91, too. Graf had weaknesses and her opponent's could exploit them much like Serena.

I await your response.

 

[NadalAgassi]

I suggest you look at Graf''s record against Sabatini and her 1994 results against Vicario. Check out Novotna's Melbourn win in '91, too.

Graf was in her worst ever slump from 1990-1993 which I already mentioned when discussing Seles also having not very good competition during her reign, and neither Graf or Seles ever having to face each other at their best (except for a blip in mid 92 perhaps). Graf had all 3 of her losses to Novotna from 91-93, outside of that she was an easy opponent always. Her win over Graf at the 91 Australian Open just indicates Grafs terrible 1991 level, nothing about her really. Novotna was also never a threat to win major titles on any surface besides grass or carpet. She was never a contender at 3 of the 4 slams.

Vicario was great in 1994, taking her game to a whole new level but she never duplicated that form again before or after.

 

[sureshs]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157.

During Martina's time, only two women played tennis. It is different now.

 

[DRII]

N.A., you usually are very rational and discerning but when it comes to Serena you sometime lose proper perspective.

Remember, Serena won a slew of her slams during a very weak period as well (as weak or weaker than Everet-Navatrilova or Graf-Seles post stabbing times).

Also Serena was not the only one to dominate certain years or time spans during the peak years of women's tennis (late 90's till about mid 2000's); Venus, Davenport, Henin, Capriati all had very good years in that time span that eclipsed Serena's performance at some point.

And if we decide to overlook actual records and go by a qualitative perspective, Serena is not clearly the best woman to pick up a tennis racquet. Others would pick different players and would be justified in their own personal choices. I personally put Venus' peak ahead of Serena's. Venus was faster, more athletic, had more pace off the ground, had a bigger serve, and would win more service winners (not aces) than Serena peak vs peak.

I know some others would choose Graf as the best, having far superior footwork and variety vs Serena.

So if or until Serena at least matches Graf's 22 slams, her undisputed GOAT honors are a fairy tale...

 

[fluffyyelloballz]

Graf was in her worst ever slump from 1990-1993 which I already mentioned when discussing Seles also having not very good competition during her reign, and neither Graf or Seles ever having to face each other at their best (except for a blip in mid 92 perhaps). Graf had all 3 of her losses to Novotna from 91-93, outside of that she was an easy opponent always. Her win over Graf at the 91 Australian Open just indicates Grafs terrible 1991 level, nothing about her really. Novotna was also never a threat to win major titles on any surface besides grass or carpet. She was never a contender at 3 of the 4 slams.

Vicario was great in 1994, taking her game to a whole new level but she never duplicated that form again before or after.

Slump schmump. I don't think a player's slumps can be used as excuses for their lesser play or their opponent's wins over them. Players go out on to the court and play a tennis match. The winner is the better player on the day. I think most professional players would agree that the buck stops there. If a Novotna or a Mauresmo get a win over a Graf or a Serena, it can't be asterisked with an injury or a slump. It is as much to do with Novotna or Mauresmo being able enough to work out thier opponent's weakness that day and to take advantage of it.

Anyway, my point was that Graf had competition who could beat her as much as Serena did. Serena at some point has been beaten by all her rivals just as Steffi had and I think their main rivals have been pretty much equal and Steffi in Monica might have had by far the fiercest rival of the two.

In addition, Serena has not always played her best throughout her career either yet this cannot be put down to just slumps, injuries or personal problems and glossed over. All GOATS have had career highs and lows and it is how they recover from the lows that keeps them in the GOAT running, a quality that both Graf and Serena have displayed time and time again. But that is beside the point. The point is I gave you a list of players who competed with Graf that was as strong, in my opinion, as the list you gave for Serena and you dismissed it on the grounds of Steffi's slump or as a never repeated run of form, which I contest on the grounds that a slump is not an excuse and Sanchez won Majors in 1989 and 1998 and in 1995 and 1996 went back to back finals at RG and Wimby.

 

[Overdrive]

Williamstard forever....

:roll:

 

[Tanya]

Peak level of play, yes I believe Serena is the best player.

As far as achievements, despite being a big Williams fan, even I recognize she has a ways to go before she can be considered "greatest" in that regard.

I wish people would stop making these threads though! They're just breeding grounds for hate-fueled arguments and offer very little in terms of constructive discussion.

The first pages always start off O.K. but give it a few days and this will be closed just like all the others.....

sigh. inb4close i guess

 

[Sid_Vicious]

I don't understand why saying that peak Serena would destroy Peak Navratilova and Evert is such a compelling argument.

Hey, I'm not denying that Serena is a 1 in a million talent. She very well could be the greatest ever in terms of peak playing ability, but people on this forum give Laver/Borg/Lendl a lot of props when comparing them to Sampras/Federer/Nadal.

I don't see people giving the former top female players the same kind of respect when comparing them to the modern female champion, Serena.

 

[NadalAgassi]

I don't understand why saying that peak Serena would destroy Peak Navratilova and Evert is such a compelling argument.

Hey, I'm not denying that Serena is a 1 in a million talent. She very well could be the greatest ever in terms of peak playing ability, but people on this forum give Laver/Borg/Lendl a lot of props when comparing them to Sampras/Federer/Nadal.

I don't see people giving the former top female players the same kind of respect when comparing them to the modern female champion, Serena.

Part of that is womens tennis has only truly been a competitive sport in the last 20 years max. When Evert and Navratilova played there were only 2 women who played tennis once King and Goolagong (and a young physically spent Austin) had retired, as one poster said, and that was in the 80s so less than 30 years ago! Mens tennis has been a competitive sport for many years.

 

[Ginger ninja]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).i

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

Graf is the greatest.
Martina is nr 2 on that list.
Serena comes in a distant 3rd (but ahead of Chris evert)

 

[martini1]

During Martina's time, only two women played tennis. It is different now.

You are right, back then women's tennis didn't allow full time models selling products to pick up a racket and push on court. :lol:

 

[70後]

1980's, between 1982 and 1988, was a ridiculously shallow era in womens tennis.

 

[adil1972]

Steffi might have had a few less slam titles had it not been for Günter Parche

agree absolutely a die hard seles fan

 

[Phoenix1983]

The biggest reason many are now starting to see Serena as the GOAT is:

Once again, "many" are not seeing Serena as GOAT. Only a few like yourself. I wish you would stop making such pronouncements.

 

[McEnborg]

Greatest player of all time does not win only ONE French. People point to Federer only winning one French. BUT...Fed has gotten to FIVE French finals and several French semis. He's accomplished far more in his weakest major than Serena has.

Greatest player also implies DURABILITY and CONSISTENCY. Serena has been injured a lot, she's been FAT before, she's been non-focused. It all goes with best ever. She's not even close.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Greatest player of all time does not win only ONE French. People point to Federer only winning one French. BUT...Fed has gotten to FIVE French finals and several French semis. He's accomplished far more in his weakest major than Serena has

By your own criteria, just WINNING a single FO is not the credit of a GOAT, so Federer--in no surpise--is out of that conversation, as reaching additional finals is not winning at all.

 

[Tanya]

Greatest player also implies DURABILITY and CONSISTENCY. Serena has been injured a lot, she's been FAT before, she's been non-focused. It all goes with best ever..

...and she has won slams as a FAT, INJURED, and NON-FOCUSED player...

need I remind you of the 07 AO final drubbing where Sharapova was lucky to come away with 3 games against FAT Serena ranked 87 in the world?

or the 2010 AO final where an injured Serena, barely moving, clowned Justine Henin in the 3rd set after an UNFOCUSED 2nd set which saw her lose something like 15 points in a row?

 

[Steffi-forever]

The biggest reason many are now starting to see Serena as the GOAT is:

1. She is dominant and by far the best player on the planet at age 31. No player has ever done that at that age ever before. The closet was Court being the #1 player and winning a couple slams at 30. Navratilova who is seen as the late blooming queen even lost her #1 and best in the Worlds status to Steffi Graf at age 30, and was then literally Grand Slammed out of current relevance altogether by Graf at age 31.

2. Her peak level of play (2002-2003) and other instances (Olympics this past year) is the highest ever seen by a women. This is undisputable.

3. She dominated the toughest and deepest womens field in tennis history from 1999-2005.

4. Her unmatched Olympics record.

5. She is the only women in the post Navratilova years to be dominant in both singles and doubles.

6. Her serve is the greatest single shot in tennis history, overtaking the Graf forehand which previously was. She has the overall most powerful game in history as well. She also has a very complete game without a single weakness.

Graf & Serena

Graf has more Grand Slam titles than Serena, more French Open, more Wimbledon, more US Open, more Masters, more weeks at n° 1, more year-ends at n° 1, more consecutive Grand Slam finals, a Golden Slam, defending all the Grand Slam at leats 2 times, made the final of all the Grand Slam at leats 5 times each (Serena has one fluke French Open & her sister no less ), more consecutive weeks in the top 2(from march '87 to june '97) more little Slam with 4, won all the Grand Slam on every surface at least 6 times each, better % W-L, more titles, better peak (88-89 is the greatest 2 seasons back-to-back with 7 slams + 1 final)

Serena has more Australian Open and a better Olympics resumé.

It is not even close. :?

The only reasons Serena has won so many slams since 2008 is because she didn't do much in in middle of the noughties, and also because the field is so weak. Players such as Ivanovic, Jankovic, Safina and Wozniacki became n° 1. Do you think Evert, Navratilova or Graf would have let Manuela Maleeva or Mary Joe Fernandez becoming n° 1 in their prime?

And Serena has so many bad lost in her "prime" years :

2002: Shaughnessy, Schnyder, Rubin
2004: Petrova, Jidkova
2005: Jankovic (#28 ), Farina Elia, Schiavone, Craybas, Sun
2006: Hantuchova, Zvonareva (#50)
2007: Bammer, Chan, Schnyder (2 times), Chakvetadze
2008: Safina (#17), Srebotnik, Wozniak, Li (#30)
2009: Zakopalola, Schnyder, Schiavone (#45), Bammer, Petrova
2010: Petrova
2012: Makarova, Razzano

Steffi's prime was around '86 to '96. Only Bradtke in '93 and Coetzer in '95 were really bad. And Steffi is 5-0 & Jennifer Capriati in Grand Slam tournaments, Serena is 3-4. :?... while Capriati had better % W-L in the early 90's than in the early 00's.

To say that Serena is the best is just

 

[Fiji]

Serena Williams has won 48 WTA events.

Martina won 167. Evert won 157. Graf won 107.

Martina has 18 grand slam titles and 377 weeks as World's Number One. She has a combined 350 total titles, including doubles and mixed.

Evert has 332 weeks at number One and 18 grand slam titles.

Graf has TWENTY TWO grand slam titles and 262 weeks at number One.


Serena has 130 weeks at number One. She has 15 slam titles but she has only won ONE French Open--JUST ONE (11 years ago).

When Serena is on with her all power game, she can be awesome. But, to say she's the best of all time is a freaking disgrace and shows a person's unintelligence. Serena's lack of consistency and durability, bad losses, minimal success on clay and other factors make it a pathetic argument to call her the greatest.

This. She is NOWHERE near the GOAT discussion. The current WTA is the weakest ever.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Once again, "many" are not seeing Serena as GOAT. Only a few like yourself. I wish you would stop making such pronouncements.

Many experts whose opinions carry 1000x more weight than yours are starting to talk about Serena as the possible GOAT. Only a few like yourself would be the idea Sharapova is the biggest threat to an in form Serena, no that would only be an extreme few on the whole planet like yourself, nobody else.

 

[フェデラー]

Many experts whose opinions carry 1000x more weight than yours are starting to talk about Serena as the possible GOAT. Only a few like yourself would be the idea Sharapova is the biggest threat to an in form Serena, no that would only be an extreme few on the whole planet like yourself, nobody else.

Pretty sure Evert calls Serena the GOAT every time she sees her play.

Also, Serena will probably never be goat in terms of no.1 weeks and total titles, maybe slams if she's lucky, but her serve, her groundstrokes, her athleticism, are what modern women's tennis should be. It is what every woman should aspire to play like, not this nonsense that Sharapova puts forth.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Pretty sure Evert calls Serena the GOAT every time she sees her play.

Evert indeed does, as do Shriver, Austin, Drysdale, both McEnroes, much of the BBC team during their Wimbledon coverage, many of Serena's peers on the current tour, much of the staff of Tennis Magazine. Graf and Navratilova have even said Serena has the most raw ability of any tennis player ever.