Tactics for the RG 2019 final

[Tennis_Hands]

With the final starting shortly I would like to hear thoughts about Nadal's and Thiem's choice of tactics.

Given the substantial difference in the path to the final I think that there is a good chance that Nadal will try to bog Thiem down with long rallies, applying as much physicality as possible early in the match, but only after he tries to secure the first set with a mix of ultra aggressive play on his own serve, and heavy hitting in Thiem's service games (until he gets a break).

Nadal will try to lure Thiem in going for his IO FH and will wait for him on his FH side for DTL finishes. Hopefully Thiem will not fall for that.

On the BH side Nadal will try to draw Thiem in with slices and pass him CC.

The battle for the mid court will decide if Nadal will work the ultra aggressive tactic or not: if he is not successful to throw Thiem off rhythm with variety of depth he will try to just blow him off the court with his own IO FH and BH DTL.

Recently Thiem has been running around his BH too much for my liking. Nadal will look to expose that.

Thiem's best chance is to dominate mid court and be excellent on the return. Also, he needs to hit deep. If he succeeds in that he has a decent chance. Anything short (pun) of that will be severely punished.

What is your take?

 

[Backspin1183]

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Roger Federer liked this post.
He probably prefers Nadal getting a 12th RG title over Nole getting another title here.

 

[Lleytonstation]

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That, was NOT a slice.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Hit to the backhand, no?

 

[Backspin1183]

That, was NOT a slice.

That probably was the final backhand winner to win the match.

 

[Backspin1183]

Hit to the backhand, no?

Simple yet this is gonna be a very effective strategy going in, as long as he can also go down the line when needed and throw in some drop shots and volleys.

For Thiem, he would need to serve big and make less unforced errors, and hit big off both wings.

 

[MichaelNadal]

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Roger Federer liked this post.
He probably prefers Nadal getting a 12th RG title over Nole getting another title here.

My boo

 

[yokied]

I think Dominic's plan A has to be margin ie the complete reverse of the USO match. I'm not convinced Rafa can go with him all day in a street fight straight up the middle two thirds of the court, especially on the FH. And Thiem telling him that with a conservative plan would help IMHO.

Thiem should just be at 85-90% power on serves and groundstrokes, trying to settle into the match and only thinking winners on the short balls, only thinking drop shots and slices for court position and change ups. Wait until the scoreboard tells you to redline power and placement so you can build up and not feel instant pressure.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Simple yet this is gonna be a very effective strategy going in, as long as he can also go down the line when needed and throw in some drop shots and volleys.

For Thiem, he would need to serve big and make less unforced errors, and hit big off both wings.

Surprisingly for me Thiem is avoiding overusing his BH. It is a smart thing as long as he hits big off his FH wing, so I would say that he needs to hit big only there (both CC and DTL). What worries me is that he gets the RPMs/heaviness behind the FH, but not the angles and angles are crucial against Nadal to break down his BH.

I disagree that he needs to serve big. The only thing he needs to do with his serve is good placement to set him up for neutral second ball. The only time he needs to serve big is when he needs to be clutch.

Drop shots are on the cards, but only if Nadal is standing too far behind the baseline. Nadal is fresh and will chase down most drop shots, if used when he is not very far from the base line.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

That, was NOT a slice.

He flattened that ball, for sure.

 

[tata]

Thiem will have to play a tight rope match.
He will have to pick his moments carefully when to stand his ground on the backhand and not fall back. And pick the moments to run around for forehand and not watch it fly back into the open court.
Throw in some short slices and drop shots. Last year it was so easy to see that when the ball got high on the backhand the rally went back to neutral or Nadal started to take control. Or... Hold serve and sort it out in a tie break.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Thiem will have to play a tight rope match.
He will have to pick his moments carefully when to stand his ground on the backhand and not fall back. And pick the moments to run around for forehand and not watch it fly back into the open court.
Throw in some short slices and drop shots. Last year it was so easy to see that when the ball got high on the backhand the rally went back to neutral or Nadal started to take control. Or... Hold serve and sort it out in a tie break.

Do you think that Tim could use some moonballing to the FH to force Nadal into flatter responses? A steeper drop of the ball is not as conductive as far as creating (and sustaining) topspin.

 

[Max G.]

I don't think this match is going to be tactically very deep. Thiem and Nadal both know their gameplans. Hit big, hit heavy, try to dominate with their forehand especially crosscourt. Rip some backhands too. Just comes down to who can execute better and keep hitting big for 5 sets.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Thiem's arm will get tired after a couple sets
I believe him when he says he feels ok after the Mummy match, but beating them both back to back in consecutive days (when Nadal has never lost a set to him at RG) is a MOMUMENTAL task.

 

[tata]

Do you think that Tim could use some moonballing to the FH to force Nadal into flatter responses? A steeper drop of the ball is not as conductive as far as creating (and sustaining) topspin.

For sure. Moon ball it back to Nadal and try force him back and get the ball high on him too. Better than short ball to pounce on. He's gota take that Chang like mentality against lendl. Even try drop shot serve returns and underarm serves with backspin since Nadal stands so far back. Or lunge in for a SABR. Win ugly. You don't need to hold back any punches against Nadal on clay.
Thiems going to have to use any and every trick in the book. In fact I endorse him to use the short underarm serve. Get Nadal thinking instead of auto pilot. Once Nadal starts standing closer to guard the short serve, serve big. Once he reverts to the back court, serve it short. Then watch Nadal mentally implode at something totally legal.

 

[sbengte]

With the final starting shortly I would like to hear thoughts about Nadal's and Thiem's choice of tactics.

Given the substantial difference in the path to the final I think that there is a good chance that Nadal will try to bog Thiem down with long rallies, applying as much physicality as possible early in the match, but only after he tries to secure the first set with a mix of ultra aggressive play on his own serve, and heavy hitting in Thiem's service games (until he gets a break).

Nadal will try to lure Thiem in going for his IO FH and will wait for him on his FH side for DTL finishes. Hopefully Thiem will not fall for that.

On the BH side Nadal will try to draw Thiem in with slices and pass him CC.

The battle for the mid court will decide if Nadal will work the ultra aggressive tactic or not: if he is not successful to throw Thiem off rhythm with variety of depth he will try to just blow him off the court with his own IO FH and BH DTL.

Recently Thiem has been running around his BH too much for my liking. Nadal will look to expose that.

Thiem's best chance is to dominate mid court and be excellent on the return. Also, he needs to hit deep. If he succeeds in that he has a decent chance. Anything short (pun) of that will be severely punished.

What is your take?

Start with making noise about playing 4 days in a row making the final grossly UNFAIR for one player. Just like Nadal would have done if he was made to play 4 days in a row.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

For sure. Moon ball it back to Nadal and try force him back and get the ball high on him too. Better than short ball to pounce on. He's gota take that Chang like mentality against lendl. Even try drop shot serve returns and underarm serves with backspin since Nadal stands so far back. Or lunge in for a SABR. Win ugly. You don't need to hold back any punches against Nadal on clay.
Thiems going to have to use any and every trick in the book. In fact I endorse him to use the short underarm serve. Get Nadal thinking instead of auto pilot. Once Nadal starts standing closer to guard the short serve, serve big. Once he reverts to the back court, serve it short. Then watch Nadal mentally implode at something totally legal.

I was hoping for that Chang reference. It brought a smile to my face.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

That probably was the final backhand winner to win the match.

He hit a FH winner to conclude it.
Did you miss last set bro??

 

[Lleytonstation]

Thiem's arm will get tired after a couple sets
I believe him when he says he feels ok after the Mummy match, but beating them both back to back in consecutive days (when Nadal has never lost a set to him at RG) is a MOMUMENTAL task.

Has anyone, ever beat #1 and #2 in back to back days at a slam?

 

[tata]

I was hoping for that Chang reference. It brought a smile to my face.

Because Chang showed how its done. Einsteins definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Thiem has to rattle Nadal the same way Chang rattled Lendl. If Nadal is allowed to ball bash into 1 handers all day then thiem should be allowed to expose Nadals dee court positioning all day.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Because Chang showed how its done. Einsteins definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Thiem has to rattle Nadal the same way Chang rattled Lendl. If Nadal is allowed to ball bash into 1 handers all day then thiem should be allowed to expose Nadals dee court positioning all day.

Exactly what I was thinking. Thiem is not going to outnadal Nadal, especially considering their path to the final. It is just not happening.

He needs to find his own mix of steadiness and aggression and apply it to neutralise Nadal's weapons and open up his own opportunities.

 

[Start da Game]

can’t see theim troubling peak rafa on court pc.......he is simply unbeatable there........thiem may take a set if he plays lights out and doesn’t miss much off the backhand but otherwise it’s going to be a straight sets beatdown........

 

[Gary Duane]

For sure. Moon ball it back to Nadal and try force him back and get the ball high on him too. Better than short ball to pounce on. He's gota take that Chang like mentality against lendl. Even try drop shot serve returns and underarm serves with backspin since Nadal stands so far back. Or lunge in for a SABR. Win ugly. You don't need to hold back any punches against Nadal on clay.
Thiems going to have to use any and every trick in the book. In fact I endorse him to use the short underarm serve. Get Nadal thinking instead of auto pilot. Once Nadal starts standing closer to guard the short serve, serve big. Once he reverts to the back court, serve it short. Then watch Nadal mentally implode at something totally legal.

I think SABR or an underarm serve would telegraph desperation. I think Rafa can be rattled on other surfaces. Think of Kyrgios. But not on clay. On clay he knows that he's better than everyone unless he has a bad day, and 5 sets gives him a chance to reset if he has a lapse.

I don't think Thiem has a chance in hell of getting more than a set tomorrow. And if I'm wrong, I'll be VERY happy, because although I'm not as hyped on Thiem as @Meles, he's one of my favorite young players, and I don't want to see him crushed.

My take is that Nadal just turned into a different player in Rome, and he's much strong in this RG than he was in the last one in 2018. 2019 Nadal at RG would have crushed Schwartzman in 3. People forget that Nadal looked incredibly strong early in the 2018 clay season but was running out of gas. His hand was cramping in the final.

And man, I REALLY want to be wrong. I'd like to at least see a competitive match.

 

[Russeljones]

I think a blunt object to the bull's head should do the trick. Failing that, Thiem needs to play the match of his life and Nadal needs to have a slightly off day.

 

[tata]

I think SABR or an underarm serve would telegraph desperation. I think Rafa can be rattled on other surfaces. Think of Kyrgios. But not on clay. On clay he knows that he's better than everyone unless he has a bad day, and 5 sets gives him a chance to reset if he has a lapse.

I don't think Thiem has a chance in hell of getting more than a set tomorrow. And if I'm wrong, I'll be VERY happy, because although I'm not as hyped on Thiem as @Meles, he's one of my favorite young players, and I don't want to see him crushed.

My take is that Nadal just turned into a different player in Rome, and he's much strong in this RG than he was in the last one in 2018. 2019 Nadal at RG would have crushed Schwartzman in 3. People forget that Nadal looked incredibly strong early in the 2018 clay season but was running out of gas. His hand was cramping in the final.

And man, I REALLY want to be wrong. I'd like to at least see a competitive match.

Yeah well I'd say dom is pretty desperate to win the title. To be honest I think the drop serve is the one that will rattle Nadal most given his deep positioning. If he uses it more often rather than a once off I think it just becomes a tactical norm. And Nadal will accept its going to happen and he just has to deal with it.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Yeah well I'd say dom is pretty desperate to win the title. To be honest I think the drop serve is the one that will rattle Nadal most given his deep positioning. If he uses it more often rather than a once off I think it just becomes a tactical norm. And Nadal will accept its going to happen and he just has to deal with it.

Also, the mental part cannot be underestimated: the sheer idea that he might be forced to do something pisses Nadal off (Nadal is actually quite spoiled and has always been, growing up as a privileged kid).

 

[Benben245]

Thiem should pretend it’s best of 3 sets and redline the first in terms of risk taking. If he is able to win the first set the psychological relief will help overcome tired legs when the grind begins. Nadal is always susceptible in the first set,think Fed’s tactic to push Nadal into the corners in the first set in 2006

 

[Dilexson]

Has anyone, ever beat #1 and #2 in back to back days at a slam?

Probably Delpo.
Sunday and Monday.

 

[sbengte]

Has anyone, ever beat #1 and #2 in back to back days at a slam?

While playing 4 days in a row ?

 

[rhoder]

How do you guys think Thiem should play to Nadal’s BH? Nadal’s BH is on fire this RG, he takes the short angled FHs to his BH and rams them crosscourt. The usual tactic of hitting angled crosscourt shots to his BH won’t be working here. Thiem will be in a dilemma if he is forced out wide on the FH side, if he plays DTL Nadal can loop it back to his BH, if he goes angled CC Nadal will crush it with his BH.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

How do you guys think Thiem should play to Nadal’s BH? Nadal’s BH is on fire this RG, he takes the short angled FHs to his BH and rams them crosscourt. The usual tactic of hitting angled crosscourt shots to his BH won’t be working here. Thiem will be in a dilemma if he is forced out wide on the FH side, if he plays DTL Nadal can loop it back to his BH, if he goes angled CC Nadal will crush it with his BH.

Looping to Thiem's BH while standing 5 meters behind the baseline = drop shot fiesta

Tim's FH needs to be on fire though.

 

[rhoder]

Looping to Thiem's BH while standing 5 meters behind the baseline = drop shot fiesta

Tim's FH needs to be on fire though.

Thiem actually has a pretty good moonball BH that he can hit to Nadal’s BH if Nadal tries to moonball his BH. Yeah it needs to be on fire, not exactly the most impressive against Novak yesterday I feel.

 

[NEW_BORN]

Don't drop shot Nadal on a big point.
Don't serve and volley on a big point.
And never hit to Nadal's forehand.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Thiem actually has a pretty good moonball BH that he can hit to Nadal’s BH if Nadal tries to moonball his BH. Yeah it needs to be on fire, not exactly the most impressive against Novak yesterday I feel.

Moonballs will test Nadal's ability to generate his own pace the whole time. If he wasn't that rested I would have been sure that he will tire himself out there, but it is not the case, so .....

 

[Grampa]

Probably Delpo.
Sunday and Monday.

Saturday and Sunday, no?

 

[sbengte]

Don't serve and serve on a big point

Erm...you mean DF on a big point ?

 

[NEW_BORN]

Erm...you mean DF on a big point ?

Haha, nice catch.

 

[toth]

Thiem likes to use his bh slice too.
Could it be used sometimes against Nadal?

 

[rhoder]

Thiem likes to use his bh slice too.
Could it be used sometimes against Nadal?

Yes but not not too frequently. It has to be those knifing ones he produced against Djokovic and even then he should imo only use it occasionally to disrupt Nadal’s rhythm. If he uses it too much, Nadal will step forward and blast those unlike Djokovic who couldn’t do anything much against it. I thought in his win in Barcelona he used floating slices to Nadal’s BH side in defence pretty well to restart the rally too, so he could continue those (but Nadal’s FH has since improved quite a bit so his IO forehand may actually make that tactic less useful)

 

[BorisRogerFan]

Black magic would work, perhaps. Other than that, Thiem has zero chance

 

[travlerajm]

Short crosscourt bh slices work against Djokovic, but not against Nadal.

 

[ChrisRF]

For sure. Moon ball it back to Nadal and try force him back and get the ball high on him too. Better than short ball to pounce on. He's gota take that Chang like mentality against lendl. Even try drop shot serve returns and underarm serves with backspin since Nadal stands so far back. Or lunge in for a SABR. Win ugly. You don't need to hold back any punches against Nadal on clay.
Thiems going to have to use any and every trick in the book. In fact I endorse him to use the short underarm serve. Get Nadal thinking instead of auto pilot. Once Nadal starts standing closer to guard the short serve, serve big. Once he reverts to the back court, serve it short. Then watch Nadal mentally implode at something totally legal.

Nothing is of that is even ugly, but totally legit instead. In contrary, it brings joy into an otherwise boring Nadal routine on clay.

 

[Dilexson]

Saturday and Sunday, no?

Rain.
Finals on Monday.

 

[Pantera]

With the final starting shortly I would like to hear thoughts about Nadal's and Thiem's choice of tactics.

Given the substantial difference in the path to the final I think that there is a good chance that Nadal will try to bog Thiem down with long rallies, applying as much physicality as possible early in the match, but only after he tries to secure the first set with a mix of ultra aggressive play on his own serve, and heavy hitting in Thiem's service games (until he gets a break).

Nadal will try to lure Thiem in going for his IO FH and will wait for him on his FH side for DTL finishes. Hopefully Thiem will not fall for that.

On the BH side Nadal will try to draw Thiem in with slices and pass him CC.

The battle for the mid court will decide if Nadal will work the ultra aggressive tactic or not: if he is not successful to throw Thiem off rhythm with variety of depth he will try to just blow him off the court with his own IO FH and BH DTL.

Recently Thiem has been running around his BH too much for my liking. Nadal will look to expose that.

Thiem's best chance is to dominate mid court and be excellent on the return. Also, he needs to hit deep. If he succeeds in that he has a decent chance. Anything short (pun) of that will be severely punished.

What is your take?

Whoever hits their signature shot best will win. If thiem rips his Bh dtl after dragging Nadal out wide with his beast cross court BH and rafa is conservative and tries to keep hooking is FH cross court which will land short then Thiem wins.

However if Nadal DTL FH is firing and his DTL BH is Thiem is in real trouble as he will be like a ball on a string.

Thiem does not like hitting on the run so Nadal should move him side to side.

Only way this gets close is if Thiems BH fires. It was truly woeful v Djokovic but the wind played a part of course.

 

[chjtennis]

For the tired player, winning 1st set is extremely important. Thiem must win the 1st set.

 

[yokied]

I think Dominic's plan A has to be margin ie the complete reverse of the USO match. I'm not convinced Rafa can go with him all day in a street fight straight up the middle two thirds of the court, especially on the FH. And Thiem telling him that with a conservative plan would help IMHO.

Thiem should just be at 85-90% power on serves and groundstrokes, trying to settle into the match and only thinking winners on the short balls, only thinking drop shots and slices for court position and change ups. Wait until the scoreboard tells you to redline power and placement so you can build up and not feel instant pressure.

Good to see Thiem roughly following the above and steadily grinding and overpowering Rafa in the 2nd set. Thiem calmed down a bit in the second after redlining a bit - and failing - in the first set. And Rafa seems a bit rattled with Thiem's decision to turn this into a street fight and started getting a bit iffy on the FH under pressure late in the 2nd.

I still don't like Thiem running away from the ball so much, staying so far behind the baseline and giving away so much court position to Rafa. There are more balls that he can just get on top of and put back down the middle without worrying about setting up for such big shots.

 

[Meles]

I think SABR or an underarm serve would telegraph desperation. I think Rafa can be rattled on other surfaces. Think of Kyrgios. But not on clay. On clay he knows that he's better than everyone unless he has a bad day, and 5 sets gives him a chance to reset if he has a lapse.

I don't think Thiem has a chance in hell of getting more than a set tomorrow. And if I'm wrong, I'll be VERY happy, because although I'm not as hyped on Thiem as @Meles, he's one of my favorite young players, and I don't want to see him crushed.

My take is that Nadal just turned into a different player in Rome, and he's much strong in this RG than he was in the last one in 2018. 2019 Nadal at RG would have crushed Schwartzman in 3. People forget that Nadal looked incredibly strong early in the 2018 clay season but was running out of gas. His hand was cramping in the final.

And man, I REALLY want to be wrong. I'd like to at least see a competitive match.

If the tables had been turned as far as rest and play, Thiem would have a shot at victory today. All that being said, he'll never had better conditions to beat Nadal ever again, so a shame he got a bit gassed later in the final.

 

[mightyrick]

If the tables had been turned as far as rest and play, Thiem would have a shot at victory today. All that being said, he'll never had better conditions to beat Nadal ever again, so a shame he got a bit gassed later in the final.

Thiem's main problem was mental letdown after breaking Nadal twice. Thiem had the same issues in his prior match against Djokovic. Consolidating the break in tennis is one of the absolutely most important things you can do. Thiem's problem is, and always has been, that he does not maintain his level after he achieves a crucial milestone in a match. Thiem was definitely more expended in this match than Nadal. That is a given. But he simply doesn't hold his level in the important moments. He did the same against Djokovic.

 

[Meles]

Thiem's main problem was mental letdown after breaking Nadal twice. Thiem had the same issues in his prior match against Djokovic. Consolidating the break in tennis is one of the absolutely most important things you can do. Thiem's problem is, and always has been, that he does not maintain his level after he achieves a crucial milestone in a match. Thiem was definitely more expended in this match than Nadal. That is a given. But he simply doesn't hold his level in the important moments. He did the same against Djokovic.

BS. If the tables had been turned Thiem may very well have won RG.

 

[mightyrick]

BS. If the tables had been turned Thiem may very well have won RG.

Thiem is lucky he made it to the final. He should have lost to Djokovic. But Djokovic, for whatever reason, played the worst match I can remember in recent years.