Again, I did not say ironman athletes are bigger, bolder and rougher.
I said they are slim and wiry.
They have no fat champions:
Tennis has the Best Athletes of Any Other Sport
- Thread starter Kirijax
- Start date
Again, I did not say ironman athletes are bigger, bolder and rougher.
I said they are slim and wiry.
They have no fat champions:
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
@Flint,
@Merlinpin,
@Akind
@Bobby Jr.
@courtking
@Martini1
@Insideguy
I'll take the liberty to repost a lengthened version of my post 49 as no one seems to have seen it (or - very unlikely
- you all found it irrelevant)It doesn't get much tougher than Ironman in terms of pure indurance combined with significant strength. But even Iron man athletes suck (relatively speaking) at many other sports, including short distance running.
Reason being, they are endurance athletes and only that (with some strength). Often, their motorik isn't that developed compared to athletes who need to do more precise movements with their body - such as anyone who does anything with a ball or gymnasts or track and field athletes in the technical disciplines.
I would imagine the same goes for crossskiers - they've got the best pulse, heart and lung capacities, but they come in very short at other skills.
Give me a decathlete - they've proven their skill over very different disciplines (shot put is further away from pole vault or 110 hurdles for that matter than badminton is from tennis I would say, having tried all of them), they are strong, fast (they can outsprint more or less everyone in the NFL and def. in pro tennis), they have some endurance (it's not that easy to run 1500 meters in 4.15-30 after completing 9 other disciplines in two days) and they, again, excel, in very different disciplines at the top level.
A gymnast excelling in multiple disciplines come close for me as well.
And an addition:
Basically, a good athlete in my def. of the term needs to be able to translate his world class skill in one sport to very good skills in a lot of other sports.
A Tour de France rider, marathon runner, Iron man athlete, cross country skier etc. fail to meet that criteria as they have tremendous endurance, but to an extent where they completely lack the explosiveness and speed required to succeed in most sports.
A decathlete has that (and some gymnasts excelling in multiple disciplines do too, I would imagine). Being able to sprint 100 meters in 10,5 (some even less), jump around 2 meters high and 8 meters long and still have enough strength to throw a spear 60 meters or a discus 45 meters will help you in any sport save for the pure endurance focused sports. On top of that, you've been able to master some very different disciplines at a very high level - i.e. you've trained your body perfectly to learn new movements and patterns.
If he or she (heptathlete) has been playing different ball sports in their childhood as well (to train that part too), then we come very close to the perfect athlete in my book.
As for tennis players, they're generally pretty good athletes in my book as they have a good mix of hand-eye coordination, speed, endurance and strength - i.e. they've got multiple things going for them. But they're not above or at level with decathlete or gymnasts to my knowledge and imo
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If that's all they learned growing up, they would drown in the sea. So, they fail to swim. If they can swim, I doubt it they could cope with swimming 3.86 km non stop.
They should have decathlon + triathlon sport event.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
sure - throw in a bit of swimming too, when they grow up. Most people I know know how to swim. But I live close to the sea.
But as I said above, Iron Man - or any extreme endurance sport - really doesn't make you a great athlete. It makes you a great endurance athlete, but at the expense of more or less all non-extreme sports, where that type of endurance isn't needed and where the lack of speed and explosiveness (I doubt you'll find many sub-13,5, which isn't fast, iron men on a 100 meter sprint).
p.s. swimming 3,8 or 3,86 km isn't that tough if you know how to swim and are in decent shape. It's tough to do it fast. But even I can do it at a moderate pace.
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kOaMaster
Hall of Fame
@Chanwan: That is a good point and I totally agree with your definition of "good athlete".
There are too things though that puts it all in perspective and makes it even harder to compare - popularity and competition
it is as simple as that - a popular sport just draws more athletes and more people to trying it and therefore the level of competition is a lot higher. I believe there are many many football (I mean soccer here) players that could easily (means: with the appropriat training) compete in other disciplines. they just stick to football because it is a lot more famous and it's far more popular. why would they even consider doing something else in an early stage of childhood/career when everyone else is playing football as well? and if you are good at it, you stay at this sport despite you could've become one of the greatest hammer throwing athlete of your country. the likelyhood of trying out and realising that this sport "fits" better to you falls and raises with the popularity of the sport.
and, not to forget: whether you can afford it and live from.
If I'd be a really prospective guy at a US school and they ask me whether I would want to play basketball or volleyball...well, guess what I'd take.
-> the most popular sports usually draw the best athletes. and since the question was whether "tennis has the best athletes" and not whether "tennis is the hardest of all the sports to learn and play"
that is the reason why I think the answer to this question is "maybe", together with main sports like football and basketball.
There are too things though that puts it all in perspective and makes it even harder to compare - popularity and competition
it is as simple as that - a popular sport just draws more athletes and more people to trying it and therefore the level of competition is a lot higher. I believe there are many many football (I mean soccer here) players that could easily (means: with the appropriat training) compete in other disciplines. they just stick to football because it is a lot more famous and it's far more popular. why would they even consider doing something else in an early stage of childhood/career when everyone else is playing football as well? and if you are good at it, you stay at this sport despite you could've become one of the greatest hammer throwing athlete of your country. the likelyhood of trying out and realising that this sport "fits" better to you falls and raises with the popularity of the sport.
and, not to forget: whether you can afford it and live from.
If I'd be a really prospective guy at a US school and they ask me whether I would want to play basketball or volleyball...well, guess what I'd take.
-> the most popular sports usually draw the best athletes. and since the question was whether "tennis has the best athletes" and not whether "tennis is the hardest of all the sports to learn and play"
that is the reason why I think the answer to this question is "maybe", together with main sports like football and basketball.
Flint
Hall of Fame
I don't know about most sports but I would have thought that Iron man triathalons and Tour De France would be at the top.
Formula 1 is an interesting one. I listened to Martin Brundle for years saying it looks so much faster in real life than on the TV where it looks about 30 mph.
Then I went to the British Grand Prix in 2012 and 2013 and it still looks about 30 mph just like on the TV. Hard to imagine it being that tough, I realise cockpit temps are 50 degrees plus several layers of fireproof overalls though.
When you see the old videos of Mansell trying to push his car over the line and collapsing you realise there must be some truth to it. But having seen it in real life vastly lowered my opnion of how tough it must be on the body.
Formula 1 is an interesting one. I listened to Martin Brundle for years saying it looks so much faster in real life than on the TV where it looks about 30 mph.
Then I went to the British Grand Prix in 2012 and 2013 and it still looks about 30 mph just like on the TV. Hard to imagine it being that tough, I realise cockpit temps are 50 degrees plus several layers of fireproof overalls though.
When you see the old videos of Mansell trying to push his car over the line and collapsing you realise there must be some truth to it. But having seen it in real life vastly lowered my opnion of how tough it must be on the body.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
You make some very good and valid points that I forgot about in mine.
The best 'natural' athletes tend to get drawn to the more popular, accessible and money-making sports, when they're kids.
So yeah - that has some say in it too. How much, I think it's hard to judge.
Cause I still think that you can make the argument that the training required to succeed in decathlon equips you better to succeed in other sports than the training required in football, basketball or tennis. But those three certainly produce great athletes and get them to begin sports in the first place (soccer and basket more given that they are way more accessible).
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
I didn't see it. You make a good point......I'll take the liberty to repost a lengthened version of my post 49 as no one seems to have seen it (or - very unlikely
Then again. I happen to have trained with an Olympic-level decathlete (top 20 in one games) for a number of years in my youth on his middle distance running. While he was a beast at every decathlon discipline his 1500m running was only OK. Anything over about 2.5km I could push him pretty close and anything over about 5km - still an extremely short run really - he was dead in the water compared to me. And I was just some tennis-playing guy who ran a couple of times a week.
Now, decathletes are great athletes but the element of hand-eye coordination is again, pretty low. It's higher than a triathlete without doubt, but of that 1/100th of that required by a tennis player. Their collection of disciplines also requires far less all-round agility (stop/start, side-to-side etc). Their event also takes place over two days with as much as an hour between events so their all-round endurance and duration of events is very, very short and sporadic.
Top tennis players clearly wont be on par with top decathletes in terms of strength or many attributes but they will have vastly more endurance, it isn't even a remotely close comparison. They also have to have far better hand-eye coordination (as well as all-round tactical noise and lasting concentration). You also have to factor in durability - a tennis player competes a lot more than any decathlete ever has to. Regardless of the amount of training done training is not competing - you don't have to bring it all out for training whereas you do when you compete. Top tennis players have to be ready for anything upwards of 65 times a year, a decathlete only 5 or 6 times for two days at a time. It makes a big difference in the long run to what sort of athlete you need to be. They're so vastly different in their requirements a like-for-like comparison is basically impossible.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
F1 is ludicrously fast in real life I agree. The first time you see it you wont believe how fast they accelerate, brake or corner. It doesn't fit what you know about the limits of a car.
Those guys, have amazing reactions and an ability to focus on the task as hand so completely for the 1.5-ish hours the race takes it's hard to imagine.
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
endurance is certainly not their strong suit - it can't be, when they need to be superb in the more explosive disciplines. But I remember reading Federer could run a 10 k in 40 minutes back in 2003. I could see some decathletes doing that and others coming within 5 to max. 10 minutes of it.
Hand-eye, not even close. Body control in general, I would think the decathlete leads though. And the training is literally insane (I've tried), but the competitions are obviously fewer. That doesn't matter though in terms of who's the best pure athlete. And I really can't see which tennis player - past or present - beats the best decathletes in that respect
but yeah - we're comparing apples and oranges
Flint
Hall of Fame
??? Did you read my whole post?
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
I did. I assume you made a typo. I've been to upwards to 15 F1 GPs over the years and have always thought it looks insanely faster than on TV, especially when they come out of corners. I guess it depends where you sit.
objectivity
Banned
yes but the average MLB pro baseball player misses just about 4 out of 5 pitches every time. its not as if they manage to hit every single pitch you know?
objectivity
Banned
good post. and jason goodall says it as things are really in reality: federer = serve + forehand. that's all. he isn't some fabled all court, serve and volley chimeric combination of mcenroe and borg that his deluded fans like to make him out to be.
While a sport may boast that they have better ****** than tennis athletes do, and then another sport says the same thing about another area, I can't come away from the belief that tennis requires the whole package of an athlete to succeed. Missing one of the main strengths and you can't succeed in tennis.
Yes you can. Isner and Karlovic are perfect examples of not great athletes who have made millions playing pro tennis.
Tennis players do have weaknesses and they overcome it by strengthening their strengths.
Bartoli might not be the best mover out there but she strengthen her powerful groundstrokes and serves. She doesn't have the quick movement but she can still win Wimbledon because of her power play.
Tomic doesn't move quickly around the court but he could win a title and reached wimbledon quarterfinal.
Quick movement is one of the main strengths required in tennis, but Bartoli and Tomic can win titles without having to be a quick mover.
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Very good point.
Not very good point. Isner and karlovic would have made top basketball players no problem. They would look a little more muscular. They are incredible athletes in terms of coordination.
I don't think they move well at all.
If they didnt have the serve they have neither one would be in the top 100.
Because you compare them to other smaller players who look much more agile. I think they move just as well as other centers in basketball. It's well known isner was a super basketball player and could have gone either way.
You think all tall players serve well? Serving skill requires very high level of coordination. Their agility is limited by their high center of gravity. But they successfully make it up with other parts of the game. Holding serve at such high rate even against the best, possibly ever, returners of the game takes extraordinary level of serving skill in terms of control and consistency.
Umm name me a tall player who doesnt serve well. Look dude I like Isner and Karlovic. They are good players. But they would not be anywhere close to the top 100 if they just had and average serve. Neither can hang in rallies with any consistency. You take 15 mph off their serves and both are playing in the juniors. But thats ok because tennis is like most other sports. Geroge Foreman was not as good of an athlete as Ali. But he had a chance to knock him out. Thats what makes things exciting. In order to be successful you have to maximize your talents and minimize your faults. They have maximized their serves and since the serve is important in tennis it helps them win matches.
There are a lot of ifs in sport. What if Larry Bird didn't have a jumpshot? What if Nadal didn't have his lethal forehand? What if Usain Bolt was only 5'11"? The fact is they do have those weapons,so might as well use them to their advantage
Oh I agree. No argument from me.
Jeter debuted at 21 and won the ROY at 22. He logged 2000 ABs in the minors before debuting. Arod was on PEDs going back to high school so he's out of the equation. I'd put Cano in that camp as well as he has all the classic identifiers of a PED user, even without his alleged ties to Biogenesis. Soriano was mediocre until he turned 26. Quite frankly even when he was 'good' ie a 30 HR guy, he was one dimensional. Allergic to walks and working counts, terrible with the glove. Came up as a SS, moved to 2B where was historically terrible, moved to LF where he looked like he was running routes on roller skates. He did eventually become a pretty accurate thrower from LF as a Cub, however. Regardless, Soriano was so awkward in the field, and devoid of plate discipline along with a litany of holes in his swing that he had to begin his pro career in Japan because no one bothered to sign him as an INTL FA.
But yes it's true some elite level players peak at a young age - Trout, Kershaw, Griffey Jr etc. They aren't the norm, however. And even still, Trout spent 3 & 1/2 years in the minors before becoming an MLB regular. Even players that go the college route rarely go straight from college to the majors. Those that move quickly through the minors are generally pitchers, especially relievers. Or at times starters with strong command. What he's referring to are guys jumping right from high school to MLB.
And yes, that doesn't mean that baseball players are the most athletic. Some are among the greatest athletes (Trout at 6'2 230 lbs with that speed, arm strength, and hand eye is unquestionably in the conversation), and I don't care about any of this greatest athletes/sport stuff, but I will maintain that baseball players play the most difficult sport to succeed at. Fail 70% of the time and you're one of the best players in the game, as the saying goes. The majority of things that are athletic in baseball won't even be recognized by most of the folks posting in this thread. A pitcher repeating one's delivery 100+ times per game is crazy athletic. Even if fat guys like Bartolo Colon are able to pull it off. Keeping one's swing mechanically sound is also crazy athletic. It's not just hand eye coordination.
Finally, I think you're vastly underestimating the physical toll of playing 162 regular season games + 25-30 spring training games + post-season games when applicable. Just because there seemingly isn't a ton of running involved around the ball, doesn't mean that their bodies aren't being taxed. Outfielders and infielders are always running/moving to put themselves in backup positions. It's wildly unnatural for human physiology to throw overhand, you know. Rotater cuffs and shoulder capsules weren't designed to throw 5 mph let alone 90+. And we're talking about 25K-30K pitches thrown from top starters per year in the regular season alone. How many wrist/oblique/shoulder/back injuries do see from hitters as the simple result of torque from a swing? A: A lot.
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Thanks you did a great job trying to explain this stuff. Much better than I did. But I do understand why alot of europeans or people not familiar with baseball wonder what the big deal is. Its not an easy sport to translate.
unfortunately, I suspect a lot of them are actually American. At least judging by the spelling and conversational hallmarks. And to those people I'd recommend...well finding someone who actually understands baseball to breakdown tape of a guy like Justin Smoak. Can't miss prospect. Analyze his swing and you'll see it's never in proportion. The top half of his body is always firing before the lower half. Thus the lift in his swing is always fluctuating. And you've seen the end result. Bordering on the dreaded AAAA tag.
HRB
Hall of Fame
So...in a sport where 90% of the players fall between 6'2" and 6'8" and lean, you choose to focus on 3-4 absolute freaks of nature...and Shaq was an enormous freak, and STILL had more athleticism than many athletes half his size...way to prove a point!
F1..laughable...you pick a sport where first off you exclude just about anyone over 5'10 and 170lbs, and you eliminate 99% of the pool for socioeconomic reasons. I would have gave you the 70's and 80's F1...but now more than ever...put a fit kid in a great car and champion...75% the car!
The sport has become a boring parade with 90% of the "Passes" coming in the pits..YAWN!
objectivity
Banned
my point is that MLB "pros" are doing "badly" in hitting the baseball pitch anyway -- what makes you think the tennis pro can't do just as badly as them?
i read before that andre agassi used to go to a baseball cage and hit the balls running towards the machine.
HRB
Hall of Fame
Wow..great PHYSIOLOGY STATS...Dated a top level XC-Skier Bro...let me tell you something, if you picked her for any recreational sport to be on your team (volleyball, hoop, softball, even tennis) you'd be very ****ed...biggest klutz with no skills I've ever met!!!
In great shape..OF COURSE....that just met she could SUCK AT OTHER SPORTS LONGER AND HARDER THAN ANYONE!!!! LOL..NO ONE SAID FITTEST...they said ATHLETES!!!
I have no idea if tennis pros could hit like a MLB player if they had years of practice and grew up playing baseball. But no tennis pro could hit anything off a MLB pitcher because they dont have any training to do it. They would look like clowns. The same way the MLB player would look trying to play an ATP player in tennis.
All sports exclude people in one way or another. For example there might be the most talented tennis player in history in central africa but he has never heard of tennis. But formula #1? Good lord some one said it excludes 99 percent of people on earth because of socioeconomic reasons. I would argue it excludes 99.99999999.999 percent of people for that reason.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
I think you misunderstood my point. Within F1 the car is 90% of the success factor. The exact number is unknown but this is a number that has been touted around by commentators for ages.
The percentage you give could be applied to any sport in reality. If someone never plays a sport their aptitude for it could never really be know at all - separate from their ability to dedicate themselves, being in the right place at the right time, having the right sort of support etc etc etc. Basically, the point is so obvious it's not even worth mentioning.
Yea I understood I was just sort of expanding on the nature of car racing. For a sport like formula #1 how many people actually get into a circuit to attempt to become car drivers? I cant believe its that many. Who has the chance to even try? Yea tennis or baseball or football or whatever excludes large populations but not anywhere near something like F-1 racing. You have a better chance of being a leader of a country than you do an F-1 racer.
chatt_town
Hall of Fame
No...Tennis isn't and that's part of the reason you have the so called big 3 or 4. The rest have no shot...well Warinka pulled one out and so did Delpo...but since 2003 or 2004...most have been won by the same 4 guys and that's why I say the sport as a whole is lacking in athleticism. No one can hang with those guys for 5 sets.
Americans love the BIG PLAY. Hail Mary touchdowns 3-pointers at the buzzer, grand slam homers in the bottom of the ninth, shoot-outs, etc. These plays are dramatized to the point of exhaustion in the American media. The athletes who pull off these grand shows are going to be thought of as the greater athletes.
skiracer55
Hall of Fame
Try ski racing...
...very complex, requires great athletes, requires incredible mental strength...as in, you have two minutes or less, at 70 mph, to get everything right if you want to win a World Cup downhill. And if you screw up, it ain't like tennis, where if you double fault, you lose a point and move on. In ski racing, if you screw up, you're likely to get a fast helicopter flight to the nearest ER...
...very complex, requires great athletes, requires incredible mental strength...as in, you have two minutes or less, at 70 mph, to get everything right if you want to win a World Cup downhill. And if you screw up, it ain't like tennis, where if you double fault, you lose a point and move on. In ski racing, if you screw up, you're likely to get a fast helicopter flight to the nearest ER...
mcenroefan
Hall of Fame
Tennis does not have the best athletes. There are at least several sports that have greater athletes than tennis.
As of late, tennis has become more of an endurance test, but tennis, even in that venue, pales to some other endurance tests.
Put simply, there are athletes in other sports that are stronger, quicker and faster than tennis players.
As of late, tennis has become more of an endurance test, but tennis, even in that venue, pales to some other endurance tests.
Put simply, there are athletes in other sports that are stronger, quicker and faster than tennis players.
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Not saying baseball players are good athletes but some of you dismiss hitting a baseball. I hate the sport too but I see an ignorant bias against any thing from the US from many posters.
Hitting a baseball has long been acknowledged for being one of the hardest things to do in sports. Where does it rank next to things such as jai alai or cricket as examples, I have no idea.
Imagine standing in as a lefty batter against 6'11" 100+ mph throwing left Randy Johnson who's throwing the ball at your ear and hoping that it's a curveball and not a wild pitch while it is traveling at 90 miles per hour at your head. Swing? Duck? Cry?
Hitting a baseball has long been acknowledged for being one of the hardest things to do in sports. Where does it rank next to things such as jai alai or cricket as examples, I have no idea.
Imagine standing in as a lefty batter against 6'11" 100+ mph throwing left Randy Johnson who's throwing the ball at your ear and hoping that it's a curveball and not a wild pitch while it is traveling at 90 miles per hour at your head. Swing? Duck? Cry?
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Dude you are on crack.
Aint no way in hell that Trout is among the best athletes in the world in as a baseball player.
Does it take tremendous skill to play baseball? Absolutely!
Does Trout have strength? Yes
Hand eye? Yes
Speed, in short bursts, sure.
Endurance? Hell no.
And yes I get it, 162 game schedule yadda yadda.
But you act like a baseball game is constant action from start to finish. Maybe for the pitchers and catchers but hardly for anyone else.
Is mike trout a good athlete blessed with tremendous hand eye coordination and skill? Yes.
But Id still put an F1 driver and for that matter, the worst horse jockey ahead of him. Horse jockeys and F1 drivers have to have great reflexes, tremendous strength in the arms and core to control the car(horse), and in the case of F1 drivers, endure huge G forces on their necks and shoulders as they turn and corner. And both horse jockeys and F1 drivers need the stamina of an Olympic marathoner or triathelete to withstand the rigors of a race, and in the case of F1 drivers, a race where they will lose body fluids to the point where the average person would pass out or be completely delirious. And all the while, the F1 driver and horse jockey as their body is physically punished, have to remain alert enough mentally to make split second decisions given the conditions of their vehicle(horse), the course, and surrounding competition. I give the nod to F1 drivers over jockeys because the average horse race is a few laps around while the average F1 race is like 60-70 laps in usually extreme temperatures(on the track and in the car itself). I doubt many if any baseball players even at the pro level have a resting heartbeat below 50, much less below 40 which is commong for F1 drivers.
Again to make my point, an F1 driver competed in an Olympic regulation triathelete event and finsished 35 minutes off of the Olympic record. And thats not even this dude's main profession! How you can proclaim a baseball player as an elite athlete is absurd or rather, born of just plain ignorance.
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SLD76
G.O.A.T.
As I said, you are ignorant.
Clearly anyone who thinks baseball is the epitome of athletic prowess doesnt know what the hell they are talking about.
Where did I say that? Clearly anyone who thinks a a guy who drives a car or rides a horse is the epitome of athletic prowess likes cars and horses. To compare people who rely on a horse or a car to people who actually play sports is just silly. You put the best driver in a crap car and he comes in last. The same with a horse. I never said baseball was the epitome of athletic talent, never said any such thing. But your eurocentric bias is hilarious considering most of you guys throw like girls and dont use your arms for anything.
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