Tennis needs to split into fencing style disciplines...

penguin

Professional
...while Roger is still at peak "what will he do next?"

The racquet companies could sell a lot more frames if the sport split into standards, mids and open, with open being the present gear.

I love to watch high level play with the current equipment- it's great and should be appreciated. But it is just a fact now that pro players cannot play with a headsize of 90, nobody can afford the handicap. It is also true that some body types are at a disadvantage when playing pro tennis compared to the past- there are some great shorter players but nobody the height of Laver can get to number 1, and probably there are players of who don't make the top 100 despite having equal talent to taller players that did. It's also noticeable that the only players still using 93 head size are tall- suggesting that a near-mid is more effective for a taller player. There is depth of talent of well trained players - enough that if there was a chance for a top 20 to make money playing in these other disciplines, some good ones would switch. The key to work towards would be to get them added to the Olympics. The progress of technology was such that the veins of compellingly watchable sport of people playing with wood racquets and with mids are far from exhausted. The amateur game may be more enjoyable played with mids or standards (as long as nobody walks on with a modern racquet they know how to use). In the pro game poly in combination with standards and mids was never/incompletely explored. I would also argue that, in particular, the women's game and doubles were better to watch before poly strings than now, even though the field may be deeper now.
Finally, juniors having tournaments to play in to develop these different games could help them develop better.

Roger Federer has the star power that he could make this happen, and the credibility having played with a mid himself. McEnroe has always wanted wood to come back, he would be on board. Fencing is a tiny sport in comparison to tennis- if it can manage three disciplines with pros specializing, then tennis surely can.
 

penguin

Professional
The old styles that can't compete against new equipment have potential economic value which is unexploited. Tennis had the biggest jump in popularity in the wood era. Fencing contains three sports based on different equipment. I suggest tennis could do the same. Does that help you?
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
As it is, if you go to a pro tennis tournament the vast majority of fans are seniors with very few young fans. What demographic will go to watch wood-only tournaments? The over-80 age group? How old is the OP?
 

penguin

Professional
As it is, if you go to a pro tennis tournament the vast majority of fans are seniors with very few young fans. What demographic will go to watch wood-only tournaments? The over-80 age group? How old is the OP?
Ever heard of creating new fans?
 

heavyD

Semi-Pro
A lower level tour isn't going to get any traction and I certainly don't see any money in it for anyone. The reason the WTA draws less fans than the ATP is that the average sports fan is drawn to see the very best compete and WTA is merely the best female players. Nobody is going to pay any money of consequence to see a bunch of 5.0 players compete with wood racquets. The XFL and USFL will absolutely fail but are both 100% more sound than your idea.
 

Hawks9451

Semi-Pro
Roger Federer is the ATP #1 presently, so I see where you're coming from there. It also makes sense to put more rules into tennis since the fans will both understand and enjoy things having to do with racquet headsize. It's all so straightforward when you explain it in terms of fencing, a sport everyone is familiar with.
 

penguin

Professional
A lower level tour isn't going to get any traction and I certainly don't see any money in it for anyone. The reason the WTA draws less fans than the ATP is that the average sports fan is drawn to see the very best compete and WTA is merely the best female players. Nobody is going to pay any money of consequence to see a bunch of 5.0 players compete with wood racquets. The XFL and USFL will absolutely fail but are both 100% more sound than your idea.
It won't necessarily be lower level- players with non-optimal heights for current tennis might moonlight for the advantage and fun, and as part of building a brand image that will make them more sponsorship money than they could make as another ATP player that isn't fedalovic. I could see Dan Evans being unbeatable with standard size.
 

FlaredButt

New User
Roger Federer is the ATP #1 presently, so I see where you're coming from there. It also makes sense to put more rules into tennis since the fans will both understand and enjoy things having to do with racquet headsize. It's all so straightforward when you explain it in terms of fencing, a sport everyone is familiar with.
hahahahah @penguin you need to get your sword out this is too brutal
 

FlaredButt

New User
i have rule with buddies where if you get aced or lose a point in which your opponent hits a tweener you have to use a wooden racket on the next point.

i think goofing around in rec play is the extent of the usefulness for the older equipment in tennis
 

penguin

Professional
hahahahah @penguin you need to get your sword out this is too brutal
Not really. No player would have time for alternative projects while they were number one in the world because they would be busy playing. Federer is at the peak profile+time combination. And I can't help if people don't know stuff that is pretty basic knowledge and lack curiosity. I think my idea is much less stupid than pouring money into pickleball.
 

penguin

Professional
i have rule with buddies where if you get aced or lose a point in which your opponent hits a tweener you have to use a wooden racket on the next point.

i think goofing around in rec play is the extent of the usefulness for the older equipment in tennis
Your rule doesn't sound fun- "hey you're doing badly, have an additional handicap!"

There is already some popularity for small-headed training racquets so I think you're not quite right about that
 

FlaredButt

New User
Not really. No player would have time for alternative projects while they were number one in the world because they would be busy playing. Federer is at the peak profile+time combination. And I can't help if people don't know stuff that is pretty basic knowledge and lack curiosity. I think my idea is much less stupid than pouring money into pickleball.
hahahaha that’s all you had to say!! Couldn’t agree more im with you now. pickleball, what a joke.
 

KungfuTennis

Semi-Pro
The old styles that can't compete against new equipment have potential economic value which is unexploited. Tennis had the biggest jump in popularity in the wood era. Fencing contains three sports based on different equipment. I suggest tennis could do the same. Does that help you?
I don't think that market is big enough to exploit, far too niche.

Also tennis having the biggest jump in the wood era isn't really related to the racket, its just that that's how tennis started, of course it's gonna jump in popularity its popularity was 0 before wood rackets.
 

penguin

Professional
I don't think that market is big enough to exploit, far too niche.

Also tennis having the biggest jump in the wood era isn't really related to the racket, its just that that's how tennis started, of course it's gonna jump in popularity its popularity was 0 before wood rackets.
Recreational wood tennis is less athletic. Still exercise but moved in the direction of a bar game from current tennis. Clearly there is a demand for that.

And the jump in popularity was not that long after modern pressurised balls were adopted. This combination of word racquets with modern balls only existed for twenty years or so, and the jump in that time could suggest it is a good one.

The reason that wood racquets are unpopular now is that without having a "play category" people will either get smacked around by graphite racquets or come across as sledging the opponent by using one. Solve that problem and you can sell more gear, make more money. New standard sized racquets wouldn't necessarily need to be made of wood- I am not sure if graphite is as clearly a playability advantage over wood in standard head racquets as it is in larger ones.
 

A_Instead

Legend
It does seem like past presents opportunity...the beauty of niche...
It is nice to go down memory lane.. yet when you do, it makes modern day things even nicer..
My recent experience of looking back has been nice.. I bought the new Vcore 95..
Not sure how long the bliss will last.. but it certainly shows how much my 100 inch rackets make tennis more efficient..
 

FlaredButt

New User
what do you all think would it take to convince a decent contingent of the tennis playing community to play with older technology? significant price advantage over todays rackets? the right celebrity endorsement?
 

1HBHfanatic

Legend
what do you all think would it take to convince a decent contingent of the tennis playing community to play with older technology? significant price advantage over todays rackets? the right celebrity endorsement?
-money, or rather free to very low price of attendance
-boobs, hot chicks calling the lines, towel/ball girls and/or umpiring
-but most of all, a very modified abbreviated set (both sides start at 30all in every game!!),
-otherwise people will loose interest and head on over to the pickleball courts!!

-nobody is playing with wood racquets anymore
-the #1 complaint i got when hosting a wood social, "when can i switch to my normal racquet?", this was a couple hours into the social event!!
-most people (90%) hate the idea of playing with an old, small head size racquet
-the other 10% only enjoyed it for the nostalgia of things, but soon tire out

-the new generation is all about speed, power, excitement
-long gone are the days of slow, slicing rallys
-thats why pickleball has taken off, its got both speed and excitement, like a knife fight
-tennis is all about big spin and power
 

penguin

Professional
what do you all think would it take to convince a decent contingent of the tennis playing community to play with older technology? significant price advantage over todays rackets? the right celebrity endorsement?
I think a set of codified rules for what is allowed is needed so it is consistent. Then, yes, it needs endorsement from top players and also showing what the different possibilities are. If you could have a scene in a popular movie where aspirational characters played it that could be helpful.
Also that there would be a new element to it: Focus on the headsize rather than the material so it is a new thing rather than just nostalgia. In the standard category you could specify a stiffness limit so woodies remain viable at high levels, while retaining the convenience of graphite racquets not warping etc.

If you look at skateboarding there are different categories of board which each have their own following- the interest isn't when they were invented. Already pro tennis players try to raise their profile by hitting trick shots in matches. A slowed down game could afford more opportunities for ball strikers with modern athleticism to do that. If matches in these categories generated more watchable play they could get some popularity. I think in particular the women's game and doubles could benefit: for example Martina Hingis is not old and is in good shape, she was retired by equipment making her playstyle obsolete not by injury or reduced ability and was well known to be able to play with anything. Players like her could be glad to get involved. I do think that playing with a standard head could allow Federer to nurse his body into playing more easily, without having to be worried about young guns blasting tweener poly bombs at him.


@1HBHfanatic comments that slower tennis is boring to people, but I disagree. It may well be boring to people who like current tennis for its speed, but cricket is a very slow sport (as is baseball) and is enormously popular in some parts of the world. Golf is even slower. What appeals to some deters others- why not have different options for different people.
 

slipgrip93

Professional
This interesting thread makes me wonder if Sampras had kept going on and played up to and past 35 (like Laver and Conners did) , and still used his ps85, how would he have fared vs. Nadal with his babolat frame in 2005 or 2006 in like a grass court match. Or if he could have at least 'upgraded' to something similar to his 2008-9 sig kps88 racquet and maybe tried poly too by then also.

Back in 2015, I tried the tw ps85 reissue with some babolat hurricane poly. It was still too hard for me to be any consistent with it (as a 2.5-3.0), and I hadn't grown up playing with wood and the small/'standard' headsizes back then. I had since moved on to the kps88 and the ps95 blx in recent years.
 

FlaredButt

New User
-money, or rather free to very low price of attendance
-boobs, hot chicks calling the lines, towel/ball girls and/or umpiring
-but most of all, a very modified abbreviated set (both sides start at 30all in every game!!),
-otherwise people will loose interest and head on over to the pickleball courts!!

-nobody is playing with wood racquets anymore
-the #1 complaint i got when hosting a wood social, "when can i switch to my normal racquet?", this was a couple hours into the social event!!
-most people (90%) hate the idea of playing with an old, small head size racquet
-the other 10% only enjoyed it for the nostalgia of things, but soon tire out

-the new generation is all about speed, power, excitement
-long gone are the days of slow, slicing rallys
-thats why pickleball has taken off, its got both speed and excitement, like a knife fight
-tennis is all about big spin and power
i’m all in for suggestion #2
( Y )
 

penguin

Professional
If there was such a market..it would exist.. any opportunity to make money by a stakeholder would be explored and then collaborated by other stakeholders then executed..
The coalescing of modern tennis around a narrow range of headsize is only around ten years old. In the runup to that it was never certain that that would in fact happen. The first discipline has created itself, and is now clearly delineated.

Pickleball was around since the 1960's before the tennis boom happened. Only with big investments has it recently become a "thing" (regrettably, i think it is inferior to padel and the antisocial ball noise should have at least been fixed first).

Longboarding was popular at the beginning of skateboarding, disappeared, then decades later became very popular again and it seems to have longevity.

Vinyl records were obsolete and being made in tiny numbers. Now they are a bigger source of income than streaming. With your argument that would never have happened because if that big source of income was available it would have immediately been a big business. No. Clearly there was a period where it was sitting on the table but the music business wasn't reaching out and taking it.

I am saying there is money to be made because of different circumstances than before. Stakeholders might not always see opportunities. There already seems to been a shift to pleasing enthusiasts with racquet designs. This would be a natural further extension of that.
 

Fairhit

Hall of Fame
What if we start playing futbol (soccer) with those 5 pounds leather balls? Or bicycle races with iron bicycles, what about putting a wicker basquet with some guy on a stair grabbing the ball after someone scores in basketball? Let's box without gloves!
 

SupahMan5000

Hall of Fame
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penguin

Professional
What if we start playing futbol (soccer) with those 5 pounds leather balls? Or bicycle races with iron bicycles, what about putting a wicker basquet with some guy on a stair grabbing the ball after someone scores in basketball? Let's box without gloves!
The first three examples are not comparable because:

5 pound leather balls cause serious head injury to footballers, iron bicycles do not change the tactics and I already said to allow modern materials, the guy collecting the ball was immaterial to the score.

Bare knuckle boxing is a thing, on the other hand, and has advantages over normal boxing rules in preventing concussion because striking a head too much/hard with a bare hand just breaks the hand. It is a niche sport which is growing in popularity and makes some money. One commercialisation disadvantage is that it sells marginally less gear by taking gloves out of the equation- a problem the idea of this thread does not have. People (pay to) watch it.
 

Fairhit

Hall of Fame
They have penny farthing races here and there haha. They even have folding bike races

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/routes-and-rides/sweden-3-day-penny-farthing-race/
The first three examples are not comparable because:

5 pound leather balls cause serious head injury to footballers, iron bicycles do not change the tactics and I already said to allow modern materials, the guy collecting the ball was immaterial to the score.

Bare knuckle boxing is a thing, on the other hand, and has advantages over normal boxing rules in preventing concussion because striking a head too much/hard with a bare hand just breaks the hand. It is a niche sport which is growing in popularity and makes some money. One commercialisation disadvantage is that it sells marginally less gear by taking gloves out of the equation- a problem the idea of this thread does not have. People (pay to) watch it.
OK ok, bad joke. I'm sorry, I'm gonna write each of you a letter and send it by pigeon...
 

Crocodile

G.O.A.T.
I think what needs to happen if you want more people playing and more tennis racquets sold is to localise the game more. What I mean about this:
1. More smaller high quality tennis centres built( say 6 courts ) in each neighbourhood that encompasses the electronic line call system, proper high quality club house with a manager that organisers a cafe, entertainment, head coach ( to run his/her business). You want it to a place where the community see the facility as their second home.
2. Tennis entrepreneurs to investigate more injury resistant surfaces so players of all health status can play. Imagine if tennis became known as the sport where your body was protected and improved by playing.
3. Continue to innovate racquets, balks and shoes that prevent injury
4. Organise event scheduling and game structure that prevent burnout injury’s
5.Assign an ATP, WTA or ITF vets player to a region and give them an opportunity to interact with their local tennis community.
 
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