The Better They Are, The Less They Poach

[Cindysphinx]

OK, so I'm getting the lay of the land at 3.5. And I'm starting to notice something:

3.5 women don't poach (defined as moving to take a ball that was directed to the deep person). Hardly at all. They are very conservative about taking a ball unless it comes right to them or is a pop-up/wounded duck. In fact, I'm getting a strong vibe that the fastest way to cheese off your partner is to miss on a poach.

What's my evidence?

The number of planned poaches I have seen at 3.5 in 2008 stands at zero, IIRC.

One of my players who is agile and fast got the distinct impression during a recent loss that her partner was unhappy when she missed a poach. They won't be partnering together in the future.

I have been cautioned more than once by 3.5 partners that I shouldn't take a ball at the net unless I am sure I can put it away. I dunno; can't a decent poach pressure the opponents, even if it is not an immediate winner? Doesn't the threat of a poach increase the errors by the opponents?

This year, I have played against only one 3.5 player who was aggressive at the net. She almost beat us, but her partner was so incredibly weak that we won with a determined game of keep-away. Every other 3.5 player I have played waits patiently at net for a ball they can put away. These women win a lot more than I do; maybe they are on to something?

Now, when I'm serving, I get a little frustrated if my partner doesn't take balls she could reach. I do need some help to hold, and it is hard for me to make opponents miss with the ferocity of my groundstrokes alone. But (thinking of one partner in particular) I get even more frustrated when partners make only a half-hearted attempt at the poach, botching the volley through lack of confidence/intensity (read: flat-footed whack-a-mole). Maybe that is what my partners are seeing with my failed poaches?

Instead of poaching, the modus operandi for net play at 3.5 seems to be for the deep player to work her way in (for the minority of players who aren't happier at the baseline). How well this works depends on how good the deep player is at working her way in.

Anyone else notice this at 3.5? Does this conservative poaching philosophy continue into the higher levels?

Are 3.5 men different in this regard? When I play mixed with my 3.5, 6 feet 6 inch partner, he poaches his head off and I love it. He's the only 3.5 guy I've played with who poaches a lot, though.

 

[zebano]

I'm 3.5 and I try to poach, but I'm not very good at it, so it depends on the caliber of my partner. The better he is, the less I poach. I do agree that they put pressure on the opponent, even if you don't put it away. It's important that you communicate poaches in advance though so your partner doesn't try to serve & volley.

 

[JRstriker12]

Only had one offical 3.5 match so I can't say for sure for the guys. As for my self, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to poaching. I like to poach early in the match to get the other team thinking and to set up my fake/poach of the return.

It also depends on how good the other guy is. If he's hitting bullets that go down the line and land in the corner, I'm not poaching too much.

Last match, my partner wasn't the quickest, so I didn't poach unless I knew I could get to it - I often endded up running back on covering most of the lobs.

As for the other guys I play socially with, most are about 3.5 or higher, it's a matter of style. One guy I know is suprer quick and he poaches all the time. The other guys are not always so agressive on the poach.

 

[CGMemphis]

There are some real pet-peeves of mine at this level of 3.5 doubles, I see it constantly. Things that makes decent doubles teams great; talking together between points is almost non-existent, thats the time to devise your plan for your next point, where you want to serve, what the net guy is going to do, etc. To much pride and ego I have seen and the "you do what you do, Ill do what I do attitude" or some people think thats weak to do such. Whatever, you lose more than you win dont you?

The better they are, the less they poach? I understand playing high percentage tennis, but you will never become the best doubles team, never, ever, with that attitude. Good doubles teams poach. I dare you to find winning teams that dont.

A few more pet-peeves is the forehand takes the middle, no switching on overheads, no attempt to poach!, scared cats at the net.

Cindy, I have read a ton of your posts and you seem to either be venting or seeking advice, so my advice? Play with someone who wants to win and checks their ego at the door.

The pro's dont chat between points because its fashionable, its a winning attitude and honestly the best way to form a game plan in the edgy game of doubles.

 

[Fedace]

As far as women goes, they do NOT start to poach aggressively til they are about 4.5 level. They usually stand like statue and put up a "Please don't hit to me sign". So Cindy, what do you do when your partner refuses to cut off the middle balls. Just tell them to stand more toward the MIDDLE and tell her, you will have easy cut off volley if you just take 1 step forward, up and diagonally. and tell her, You will not blame her if they rip a clean pass up the line her alley. so your job would be to hit a pretty good penetrating serve up the middle 90% of the time to set up your partner.

 

[Nellie]

I agreee with CGMemphis above -It seems like your team has gotten serious enough about their tennis, well, to be serious. However, it seems that they did not improve their games to match the seriousness. IF you don't poach or if you disparage yuor partners for poaching, I would think that you would be trapped at 3.5 forever. I have watched 4.5 womens doubles matches, and they move a lot to be agressive at the net. I get a feeling that you play with a group of players afraid to lose, so that they do not play to win.

Sometimes, the importance of a poach is not that you win the shot, but on the next 30 serves by your partner, the returner shanks the return because she is looking up to see where you are moving.

 

[Fedace]

I actually had similar situ last week in a what is called mixed ratings league. I was just subbing but they put me in with weak 3.5 guy since i am a strong 4.5-good 5.0 player. We played against mixed team of 4.0 and 4.5 guys. Now i had this partner that refused to cut off all those easy floater that is shoulder high up the middle. I have a effective Kick serve so these weakling 4.0 and 4.5 guys were just popping up most of their returns up the middle. So i told him just stand 2 step more to the middle then you will have easy putaways all day long. I also told him, if i hit my Kick serve wide, this guy cannot hit it up the line, my serve is too good, they cannot control the return up the line, so don't worry about down the line returns.

 

[Loco4Tennis]

i would agree with the last couple of posters, poaches at the higher levels are best done when cordinated ahead of time, the reaction time is much smaller with the higher speeds of return and ralleys, i would also agree that their are people who are very quick and tend to poach a lot more than others, knowing what kind of person you are partnered with should determine the way you aproach the game
i am now experimenting with cordinated poaches and different formations, but these i have to cordinate with doubles partner because he is the type of person that gets pissed when a single point is missed, but he also understands about varrying formation and tactics
one thing i have also been doing recenttly is going back to the partner after everypoint to ask plan of attcak or give a highfive, point won or lost, gets you more into everypoint as a team

 

[SlapShot]

When I play mixed, it's a chore to get the women to poach. I've had one partner that did poach, and we won our match handily because of our aggresiveness and ability to take time away from the opponent.

You can't be afraid to miss - even the pros miss balls from time to time, but putting that doubt in their mind will make the returner think about where they want to place their return, which at the 3.5 level can force some seriously ugly returns.

 

[oldhacker]

If you are talking planned poaches (ie those which are called before the serve is hit with the server crossing to the other side of the court as he comes in behind his serve and the net man flying across to try to volley the return) I doubt you will see them much until higher levels. Reasons being:

1. Serve needs to be well placed (invariably down the middle) which players at lower levels struggle to execute consistantly.

2. The server has to cross the court on his approach to the net. Most servers at lower levels have not got the hang of serve and volleying yet - let alone coming in cross court. It takes quite some practice to get the hang of. When our coach gets us to practice the move it is amazing how many servers completely forget to cross and so leave a great big gaping space for the opposition to play with.

More common at lower levels are 'unplanned' poaches. This is where the net man on the servers side goes across solo when he sees a decent serve go down the middle. Can be a recipe for disaster (or a collission) if the server is serve and volleying. Having said that atheletic net players with good volleys can often get away with unplaaned poaches at lower levels - especially when they spot a returner with a weak wing.

 

[WBF]

I think it's a bit of a parabola. When you first start playing, you might be more aggressive and go for a good number of balls that you shouldn't go for. As you progress, you begin to realize that you will miss some of these, and ease up. As you get even better, you realize that you can now hit some of these, etc. In the doubles I play, as the quality of teams improves, the likelihood of them being aggressive at the net improves dramatically, to the point where the best teams we play nearly universally change things up every point (using I-formation nearly every time, sprinkling in standard and australian).

 

[Tarboro]

As oldhacker says above, planned poaches are difficult at the recreational level because of the difficulty of placing a serve appropriately and consistently and serving and volleying effectively. The only thing more uncommon than seeing either of those skills at 3.5 is seeing both at once.

Unplanned poaches are at the discretion of the net player, and the net player's willingness to poach has everything to do with their perception of the returner's skill, the frequency that the returner has burned them DTL, and their innate confidence in their volleys. The best predictor of the net player's confidence, in my experience, is how close they're willing to stand to the net without prompting from anyone. If they hang out halfway between the service line and the net, they're probably uncomfortable there and will likely not poach. If they're further back, they need serious attention and/or a kick in the butt to chase them closer to the net so they have a shot to return anything that comes their way. If they're on top of the net, they are at least comfortable with the thought of taking a ball out of the air, and hopefully will poach effectively, at least sometimes.

The idea that a volley should be a guaranteed putaway is a little ridiculous and is born out of the mindset that the only time to go to the net is to hit an overhead. I don't know what to tell players who feel this way to get them to change their mind, but if you find out, please let me know.

 

[SlapShot]

As oldhacker says above, planned poaches are difficult at the recreational level because of the difficulty of placing a serve appropriately and consistently and serving and volleying effectively. The only thing more uncommon than seeing either of those skills at 3.5 is seeing both at once.

Unplanned poaches are at the discretion of the net player, and the net player's willingness to poach has everything to do with their perception of the returner's skill, the frequency that the returner has burned them DTL, and their innate confidence in their volleys. The best predictor of the net player's confidence, in my experience, is how close they're willing to stand to the net without prompting from anyone. If they hang out halfway between the service line and the net, they're probably uncomfortable there and will likely not poach. If they're further back, they need serious attention and/or a kick in the butt to chase them closer to the net so they have a shot to return anything that comes their way. If they're on top of the net, they are at least comfortable with the thought of taking a ball out of the air, and hopefully will poach effectively, at least sometimes.

The idea that a volley should be a guaranteed putaway is a little ridiculous and is born out of the mindset that the only time to go to the net is to hit an overhead. I don't know what to tell players who feel this way to get them to change their mind, but if you find out, please let me know.

You actually shouldn't be too close to the net, as it prevents you from moving forward with your weight to hit a solid volley on a poach. I tend to stand almost halfway in between the net and the service line, and that allows me to step in to my volley.

 

[LuckyR]

A couple of things:

First, it is completely possible to be a winning and successful doubles team without much poaching. Especially at the club level or below. A good baseliner style or a power style or a touch style doesn't require much poaching and are all legitimate techniques. The Men's Pro level is a different story but there are probably very few in that category on this Board.

Second, the quickness style (lots of poaching) tends to be very successful at the club level, because not only does it win points by hitting winners, but it also messes with the opponent's heads since they are a bit uncertain where to hit a given ball, and added thought often leads to errors.

Lastly, your title about the correlation between lack of poaching and successful doubles is of course a teaser, but completely inaccurate.

 

[raiden031]

Cindy, Are you saying that 3.0 women poach alot compared to 3.5 women?

My observation about both 3.0 women and 3.5 women is that they don't seem very aggressive at all...too much standing around waiting.

I suspect if you see less poaching at 3.5 then its because the return of serves have gotten better, but not the actual serves. So its harder to poach the returns at 3.5 than the ones at 3.0. You just don't see offensive serves in 3.5 women, at least I haven't except maybe one person.

 

[lostinamerica]

I really do not see much poaching in the men's or women's games until 4.0. Most 3.0/3.5 men and women do not volley with any real authority; most have no concept of S&V and many use one up/one back as their primary formation. For this reason, I am a prima donna and refuse to play doubles with people less than 4.0.

 

[oldhacker]

Hi Cindy - thinking about the point you are making, and others you have made on similar threads, and I think I have spotted an underlying paradox to the frustrations you have with your 3.5 doubles. This being that if a player can do all the things you have on your wish list for a partner effectively (serve & volley, place serves, execute planned poaches, demonstrate proper net and teamwork movement, nail overheads ....) then no way will they be a 3.5 player ! And if they cannot do them effectively human nature dictates that they will stick with what they can do in the pressure of a match situation. I sat through the Wimbledon ladies doubles final a couple of years ago and I can assure you I did not see many of those skills on show from the participants !

 

[spot]

Cindy- 3.0 women don't poach much either. Its just that there are so many sitting ducks that the net player has more opportunity to come across and put away weak balls. But it doesn't require any sort of planned poach to do.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

I'd say at the 4.0 level and below, not a lot of poaching occurs. At the 4.0 level men's level you might see more poaching, but generally players 4.0 and below just aren't comfortable enough at the net to effectively poach. Every once and a while you'll come across an aggressive, saavy net player, but it's not to common at the 4.0 level and below.

Typically though, the higher the level of play the more poaching and variation in formations you will see.

 

[Tennisman912]

Fedace,

Good luck getting someone as a weak 3.5 to poach, especially when on the court with many players more advanced. Firstly, they are just trying not to get killed and will probably not move much. Second, if they are the more aggressive type, they won't be able to process your instructions fast enough in the point to apply the strategy you are giving them (even though it seems simple enough to you). Things just happen too fast. It probably is not going to happen and doesn't in my experience.

Back on topic, I think poaching happens more as the level of play increases. As far as planned poaching, I rarely see it much below 4.0 but the better 4.0 teams certainly do to some extent. My advice below applies to unplanned poaching.

The way I would explain it to someone as to how to poach effectively, and only if asked, I would tell them this. There are only two principles to remember, regardless of level, but the more advanced will just do this intuitively and may not think of it in the way I am explaining. Maybe it will help you.

First principle: I think a person should poach on any ball they can hit above the level of the net, moving forward. By moving forward I mean they will be moving diagonally toward the net to cut off the angle unless the shot is right at them. In other words they have a good chance of winning the point outright or at a minimum really hurting their opponent.
Second principle: If the ball is below the level of the net or already behind you (meaning you can't move forward to hit it) or moving away from you, you should not poach unless the ball is right at you or you know your partner will have no play. Your partner would only not have a play in a shot down the alley, generally speaking. From the right starting position you can cover half the court with a step or two in either direction.

Seems simple, but I have had many who have trouble processing this in a match situation. Here is our reasoning for this. First, any player from 3.0-3.5 and up should be able to consistently put away a shot above the net, in front of them (with your peers on the court, not an advanced player necessarily). The problem is that many can't. If you can't handle this shot on a poach you have no business hitting a poach below the level of the net, essentially ever. For example, I see all the time players who can't handle the easy one (Principle one) consistently, think they should hit the ball below the net, with their weight moving sideways and not forward and wonder why they never win the point. Because if you can't handle the straight forward shot of principle one, how do you think you are going to consistently be able to hurt your opponents when out of position? You aren't and that drives more advanced players nuts when you try. For every time you win the point poaching like this, you will lose the point probably 15-20 times. Playing as smart as possible is the key to making life easy on yourself regardless of your level.

Now as your level of play increases, the shots you can successfully poach on increases obviously, but even advanced players won't poach on a shot they can't put away or end the point on the next shot. That advanced player is not going to attempt that shot at knee level with the ball moving away from them except in dire circumstances.

Regardless of level, keep track of how many easy putaways you miss (you will be surprised how many) and follow the two principles and I think it will help you play smarter, more effective doubles. I hope it helps.

Good tennis to all.

TM

 

[raiden031]

First principle: I think a person should poach on any ball they can hit above the level of the net, moving forward. By moving forward I mean they will be moving diagonally toward the net to cut off the angle unless the shot is right at them.

Second principle: If the ball is below the level of the net or already behind you (meaning you can't move forward to hit it) or moving away from you, you should not poach unless the ball is right at you or you know your partner will have no play. Your partner would only not have a play in a shot down the alley, generally speaking. From the right starting position you can cover half the court with a step or two in either direction.

Regardless of level, keep track of how many easy putaways you miss (you will be surprised how many) and follow the two principles and I think it will help you play smarter, more effective doubles. I hope it helps.

Good tennis to all.

TM

In response to your first principle, whats interesting is that I feel like all the 3.5 players that give me headaches when I'm returning are the ones who sit on top of the net and move horizontally to poach, rather than moving forward in a diagonal pattern. By being so close to the net, they're less likely to spank the ball into the net when mishitting. The only counter I have to these players is to crush the ball at them to scare them off or to lob them (which never works because I can't lob very well).

I actually follow the move forward and diagonal principle but sometimes find myself reacting too late and missing the opportunity to get poachable balls. I also find myself poaching balls I shouldn't be poaching, such as those below the net.

 

[JRstriker12]

In response to your first principle, whats interesting is that I feel like all the 3.5 players that give me headaches when I'm returning are the ones who sit on top of the net and move horizontally to poach, rather than moving forward in a diagonal pattern. By being so close to the net, they're less likely to spank the ball into the net when mishitting. The only counter I have to these players is to crush the ball at them to scare them off or to lob them (which never works because I can't lob very well).

I actually follow the move forward and diagonal principle but sometimes find myself reacting too late and missing the opportunity to get poachable balls. I also find myself poaching balls I shouldn't be poaching, such as those below the net.

IMHO - the 3.5 players hugging the net are usually the guys who can't volley. Sitting to close to the net, they will have a hard time getting to a well hit shot and they will be easy to lob.

True, they may hit a few framed drop volleys, but they'll back up once you hit a few good top spin lobs.

 

[raiden031]

IMHO - the 3.5 players hugging the net are usually the guys who can't volley. Sitting to close to the net, they will have a hard time getting to a well hit shot and they will be easy to lob.

True, they may hit a few framed drop volleys, but they'll back up once you hit a few good top spin lobs.

Whats interesting is that these net huggers are very aggressive up there so they are still putting shots away. I do think that they often either don't know how to play deeper or just don't see any benefit to doing so.

 

[Tennisman912]

Raiden031,

I agree with JRstriker12. In general the closer to the net they are the worse they volley. Hitting at them hard and lobbing are good plays.

If you miss your opportunity to poach because you reacted too slowly, you are always better off letting it go. Forget it and try again next time. The worst thing you can do is rush to try and make up for it and still poach. You will miss it a high percentage of the time.



Good tennis to you all

TM

 

[Cindysphinx]

IMHO - the 3.5 players hugging the net are usually the guys who can't volley. Sitting to close to the net, they will have a hard time getting to a well hit shot and they will be easy to lob.

True, they may hit a few framed drop volleys, but they'll back up once you hit a few good top spin lobs.

Right. People who hug the net are usually the ones who can't volley.

Which is why their net-hugging ways are so effective. All they have to do is block the ball back (usually short), which puts pressure on the baseliner. If they were better volleyers, they could move back some and be in position to help with lobs.

I, however, will lob these players. Especially if their partners are coming to net. The net players is crazy close to the net and doesn't back off at all when her partner is coming in, so Any Old Lob is enough to win the point.

TM, one thing I notice missing from your excellent advice is lateral positioning before the ball is struck. Just staying in front of the ball goes a long way to increase the number of balls that come your way.

Anyway, I have noticed that I don't get nearly the volley winners now at 3.5 that I had at 3.0. Hence the somewhat provocative title of this thread. I'm trying hard to raise my level and help more at the net, though.

 

[Tennisman912]

Cindy,

I would agree that lobbing is usually the best option for most players most of the time, since as you say, it doesn't take a great lob to get over their head and if you do, you will almost always win the point. The net rushing server will mostly not be able to cover your lob, depending on how on the stick they are.

As far as your starting lateral position, that has been debated by many. I personally start in the middle of the service box as a lateral position and 3/4 or so back to the service line. I want to start far enough back I can hit two volleys moving forward, although I will rarely need more than one. From this position, with one step, I can cover the alley unless they paste the line (and they can have that shot as rare as they will hit it), or moving toward the center I can cover my half of the court. I will go farther if the return is particularly weak. As you say, from this position you are now more in front of the returner starting here so if they hit it straight, it will be right to you as you suggest. That is a good thing as that will be enough to throw off some players and you haven't even hit a shot yet. Also remember, by being farther away from the alley as you are in this starting position, you will have many more easy poaches/putaways right at you or moving toward the center of the court than they will slip up the line past you.

You may have to adjust your starting position a bit for your use but that is a good guideline to start from. I will also shift laterally some based on where the serve was placed. How much depends on who I am playing with. I move around quite a lot from this position depending on whether my partner has come to net, whether the returner has followed the return to net, etc.

As far as having less volley winners as you advance, just pick your spots and only volley/poach when you can do so offensively. Don't try to get fancy as you don't need to with rare exception. Keeping it simple will help I am sure. Learning when to poach and just as important, trusting yourself, will take time.


I saw a great tennis quote today.

The difference in the levels of tennis players is often measured not by their strokes but rather by their ability (or inability) to handle "easy shots" effectively.


That is tennis in a nut shell and ties into our poaching discussion. Putting the ball away when you are supposed to, as in a poach situation is very important to everyone's tennis development. Become confident and competent on those easy shots and you will have people begging to be your partner.

Good tennis to all.

TM

 

[Fedace]

^^ Tennisman, i am not asking the 3.5 guy to poach in a sense of taking steps and cutting off the rocket returns. I am talking about after i hit a strong serve and the returner is forced to hit a Weakling duck floater up the middle. I am just asking that person to stick his racket out and hit it up the middle for a easy winner.

 

[jjrl2004]

OK, so I'm getting the lay of the land at 3.5. And I'm starting to notice something:

3.5 women don't poach (defined as moving to take a ball that was directed to the deep person). Hardly at all. They are very conservative about taking a ball unless it comes right to them or is a pop-up/wounded duck. In fact, I'm getting a strong vibe that the fastest way to cheese off your partner is to miss on a poach.

What's my evidence?

The number of planned poaches I have seen at 3.5 in 2008 stands at zero, IIRC.

One of my players who is agile and fast got the distinct impression during a recent loss that her partner was unhappy when she missed a poach. They won't be partnering together in the future.

I have been cautioned more than once by 3.5 partners that I shouldn't take a ball at the net unless I am sure I can put it away. I dunno; can't a decent poach pressure the opponents, even if it is not an immediate winner? Doesn't the threat of a poach increase the errors by the opponents?

This year, I have played against only one 3.5 player who was aggressive at the net. She almost beat us, but her partner was so incredibly weak that we won with a determined game of keep-away. Every other 3.5 player I have played waits patiently at net for a ball they can put away. These women win a lot more than I do; maybe they are on to something?

Now, when I'm serving, I get a little frustrated if my partner doesn't take balls she could reach. I do need some help to hold, and it is hard for me to make opponents miss with the ferocity of my groundstrokes alone. But (thinking of one partner in particular) I get even more frustrated when partners make only a half-hearted attempt at the poach, botching the volley through lack of confidence/intensity (read: flat-footed whack-a-mole). Maybe that is what my partners are seeing with my failed poaches?

Instead of poaching, the modus operandi for net play at 3.5 seems to be for the deep player to work her way in (for the minority of players who aren't happier at the baseline). How well this works depends on how good the deep player is at working her way in.

Anyone else notice this at 3.5? Does this conservative poaching philosophy continue into the higher levels?

Are 3.5 men different in this regard? When I play mixed with my 3.5, 6 feet 6 inch partner, he poaches his head off and I love it. He's the only 3.5 guy I've played with who poaches a lot, though.

My friend and I both poach. We are both top 50 in the nation for 16s so we are 4.0 or something.

Maybe you just play people with different strategies.

 

[baek57]

i love for my partner to poach even if he/she misses. it shows aggression and confidence. they most likely had a better chance at controlling the point than i had at the baseline anyway.

 

[cak]

I agree I see less poaching in 3.5 than in 3.0. I think there are quite a few reasons for this. As someone upthread mentioned, the return of serves in general are better, so you don't get as many floaters. Also the down the line return of serves aren't unheard of, so taking off early can be a bigger detriment. In 3.5 you see both players up more often, and why poach when your partner is already at net. And then there's the problem with poaching while your partner is attempting to come to net, and now is running into you, leaving huge gapping holes on your side of the court.

Also, poaches that were put aways in 3.0 are not in 3.5, so then you have the next step of covering after the poach. If they can lob off the poach you are in trouble. Some of my best winners were off of my opponents weak poaches. I've found that depending on the opponents, if you have opponents that like to poach, but can't put it away, a good strategy is getting the ball close enough they will try to poach, and then they are out of position and you have lots of gaps on their side of the court to put the next shot away. I'm thinking in higher levels all these problems get taken care of, and poaching works better again.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I agree I see less poaching in 3.5 than in 3.0. I think there are quite a few reasons for this. As someone upthread mentioned, the return of serves in general are better, so you don't get as many floaters. Also the down the line return of serves aren't unheard of, so taking off early can be a bigger detriment. In 3.5 you see both players up more often, and why poach when your partner is already at net. And then there's the problem with poaching while your partner is attempting to come to net, and now is running into you, leaving huge gapping holes on your side of the court.

Also, poaches that were put aways in 3.0 are not in 3.5, so then you have the next step of covering after the poach. If they can lob off the poach you are in trouble. Some of my best winners were off of my opponents weak poaches. I've found that depending on the opponents, if you have opponents that like to poach, but can't put it away, a good strategy is getting the ball close enough they will try to poach, and then they are out of position and you have lots of gaps on their side of the court to put the next shot away. I'm thinking in higher levels all these problems get taken care of, and poaching works better again.

Yep, that's exactly right. Of these many factors, the one that is most difficult to swallow as a new 3.5 is how players are able to get a racket on a poach unless it is a killer shot.

 

[hotseat]

imo, it's always a good idea to give your opponents less reaction time, so i will never argue against poaching, even if you miss a few.

 

[Topaz]

I was actually thinking of this thread last night, while I poached in a match!

Let's see, I had about 5 or 6 poaches...none of which were planned. I vary where I stand at the net depending on how the receiver has been returning, and whether it is 1st or 2nd serve, and whether or not I plan to poach (as compared to the times that I know I'm going to sit still and cover my alley).

 

[Cindysphinx]

Topaz, do you poach more this year at 3.5 or last year at 3.0?

I get the impression many people are thinking of "poach" as intercepting a service return only.

The vast majority of my poaches are not off of service returns. They are off of cross-court rallies. If my partner hits a good groundstroke to the deep opponent, the chances that I can pick off the next ball are good. This leaves me crossing all the way into the opposite alley, but a poach is a poach.

I think these poaches are much easier to execute because the previous ball bounced at the baseline, not in the service box like a serve. So I have way more time to scoot over there.

 

[Topaz]

Topaz, do you poach more this year at 3.5 or last year at 3.0?

I get the impression many people are thinking of "poach" as intercepting a service return only.

The vast majority of my poaches are not off of service returns. They are off of cross-court rallies. If my partner hits a good groundstroke to the deep opponent, the chances that I can pick off the next ball are good. This leaves me crossing all the way into the opposite alley, but a poach is a poach.

I think these poaches are much easier to execute because the previous ball bounced at the baseline, not in the service box like a serve. So I have way more time to scoot over there.

I poach more this year, as a 3.5. The biggest reason, though, to be honest, is that I'm more than likely playing with a regular partner. I know how they serve, and I have some idea of what to expect. Even still, they are more often than not, unplanned. If I do it, it is with a partner that I know will cross behind me and cover if I go.

So often, especially in our league matches, we get stuck with someone we don't know. And, even if we've been working on stuff in our clinics, our partner may have no clue...so there goes all that strategy that you (we?) work on. That could also be a very big reason we don't see it in league matches.

 

[JavierLW]

OK, so I'm getting the lay of the land at 3.5. And I'm starting to notice something:

3.5 women don't poach (defined as moving to take a ball that was directed to the deep person). Hardly at all. They are very conservative about taking a ball unless it comes right to them or is a pop-up/wounded duck. In fact, I'm getting a strong vibe that the fastest way to cheese off your partner is to miss on a poach.

What's my evidence?

The number of planned poaches I have seen at 3.5 in 2008 stands at zero, IIRC.

One of my players who is agile and fast got the distinct impression during a recent loss that her partner was unhappy when she missed a poach. They won't be partnering together in the future.

I have been cautioned more than once by 3.5 partners that I shouldn't take a ball at the net unless I am sure I can put it away. I dunno; can't a decent poach pressure the opponents, even if it is not an immediate winner? Doesn't the threat of a poach increase the errors by the opponents?

This year, I have played against only one 3.5 player who was aggressive at the net. She almost beat us, but her partner was so incredibly weak that we won with a determined game of keep-away. Every other 3.5 player I have played waits patiently at net for a ball they can put away. These women win a lot more than I do; maybe they are on to something?

Now, when I'm serving, I get a little frustrated if my partner doesn't take balls she could reach. I do need some help to hold, and it is hard for me to make opponents miss with the ferocity of my groundstrokes alone. But (thinking of one partner in particular) I get even more frustrated when partners make only a half-hearted attempt at the poach, botching the volley through lack of confidence/intensity (read: flat-footed whack-a-mole). Maybe that is what my partners are seeing with my failed poaches?

Instead of poaching, the modus operandi for net play at 3.5 seems to be for the deep player to work her way in (for the minority of players who aren't happier at the baseline). How well this works depends on how good the deep player is at working her way in.

Anyone else notice this at 3.5? Does this conservative poaching philosophy continue into the higher levels?

Are 3.5 men different in this regard? When I play mixed with my 3.5, 6 feet 6 inch partner, he poaches his head off and I love it. He's the only 3.5 guy I've played with who poaches a lot, though.

At 3.5 men (at least here) poaching isnt any more or less common then it was at 3.0.

Although more men actually serve and volley in 3.5 then they did in 3.0, so sometimes they seem to think that it's bad to poach because of that.

(when in reality, they only encounter that because they dont split step on their way in when they serve and volley)

Also when you have two players who BOTH get to the net, you have less need for picking off a shot, it's usually going to one of the two players all the time.

In 3.0 when you play a little more one-up / one-back, you may find you need to poach otherwise you'll just end up sitting around at the net.

And then finally at 3.5 (men at least) you start to see a few players who actually can do a little more from the baseline, so sometimes they get upset if you cut in front of them (although I still think they are wrong).

Im like you, if Im serving I want my partner to take any ball that they can. However frustrating enough at 3.5, not every partner is able or willing to do that yet.

 

[johnny ballgame]

Does this conservative poaching philosophy continue into the higher levels?

Guessing 'no' on this question, although I haven't watched many women's USTA league matches. Serves get bigger at higher levels, which generally leads to more poaching.

 

[volleyman]

For the guys, starting at the high end of 4.0, good doubles teams are always looking to poach. They poach off serves, service returns, groundstrokes and volleys. Any weak or anticipated shot is fair game, at any time during a point.

 

[marcl65]

Im like you, if Im serving I want my partner to take any ball that they can. However frustrating enough at 3.5, not every partner is able or willing to do that yet.

Amen. Plus, I actually had one lady complain to me that her partner was "stealing" her shots. My response was, "Did she win the point?" I run into too many players, male & female, 3.0 to 3.5, who think that the only point of a net person is to cover the alley shot. An aggressive net player is going to win more points than he loses. He can win points just by making the returner think about him poaching.

 

[OrangeOne]

For the guys, starting at the high end of 4.0, good doubles teams are always looking to poach. They poach off serves, service returns, groundstrokes and volleys. Any weak or anticipated shot is fair game, at any time during a point.

...and I thought I'd seen everything!

 

[burosky]

Personally, I find it more difficult to poach when I play against higher rated or better players. Why? Because from experience, unless they are out of position, out of balance or hurried, they can easily change their shot or keep it low and/or away to avoid poaches. If I don't put the poach away or worse not get to the ball at all, it puts me and my partner in a bad position. This is why although I don't mind getting passed, I still tend to be very selective when I poach under this conditions. Conversely, when I play against lower rated players, again from experience, I find I can gamble more because the quality of the shot is different.

What I'm trying to say is the frequency of poaching depends on the situation. If you play against better players, you probably will poach less. If you play against your peers, it will be somewhat average and when you play against lower players you will tend to poach more. Of course this is all relative to the individual. A player who doesn't like to poach will not poach much where as a player who likes to poach will poach with frequency determined by the conditions.