The Revised "Art of Doubles": Necessary and Unnecessary Doubles Shots

[Cindysphinx]

I'll summarize differences between AofD and the new AofD. Then we can all argue about whether Blaskower has gone completely off her rocker.

There's a new section where she recommends shots you need for doubles (called "essential") and shots you don't need (which are "a waste of time and money" to learn).

Essential:

Half Volley -- "most important shot in doubles."

Spin Serve -- serving flat all the time puts ball into wheelhouse of good returners; adding spin doesn't allow returner to set his feet and allows server control of first volley.

An "Excellent Array of Volleys" -- deep ugly volleys to defeat lob queens, angle volleys, drop volleys, swinging volleys, lob volley. Disses the 2HBH volley as a "huge liability."

A "Creative Overhead" -- ability to angle it.

Drop shot -- "The most devastating weapon you have against incessant lobbers." The key to a perfect drop shot is to use "the stroke production of your volley to create underspin and make sure it has a great deal of height." "Make sure that you keep the apex on your side because the higher it is on your side, the shorter it drops on their side."

A Slice BH -- "If you can't slice your BH, then you can't move through your return" and you will arrive to the net late.

Unnecessary:

An underspin lob -- "An underspin lob can be executed off any serve, will bounce and stop dead because of the spin, and will stay in the court in the wind." It has excellent disguise. [Note: I think Blaskower made an error and meant to include the underspin lob as an essential shot, not an unnecessary one. Oops.]

Topspin groundstrokes -- "Your ball is going to be rising and gaining net clearance just as the server arrives in position to hit down on your ball."

A big, flat serve -- It allows returners to tee off and shortens the time you have to get to net. "For every ace you hit, ten returns will come whizzing by your outstretched racquet faster than you can prepare to volley them."

A topspin lob -- This shot takes time and you have to set your feet, so it can't be a service return. Only useful when you are in a defensive position and you have time to step in and lift it over the net team's heads.

2HBH -- "Two-handed backhands are superfluous in doubles." If you have one, you can be effective with service return. If you don't have a 2HBH, don't bother to learn one. But all you really need is a 1HBH slice. 2HBH has difficulty with kicker to the BH and struggle to take the non-dominant hand off the racquet and switch to 1HBH volley.

**************

What do you guys think?

Cindy -- who would kill for a topspin lob for doubles

 

[randomname]

Unnecessary:


Topspin groundstrokes -- "Your ball is going to be rising and gaining net clearance just as the server arrives in position to hit down on your ball."

A topspin lob -- This shot takes time and you have to set your feet, so it can't be a service return. Only useful when you are in a defensive position and you have time to step in and lift it over the net team's heads.

2HBH -- "Two-handed backhands are superfluous in doubles." If you have one, you can be effective with service return. If you don't have a 2HBH, don't bother to learn one. But all you really need is a 1HBH slice. 2HBH has difficulty with kicker to the BH and struggle to take the non-dominant hand off the racquet and switch to 1HBH volley.

**************

What do you guys think?

Cindy -- who would kill for a topspin lob for doubles

Blasphemy!!! all of those shots are great for doubles, I love using spinny shots to drop them right at my opponents feet when theyre charging the net, theres a guy on my team who can absolutely tear teams apart with his topspin lobs and my 2hbh is my most useful shot in doubles, i can tee off of serves with it and its great for keeping the ball low or pounding it through an opening

 

[ACK4wd]

I have a very consistant Top Spin lob - which I practice for games against old-tymers (who used to be amazing but still play excellent doubles) - I have found that for men's doubles players who are able play well in position rarely give an opportunity to use the shot -- It's more of one of those "secret shots" most of the time - excellent shot to use when a really good net player ("a goalie") camps out and there is no "blasting him or her away" - the offensive lob (top-spin) is a faster shot than the back spin variety and forces them back .. a real weapon against older but former sharp shooters who would otherwise kill you.

But there is not as frequent a need in my league..

I think that section is geared as a primer by percentage .. but know what you are saying about the blasphemy..

 

[Cindysphinx]

Blasphemy!!! all of those shots are great for doubles, I love using spinny shots to drop them right at my opponents feet when theyre charging the net, theres a guy on my team who can absolutely tear teams apart with his topspin lobs and my 2hbh is my most useful shot in doubles, i can tee off of serves with it and its great for keeping the ball low or pounding it through an opening

I played a mixed 7.0 match the other night. The opposing male player hit big topspin, and he beat me more often than not.

I spent 15 minutes in my lesson today learning to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Anyone hitting loopy topspin in doubles is asking for trouble. The topspin dippers i was facing are perfect for doubles.

 

[TonyB]

Blasphemy!!! all of those shots are great for doubles, I love using spinny shots to drop them right at my opponents feet when theyre charging the net, theres a guy on my team who can absolutely tear teams apart with his topspin lobs and my 2hbh is my most useful shot in doubles, i can tee off of serves with it and its great for keeping the ball low or pounding it through an opening

I agree 100%.

Topspin lob: ESSENTIAL for good doubles play. I use it all the time in my 4.5 men's doubles games (is that 9.0?).

Topspin groundies: ESSENTIAL to make the ball dip to the netman's feet on both return of serve and when your opponents own the net.

2HBH: MUCH easier to return a hard serve with 2 hands. Period. I personally do not have a 2HBH, but I can live with the fact that my returns are naturally weaker than if I did, particularly on high kickers to the ad court.



Thanks Cindy. Sounds like one book I will NOT be buying.

 

[spot]

yeah- I never really understood why the original book was considered gospel by so many people. Maybe if I read the book they would make more sense to me but I really don't see the strategy behind these recommendations at all.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Oh, and I was shocked to read that she advocates high-arcing drop shots. I *wish* my opponent would hit that while I'm at net. Very easy to cross and hit a winner. My own drop shot is too rusty to be useful now, but I used to use it against weak second serves with good results. It was not a high loopy one, though. It was a scoop, not much backspin, precisely because of the need to keep it low.

I also think a big flat serve is key. If you only hit slice, returners eventually step closer to the service line. You have to back them up with a flat serve to the body every now and then. Not to mention how you can force some pop-ups if you have a good flat serve against weak returners. All returners are not alike. Some like pace, some don't. Gotta tailor the serve to the returner, I think.

 

[volleyman]

Eh, you can live without a big flat serve in doubles. You do have to be able to vary the spin and location on your spin serves to keep your opponent out of the groove.

High arcing drop shots are useful, if your opponents are playing two-back. If not, ouch.

As for topspin drives, lobs and 2HBH's she's out of her mind.

 

[couch]

When was this book published; 1965? LOL

 

[Applesauceman]

The half volley is an important shot, but not the most important. IMO, the most important shots in doubles (tennis for that matter) are serve and return of serve. If you can't get the point started, nothing else matters.

 

[fe6250]

The half volley is an important shot, but not the most important. IMO, the most important shots in doubles (tennis for that matter) are serve and return of serve. If you can't get the point started, nothing else matters.

I agree with that too - especially at the higher levels. Serves and return of serves are SOOOO important. I spend a great deal of my drill time working on these two aspects of my game.

 

[Cindysphinx]

She should probably have said that the half volley is the most underpracticed shot in tennis.

 

[Applesauceman]

I would agree with that totally. A half volley is very much a transition shot (transition to an offensive position at the net), and a lot of players that I encounter don't like to take the ball out of the air unless they have a volley or an overhead. The half volley can be a difficult shot.

 

[couch]

Yes; the serve and return are the most important shots in doubles followed closely by the first volley.
Normally whoever hits the best one of these shots wins the point. These shots are even more important as the skill level goes up.

 

[spot]

Its flat ridiculous to call the half volley the most important shot in doubles. I would bet that if you did an analysis the team that hits more half volleys would lose the majority of the matches. Anytime I can make my opponent hit a half volley its an advantage for my team. Weird advice all the way around.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Only disagree with the slice lob and 2HBH.

If you can't lob off of a serve, which I agree rarely ever occurs, are you never supposed to lob off the serve? Lobbing off serves mixes it up and keeps your opponents from charging to hard. Unless he's doesn't include chip lobs to be slice of underspin, but that's a little nit picky.

The two handed backhand isn't a liability off outwide kickers or lefty slices, if the two hander knows how to return them. In fact I think one handers have just as much problems if not more. Yes they can slice it, but two handers hit 1HBH slices too.

 

[WBF]

Essential:

Half Volley
Spin Serve
An "Excellent Array of Volleys"
A "Creative Overhead"
Drop shot
-Agree on all these

A Slice BH
-Not so much here. Not "essential".

Unnecessary:

An underspin lob
-If this was meant to be in necessary, I disagree. You will have to hit it slower or with greater height to ensure it goes in (vs. topspin). Topspin lobs >>>>> underspin or flat lobs.

Topspin groundstrokes
-Strongly Disagree. One of my absolute *favorite* shots is getting lobbed, having my opponents smarmy and excited for a weak sitter or lob, and nailing a huge topspin shot that lands very short - right at their feet. Nothing they can do to attack it. Angles need topspin as well.

A big, flat serve
-If you have a bad "big, flat" serve, of course you would want to avoid it. A good flat serve that forces many errors is never "unnecessary".

A topspin lob
-I'm getting more and more confused. Is this about doubles or what? The topspin lob is a sweet shot to have control over. Ever play on grass? This shot is nearly unstoppable. Can hit harder due to topspin, ball never comes up and may misbounce, and topspin speeds it up.

2HBH -- "Two-handed backhands are superfluous in doubles." If you have one, you can be effective with service return. If you don't have a 2HBH, don't bother to learn one. But all you really need is a 1HBH slice. 2HBH has difficulty with kicker to the BH and struggle to take the non-dominant hand off the racquet and switch to 1HBH volley.
-Ah ha. So is this for beginners? Why does a 2HBH player struggle with kickers? Just hit a slice, move in a little, or adjust in some other way. Are 2HBH users mentally handicapped? We can't have other strokes? Struggle to get non-dominant hand off the racquet? What? hehe

 

[WBF]

Yes; the serve and return are the most important shots in doubles followed closely by the first volley.
Normally whoever hits the best one of these shots wins the point. These shots are even more important as the skill level goes up.

I agree. My father and I can take out players far better than ourselves due to overpowering serves on both our parts, returns on my part and somewhat on his, and first volleys on his part. I always get scared during warmup when they never miss and hit crisp, deep volleys without moving much, but when you work to eliminate those shots from play...

 

[goober]

I disagree with many of the Unnecessary section:

An underspin lob -- "An underspin lob can be executed off any serve, will bounce and stop dead because of the spin, and will stay in the court in the wind." It has excellent disguise.

I agree it sounds like the author is advocating it here. But I actually think it is unnecessary if you have a good topspin lob

Topspin groundstrokes -- "Your ball is going to be rising and gaining net clearance just as the server arrives in position to hit down on your ball."

Strongly disagree- topspin strokes have their place in doubles. Dipping crosscourt passing shots are great. This tidbit about the server arriving in position to hit down on the ball may apply to low level tennis. On higher levels the ball will be hit with heavy topspin and pace

A big, flat serve -- It allows returners to tee off and shortens the time you have to get to net. "For every ace you hit, ten returns will come whizzing by your outstretched racquet faster than you can prepare to volley them."

You should mix your serve up. A big flat serve is not either an ace or a return winner. It can force an error or a weak return if well placed.

A topspin lob -- This shot takes time and you have to set your feet, so it can't be a service return. Only useful when you are in a defensive position and you have time to step in and lift it over the net team's heads.

A topspin lob is a great lob for doubles. It is safer and usually a winner. I would always hit this over an underspin lob if given the choice.

2HBH -- "Two-handed backhands are superfluous in doubles." If you have one, you can be effective with service return. If you don't have a 2HBH, don't bother to learn one. But all you really need is a 1HBH slice. 2HBH has difficulty with kicker to the BH and struggle to take the non-dominant hand off the racquet and switch to 1HBH volley.
un

2HBH IMO are actually better in returning kickers. Yeah I wouldn't learn one to play doubles if you don't already have one, but that statement is about as dumb as 1HBH are superfluous for singles. You use whatever backhand you already have neither is superfluous

 

[Moz]

It looks like she looked at what she could do and what she couldn't and constructed the list that way. I hardly see the point of addressing the list as the advice is so awful.

Does she still advocate having the toilet at the end of the garden as well?

 

[Thud and blunder]

This discussion is meaningless without consideration of what level of player the advice is aimed at. It seems that the book's target audience is more recreational players wanting to add a bit of strategy than high-level players who can dip a topspin drive onto an advancing server's shoelaces.

Then one can argue about whether the book succeeds on those terms.

 

[Supernatural_Serve]

Unnecessary:

Topspin groundstrokes -- "Your ball is going to be rising and gaining net clearance just as the server arrives in position to hit down on your ball."

That's simply terrible advice. Everyone should learn to hit with topspin for a lot of reasons and all those reasons apply in doubles.

 

[goober]

This discussion is meaningless without consideration of what level of player the advice is aimed at. It seems that the book's target audience is more recreational players wanting to add a bit of strategy than high-level players who can dip a topspin drive onto an advancing server's shoelaces.

Then one can argue about whether the book succeeds on those terms.

While that maybe true, I still think it is dangerous advice. Should low level players not develop topspin shots? If you are woman with a decent 2HBH are you really better served by switching to a 1 HBH which is likely to be a very weak shot? How many low level players are truly capable of hitting kick serves ?

 

[Cindysphinx]

This discussion is meaningless without consideration of what level of player the advice is aimed at. It seems that the book's target audience is more recreational players wanting to add a bit of strategy than high-level players who can dip a topspin drive onto an advancing server's shoelaces.

Then one can argue about whether the book succeeds on those terms.

She doesn't say who her target audience is.

Still, I don't think it makes sense to give low level players advice that will hold them back. My own pro thinks that you should play the game the way it should be played at a higher level, as there is no point in learning to play wrong and then when your strokes improve you have to unlearn all these bad tendencies. I remember him telling me early on that a volley to the open court is better than trying to hit the feet of the net person because better players will get that ball back. I think he's right. Eventually your strokes will catch up with correct strategy.

Anyway, if a 2.5 level doubles specialist came to me and said she was wondering what she should learn to win more, I would say hitting groundstrokes with topspin is key.

 

[WBF]

Still, I don't think it makes sense to give low level players advice that will hold them back. My own pro thinks that you should play the game the way it should be played at a higher level, as there is no point in learning to play wrong and then when your strokes improve you have to unlearn all these bad tendencies.

Completely agree. Sadly, many teachers do advocate these limiting ideas when teaching players who aren't young.

 

[Thud and blunder]

Different patterns of play can be more or less effective at different levels (often dramatically). To deny this and pretend we should all be doing the same things may give us amateurs a warm fuzzy feeling, but it's not grounded in reality.

Perhaps the bigger problem is that some people want to be handed the Stone Tablets of Doubles. It's just a book. Read it with a critical mind. Dip into it where appropriate. Try some stuff. See if it works for you. YMMV.

Anyway, if a 2.5 level doubles specialist came to me...

That's certainly a new category to me...

 

[JRstriker12]

Half volleys are an essentail tool, but I don't think most people want to hit one as it's much better to get in closer to the net and hit a volley.

I'd hit a topspin lob over and underspin lob any day. IMHO, the slice in the underspin lob will not bring the ball down into the court like topspin does and it checks up instead of running away from your opponent.

I hit with a lot of topspin. I've hit looping forehands that end up being lob-like winners and topspin is essential for dipping the ball at your opponent's feet. Yes you passing shots need to be more flat instead of loopy, but topspin is still needed to bring that ball down into the court.

Drop shot - meh... it can come in handy, but you are dead of the guy at the net is quick enough to bail his partner out or if the guy being drop shotted moves forward very quickly.

A big flat serve isn't necessary, but it's still useful. If you get a weak return from your flat serve, then you partner can knock it off for a volley winner.

 

[JRstriker12]

Oh, and I was shocked to read that she advocates high-arcing drop shots. I *wish* my opponent would hit that while I'm at net. Very easy to cross and hit a winner. My own drop shot is too rusty to be useful now, but I used to use it against weak second serves with good results. It was not a high loopy one, though. It was a scoop, not much backspin, precisely because of the need to keep it low.

I also think a big flat serve is key. If you only hit slice, returners eventually step closer to the service line. You have to back them up with a flat serve to the body every now and then. Not to mention how you can force some pop-ups if you have a good flat serve against weak returners. All returners are not alike. Some like pace, some don't. Gotta tailor the serve to the returner, I think.

Read-reading the drop shot section, it looks like the authour is saying that the peak of the arc should be on your side of the net and the lower end of the arc should be on the opponent's side.

 

[tbini87]

the only thing i really didn't understand was the no 2hbh idea. if you have a 2hbh... that is what you gotta use, which includes doubles too. is he starting with the idea that most people hit 1hbh and would have to learn the 2hbh? that is about the only thing i could come up with for a reason that he would write that.

i also disagree with the no need for top spin strokes. hitting flat is great and all, if that is how you hit all the time. but i think it is acceptable to use topspin to drive the ball (dtn, crosscourt, dtm). it is also nice to have topspin to get the ball at the servers feet as he comes in.

 

[tbini87]

I also think a big flat serve is key. If you only hit slice, returners eventually step closer to the service line. You have to back them up with a flat serve to the body every now and then. Not to mention how you can force some pop-ups if you have a good flat serve against weak returners. All returners are not alike. Some like pace, some don't. Gotta tailor the serve to the returner, I think.

i agree that you have to change the serve depending on the returner, but i don't think a big flat serve is all that important. getting a good percentage of 1st serves in is important, and i don't know that trying to hit big flat serves usually serves that purpose. also, with enough spin or kick you can definitely prevent your opponent from stepping in (unless they are really athletic... then you might have to resort to hitting it flat). swinging the ball out wide and switching location will also make it really hard to step in on and rip a return. by changing up spins you can also get the returner all messed up and get some really weak returns from him. i don't think that pace is needed to get a weak return. so though a big flat serve might be nice, it is definitely not necessary or even all that important imo.

 

[Nellie]

This discussion is meaningless without consideration of what level of player the advice is aimed at. It seems that the book's target audience is more recreational players wanting to add a bit of strategy than high-level players who can dip a topspin drive onto an advancing server's shoelaces.

Then one can argue about whether the book succeeds on those terms.

This is my thought exactly - this advice is obviously directed to a fairly novice player. I think the Bryan brothers would have some disagreements with most of this advice.

Instead of taking shots at particular shots, I really think the writer should have focused in strategy -

get a high pertentage of first serves in (e.g, do not hit flat serves unless you can get them in at a high percentage)

keep the ball low (e.g., don't hit loopy topspin )

come forward and be agressive (e.g., hit half volleys and approach)

Mix up the return of service (e.g., hit a slice lob off of the serve return - the top spin lob on a return of serve is too hard)

 

[Cindysphinx]

i agree that you have to change the serve depending on the returner, but i don't think a big flat serve is all that important. getting a good percentage of 1st serves in is important, and i don't know that trying to hit big flat serves usually serves that purpose. also, with enough spin or kick you can definitely prevent your opponent from stepping in (unless they are really athletic... then you might have to resort to hitting it flat). swinging the ball out wide and switching location will also make it really hard to step in on and rip a return. by changing up spins you can also get the returner all messed up and get some really weak returns from him. i don't think that pace is needed to get a weak return. so though a big flat serve might be nice, it is definitely not necessary or even all that important imo.

You have to remember that some of us (say, middle-aged 3.5 women) are not likely to have six-foot kickers or American Twists. We have flat serves, and hopefully we have a slice. That is the extent of my variety.

On a good day, I have both. By mixing it up and tailoring shot selection to the opponent, I can have a very good day.

But I have had periods where I lost confidence in my flat serve and relied only on the slice. These were not good service days. The reason is my opponents know for a fact my ball will always hit and move a certain way. They start moving closer and closer, and the better returners can get me in trouble with drop shot returns, etc. Being able to serve hard to the body encourages them to move back and opens up more options for me. It also helps me punish players who cheat way to one side to protect one wing.

The big flat serve is not about aces. It's about variety and overall effectiveness.

 

[Grapto]

I totally disagree with that top spin ground strokes are useless in doubles. Many people have already mentioned that dipping the ball into the net man's feet by using top spin strokes is very useful. Since she emphasized the importance of 'half-volley', let's assume that you have a very good defensive half-volley against the fast dropping ball on your feet. Even with that said, top spin shots have higher percentage of success in making 'sharply angled' shots (sometimes they are winners!) than flat shots do because there is an object called 'net' in tennis that every shot has to fly over.
I have lost so many matches in doubles of 3.0~3.5 level players because of loopy topspin lobs. These shots are just overwhelming when you can consistently launch, especially to their 'weak' wing - deep into the backhand side alley. This is still happening now in my mixed doubles league. Consistant top spin lobs force me to stay behind with my partner, we have no choice but replying with another loopy lob-this is why this shot is 'necessary' in doubles.

 

[LuckyR]

Essential:

Half Volley -- "most important shot in doubles."

Spin Serve -- serving flat all the time puts ball into wheelhouse of good returners; adding spin doesn't allow returner to set his feet and allows server control of first volley.

An "Excellent Array of Volleys" -- deep ugly volleys to defeat lob queens, angle volleys, drop volleys, swinging volleys, lob volley. Disses the 2HBH volley as a "huge liability."

A "Creative Overhead" -- ability to angle it.

Drop shot -- "The most devastating weapon you have against incessant lobbers." The key to a perfect drop shot is to use "the stroke production of your volley to create underspin and make sure it has a great deal of height." "Make sure that you keep the apex on your side because the higher it is on your side, the shorter it drops on their side."

A Slice BH -- "If you can't slice your BH, then you can't move through your return" and you will arrive to the net late.

Unnecessary:

An underspin lob -- "An underspin lob can be executed off any serve, will bounce and stop dead because of the spin, and will stay in the court in the wind." It has excellent disguise. [Note: I think Blaskower made an error and meant to include the underspin lob as an essential shot, not an unnecessary one. Oops.]

Topspin groundstrokes -- "Your ball is going to be rising and gaining net clearance just as the server arrives in position to hit down on your ball."

A big, flat serve -- It allows returners to tee off and shortens the time you have to get to net. "For every ace you hit, ten returns will come whizzing by your outstretched racquet faster than you can prepare to volley them."

A topspin lob -- This shot takes time and you have to set your feet, so it can't be a service return. Only useful when you are in a defensive position and you have time to step in and lift it over the net team's heads.

2HBH -- "Two-handed backhands are superfluous in doubles." If you have one, you can be effective with service return. If you don't have a 2HBH, don't bother to learn one. But all you really need is a 1HBH slice. 2HBH has difficulty with kicker to the BH and struggle to take the non-dominant hand off the racquet and switch to 1HBH volley.

The half volley, is the source of many, many outright errors in the S&V style. Not making errors and not coughing up sitters by having a decent one, is very valuable.

Spin serve essential, no doubt about it.

Volleys are essential of course but what I think she was trying to describe are "good or soft hands" that MacEnroe touch, very useful if you have it, but if you have a power style, not essential.

Agree that placing overheads is more important than booming them up the middle.

Dropshots, can be totally absent from you skillset without effecting your win/loss ratio.

Slice BH- see dropshot

Underspin lobs, essential IMO as they can keep you in points that you will definitely lose as it is a defensive shot. In addition winning a point when an underspin lob has been used will net you 10x the Mental Game toll on the other team as winning a regular point.

Topspin groundies extremely important to get passing angles and putaways on sitters. In addition thats how you force the other team to hit a lot of half volleys.

Big flat serve, not essential but icing on the cake if you have one, since cheap service winner points can really help when your partner is having a temporary case of the "yips".

Topspin lob- see flat serve ie not essential but comes in very handy for cheap winners when the other team is crowding the net.

2HBH- not my style, but completely compatible with the game of doubles. Can come up with devastating passes from the baseline (of course 1HBH can too).

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Wow!!! Great stuff!

I'm not sure this is why Blaskower wrote it, but I'm glad the book is generating so much discussion of dubs. Wa-hoo!!!

And, Nellie, I love the Bryans, but I don't want my kids emulating their unorthodox play. (Too much 1U-1B for me.)

Too many "modern" players use the Flat Serve too often in dubs. It throws off your Net Player's timing if you're bombing the Flats more than once a game. I want the Net Player to be very active and very much a pain in the neck to the Bad Guys. Serving Flat neutralizes the Net Player too much, IMO.

(I have a Big serve. But in dubs, I hit probably 60% Slice, 35% Kick and only 5% Flat.)

Doubles Essentials:
(a) Two different, reliable and accurate Spin Serves.
(b) Confidence in your Returns.
(c) Better-than-average volleying skills.
(d) Good "matching" with your partner. [Either a "touch" player with a "power" player ... two quick and agile players who will cross and dig a lot ... a "leader" with good strategic sense matched with a willing-to-try-anything partner ... a "boomer" with a "scrambler" ... etc.]

- KK

 

[Tennis Truth]

One handed slice, the only thing you need?

A couple of guys I play regularly will slice everything that comes to their backhand side. Meaning their only backhand is a one handed slice shot. They hit it well, but it is a definite weakness not being able to come over the ball and hit topspin on passing shots.

In doubles, it makes it much easier to serve and volley to the backhand when I know they only slice. It makes the first volley that much easier, since I know they are not going to really rip the ball or dip it at my feet. Plus, a slice return of serve is generally easier for my partner to poach than a faster topspin return.

How many kids today are being taught only the one handed slice backhand? I would say virtually none. You need topspin off both sides, especially at the higher levels.

 

[LuckyR]

A couple of guys I play regularly will slice everything that comes to their backhand side. Meaning their only backhand is a one handed slice shot. They hit it well, but it is a definite weakness not being able to come over the ball and hit topspin on passing shots.

In doubles, it makes it much easier to serve and volley to the backhand when I know they only slice. It makes the first volley that much easier, since I know they are not going to really rip the ball or dip it at my feet. Plus, a slice return of serve is generally easier for my partner to poach than a faster topspin return.

How many kids today are being taught only the one handed slice backhand? I would say virtually none. You need topspin off both sides, especially at the higher levels.

Having already posted that a slice BH is of limited importance, I will say that a chip (sliced) BH return of serve, when done correctly (especially off of kick serves) can be made to drop quite nicely at the shoetops of approaching servers.

 

[tbini87]

You have to remember that some of us (say, middle-aged 3.5 women) are not likely to have six-foot kickers or American Twists. We have flat serves, and hopefully we have a slice. That is the extent of my variety.

On a good day, I have both. By mixing it up and tailoring shot selection to the opponent, I can have a very good day.

But I have had periods where I lost confidence in my flat serve and relied only on the slice. These were not good service days. The reason is my opponents know for a fact my ball will always hit and move a certain way. They start moving closer and closer, and the better returners can get me in trouble with drop shot returns, etc. Being able to serve hard to the body encourages them to move back and opens up more options for me. It also helps me punish players who cheat way to one side to protect one wing.

The big flat serve is not about aces. It's about variety and overall effectiveness.

i get what you were trying to say, but you have a personal case that isn't really applicable to everyone (especially not men). so i guess we would have to look at each level of play and make new adjustments for each level (which is probably why so many of us disagree with the author. we are all looking at it from our point of view, and the author has to try to write a book that is applicable all across the board. not an easy thing to do.) however, you say the big flat serve is not about aces, but i think most people would disagree with you. it is a low percentage shot, which is why most people don't go for it very often. using to it here and there is fine in dubs, but is in no way necessary or even important to have, imo. i can't really speak to middle aged women, but for men having some spin serves and kickers is much more important, and being able to run the ball off the court is a nice weapon (setting up serves up the T).

i think if you want to say a flat serve is about variety and overall effectiveness then that is fine with me. if you say a BIG FLAT SERVE is necessary and not about aces, then i disagree. it doesn't have to be big to mix it up or be effective. and since for most it is not a high percentage shot (if it is, then go for it all you want) i don't think it should be used all that often in doubles...

 

[Cindysphinx]

If you're going at the body to back someone off the service line, a flat serve has to be "big."

Simply having a flat serve isn't especially impressive. In fact, I would say that for women, 100% have a flat serve (as most of us learn a flat serve before we learn to slice). Opponents will not be pressured by a garden-variety flat serve unless it is fast and well-placed, i.e. "big."

"Big" will vary based on the returner, of course, but it has to be big enough to force a bad shot and make them think twice about crowding the service line, and a moderate serve won't get the job done, in my experience.

What I like to do is start the match slicing and seeing how the returners handle spin. If they wise up and start receiving closer, then I serve to the body as hard as I can. Thereafter, I do whatever seems to make sense at the time, just mixing it up. But I will hit some hard flat ones, for sure.

As for the percentage of tennis players who share my, erm, limited serve variety, I would say it is pretty high, actually. My guess is that you have to get to 4.0 for men and higher for women to find players who can consistently execute twist or kick serves that will bother their opponents.

 

[tbini87]

If you're going at the body to back someone off the service line, a flat serve has to be "big."

Simply having a flat serve isn't especially impressive. In fact, I would say that for women, 100% have a flat serve (as most of us learn a flat serve before we learn to slice). Opponents will not be pressured by a garden-variety flat serve unless it is fast and well-placed, i.e. "big."

"Big" will vary based on the returner, of course, but it has to be big enough to force a bad shot and make them think twice about crowding the service line, and a moderate serve won't get the job done, in my experience.

What I like to do is start the match slicing and seeing how the returners handle spin. If they wise up and start receiving closer, then I serve to the body as hard as I can. Thereafter, I do whatever seems to make sense at the time, just mixing it up. But I will hit some hard flat ones, for sure.

As for the percentage of tennis players who share my, erm, limited serve variety, I would say it is pretty high, actually. My guess is that you have to get to 4.0 for men and higher for women to find players who can consistently execute twist or kick serves that will bother their opponents.

fair enough. i guess i am confused on what you consider big. when you say you hit a "big" serve "as hard as you can, are you referring to as hard as you can while keeping it in, or as hard as you can serve. i actually find it odd that people make a kick serve such a big deal, when in reality you get more net clearance and get the ball to dip in the court when you hit it. this makes it a more controllable shot than the flat serve. so you can actually swing "bigger" on a kick or spin serve than you can with a flat serve. i guess we can agree to disagree. i still believe that a big flat serve is not necessary. maybe it is because i rarely hit a flat serve in doubles and am very effective on my service games.

but as you have pointed out, each player has to use what works for them (which is why everyone will have different problems with what the author of the book wrote) and can't all be forced to use the same strategies and tactics...

 

[tbini87]

oh, and like i said before, if you can slam bombs consistently (with big flat serves) then go ahead! these players just seem few and far between, so it wouldn't make sense to tell everyone that they need this shot in doubles when it is pretty hard to come by. kind of like needing a backhand overhead... would be nice to have, and if you have it then awesome. but hardly a shot that you can't play doubles without... unlike a good slice or kick serve...

 

[Cindysphinx]

fair enough. i guess i am confused on what you consider big. when you say you hit a "big" serve "as hard as you can, are you referring to as hard as you can while keeping it in, or as hard as you can serve. i actually find it odd that people make a kick serve such a big deal, when in reality you get more net clearance and get the ball to dip in the court when you hit it. this makes it a more controllable shot than the flat serve. so you can actually swing "bigger" on a kick or spin serve than you can with a flat serve. i guess we can agree to disagree. i still believe that a big flat serve is not necessary. maybe it is because i rarely hit a flat serve in doubles and am very effective on my service games.

but as you have pointed out, each player has to use what works for them (which is why everyone will have different problems with what the author of the book wrote) and can't all be forced to use the same strategies and tactics...

Big is "as fast as I can hit it and have a decent chance that it will go in." I will accept some risk that it will go out because I can't bother anyone or back them up without some pace.

And yes, a kick serve is a really big deal. I can't hit one at all, and I don't know any women at 3.5 or below who are even close to having one. My pro has discouraged me from putting in the time/money to learn it, feeling that the effort will pay much bigger dividends if applied to acquiring other shots I lack. It would take some doing to get it to kick outside of my opponent's wheel house, although it would be useful for serving out wide in the ad court.

So I will likely go to my grave hitting a flat serve and a slice.

 

[tbini87]

^^ haha. i totally agree about not wasting tons of time/money on a shot that would be very difficult for you to pull off. so maybe we can say a flat serve is necessary for women 3.5 and below since they can't hit a kicker.

what is stopping you from being able to hit a kicker? do you know the mechanics? because one thing about serving is that you don't need a pro there to help you practice (for the most part). if you know the basic fundamentals you should be able to take out a basket and practice serves all you want, without spending much money or time with a pro...

 

[Cindysphinx]

^^ haha. i totally agree about not wasting tons of time/money on a shot that would be very difficult for you to pull off. so maybe we can say a flat serve is necessary for women 3.5 and below since they can't hit a kicker.

what is stopping you from being able to hit a kicker? do you know the mechanics? because one thing about serving is that you don't need a pro there to help you practice (for the most part). if you know the basic fundamentals you should be able to take out a basket and practice serves all you want, without spending much money or time with a pro...

What's stopping me?

Age. I think I'd probably just hurt myself.

 

[tbini87]

^ ok. i can't really relate to that yet. no worries though sounds like you can get by with a flat serve and a slice. at your level does anyone ever s&v?

 

[Cindysphinx]

^ ok. i can't really relate to that yet. no worries though sounds like you can get by with a flat serve and a slice. at your level does anyone ever s&v?

You'll see S&V in 3.5 ladies, but it's pretty rare. It's just so easy to hit it at their feet or lob the net person for an easy point. And most players are in no hurry to get to the net anyway, on account of significant Fear Of The Lob.

I'd like to start doing it again, but my serve has been off for months now. I have a match next week. If my serve behaves, I'll toss in a few S&Vs to see what happens.

 

[tbini87]

You'll see S&V in 3.5 ladies, but it's pretty rare. It's just so easy to hit it at their feet or lob the net person for an easy point. And most players are in no hurry to get to the net anyway, on account of significant Fear Of The Lob.

I'd like to start doing it again, but my serve has been off for months now. I have a match next week. If my serve behaves, I'll toss in a few S&Vs to see what happens.

sounds like a plan! it sounds like you ladies use the lob a lot more than what i am used to seeing right now. you will rarely see a lob off the return when i play (i actually like to throw it in more than most, but i like lobbing...) and i guess being quick and covering it pretty easily has something to do with that. but trying volley balls of your shoelaces is pretty brutal, i wouldn't want to keep trying that all match long.