The ugly squatting backhand (WTA)

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Engelworks

Rookie
It's been awhile since I watched much tennis on TV, but I've had more time this summer and have caught a lot of the hard court season so far. One thing I've noticed that I don't recall seeing before is the prominence of this ugly squatting backhand ground-stroke among female pros. When an opponent hits with good pace toward the player, the player will plant BOTH of her feet, squat down so her butt almost touches the ground, and just "arm" the ball. I don't know if it's due to laziness or poor technique or if they are actually taught to hit that way. I've seen it happen on some forehands too, but it's far more prominent on the backhand, and I think it looks rather horrid aesthetically.

I've linked a point where it happened during the Kerber/Serena match last week. Kerber isn't the only player to do it, but she does it annoyingly often. I'm watching her match with Venus right now live and watching them is what spurred me to make this thread. As you can see, she has time to step into or around the shot, but instead she plants BOTH of her feet, squats down, and just swings her upper body:

http://youtu.be/Io7hN1r60Uc?t=6m46s

Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
 
C

courtking

Semi-Pro
Djokovic, Monfils "the super athlete" does it once awhile.. it's a great shot IMHO.. The server sometimes does not have enough time to react so they just bend low and twist the body.. great shot to have and practice..
 
kOaMaster

kOaMaster

Hall of Fame
well...it looks ugly and wrong. can't remember henin/clijsters or nadal/federer doing this. ever.
 
E

Engelworks

Rookie
I agree that Radwanska (especially) and Bouchard do it too. I don't mean to confuse it with a normal open-stance ground-stroke that both men and women use. With the shot I'm thinking of, the player will oddly lower her butt as she swings or sometimes even after contact is made. It looks really awkward and seems to me like a stubborn refusal to move her feet. I don't recall it used by any men except for a vague memory of Berdych doing it recently (floral shirt effect?). Also not to be confused with Djokovic's "drunken master" shuffle.
 
Fxanimator1

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Bad footwork and not in position to hit the ball. You never see Roger doing it because he's so good with controlling his racquet, he can flick the ball back from practically any position without the weird squat thing.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
Fxanimator1 said:
Bad footwork and not in position to hit the ball. You never see Roger doing it because he's so good with controlling his racquet, he can flick the ball back from practically any position without the weird squat thing.
Click to expand...

with a one hander it is much easier to hit a deep ball right at you because you can just drop the arm and block it in front of you.

with the twohander you Need to get out of the way to the side.
 
B

BeGreat

Rookie
if you exclude short skirts, there is NOTHING about the WTA that is watchable or elegant. it's all squeals and screams, overlayed on a third tier game.
 
ivan_the_terrible

ivan_the_terrible

Hall of Fame
Men raise their one leg (Nishikori/etc) and women squat. Reminds of you of another specie does this? :)

We're animals I tells ya, animals!
 
yellowoctopus

yellowoctopus

Professional
My humble observation: It appears that the player hitting this so-called 'squatting shot' are lowering her center of gravity and actually turning her hip into the contact zone (swiveling the feet) while minimizing the arm swing.

Without commenting on the appearance of this shot, I think that this is rather an effective technique for blocking back a really fast-paced shot from the opponent. Notice too that this technique also requires the player to catch the ball right after the bounce (on the rise), making it really efficient in using the pace of the incoming ball.

Angelique+Kerber+Internazionali+BNL+Italia+Kke3TEuulb1l.jpg
2014Jan01055210_459698535.jpg
 
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R

ringwraith

Rookie
Yeah it may not be aesthetically pleasing but it is effective for sure. They are lowering their center of gravity and presenting a more stable/heavier body to the incoming ball. Good to block back hard flat shots and redirect them, but obviously not going to generate much pace or spin on its own.
 
Avles

Avles

Hall of Fame
Who cares about the aesthetics? Seems like an effective solution to a problem (fast shots that land at your feet).

Bad footwork and not in position to hit the ball. You never see Roger doing it because he's so good with controlling his racquet, he can flick the ball back from practically any position without the weird squat thing.
Click to expand...

IMO it's not bad footwork any more than the open stance OHBH is bad footwork-- sometimes there isn't enough time for good footwork.

As far as Federer goes, there's always this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUvdfehJ7Cc

Not a squat I guess, but not exactly textbook.
 
Rock Strongo

Rock Strongo

Legend
If my future daughter hits those shots in a match, I will drag her off the court and force her to only hit slice on the practice court.
 
Bartelby

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I can't say that I've ever hit such a shot, but with a one handed backhand when I don't feel like I've time to move I just stand and deliver a two hander without squat.
 
P

Praetorian

Professional
And yet they are the pros, and the so called experts on this board, are the ones bashing them. I remember getting told to run laps when I hit open stance by my coach. I remember getting yelled at by me dad when I adopted what is now known as a semi-western grip, and was belting the ball with topspin. I almost quit tennis altogether when I was berated for using windshield wiper follow through. This was all in the late 80s. Now to be honest, while the squat isn't the most aesthetically looking stance, it does make sense. Technically, all they are doing is getting lower to hit in the ball in their effective hitting zone, without being pushed back. I guess nobody remembers when Lendl used to hit his backhand, with his left knee centimeters from the ground.
 
T

Tcbtennis

Hall of Fame
It is a great shot for the player who doesn't want to get pushed behind the baseline by a flat, hard and powerful shot. The players lower their center of gravity, plant their feet and absorb the pace of shot with their lower extremities. They have shortened backswings and can return the ball well with the pace of the incoming shot. You usually don't see it done by the stronger ball bashers but by the smaller players (like Radwanska) who would be pushed well behind the baseline defending all the time if they didn't do it.

And I think that the "couch coaches" who think that it's lazy footwork or think that its not aesthetically pleasing just don't understand it's usefulness for some players.
 
hugobosstachini

hugobosstachini

Professional
Tcbtennis said:
It is a great shot for the player who doesn't want to get pushed behind the baseline by a flat, hard and powerful shot. The players lower their center of gravity, plant their feet and absorb the pace of shot with their lower extremities. They have shortened backswings and can return the ball well with the pace of the incoming shot. You usually don't see it done by the stronger ball bashers but by the smaller players (like Radwanska) who would be pushed well behind the baseline defending all the time if they didn't do it.

And I think that the "couch coaches" who think that it's lazy footwork or think that its not aesthetically pleasing just don't understand it's usefulness for some players.
Click to expand...

The first part has truth but you broke everything in the latter. In tennis, plenty theories can coexist. For certain girls, it's lazy footwork just like it can also be a pure lack of racket handling or a combination of both. Girls rarely ever flick shots and will use their normal forehand/backhand strokes at all cost and there's a reason for that.

Indeed, one thing you've got right is that it's essentially a mentality thing. Girls generally rarely really want to start a point from behind even for defensive players like Radwanska or Wozniacki. Flicking a shot back into play is kind of being defensive and a girl will generally want to be offensive even from an offensive shot coming straight at her.

That's kind of normal because when you're playing Serena or Sharapova who generally look to destabilize you with the first strike (return of serve), if the second stroke is weak then you're taking many winners.
 
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C

captainbryce

Hall of Fame
Engelworks said:
It's been awhile since I watched much tennis on TV, but I've had more time this summer and have caught a lot of the hard court season so far. One thing I've noticed that I don't recall seeing before is the prominence of this ugly squatting backhand ground-stroke among female pros. When an opponent hits with good pace toward the player, the player will plant BOTH of her feet, squat down so her butt almost touches the ground, and just "arm" the ball. I don't know if it's due to laziness or poor technique or if they are actually taught to hit that way. I've seen it happen on some forehands too, but it's far more prominent on the backhand, and I think it looks rather horrid aesthetically.

Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
Click to expand...
The queen of this move is Agnieszka Radwanska. She does it in almost every match at some point and usually when she's playing one of the so-called "power players" (Williams, Sharapova, etc). On the men's side, Rafael Nadal has also been known to hit this shot on occasion. However, despite the unappealing aesthetic quality of the shot, I don't think it is due to laziness or poor technique. I don't think it's a shot that anyone "teaches", and the players that use it most likely learned it instinctively. Radwanska, and Kerber are excellent moves that are both fast and typically have good footwook. Technically speaking, I actually think it's a good (effective) shot to use to neutralize hard, deep, flat shots up the middle (when the ball is coming right to you and you have no angle to work with). Squatting down lowers your center of gravity, and allows you to impart topspin on a ball that keeps a very low trajectory (making it more likely that your shot will go in). Radwanska uses this stance intentionally for that reason.

From a visual/aesthetic standpoint, it always looks better when the player is fully extended in their shot, and still able to generate power, depth and spin on the shot. That's one of the reasons why a one-handed backhand looks better than than a two-handed backhand. And why a closed-stance two handed backhand looks better than an open-stance. And why an open-stance looks better than a squatting backhand. The closer you are, or the closer you have to be to the ball, the more awkward it looks when its being hit. However, there is a difference between aesthetics, and effectiveness. I'd take an effective squatting backhand over a beautiful, ineffective, one-handed backhand that breaks down during the match any day!
 
ace_pace

ace_pace

Rookie
Why is it so important that pros follow the 'textbook' technique? IMO the 'textbook' is simply a collection of previous idiosyncrasies that were deemed effective enough to be copied.
 
mellowyellow

mellowyellow

Legend
Its needed to fend off baseline balls directly at you. To properly hit and get weight behind the shot you need to get down to it, like any ball. This only happens when forced to half volley from the baseline. Its actually not lazy.... just the opposite. Notice that no player runs to a ball and squat hits?
 
Bender

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Looks hideous, but you gotta do it sometimes.

In the mens game, players tend to move out the way and flick the ball on the forehand side, or take golf swings on the backhand side. Rafa does both regularly against Djokovic's ROS.

Won't happen on the 1HBH usually since you can just drop the racquet and flick it over the net.

Also, it seems that women keep their feet anchored on the ground on their groundstrokes far more than men do.
 
E

Engelworks

Rookie
^ haha

I guess I'm glad if it has a legitimate purpose. But I still don't like the way it looks, and I feel better knowing I'm not the only one who is annoyed by it.
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Nope, not bothered by it at all. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder.
ace_pace said:
Why is it so important that pros follow the 'textbook' technique? IMO the 'textbook' is simply a collection of previous idiosyncrasies that were deemed effective enough to be copied.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Lazy footwork? Rubbish. If it is effective and the squatter can recovery quickly from this position, then why not? Others WTA & ATP players have their unconventional/creative positions or footwork. Clijsters and others would often employ the splits, Here is Kim with a footwork variation:

http://media.t-squat.com/uploads/2012/01/Kim-Clijsters-plays-a-ret-009.jpg

A couple of other creative positions:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/11/sports/11djokovic2/11djokovic2-blogSpan.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/22/1390387585458_lc_galleryImage_MELBOURNE_AUSTRALIA_JANUA.JPG
 
freelans

freelans

Rookie
Thing is 2hbh's are so stable that they can be hit without a lot of technique. Which is why technique is so lacking in many players.
But in the video, I think the player was overwhelmed by the speed of the shots and it was just a defensive block to get the ball back.
Also getting on your knees helps you to hit the ball at chest level which helps with fast low flat balls.
 
C

courtking

Semi-Pro
Praetorian said:
And yet they are the pros, and the so called experts on this board, are the ones bashing them. I remember getting told to run laps when I hit open stance by my coach. I remember getting yelled at by me dad when I adopted what is now known as a semi-western grip, and was belting the ball with topspin. I almost quit tennis altogether when I was berated for using windshield wiper follow through. This was all in the late 80s. Now to be honest, while the squat isn't the most aesthetically looking stance, it does make sense. Technically, all they are doing is getting lower to hit in the ball in their effective hitting zone, without being pushed back. I guess nobody remembers when Lendl used to hit his backhand, with his left knee centimeters from the ground.
Click to expand...

Well Said.. I actually train my son hit this particular shot.. Bending low and twist your core, hips to withstand a hard pace balls.. Players need to improvise and learn to deal with off balance shots.. Open stand Back hand is also one of the shots need to practice alot .. In real match, some shots you don't have enough time to set up your footwork..
 
T

tennis playa

Rookie
Engelworks said:
It's been awhile since I watched much tennis on TV, but I've had more time this summer and have caught a lot of the hard court season so far. One thing I've noticed that I don't recall seeing before is the prominence of this ugly squatting backhand ground-stroke among female pros. When an opponent hits with good pace toward the player, the player will plant BOTH of her feet, squat down so her butt almost touches the ground, and just "arm" the ball. I don't know if it's due to laziness or poor technique or if they are actually taught to hit that way. I've seen it happen on some forehands too, but it's far more prominent on the backhand, and I think it looks rather horrid aesthetically.

I've linked a point where it happened during the Kerber/Serena match last week. Kerber isn't the only player to do it, but she does it annoyingly often. I'm watching her match with Venus right now live and watching them is what spurred me to make this thread. As you can see, she has time to step into or around the shot, but instead she plants BOTH of her feet, squats down, and just swings her upper body:

http://youtu.be/Io7hN1r60Uc?t=6m46s

Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
Click to expand...

I'd say it was great improvisational skills more than anything else, you're not always going to be given the perfect ball to hit, so to stay in the point...you improvise.
 
mawashi

mawashi

Hall of Fame
Engelworks said:
It's been awhile since I watched much tennis on TV, but I've had more time this summer and have caught a lot of the hard court season so far. One thing I've noticed that I don't recall seeing before is the prominence of this ugly squatting backhand ground-stroke among female pros. When an opponent hits with good pace toward the player, the player will plant BOTH of her feet, squat down so her butt almost touches the ground, and just "arm" the ball. I don't know if it's due to laziness or poor technique or if they are actually taught to hit that way. I've seen it happen on some forehands too, but it's far more prominent on the backhand, and I think it looks rather horrid aesthetically.

I've linked a point where it happened during the Kerber/Serena match last week. Kerber isn't the only player to do it, but she does it annoyingly often. I'm watching her match with Venus right now live and watching them is what spurred me to make this thread. As you can see, she has time to step into or around the shot, but instead she plants BOTH of her feet, squats down, and just swings her upper body:

http://youtu.be/Io7hN1r60Uc?t=6m46s

Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
Click to expand...

Let's face it they can do it and you can't lol!
 
yellowoctopus

yellowoctopus

Professional
yellowoctopus said:
My humble observation: It appears that the player hitting this so-called 'squatting shot' are lowering her center of gravity and actually turning her hip into the contact zone (swiveling the feet) while minimizing the arm swing.

Without commenting on the appearance of this shot, I think that this is rather an effective technique for blocking back a really fast-paced shot from the opponent. Notice too that this technique also requires the player to catch the ball right after the bounce (on the rise), making it really efficient in using the pace of the incoming ball.
Click to expand...

Just made another observation while watching part of the match between Ms. William and Ms. Radwanska yesterday. I saw several instances where Ms. Radwanska used this technique to send the ball back so quickly that Ms. William could not catch up. I appreciate this shot more now simply because of its effectiveness against players with long groundstrokes pounding the balls at you. I hope it catches on more on the WTA tour.

fotonoticia_20140810223417_644.jpg


I do realize that I just narcissistically quoted myself above, but I did it to provide the continuation of my thoughts...really :)
 
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