Top 20 WTA Players in Open era

[clout]

As I’ve said before, I have little to no knowledge on anything pre-open era, so we’ll only evaluate OE. IMO:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Monica Seles
6. Margaret Court
7. Billie Jean King
8. Justine Henin
9. Venus Williams
10. Martina Hingis
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Maria Sharapova
13. Kim Clijsters
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
16. Hana Mandlikova
17. Jennifer Capriati
18. Angelique Kerber
19. Amelie Mauresmo
20. Victoria Azarenka

 

[skaj]

As I’ve said before, I have little to no knowledge on anything pre-open era, so we’ll only evaluate OE. IMO:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Monica Seles
6. Margaret Court
7. Billie Jean King
8. Justine Henin
9. Venus Williams
10. Martina Hingis
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Maria Sharapova
13. Kim Clijsters
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
16. Hana Mandlikova
17. Jennifer Capriati
18. Angelique Kerber
19. Amelie Mauresmo
20. Victoria Azarenka

But what is your criteria? Mine is how watchable they are:

1. Hingis
2. Hsieh
3. Date
4. Radwanska
5. Henin
6. Schiavone
7. Myskina
8. Mandlikova
9. Goolagong
10. Graf
11. Venus
12. Clijsters
13. Mauresmo
14. Navratilova
15. Zheng
16. Jankovic
17. Mattek-Sands
18. Kuznetsova
19. Cibulkova
20. Davenport

 

[KG1965]

OE

Open Era female?

 

[trownjeff]

I would not put Graf #1 just due to the Seles stabbing. And no I am not one of those crazies who think Seles would have won 30 slams and 10 Wimbledons and been the forever GOAT if she were not stabbed, hell no. I think Seles probably winds up in the 13-15 area and Graf is cut down to about 20 if Seles is not stabbed if I had to guess. However if she has 20 slams to 23 for Serena, nobody would be ranking Graf over Serena, which is already enough for me.

I have issues putting Serena at #1, but I am not sure who to put over her. Graf not for the reason I said. Navratilova and Evert are 5 behind in singles slams which is too much to put either ahead. Court the Australian Open was such an illegit slam back then it rules her out of being over Serena. So by default I guess I have to put Serena 1st, despite many of the issues I have with her career as well. Navratilova probably has the best case due to her doubles, but again 5 singles slams is a lot, and Serena has a great doubles career too (although nowhere near Navratilova) so even that would be a hard argument.

I guess my rankings for the first 12 or so go:

1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Navratilova (but has a better case to be over Serena than Graf despite that I rank her behind, could easily be put over Graf for her doubles too)
4. Court
5. Evert
6. King
7. Venus- over Seles and Henin due to doubles)
8. Henin
9. Seles
10. Hingis
11. Goolagong
12. Davenport- 4 YE#1 and doubles easily puts her over Clijsters or Sharapova

 

[trownjeff]

But what is your criteria? Mine is how watchable they are:

1. Hingis
2. Hsieh
3. Date
4. Radwanska
5. Henin
6. Schiavone
7. Myskina
8. Mandlikova
9. Goolagong
10. Graf
11. Venus
12. Clijsters
13. Mauresmo
14. Navratilova
15. Zheng
16. Jankovic
17. Mattek-Sands
18. Kuznetsova
19. Cibulkova
20. Davenport

Date was an eyesore to watch. She felt like watching an old nanny play tennis.

And Graf was utterly horrible to watch as far as aesthetics and I used to be a fan of hers. Cramming herself in awkward crunches in the corner just to hit a forehand over and over, and that super high ball toss, weird technique on almost all her shots.

 

[anarosevoli]

First five are quite close, but I see Graf on top because of Grand Slam, most number one weeks and greatest dominance (13 consecutive slam finals, winning 9)

1. Graf
2. Court
3. S. Williams
4. Navratilova
5. Evert
6. Seles
7. King
8. V. Williams
9. Henin
10. Goolagong
11. Hingis
12. Sharapova
13. Davenport
14. Clijsters
15. Sanchez Vicario
16. Mandlikova
17. Capriati
18. Sabatini
19. Kerber
20. Halep

 

[skaj]

Date was an eyesore to watch. She felt like watching an old nanny play tennis.

And Graf was utterly horrible to watch as far as aesthetics and I used to be a fan of hers. Cramming herself in awkward crunches in the corner just to hit a forehand over and over, and that super high ball toss, weird technique on almost all her shots.

Kimiko Date? Eyesore? Old nanny? She was quick, with perfect footwork, even at 40, intelligent, creative, coming up with great solutions, crafty, excellent touch, counterpunching winners from the baseline, off both sides, sharp volleys at the net, all-court player, ambidextrous... In other words a beautiful and exciting game, a joy to watch.

Graf's was maybe not among the most beautiful playing styles, but compare to the most players we have today it was gorgeous. And the way she moved around the court, her (overlooked)variety, that mean slice, also her competitiveness... it all made her game worth watching.

 

[trownjeff]

Kimiko Date? Eyesore? Old nanny? She was quick, with perfect footwork, even at 40, intelligent, creative, coming up with great solutions, crafty, excellent touch, counterpunching winners from the baseline, off both sides, sharp volleys at the net, all-court player, ambidextrous... In other words a beautiful and exciting game, a joy to watch.

Graf's was maybe not among the most beautiful playing styles, but compare to the most players we have today it was gorgeous. And the way she moved around the court, her (overlooked)variety, that mean slice, also her competitiveness... it all made her game worth watching.

Graf and Date both had very strange technique on nearly all their shots apart from Graf's slice backhand. No coaches would teach players to hit shots, even great ones like the Graf forehand and Graf serve, the way they execute them. Date doesn't even know the meaning of topspin, it is frankly unbelievable her game was as effective as it was.

 

[skaj]

Graf and Date both had very strange technique on nearly all their shots apart from Graf's slice backhand. No coaches would teach players to hit shots, even great ones like the Graf forehand and Graf serve, the way they execute them. Date doesn't even know the meaning of topspin, it is frankly unbelievable her game was as effective as it was.

Their technique was unorthodox, but that doesn't make them unwatchable. Quite the opposite actually, it's kind of refreshing.

Date was using the power of her opponents well, with those flat strokes. She was great at redirecting the ball, plus she wasn't just a baseliner.

 

[trownjeff]

I agree Seles could never be above Court or for that matter King. I am hoping and guessing the original poster though was factoring in Open Era achievements only when making the list though. I kind of have a problem with that though, I think if you include players in the Open Era you either factor in their whole career and not at all. If you can't going to factor in their whole career then don't mention them.

Sharapova's career is badly tainted by a long history of drug use, so I would have no problem with people ranking her outside the Top 20 if they wanted to. Ranking her is very subjective, except that the highest she could ever be is about 12th, but depending your stance on cheaters she could go a whole lot lower than that.

 

[trownjeff]

But what is your criteria? Mine is how watchable they are:

1. Hingis
2. Hsieh
3. Date
4. Radwanska
5. Henin
6. Schiavone
7. Myskina
8. Mandlikova
9. Goolagong
10. Graf
11. Venus
12. Clijsters
13. Mauresmo
14. Navratilova
15. Zheng
16. Jankovic
17. Mattek-Sands
18. Kuznetsova
19. Cibulkova
20. Davenport

Didn't Schiavone post at Tennis Warehouse at one point? Not that this should make a difference to ranking her, just funny if true.

Cibulkova and Mattek Sands are cool for her me for wearing those awesome high cut boots on court often, and risque outfits. I noticed that more than their games to be honest, although Mattek Sands was a shotmaker and agressive player who could cause headaches for the top players.

Myskina I found like the most boring player ever, so to each their own on her. And her whininess on court annoyed me, she looked like she didn't even care a lot of the time, and she had lots of mini tantrums when she wasn't winning or feeling right. She had a nice fluid game, and good groundstrokes, but just never exicted me.

 

[skaj]

Didn't Schiavone post at Tennis Warehouse at one point? Not that this should make a difference to ranking her, just funny if true.

Cibulkova and Mattek Sands are cool for her me for wearing those awesome high cut boots on court often, and risque outfits. I noticed that more than their games to be honest, although Mattek Sands was a shotmaker and agressive player who could cause headaches for the top players.

Myskina I found like the most boring player ever, so to each their own on her. And her whininess on court annoyed me, she looked like she didn't even care a lot of the time, and she had lots of mini tantrums when she wasn't winning or feeling right. She had a nice fluid game, and good groundstrokes, but just never exicted me.

There was a poster who claimed that another poster was Francesca Schiavone(it was obviously not her...), that is what I know. Just bizarre...

I loved Myskina's intelligence, mobility, skill. I loved watching her play, too bad she retired early.

 

[skaj]

I love Kimiko Date and it was tragic she retired when just hitting her late blooming peak in late 96. If she had avoided Hingis in the draw somehow she could have won a slam in 97 or 98 maybe had she continued.

She had a good chance against Graf in 1996 Wimbledon semis too. Her game suited grass, despite of a weak serve.

 

[trownjeff]

She had a good chance against Graf in 1996 Wimbledon semis too. Her game suited grass, despite of a weak serve.

She probably would have choked against Sanchez in the final and lost though. She had Sanchez on the ropes and beaten in the Olympic quarters, served for the match twice, and still lost 10-8 in the 3rd. It would be a super interesting final now without Graf there, but while Date game wise should be able to take it, I am pretty sure Sanchez would have wound up winning in 3 sets or something.

 

[skaj]

She probably would have choked against Sanchez in the final and lost though. She had Sanchez on the ropes and beaten in the Olympic quarters, served for the match twice, and still lost 10-8 in the 3rd. It would be a super interesting final now without Graf there, but while Date game wise should be able to take it, I am pretty sure Sanchez would have wound up winning in 3 sets or something.

Yes, that match in Atlanta she should have won.

 

[trownjeff]

Yes, that match in Atlanta she should have won.

My cousin was actually watching the tennis live that day. So lucky, there was an 8-6 thriller with Novotna winning over Seles and the 10-8 with Date and Sanchez. He saw both live in the same day. He told the Novotna-Seles was higher quality than the Date-Sanchez though which was pretty error prone and nervy, especialy by Date at the end.

 

[BTURNER]

I agree Seles could never be above Court or for that matter King. I am hoping and guessing the original poster though was factoring in Open Era achievements only when making the list though. I kind of have a problem with that though, I think if you include players in the Open Era you either factor in their whole career and not at all. If you can't going to factor in their whole career then don't mention them.

Sharapova's career is badly tainted by a long history of drug use, so would have no problem with people ranking her outside the Top 20 if they wanted to. Ranking her is very subjective, except that the highest she could ever be is about 12th, but depending your stance on cheaters she could go a whole lot lower than that.

I just don't see how anyone can get there. I am going to presume that all majors prior to 1968 are being discarded, that doubles does not count, and Maggie gets no credit for those Aussies and the poster tries to play some 'era' card then puffs up Monica because she was stabbed. You have a player in Court who won 11 majors post 1967 and reached another 2 finals and only failed to reach her QF in one of her last 22 majors played ( 3rd rd loss in 1971French) and has 4 QFs in that span. Monica won 9 majors. They won the same number of Aussies, and RG titles in those described parameters. But Margaret won Wimbledon against her great rival King and got in another final, and won one more Open than Monica even in the truncated post 1967 results. On the other side of the coin eles has a lot more mediocre results around her wins than Court does, a lot more QF losses per each QF win, than Margaret does outside her glory patch 1991-1993

 

[PDJ]

Their technique was unorthodox, but that doesn't make them unwatchable. Quite the opposite actually, it's kind of refreshing.

Date was using the power of her opponents well, with those flat strokes. She was great at redirecting the ball, plus she wasn't just a baseliner.

Lest we forget Date was naturally left handed but was discouraged from playing such.
I loved watching her play.
I like watching any tennis player that has more than one strategy. She was also, rarely, if ever, less than a great sport on court.

My personal Top Five/six, for enjoyment:
Evert
Clijsters
Goolagong-Cawley
Bueno (never saw her play, but she was a friend l used to hit with regularly when she was over for Wimbledon)
Hsieh/Radwanska

Top 5 in Open Era
Evert
Graf
Navratilova
Court
Williams

Top Five Brits (personal)
Wade
Barker
Durie
Croft
Watson

Top 5 Drama Queens (current)
S. Williams
Muguruza
Ostapenkoflop
Coco
Cornet (diva with a sense of humour)

Can't stand the screamers/grunters but especially those that scream when hitting a drop shot.

Well that was fun.

 

[boredone3456]

1. Navratilova/Graf (lately I've really leaned toward co-ranking them as GOAT anyway)
3. Serena
4. Evert
5. Court
6. Seles
7. King
8. Goolagong - Crap on her all you want for only winning AO's, from 1971 through 1977 she entered 21 majors, made 17 finals and won 6. In 1971, 1975 and 1976 she made the finals of every major she played. Most of her finals losses were the all time greats. If she had managed to beat Evert in one of the USO Finals I think she would have a lot more respect handed to her than she gets.
9. Henin
10. Venus
11. Hingis
12. Mandlikova
13. Sharapova
14. Clijsters
15. Davenport
16. Vicario
17. Austin - Surprised no one has mentioned her, the only one to break a period of Evert/Navratilova dominance at the top.
18. Capriati
19. Kerber
20. Azarenka

The last 2 spots were a toss up between the two I picked plus Halep, Sabatini and Muguruza. In the end Kerber has 3 majors and I think at her absolute best Azarenka was more solid than the other 3.

 

[Pitti]

1. M. Navratilova (18 singles GS + 31 doubles GS + 332 weeks as #1).
...2. S. Graf (22 singles GS + 1 doubles GS + 377 weeks as #1)
...2. S. Williams (23 singles GS + 14 doubles GS + 319 weeks as #1) --> (Provisional)
..............
The rest

 

[legrandLeconte]

1. Navratilova
2. Graff
3. King
4. Goolagong
5. Evert
6. Mandlikova
7. Henin
8. Serena
9. Novotna
10. Court
11. Kvitova
12. Davenport
13. Mauresmo
14. Venus
15. Martinez
16. Li
17. Osaka
18. Sabatini
19. Pierce
20. Barty

 

[legrandLeconte]

Surprised to see numerous here putting Navratilova 1st. Not that I find that terrible, but it isn't the consensus opinion in the real world. Most have Graf or Serena in the real world, so interesting to see a unique perspective to this board it seems.

IMO the current "consesus opinion" is basad in underestimate the classic play of serve and volley. Those we have seen tennis of differents times value more fairly players
how Navratilova, Sampras and others. If you like the serve/volley you won't mind "the real world". A cordial greeting.

 

[aliceinpains]

1. Court.....won more titles than any other player. And it's not even close...won the grand slam in 1970
2. Graf....won the golden slam- grand slam plus gold medal in 1988

 

[Enceladus]

1. Court.....won more titles than any other player.

Court has most GS titles, but doesn't has most WTA titles. Navratilova has most WTA titles, she hold a record in number of singles titles - 167, a record in number of doubles titles - 177 and an absolute record WTA - 354.

 

[PDJ]

Actually Court does have a record 199 singles too. Some people who did very deep research on tennisforum.com figured that out and it was confirmed by multiple (not Court fans either). I do not know her total titles (singles and doubles) total though. Remember stats for those who didn't play in the Open Era are not properly documented on the WTA site and other places usually.

And l think her win/loss % is pretty good to.
And despite all this, she still has to go cap in hand to ask TA to honour the anniversary of her GS of 1970. And to pay for her travel etc.
I'm guessing she won't be flying Qantas ....

 

[PDJ]

Well everyone knows why that is. Whether TPTB handle her views on you know correctly is another matter of debate. I am split, I don't agree with her views at all of course, but you could argue she is also entitled them.

I would argue her views are built on her success as a tennis champion. Without this platform she might make local press.
But not reach the global market she does.
It doesn't appear to make her happy- she looks as miserable as sin (pun intended) in most published photos.

 

[captainajitsparrow]

As I’ve said before, I have little to no knowledge on anything pre-open era, so we’ll only evaluate OE. IMO:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Chris Evert
5. Monica Seles
6. Margaret Court
7. Billie Jean King
8. Justine Henin
9. Venus Williams
10. Martina Hingis
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Maria Sharapova
13. Kim Clijsters
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
16. Hana Mandlikova
17. Jennifer Capriati
18. Angelique Kerber
19. Amelie Mauresmo
20. Victoria Azarenka

My list would be

1. Graf
2. Court
3. Navratilova
4. Evert
5. Serena
6. Seles
7.Billie Jean King
8. Hingis
9. Henin
10. Venus
11. Goolagong
12. Sharapova
13. Clijsters
14. Vicario
15. Davenport


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6000 using Tapatalk

 

[Enceladus]

Actually Court does have a record 199 singles too. Some people who did very deep research on tennisforum.com figured that out and it was confirmed by multiple (not Court fans either). I do not know her total titles (singles and doubles) total though. Remember stats for those who didn't play in the Open Era are not properly documented on the WTA site and other places usually.

Big part of these titles has value an exhibition event. Court didn't gain them in tournaments that were / are part of the WTA Tour or previous circuits (Virginia Slims, Avon Series, Colgate Series). I'm sorry, but Djokovic or Nadal also are not counting Abu Dhabi titles into their official statistics, because this tournament is not part of the ATP Tour. Court won 92 titles on the WTA Tour, it ranks 4th in the historic WTA Tour ranking.

 

[Enceladus]

These people did very deep research, and they all came to the 199. I am pretty sure they know not to count official exhibition events.

I don't think Court is the GOAT so it really makes no difference to me, but I am pretty sure factually she has 199 WTA singles titles.

These people don't differentiate between sanctioned and non-sanctioned tournaments, they throw everything in one bag. Even today's tennis players don't count in the official statistics all the titles, they have achieved. Challenges don't count towards official male players statistics, also ITF tournaments are not included in the number of female players titles. They are lower level tournaments.

The issue of sanctioned and non-sanctioned tournaments doesn't just concern Court. Jimmy Connors is the record holder of ATP singles titles with 109 titles, but he won in his career another 40 tournaments, only this 40 titles are not recognized, thus non-sanctioned.

Who has won the most singles tennis titles?

Which players have won the most titles in professional tennis history?

www.sportingnews.com

Tennis All-Time Records: Singles, Doubles, and Grand Slams

The all-time tennis records—for singles, doubles, and Grand Slams—include some achievements so impressive they may never be equaled.

www.liveabout.com

Here are links that confirm that Navratilova is the record holder with 167 WTA singles titles and also the absolute WTA record holder.

 

[aliceinpains]

According to wiki court has the most singles titles in history.

 

[skaj]

1. Court.....won more titles than any other player. And it's not even close...won the grand slam in 1970
2. Graf....won the golden slam- grand slam plus gold medal in 1988

Well, Serena also has a golden slam, only not in a calendar year. Plus more majors.

 

[aliceinpains]

Well, Serena also has a golden slam, only not in a calendar year. Plus more majors.

It's not a grand or golden slam if it's not done in the same year. It's much more difficult to achieve all four slams in the same year because of the pressure. Court has won something like 62 slams.

 

[boredone3456]

These people don't differentiate between sanctioned and non-sanctioned tournaments, they throw everything in one bag. Even today's tennis players don't count in the official statistics all the titles, they have achieved. Challenges don't count towards official male players statistics, also ITF tournaments are not included in the number of female players titles. They are lower level tournaments.

The issue of sanctioned and non-sanctioned tournaments doesn't just concern Court. Jimmy Connors is the record holder of ATP singles titles with 109 titles, but he won in his career another 40 tournaments, only this 40 titles are not recognized, thus non-sanctioned.

Who has won the most singles tennis titles?

Which players have won the most titles in professional tennis history?

www.sportingnews.com

Tennis All-Time Records: Singles, Doubles, and Grand Slams

The all-time tennis records—for singles, doubles, and Grand Slams—include some achievements so impressive they may never be equaled.

www.liveabout.com

Here are links that confirm that Navratilova is the record holder with 167 WTA singles titles and also the absolute WTA record holder.

I believe that Link doesn't count any of Court's titles before the start of the Open Era, when Court when into several periods of partial retirement to have all of her children. Other players who bridge the gap between Open Era/Pre Open Era are also penalized. Billie Jean King won like 130 singles titles in her career, yet she is not included in that list either. Her absence would be explained by the fact that she only won 65 titles or something like that during the open era. Goolagong won 86 Career titles in singles, however only like 70 of them were in the open era. If that list was entirely reflective both of them should be there and Serena would not be...however in the "Open Era" both won less titles than Serena.

Pre Open Era stats are difficult because record keeping could be spotty. Some places I have seen have Court with a winning % of 91...more than Evert...some have her at 88...its muddy. I would not say that site is absolute however in confirming anything

 

[boredone3456]

According to wiki court has the most singles titles in history.

True, many sites that cite records use only Open Era statistics, wiki actually makes an effort to be all encompassing. However the issue with Court is some all over the place record keeping. I don't feel like Tennis Australia was massively organized in those days outside of their international teams and the AO. I also think several of her tournaments would fall under the category of Expo's today, like 4 player tournaments that she won. Jimmy Connors befalls that same fate in the "official" count. I've seen some sites list Court with over 200 titles, others with like...160...its just sort of crazy all depending on who is interpreting what a "title" is, especially with the fact she bridged the Open and Pre Open Era.

 

[Enceladus]

I believe that Link doesn't count any of Court's titles before the start of the Open Era, when Court when into several periods of partial retirement to have all of her children. Other players who bridge the gap between Open Era/Pre Open Era are also penalized. Billie Jean King won like 130 singles titles in her career, yet she is not included in that list either. Her absence would be explained by the fact that she only won 65 titles or something like that during the open era. Goolagong won 86 Career titles in singles, however only like 70 of them were in the open era. If that list was entirely reflective both of them should be there and Serena would not be...however in the "Open Era" both won less titles than Serena.

Pre Open Era stats are difficult because record keeping could be spotty. Some places I have seen have Court with a winning % of 91...more than Evert...some have her at 88...its muddy. I would not say that site is absolute however in confirming anything

Counting all titles regardless of the question of sanctioned tournaments creates chaos in the statistics. You wrote it yourself in post # 44 - what should be counted as a title and what not? Should the challenges, ITF tournaments be counted? Exhibition events also? How many titles did Federer win, when besides 103 ATP titles won challenger, ITF tournaments and exhibition events?

ATP & WTA have a set limit of what to count as a sanctioned tournament and what not. And this should be respected by amateur statisticians at tennis forums, IMO.

 

[boredone3456]

Counting all titles regardless of the question of sanctioned tournaments creates chaos in the statistics. You wrote it yourself in post # 44 - what should be counted as a title and what not? Should the challenges, ITF tournaments be counted? Exhibition events also? How many titles did Federer win, when besides 103 ATP titles won challenger, ITF tournaments and exhibition events?

ATP & WTA have a set limit of what to count as a sanctioned tournament and what not. And this should be respected by amateur statisticians at tennis forums, IMO.

But you cannot site as a absolute source something that cuts off prior to the year 1968 entirely...it removes whole generations of players from the discussion

 

[skaj]

It's not a grand or golden slam if it's not done in the same year. It's much more difficult to achieve all four slams in the same year because of the pressure. Court has won something like 62 slams.

Then it's a calendar golden slam in Graf's case.

Which pressure?

 

[Enceladus]

But you cannot site as a absolute source something that cuts off prior to the year 1968 entirely...it removes whole generations of players from the discussion

It is a cruel, but there is no more objective way than the statistics of titles from sanctioned tournaments (ATP/WTA).

 

[Vamos Rafa Nadal]

Martina Navratilova is the #1 female tennis player of all time and it's for a simple reason: I do not discount her amazing doubles record, added onto her amazing singles record!

 

[BTURNER]

Martina Navratilova is the #1 female tennis player of all time and it's for a simple reason: I do not discount her amazing doubles record, added onto her amazing singles record!

I have no qualms about deciding to give credit for doubles and mixed, but you have to totally revamp your list. Depending on exactly how much credit you give a doubles or mixed doubles title compared to a singles title, all of the sudden players like King and Court and Louise Brough, Margaret Dupont sail on up and players like Graf , Seles, Dorothea Lambert Chambers and Evert move further down.