Trying Serve Doc's "Pro Grip" on serve. But grip keeps shifting back to Continental.

[Better_Call_Raul]

Serve Doc describes the "Pro Grip" which is index knuckle on bevel two and heel pad on bevel one. A (2, 1) grip.

Continental grip is index knuckle and heelpad on bevel two. A (2,2) grip.

When I try this Pro Grip, it keeps shifting back towards Continental grip during the service motion. To be clear, the Continental grip can work but I want to experiment with Pro Grip.

@Serve Doc
What is the key to not letting the grip shift? Focus more on exaggerating the pronation and internal shoulder rotation?

 

[Purestriker]

Serve Doc describes the "Pro Grip" which is index knuckle on bevel two and heel pad on bevel one. A (2, 1) grip.

Continental grip is index knuckle and heelpad on bevel two. A (2,2) grip.

When I try this Pro Grip, it keeps shifting back towards Continental grip during the service motion. To be clear, the Continental grip can work but I want to experiment with Pro Grip.

What is the key to not letting the grip shift? Focus more on rapid pronation and internal shoulder rotation?

Continental grip is the correct grip for serving. Don't know who Pat is, but I doubt they are a doctor or great at serving.

 

[Curious]

Tom had covered this nicely, too.

 

[Shroud]

Continental grip is the correct grip for serving. Don't know who Pat is, but I doubt they are a doctor or great at serving

Yep that is true.

 

[Shroud]

Tom had covered this nicely, too.

I have had enough of your pro astrology/ anti US rhetoric!!

 

[Curious]

I have had enough of your pro astrology/ anti US rhetoric!!

It’s all Tom’s fault!

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Tom had covered this nicely, too.

Do most players find it more difficult to serve flat with this Pro Grip?

When I shadow swing there is no problem with pronation and grip does not shift. When I toss and swing (not even trying to hit flat) the heelpad keeps shifting from bevel 1 to bevel 2... But I've only been trying it for few days. Been using Continental for years. Maybe I just need more reps with this new grip. But it is weird that it keeps shifting.

 

[Shroud]

Do most players find it more difficult to serve flat with this Pro Grip?

When I shadow swing there is no problem with pronation and grip does not shift. When I toss and swing (not even trying to hit flat) the heelpad keeps shifting from bevel 1 to bevel 2... But I've only been trying it for few days. Been using Continental for years. Maybe I just need more reps with this new grip. But it is weird that it keeps shifting.

Serve doctor mentions this could happen in the take back so be careful then. You are probably right about the muscle memory.

 

[Curious]

Do most players find it more difficult to serve flat with this Pro Grip?

When I shadow swing there is no problem with pronation and grip does not shift. When I toss and swing (not even trying to hit flat) the heelpad keeps shifting from bevel 1 to bevel 2... But I've only been trying it for few days. Been using Continental for years. Maybe I just need more reps with this new grip. But it is weird that it keeps shifting.

Just don't let it shift. Geez!

 

[travlerajm]

Continental grip is the correct grip for serving. Don't know who Pat is, but I doubt they are a doctor or great at serving.

He is a poster on this forum. He’s worked directly with many top atp players as a serve consultant.

Pat is spot on with his grip advice. Most rec players have a ‘weak’ continental serve grip (slightly toward eastern fh). Most elite atp servers have a ‘strong’ continental (aka pro grip, slightly toward the eastern bh).

 

[Curious]

He is a poster on this forum. He’s worked directly with many top atp players as a serve consultant.

Pat is spot on with his grip advice. Most rec players have a ‘weak’ continental serve grip (slightly toward eastern fh). Most elite atp servers have a ‘strong’ continental (aka pro grip, slightly toward the eastern bh).

The point here is the racket hand alignment that’s more clearly explained in Tom’s videos above, not how much it’s turned towards backhand grip. You’ve missed the main point?

 

[travlerajm]

The point here is the racket hand alignment that’s more clearly explained in Tom’s videos above, not how much it’s turned towards backhand grip. You’ve missed the main point?

But that’s not really Pat’s point in his video. If you’re thinking about knuckles and heel of palm on different bevels, then you’re overthinking things.

 

[Curious]

But that’s not really Pat’s point in his video.

I think it is. See how he emphasises the sharp racket forearm angle created that way? Exactly Tom’s point as well.

 

[Curious]

. If you’re thinking about knuckles and heel of palm on different bevels, then you’re overthinking things.

Watch Tom’s videos again, more carefully.

 

[travlerajm]

Watch Tom’s videos again, more carefully.

I don’t agree with Tom’s video.

If you grab the racquet with the palm pressed against bevel 2 (full conti, aka pro grip) the base knuckle and heel pad naturally end up in right spots. And pronation comes naturally.

Problem for many players is that they think they are in conti when they are actually closer to Aussie grip, so it’s less natural to hit a kick serve with over the top spin.

See Brooksby for example. Pro player with rec player grip.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Serve doctor mentions this could happen in the take back so be careful then. You are probably right about the muscle memory.

Serve Doc also talks about racquet alignment at contact with Pro Grip vs Continenral Grip.
Pro Grip will give you the correct angle (racquet inside the forearm at contact).
Continental grip will not give you the ideal angle (racquet more in line with forearm at contact).

Not clear why this would be the case. I think you can have the correct forearm to racquet angle at contact even with the Continental grip.
Or a wrong forearm to racquet angle ar angle with Continental grip. Or wrong forearm to racquet angle at contact with Pro Grip
Forearm to racquet angle at contact are separate issues that are independent of the grip.

 

[Curious]

I don’t agree with Tom’s video.

If you grab the racquet with the palm pressed against bevel 2 (full conti, aka pro grip) the base knuckle and heel pad naturally end up in right spots. And pronation comes naturally.

Problem for many players is that they think they are in conti when they are actually closer to Aussie grip, so it’s less natural to hit a kick serve with over the top spin.

See Brooksby for example. Pro player with rec player grip.

Tom is advocating a hammer grip instead of a pistol grip pretty much. He thinks that gives you better racket forearm angle, better leverage. And that’s exactly what Pat explains in his video, isn’t it?
@Serve Doc

 

[travlerajm]

Tom is advocating a hammer grip instead of a pistol grip pretty much. He thinks that gives you better racket forearm angle, better leverage. And that’s exactly what Pat explains in his video, isn’t it?
@Serve Doc

I think it’s simpler than that.

When first learned how to serve, in high school. I tended to slip over toward the Aussie grip sometimes. When I was having a tough serving day (and back then my whole game was based around my serve because I was S&V both serves every point), I would have to remind myself to shift around further (stronger spin grip), and then suddenly my % would go up and I could serve more confidently with my serve diving downward more into the box.

It took a few years of serving for the “pro grip” to feel completely natural.

You know you’re doing it right if your racquet face looks like this:

 

[Curious]

I think it’s simpler than that.

When first learned how to serve, in high school. I tended to slip over toward the Aussie grip sometimes. When I was having a tough serving day (and back then my whole game was based around my serve because I was S&V both serves every point), I would have to remind myself to shift around further (stronger spin grip), and then suddenly my % would go up and I could serve more confidently with my serve diving downward more into the box.

It took a few years of serving for the “pro grip” to feel completely natural.

You know you’re doing it right if your racquet face looks like this:

That’s just another thing, similar to most people preferring semi western fh grip because it gives them more top spin hence more safety. But you’re missing the point in what Pat and Tom are explaining.

 

[Curious]

Serve Doc also talks about racquet alignment at contact with Pro Grip vs Continenral Grip.
Pro Grip will give you the correct angle (racquet inside the forearm at contact).
Continental grip will not give you the ideal angle (racquet more in line with forearm at contact).

Not clear why this would be the case. I think you can have the correct forearm to racquet angle at contact even with the Continental grip.
Or a wrong forearm to racquet angle ar angle with Continental grip. Or wrong forearm to racquet angle at contact with Pro Grip
Forearm to racquet angle at contact are separate issues that are independent of the grip.

The whole idea is how the racket handle is sitting in your hand. To get the right one ( pic 1, not 2) for optimal leverage, when index knuckle is on bevel 2, the heel pad needs to be on bevel 1. So the classic 2-2 doesn’t work. If you want heel pad to be on bevel 2 your index knuckle needs to shift to 2.5. That’s how it is anatomically.

https://imgur.com/a/rw495OG

https://imgur.com/a/BIESurI

 

[travlerajm]

That’s just another thing, similar to most people preferring semi western fh grip because it gives them more top spin hence more safety. But you’re missing the point in what Pat and Tom are explaining.

The point is to grip the racquet like this:

And not like this:

 

[Curious]

The point is to grip the racquet like this:

And not like this:

I’m done.

 

[travlerajm]

I’m done.

Another view of how not to do it:

 

[TennisCJC]

Continental grip is the correct grip for serving. Don't know who Pat is, but I doubt they are a doctor or great at serving.

"Pat" is the serve coach at IMG (old Nick Bollettieri) academy. Pat has coach future ATP, WTA and college players and is an excellent coach.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

The whole idea is how the racket handle is sitting in your hand. To get the right one ( pic 1, not 2) for optimal leverage, when index knuckle is on bevel 2, the heel pad needs to be on bevel 1. So the classic 2-2 doesn’t work. If you want heel pad to be on bevel 2 your index knuckle needs to shift to 2.5. That’s how it is anatomically.

Much prefer the heelpad as a starting reference point, as index knuckle position is bit confusing.

I like Tom's video description of "Chopper grip". The chopping motion definitely feels much more stable with heel pad on bevel one. Very clear difference.
Once you establish the heelpad position on bevel one, the index knuckle tends to naturally wind up on bevel two.
That is the proper (1,2) Pro Grip (or chopper grip) that Serve Doc is talking about. Great.

Bit confused on classic (2,2) grip. Are you saying (2,2) is anatomically impossible? i.e. Once you establish heelpad position on bevel two, index knuckle will need to shift to bevel 2.5 due to anatomical necessity?

Are you saying the Continental (2,2) grip can never achieve the proper angle at contact (racquet is inside the forearm at contact rather than roughly in line)?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Continental grip is the correct grip for serving. Don't know who Pat is, but I doubt they are a doctor or great at serving.

Are you kidding? Not sure.

Pat Dougherty is a well-respected coach with the IMG Academy (for nearly 40 years).

The Pro Grip he speaks of is a common version of the Continental grip. Many sources will only specify the location of the base index knuckle. For all Conti grips, this is bevel 2.

Quite a few sources will also specify the location of the heel pad, a secondary reference. Some of those sources also put the heel pad on bevel 2. This is commonly used for volleys (and can also be used for serves) and is sometimes referred to as a 2-2 Continental grip.

Quite a few other sources put the heel pad on bevel 1 for the Conti grip. This is sometimes known as the 2-1 Continental (or the Pro grip).

 

[Curious]

Bit confused on classic (2,2) grip. Are you saying (2,2) is anatomically impossible? i.e. Once you establish heelpad position on bevel two, index knuckle will need to shift to bevel 2.5 due to anatomical necessity?

Are you saying the Continental (2,2) grip can never achieve the proper angle at contact (racquet is inside the forearm at contact rather than roughly in line)?

Yes. You can put both on bevel 2 but only with a pistol grip ie fingers spread more, which doesn’t give you the angle Tom is talking about.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Much prefer the heelpad as a starting reference point, as index knuckle position is bit confusing.

I like Tom's video description of "Chopper grip". The chopping motion feels much more stable with heel pad on bevel one. Very clear difference.
Once you establish the heelpad position on bevel one, the index knuckle tends to naturally wind up on bevel two.
That is the proper (1,2) Pro Grip (or chopper grip) that Serve Doc is talking about. Great.

Bit confused on classic (2,2) grip. Are you saying (2,2) is anatomically impossible? i.e. Once you establish heelpad position on bevel two, index knuckle will need to shift to bevel 2.5 due to anatomical necessity?

Are you saying the Continental (2,2) grip can never achieve the proper angle at contact (racquet is inside the forearm at contact rather than roughly in line)?

The base index knuckle is always considered the primary reference for grip descriptions, not the heel pad. The base index knuckle location normally gives the grip it's name. The heel pad location, a secondary reference, can vary a bit for implementations. These variants sometimes occur due to the size of the hand relative to the size of the racket grip. But often the variants are a matter of personal preference.

The 2-2 grip will often be used for volleys -- especially for low and medium high volleys. It can also be used for serves. The 2-1 version of the Conti grip is often used for serves. Not sure if many, if any, use it for volleys. No one refers to this as a 1-2 grip

 

[Curious]

The base index knuckle is always considered the primary reference for grip descriptions, not the heel pad. The base index knuckle location normally gives the grip it's name. The heel pad location, a secondary reference, can vary a bit for implementations. These variants sometimes occur due to the size of the hand relative to the size of the racket grip. But often the variants are a matter of personal preference.

Both Pat and Tom are specifically talking about racket to forearm angle for leverage and easier pronation. And grip’s relevance to that. Thoughts on that?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

The base index knuckle is always considered the primary reference for grip descriptions, not the heel pad.

In the Serve Doc video, he says only the (2,1) grip will achieve the proper forearm to racquet angle at contact.
Wherein the racquet is inside (medial) to the forearm at contact.
He says the (2,2) grip will have the racquet roughly in line with forearm. Incorrect. Or at least not ideal.

Do you agree? Or is either grip capable of achieving a proper forearm to racquet angle at contact?

Curious says (2,2) grip can not achieve the angle at contact that Serve Doc is looking for.

The coaching videos above mention that many/most club players have heelpad on bevel two instead of bevel one. Given that many are gripping to wrong, the heelpad might be the more useful reference.
I find that placing the heelpad on bevel one is the easier more useful reference. The index knuckle will then to tend to naturally go to bevel two.
Hard to go wrong once you establish the heelpad position on bevel one.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

In the Serve Doc video, he says only the (2,1) grip will achieve the proper forearm to racquet angle at contact.
The racquet is inside the forearm at contact.
He says the (2,2) grip will have the racquet roughly in line with forearm. Incorrect. Or at least not ideal.

Do you agree? Or is either grip capable of achieving a proper forearm to racquet angle at contact?

Curious says (2,2) grip can not achieve the angle at contact that Serve Doc is looking for.

@Curious

Yeah, the 2-2 Conti grip has the racket as more an extension of the arm. For me that made it more suitable for volleys (esp low & medium volleys).

For 1st serves, I was usually pretty close to a 2-2 Conti. For 2nd serves, however, I would often alter the grip. I had pretty decent results with with the 2-1 Conti (or a sometimes a 2-1.5 Conti). Other times, for different spin angles / effects, I would shift the base index knuckle so that I was closer to an EBh grip for 2nd serves.

I'd suggest some experimentation, if it suits your game, to see what worx best for you

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Yeah, the 2-2 Conti grip has the racket as more an extension of the arm. For me that made it more suitable for volleys (esp low & medium volleys).

For 1st serves, I was usually pretty close to a 2-2 Conti. For 2nd serves, however, I would often alter the grip. I had pretty decent results with with the 2-1 Conti (or a sometimes a 2-1.5 Conti).

In the video, Serve Doc seems to be pretty particular on the (2,1) for a big first serve. But that may be his personal preference.
It is also remarkable how he picks up the student's subtle grip change in real time...

Still suspect that (2,2) can achieve the proper contact angle he is looking for. Do not see why the (2,2) grip should preclude the racquet being inside the forearm at contact.

 

[Shroud]

The base index knuckle is always considered the primary reference for grip descriptions, not the heel pad. The base index knuckle location normally gives the grip it's name. The heel pad location, a secondary reference, can vary a bit for implementations. These variants sometimes occur due to the size of the hand relative to the size of the racket grip. But often the variants are a matter of personal preference.

The 2-2 grip will often be used for volleys -- especially for low and medium high volleys. It can also be used for serves. The 2-1 version of the Conti grip is often used for serves. Not sure if many, if any, use it for volleys. No one refers to this as a 1-2 grip

I use it for volleys myself because I serve with the pro grip and am lazy. Pretty sure I slice with that grip too. Maybe that is why my slice is wristy?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I use it for volleys myself because I serve with the pro grip and am lazy. Pretty sure I slice with that grip too. Maybe that is why my slice is wristy?

I can’t imagine trying to hit high volleys with a Pro grip, especially on the Fh side. I tend to go the other direction for high volleys — the Aussie grip.

 

[GAS]

Serve doc is right /thread

 

[Curious]

Seems like serve doc doesn’t want to be in this discussion.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Seems like serve doc doesn’t want to be in this discussion.

Was this subject also brought up in the thread started by the Serve Doc? Looks like the last post in that thread was just over a month ago. Hope he returns soon.

 

[Curious]

Was this subject also brought up in the thread started by the Serve Doc? Looks like the last post in that thread was just over a month ago. Hope he returns soon.

He was online a few hours ago reading this thread.

 

[nyta2]

Problem for many players is that they think they are in conti when they are actually closer to Aussie grip, so it’s less natural to hit a kick serve with over the top spin.

guilty

 

[Serve Doc]

The "Pro grip" is simply the full continental grip with the palm across the top bevel of grip as well as the heel positioned to the backhand edge of top bevel and can be even adjusted more towards the backhand side when trying to amp up spin rate and reduce depth for better strikes up the sidelines...I didn't chime in before because it seemed you guys were working it out without me interjecting.

 

[Shroud]

I can’t imagine trying to hit high volleys with a Pro grip, especially on the Fh side. I tend to go the other direction for high volleys — the Aussie grip.

I can't imagine switching grips on the volley but I know good players do. That said I don't see the issue myself. Best I don't think about it

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

The "Pro grip" is simply the full continental grip with the palm across the top bevel of grip as well as the heel positioned to the backhand edge of top bevel and can be even adjusted more towards the backhand side when trying to amp up spin rate and reduce depth for better strikes up the sidelines...I didn't chime in before because it seemed you guys were working it out without me interjecting.

Will try this out. I think the "Pro Grip" can be used for flat bombs and for slice. For all serves!

And what is the key to getting the slice serve to land short and wide on the Deuce?
Would backhand grip make this easier than Pro Grip?

 

[Shroud]

Will try this out. I think the "Pro Grip" can be used for flat bombs and for slice. For all serves!

And what is the key to getting the slice serve to land short and wide on the Deuce?
Would backhand grip make this easier than Pro Grip?

a true eastern bh grip is hard to serve with ime especially if its the handlebar one

 

[Curious]

Pat in his original video explains and advocates the exact same thing Tom talks about in the videos I posted ie the handle position in the hand to create a sharper angle between racket and forearm both for leverage and also that ‘otherwise you get jammed in the wrist and can’t pronate properly’, again the same thing Tom mentions. Now Pat talks about something else : turning the grip more towards backhand side ( @travlerajm ), but there’s no guarantee of getting that angle with a more backhand grip. The only way is to hold the racket more like a hammer rather than a pistol regardless of how much the grip type is more backhand, continental or eastern fh.

 

[Serve Doc]

The spin swing direction adjustment in combo with grip creates the spin. With a slight grip adjustment towards backhand side, it enhances spin thus reducing travel distance of the ball. Like a golfer choosing a sand wedge vs an 8 iron to reduce distance and enhance spin. The angle of the face of the racquet is altered because of the grip and that determines the direction of the ball as you don't swing towards your desired target. You strictly focus on spinning upward on the ball when it comes to spin production and not direction of target

 

[Shroud]

Pat in his original video explains and advocates the exact same thing Tom talks about in the videos I posted ie the handle position in the hand to create a sharper angle between racket and forearm both for leverage and also that ‘otherwise you get jammed in the wrist and can’t pronate properly’, again the same thing Tom mentions. Now Pat talks about something else : turning the grip more towards backhand side ( @travlerajm ), but there’s no guarantee of getting that angle with a more backhand grip. The only way is to hold the racket more like a hammer rather than a pistol regardless of how much the grip type is more backhand, continental or eastern fh.

If only fed knew about the hammer, he could have had a much better serve:

And Roddick

And Becker:

and Isner:

 

[Curious]

If only fed knew about the hammer, he could have had a much better serve:

And Roddick

And Becker:

and Isner:

It doesn’t have to be pure hammer grip. The important thing is where the racket handle is lined up in your palm. 1 is wrong, 2 is correct.
If you don’t get it you’re missing the whole point that both Pat and Tom are making.

https://imgur.com/a/BeZG7z2

 

[Shroud]

It doesn’t have to be pure hammer grip. The important thing is where the racket handle is lined up in your palm. 1 is wrong, 2 is correct.
If you don’t get it you’re missing the whole point that both Pat and Tom are making.

https://imgur.com/a/BeZG7z2

I wish you could be more clear. You wrote this "The only way is to hold the racket more like a hammer rather than a pistol regardless of how much the grip type is more backhand, continental or eastern fh" Now it seems the the important thing is the line in your palm, yet all the best servers seem to have a pistol grip. It seems possible to get the line with a pistol grip as all the high level servers do.

 

[Serve Doc]

If you recall when Becker began on tour and for the first years, with his almost forehand grip he would have the racquet at almost a 90 degree angle relative to the forearm to avoid wrist jamming with that grip so it looked like he was holding a candlestick. He had the racket cradled in his fingers and across the pads with much of the palm exposed and heel above handle. He never changed his grip to full Continental over his career but as shown in the pic above that angle diminished to almost 45 degrees and the heel began to be a problem that caused wrist injuries over time and was a contributor to his retirement.

 

[Curious]

I wish you could be more clear. You wrote this "The only way is to hold the racket more like a hammer rather than a pistol regardless of how much the grip type is more backhand, continental or eastern fh" Now it seems the the important thing is the line in your palm, yet all the best servers seem to have a pistol grip. It seems possible to get the line with a pistol grip as all the high level servers do.

I wasn’t clear. That’s because of the same bevel alignment of both index knuckle and heel pad, like classic 2-2 continental, which has to be a pistol grip. But heel on 1, index knuckle on 2 ( more backhand type grip) then it has to be more hammer like alignment.