Meles
Bionic Poster
Agreed, they fall short of Nadal because even as a slender fragile teenage boy he exposed the vacuum of the 2003 -- 2007 era and the Federar's lack of talent.
Tsitsipas' backhand...
- Thread starter ReturnAndVolley
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strongwilled
Rookie
Uh, no. That's utterly absurd.
Tsitsipas's backhand is a creampuff shot. It's "more consistent" all right. Consistently non-threatening.
Federer's top spin backhand is one of the greatest in the history of tennis (but constantly picked at and under-the-radar because of how dominant Federer was over everyone except Nadal, with people laughably claiming that just about every player in tennis has a better backhand than Federer because they never actually watch other players and get so consumed every time Federer mishits a backhand or loses to Nadal).
The idea that players like Tsitsipas could do with their backhand what Federer did against Nadal in the 5th set of the AO last year, or at Indian Wells, or in the 2006 Masters Cup final vs. Blake, is just comical.
FailBetter
Semi-Pro
Its no just Nadal, its also djokovic or every other player who has the possibilities they go down to feds BH attacking it because they now its gonna breaking down.
What Fed did in that AO final or at the first part of 2017 was just high risk. Taking the ball really early and going almost every time for the winner or at least for a really agressive shot. Because he knew if he doesnt he gets destroyed by Rafa. Fed can do that. At least on Hardcourts. Because of his good timing and reaction. But this has nothing to do with the BH technique itself. And if he doesnt has the confidence and the nothing to loose attitude he had in early 2017 it will not work.
His BH Topspin is just not that good. Not that natural. Like almost every other shot he has.
Edit: Dont get me wrong. I am a Fed fan. And its unbelievable what he achieved. But on the BH wing we have to be honest...
MasturB
Legend
Classic BeatlesFan post.
strongwilled
Rookie
Give me a break. In Federer's prime, he was losing no more than 5 matches per year, and the only one who successfully "broke it down" was Nadal, who breaks down virtually every player's backhand (except for Djokovic).
Again, this is just a myopic view of Federer's backhand. You only notice when he seems to struggle with it because you don't bother watching other players nearly as much as you watch Federer. You don't notice all the shots Wawrinka hits 3 feet outside the lines when he's being ultra-aggressive with his...and that Nadal has, career-wise, absolutely dominated Wawrinka in the FH-to-BH exchanges as well. For every Federer shank, Wawrinka hit 3 backhands long.
Also, if Federer's backhand was not that good, he would be a poor man's Pete Sampras, because Sampras was as good or better than Federer at every other aspect of the game. Yet Sampras couldn't do squat on clay and was way more vulnerable on hardcourt.
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FailBetter
Semi-Pro
yeah I wouldnt compare him to wawrinka. stan is only consistent when he is on stanimal mode. but generally his topspin bh is better than feds. tough fed has way better varity.
Compare him to gasquet, guga or even justine henin way more consistent one handed backhands.
If you watched the match today against djoker... that was just the perfect example how to break down feds backhand. he just cant rally on this wing long enough. he will miss mostly before his opponents with better/more consistent bh's. What he can is putting in this awesome slice bh. or running around and hit a forehand. he can confuse or play with his varity but he just cant rally with those other guys.. and why? because he is not consistent enough.
lets put it this way. if he isnt allowed to use his slice (and I dont talk about a defensive slice) and if he isnt allowed to run around his bh he wouldnt be competitive with those guys.
I think even if you would ask him he would tell you the same.
Even tough he would destroy me and most of others on this planet only using his BH and his serve. But compared to the "best of the rest" he has one of the weakest topspin bh's.
strongwilled
Rookie
This is just asinine. Federer dominated tennis for years and years in a way which had never been done before - as a baseliner in the baseline era - and you think he has a weak backhand.
Just utterly laughbale.
Also, Federer has usually dominated the backhand-to-backhand rallies against Gasquet. And that's partly because of another vital issue fans like you miss: Federer is the only player in tennis who takes the ball on the rise with a one-handed backhand.
His timing has to be impeccable to do that with a one-hander. He could be more "consistent" if he backed up 3 feet like all the other 1-handers, but he doesn't. And this rewards his overall game, as he is able to dominate guys like Gasquet, who sacrifice court positioning in order to time their 1-handed backhands.
Additionally, most of Federer's BH misses in this match were balls he sliced into the net.
His top spin backhand was generally excellent this match, and it certainly wasn't the reason he lost.
And he lost to Djokovic. Nobody is beating Djokovic in this kind of form. If your measure of "weak backhand" is Djokovic outlasting someone in rallies, then every player in men's tennis except Djokovic has a weak backhand.
One last thing you aren't grasping: Federer and Djokovic are different styles of player. Federer is much more offensive-minded. You seem to define quality of backhand the way a player like Djokovic would: "How many consecutive backhands can you hit without missing?"
Federer's not trying to hit 20 straight backhands and wait for an error. He's an offensive player. He wants to hit winners.
And at the end of this match, Federer had like twice the number of winners to Djokovic, but also around twice the number of errors. It's a style clash.
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FailBetter
Semi-Pro
Yeah exactly what I am talking about.
Yes and why? Because he cant. You see him sometimes on very important points where he is trying to play it save. He will go a lot for the slice. Because he just is not comofortable hitting 5-10-20 topspin backhands. This also depends on his grip which is very neutral, almost the same for the slice and the topspin.
strongwilled
Rookie
No, he's not trying because that's not his style. He doesn't try to do that on his forehand, either. If it were a contest to see who can keep their forehand in play the longest, Federer would lose that battle as well.
What, you think Federer just isn't capable of playing like Gilles Simon?
Federer's style is to stand on top of the baseline and take the ball early and try to take time away from his opponent and hit winners. It's the style that he has the talent to pull off and most other players do not.
Rafa Aficionado
Rookie
Absolute nonsense by OP.
BH is great
BH is great
FailBetter
Semi-Pro
yeah absolutely now I think we are staring to understand each other. at least I understand your point.
Now I dont know where we started with this discussion. I thought it was about tsitsipas BH. And I still think he has a really good, consistent topspin bh, even if he is not going for winners or taking them on the rise all the time.
I think we just have different definitions of what is a good bh.
I guess I'm not the only one to feel this way about Tsitsipas's BH. I was watching the Nextgen matches and was surprised to see him not tee off on what looked like hittable backhands à la Shapovalov/Wawrinka/Thiem. On the other hand, maybe it's a sign of maturity/restraint/patience if he knows that it's not (yet?) a reliable weapon.
Frenchy-Player
Hall of Fame
Nice open stance one hander! We need more of those!
Clay lover
Legend
I am beginning to wonder if the oft-mentioned big takeback is really the problem. People always blame it for the reason he gets jammed or fails to hit it down the line but when I look at him, the takeback doesn't look more complex that a Gasquet, Gaudio, Kuerten, Thiem...all of whom have a far more efficacious backhand than he does...
Maybe the problem is more fundamental? @Zoid ?
Maybe the problem is more fundamental? @Zoid ?
McGradey
Hall of Fame
- Typically can’t seem to dial in the ideal mix of spin and drive on the backhand, usually it skews heavily towards spinny — so consistent, but almost no threat
- Occasional heater down the line or smacked flatter CC but that’s a rarity and doesn’t seem like he has much confidence to conjure those shots up under pressure
- Very unnatural, awkward slice, improving but again not yet a reliable tool
- No reliable DTL passing shot to speak of on the backhand side, he’ll pass CC but that’s generally it
- Overall, it’s a serviceable shot in most matches, but nothing more — and a clear target for an elite player
- Occasional heater down the line or smacked flatter CC but that’s a rarity and doesn’t seem like he has much confidence to conjure those shots up under pressure
- Very unnatural, awkward slice, improving but again not yet a reliable tool
- No reliable DTL passing shot to speak of on the backhand side, he’ll pass CC but that’s generally it
- Overall, it’s a serviceable shot in most matches, but nothing more — and a clear target for an elite player
So you confess that you haven't watched him live in person
smalahove
Hall of Fame
Imo, the weak element to his OHBH is that he more often than not has a bent arm on impact.
I think he might have copied Fed's technique, which is very hard to replicate properly as he takes back his right arm with a bent elbow and only straightens it out just before impact, which is very hard to time. Compare that to to f.inst. Thiem. Iirc Gasquet does this as well. The benefits are more explosiveness in the shot, easier to generate spin, but at the expense of control, as a timing error will have more negative impact.
I think he might have copied Fed's technique, which is very hard to replicate properly as he takes back his right arm with a bent elbow and only straightens it out just before impact, which is very hard to time. Compare that to to f.inst. Thiem. Iirc Gasquet does this as well. The benefits are more explosiveness in the shot, easier to generate spin, but at the expense of control, as a timing error will have more negative impact.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
The stuff of mugs.
Winners or Errors
Legend
Old thread, but as someone who watches OHBH players because of the beauty of the shot, Tsitsipas does indeed have the ugliest OHBH I have ever seen, and that includes John McEnroe's.
McGradey
Hall of Fame
Not since January …
My two cents.
I think for the modern game a more extreme backhand grip is better (Gasquet, Almagro, Shapovalov). Can generate spin and handle the higher ball better. However, bigger grip change is a factor/need more time. So that is a consideration.
I'm also a fan of getting the strings facing up which is achieved by getting a lot of extension in the wrist (a more extreme grip promotes this) and getting the take back over the head./strings behind the crown of your head. note also the lifted left elbow. A huge drop, which straightens the arm will follow, and from there the arm can swing freely around as the shoulders open.
From here the racquet is going to drop a lot from the inside.
Tsitsipas doesn't really get the strings up at all. his wrist is more relaxed and his grip is more conservative than the above three. I'm not a big fan of this because I like the idea of removing variation; a more extreme grip promotes extension at all times in the wrist. Tsitsipas has a very natural and loose backhand, but he doesn't set up with a straight arm and he doesn't have full extension in the wrist and I think this is why he shanks quite a lot; those micro degrees his wrist can be offset kind of mess his timing, especially when rushed.
Fed has a conservative grip, but look how open he gets his strings/to the sky/behind his head. However you want to call it. Far more extension in the wrist. When you have a conservative grip and extend the wrist a lot so the face is open, it gives you the feeling of being able to "roll" over the ball a lot. Or shorten the swing and square the face for a return easily.
Now one backhand I am not a fan of is dimitrov, because his grip is so conservative he doesn't hit on contact anywhere close to extended. He is almost flexed, so he has to "roll" his hand an extreme amount to square or close the face. Talent can make it work of course.
Now if we think about which backhand has taken the principles of removing unnecessary movement better than anyone, the player that comes to mind is THIEM.
Conservative grip, straight arm with a lot of extension: Note also that Thiem chokes up on the grip, effectively making it a 26inch frame. Again, this is effective because it REMOVES degrees of freedom. He is gaining control with an extended wrist, straight arm, and choked up grip. This kind of promotes a longer take-back I guess but it's one of the reasons his backhand is such a weapon; he can swing out on that thing with a better feeling of control. He can rotate his body a huge amount, even more than stan perhaps, and because he opens the face WITH a conservative grip, this creates the conditions for that ability to inject huge flat pace at will.
Most one-handers are all very similar in technique--more so than another shots, because you cant vary teh grip that much or get away with a takeback that deviates from good form toooo much.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
You're absolutely right, Tsitsipas is the opposite of Federer, ugly and non esthetic strokes.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Until the Nitto finals I never saw him pass anyone with. Ever. But it's actually happened now. Twice! He might have a shot at greatness yet. Probably needs to develop a better slice and ditch his dad.
Clay lover
Legend
So if I have not interpreted incorrectly, a slightly more extreme grip (extreme eastern or semi western) is more suited to today's conditions, and because of the way the grip configures the body it's better to hit with a locked extended wrist through contact? And to keep it simple better to start extended so that the wrist configuration doesn't change throughout the swing?My two cents.
I think for the modern game a more extreme backhand grip is better (Gasquet, Almagro, Shapovalov). Can generate spin and handle the higher ball better. However, bigger grip change is a factor/need more time. So that is a consideration.
I'm also a fan of getting the strings facing up which is achieved by getting a lot of extension in the wrist (a more extreme grip promotes this) and getting the take back over the head./strings behind the crown of your head. note also the lifted left elbow. A huge drop, which straightens the arm will follow, and from there the arm can swing freely around as the shoulders open.
From here the racquet is going to drop a lot from the inside.
Tsitsipas doesn't really get the strings up at all. his wrist is more relaxed and his grip is more conservative than the above three. I'm not a big fan of this because I like the idea of removing variation; a more extreme grip promotes extension at all times in the wrist. Tsitsipas has a very natural and loose backhand, but he doesn't set up with a straight arm and he doesn't have full extension in the wrist and I think this is why he shanks quite a lot; those micro degrees his wrist can be offset kind of mess his timing, especially when rushed.
Fed has a conservative grip, but look how open he gets his strings/to the sky/behind his head. However you want to call it. Far more extension in the wrist. When you have a conservative grip and extend the wrist a lot so the face is open, it gives you the feeling of being able to "roll" over the ball a lot. Or shorten the swing and square the face for a return easily.
Now one backhand I am not a fan of is dimitrov, because his grip is so conservative he doesn't hit on contact anywhere close to extended. He is almost flexed, so he has to "roll" his hand an extreme amount to square or close the face. Talent can make it work of course.
Now if we think about which backhand has taken the principles of removing unnecessary movement better than anyone, the player that comes to mind is THIEM.
Conservative grip, straight arm with a lot of extension: Note also that Thiem chokes up on the grip, effectively making it a 26inch frame. Again, this is effective because it REMOVES degrees of freedom. He is gaining control with an extended wrist, straight arm, and choked up grip. This kind of promotes a longer take-back I guess but it's one of the reasons his backhand is such a weapon; he can swing out on that thing with a better feeling of control. He can rotate his body a huge amount, even more than stan perhaps, and because he opens the face WITH a conservative grip, this creates the conditions for that ability to inject huge flat pace at will.
Most one-handers are all very similar in technique--more so than another shots, because you cant vary teh grip that much or get away with a takeback that deviates from good form toooo much.
Whereas with Tsitsipas he doesn't lock it in an extended wrist position causing the wrist to have the potential to either flex or extend at contact resulting in inconsistency.
There's a big difference between perfect technique and poor technique. It's a continuum, and all top players are much closer to perfect than poor, it's just that when you play against someone technically better than you, it gets magnified.
And there's many ways to win tennis matches. You can have a great serve and be very average from the back and be top 10/20 (Isner/Karlovic). Or you can have a big serve and forehand and very average backhand (Berrettini).
I mean, I just like the more extreme grip because i think it's more conducive to the style of the game today. The Haas/Federer more conservative grip allows you to block and take it early better I guess/shorten the swing better maybe. These are tiny adjustments/factors as I said as most OHBH's are very close in grip and set-up. BUt yeah, even with a more conservative grip I like getting a lot of extension in the wrist; when I hit it I feel I can more easily "roll" my hand over the ball like Dimitrov does when coming from an extended position, versus being more relaxed like stef.
Stef's backhand is great. I got to see it close up for the first time in Montreal this year, and it's a great backhand, but he does shank more than most single handers and my guess would be because of this loose wrist/bent arm set up.
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