Using Roddick's serve motion.. good or bad?

[EuroMagnum]

By now many of you know of my struggle with the Continental grip (I always used my forehand grip for serves and volleys and I got a pretty good serve that way so Continental set me basically back to zero). Well, i've been practicing a great deal with Continental and volleys weren't that hard to catch on to, I feel comfortable at net again. As for the serve i'm still struggling, but my coach recently taught me Roddick service motion and I found that I could really rip some hard flat serves. I haven't tried spin serves like this but it seems to be working out.

Should I continue using this motion? I mean is it a good choice in the long run (i'm 16 so i've got a long way ahead of me)? I've heard mixed emotions, some people say that Roddick's motion is really unique and trying to copy it will just slow you down (i.e. only Roddick can do it well so don't try to imitate him), while others say that it's a technique that's been around for ages and if you start practicing it early enough instead of the other serve motions you can get harder serves in the long run.

Any opinions?

 

[lethalfang]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Roddick motion.
The "Roddick service motion" brings the racquet straight up, instead of the whole loopy motion. I don't see how you bring the racquet up makes a major impact on how you serve the ball, as long as you have the right timing of the ball toss and your service motion.

 

[Ross K]

Euromagnum,

On this v/fam subject - DO IT! If it's working for you after a few weeks, stick with it; if you haven't made much headway, ditch it and return to the more traditional motion. And btw, you mentioned it's ARod's unique style? WRONG. Check out Monfils, Nadal, Henin-Ardenne, and lots of others - they're all abbreviated or semi-abbreviated serve motions (like before them - Rafter and Ivanisevic, and indeed, back in the day, Rosco Tanner.)

 

[maverick1]

If Roddick's motion is working best for you, go for it. Some people used to predict that Roddick would have a major injury, but no longer. Now I read that Roddick has fairly injury-proof technique.

I do think that you need to be explosive to get the most out of an abbreviated motion. Explosiveness is probably the first thing that goes with age. Besides, trying to be explosive could cause muscle injuries when you are 40, but by then you will be past your best Tennis days anyway, and you can gradually adapt to an easier motion.

Personally, I find it easier to generate pace and rhythm with a long motion like McEnroe or Sampras. But if I were 16, I would go with Roddick. I wouldn't be able to focus for the length of time McEnroe's wind-up takes

 

[lethalfang]

I believe the only reason I have a long motion to bring the racquet up is that, that's the way I was taught. I haven't paid much attention to other players, but when the ball leaves my hand in the toss, my racquet is already half way up, so I guess my service motion has the "Roddick effect?"

 

[Achilles]

By now many of you know of my struggle with the Continental grip (I always used my forehand grip for serves and volleys and I got a pretty good serve that way so Continental set me basically back to zero). Well, i've been practicing a great deal with Continental and volleys weren't that hard to catch on to, I feel comfortable at net again. As for the serve i'm still struggling, but my coach recently taught me Roddick service motion and I found that I could really rip some hard flat serves. I haven't tried spin serves like this but it seems to be working out.

Should I continue using this motion? I mean is it a good choice in the long run (i'm 16 so i've got a long way ahead of me)? I've heard mixed emotions, some people say that Roddick's motion is really unique and trying to copy it will just slow you down (i.e. only Roddick can do it well so don't try to imitate him), while others say that it's a technique that's been around for ages and if you start practicing it early enough instead of the other serve motions you can get harder serves in the long run.

Any opinions?

you can learn alot from his serve, but you gotta keep in mind that he is almost 6'2"

 

[4brotherdrive]

You dont need to copy everything about it, just do what feel's natural.

 

[tricky]

If you can rip and place with the Roddick motion, by all means stick with it.

You can then work on building flexibility around the shoulder girdle, doing LOTS of RC exercises and specific stretches. This will let you take the racquet back further in the Roddick style.

 

[drakulie]

Th only thing really unique about the Roddick motion is the takeback. The rest of it is extremely similar to every other pro.

If that takeback works for you, then go with it.

 

[LarougeNY]

I tried the roddick serve motion, I felt it was only good for slices though (maybe just the way I was doing it). I try and model mine after federer's, and with doing that its much easier to hit any spin or place the ball.

 

[Amone]

Th only thing really unique about the Roddick motion is the takeback. The rest of it is extremely similar to every other pro.

If that takeback works for you, then go with it.

Actually, his foot placement is rather unique, too. It's similar to many players', for all intents and purposes, but the fact that his feet are more-or-less planted parallel and close together, and don't spread or come together, is both an odd distance for a platform (feet planted)-- and a pinpoint, actually-- and there's no motion to make it a true pinpoint placement. I don't know how much that effects anything though.

 

[The Gorilla]

I thought slo mo video by johnyandell et al had proven that Roddick has an incredibly deep take back, far deeper than average, you just don't see it because he swings so fast?

 

[drakulie]

Amone, very true. His foot placement is actually very unique. More-so than his service motion.

 

[Amone]

Amone, very true. His foot placement is actually very unique. More-so than his service motion.

An odd facet regarding that foot-positioning: I have tried it a few times (I think I've grown in the last year, but I couldn't be taller than 5'9, so I have to do some proportion-fixes) and I find that I tend to get a very deep shoulder turn, in comparison to most other ways I have tried to serve... is that just a coincidence?

 

[tricky]

is both an odd distance for a platform (feet planted)-- and a pinpoint, actually-- and there's no motion to make it a true pinpoint placement. I don't know how much that effects anything though.

Yeah, Yandell argues that this kind of stance accomplishes the forward-turn drive that pinpoint is presumed to do. Two key elements happen . . .

1) Very, very narrow stance, which destabilizes his foundation and causes him to lean forward into court.

2) Through a sequence of steps, he rotates his platform stance prior to the bend.


Roddick's style is interesting because he uses less loading stages, but he applies more stretch-shorten elements into each one. I think step 2 speaks to that.

He uses a moderate hip and shoulder turn, but he gets a very strong rotational response anyway, because he changes his back foot position after the turn is complete. This, out of axis rotation between lower and upper body, creates a sudden increase in stretch across the unit. As a result, you get a strong unit turn even while not bending far into the shot. In order to adjust the angle of his backfoot, he also has to lift his back foot off the ground before resetting it. This also creates another stretch-shorten cycle in the quads, giving you spring in the jump. And of course, he gets major stretch-shorten cycle with his whippy shoulder takeback.

So, we can identify at least 3 stages of stretch-shorten or "spring" action into his service motion.

What's interesting with the above foot concept is that it can be pretty easily applied to your normal platform serve. For example, you could . . .

1) Start with platform stance.
2) As soon as you throw the ball in the air, turn front foot.
3) As you bend your knees, you lift the heel of your back foot in order to turn back foot until it's parallel with back foot. Feel the stretch across the torso.
4) Launch off both feet.
5) Tell a stranger to shut the hell up and throw the racquet. This improves spin.

 

[Hot Sauce]

If it works for you then use it for matches, but definitely practice that continental grip because if you want to get good, you're going to need to know it.

 

[Ross K]

ARod's unusual foot movements

I've long noticed ARod's unusual looking foot movements - (I'm not talking about his feet being close together but the way he moves them, steps onto the balls of his feet and then lowers them, or whatever he's doing and in conjunction with whatever else) - it doesn't look like the rest of the pro's, and I've never been sure quite what he's doing. Tricky, I know you've you've just touched on this but do you mind detailing it a bit more comprehensively but simply.

Cheers - it's always informative to read your posts.

 

[maverick1]

Actually, his foot placement is rather unique, too. It's similar to many players', for all intents and purposes, but the fact that his feet are more-or-less planted parallel and close together, and don't spread or come together, is both an odd distance for a platform (feet planted)-- and a pinpoint, actually-- and there's no motion to make it a true pinpoint placement. I don't know how much that effects anything though.

To be exact, Roddick's feet start out pretty close together( about an 8 inche gap), then he draws his left foot a few inches back towards his back(right) foot during the motion. I can't imagine any puprose for it. Seems like a quirky habit he accidentally picked up at some point.

 

[maverick1]

3) As you bend your knees, you lift the heel of your back foot in order to turn back foot until it's parallel with back foot. Feel the stretch across the torso.

I don't see anything unusual happening with Roddick's back foot.
After just checking 4 or 5 different first serves of Roddick at TennisPlayer.net, I can confirm that the back foot neither lifts nor rotates until take off. It takes off straight up from the initial position. Both his feet are pretty much parallel throught out the motion. The only quirk thing with the feet is that he slides his left foot a bit closer towards his right foot.

 

[Ten_nuts]

I totally agree with Drakulie"The only thing really unique about the Roddick motion is the takeback". I used to use loop in serving, and i wanted to change instantly right after seeing Roddick's serves. Who wouldn't like Roddick, and his serving style? Everything is easy to copy except the takeback, and i know right away when my serve is weaker than i normally did. I am still practicing without a doubt in my mind that i can do it someday. In Brief, Roddick's serves, Hardin... is the great way to learn the serve in tennis and, in my opinion, will be very popular in near future.

 

[tricky]

Both his feet are pretty much parallel throught out the motion. The only quirk thing with the feet is that he slides his left foot a bit closer towards his right foot.

I thought so too (thought it was all takeback before), but started to changed my mind when looking at Yandell's Part 1/Page 2 of the Roddick article. It's not just that he narrows his stance, but that he also starts rotating the feet. When he brings the front foot in, he also turns his front heel, as if he was about to do a really narrow, half-ass pinpoint stance. But, then he changes up the weight distribution on the back foot, so that he can turn his back foot on the ball of his foot prior to jumping. In effect, you have something like a "forward stance", where the feet are roughly parallel, but now at a moderate angle with the baseline. And then he launches with both feet.

Finally, everything comes down in unison prior to launching off both feet simultaneously.

you've you've just touched on this but do you mind detailing it a bit more comprehensively but simply.

As I'm reading the article, the basic instructions *seem* to go . . .

1) Platform stance

2) Initiates knee bend on front knee.

3) Slide front foot closer and rotate heel inwards about 30 degrees or so. At this point, the front knee is no longer parallel with the back knee, and it's more bent than the back knee.

4) Once front foot is set, then his back knee has to catch up, matching bend and rotation.

5) To do step 3 , he bends his back knee forward and rotates on the ball of his back foot. The weight distribution between the heel and ball of foot kinda shifts back and forth in order to facilitate balance.

6) At some point, his knees will have equal bend and be roughly parallel. This is near the bottom of the bend.

7) He pushes off both feet together.

I'm kinda interested in this foot style, because I'm trying to see whether and how something like this can be combined with Federer's body wrap.

 

[Ross K]

Tricky,

Many thanks for that excellant analysis. As I said earlier, I too have felt for ages that he must be doing something different with his feet (something more than keeping them parallel and close together, or just going up sequentially on the ball of his feet) The reason why? A while back I completely learnt (or tried to learn) his serve; from the slightly lower toss, the straight-to-shoulder takeback, the deep knee bend, the equally deep racquet drop, and I could even mention his sometime habit of visibly exhaling, blowing out through his cheeks, when connecting with the ball... But one of the things I could never properly immitate was his foot movements, and that's because I couldn't work it out. No matter how I attempted to capture the moves and the rythym of it, it never happened...

It's not just that he narrows his stance, but that he also starts rotating the feet. When he brings the front foot in, he also turns his front heel, as if he was about to do a really narrow, half-ass pinpoint stance. But, then he changes up the weight distribution on the back foot, so that he can turn his back foot on the ball of his foot prior to jumping. In effect, you have something like a "forward stance", where the feet are roughly parallel, but now at a moderate angle with the baseline. And then he launches with both feet.

... and...

3) Slide front foot closer and rotate heel inwards about 30 degrees or so. At this point, the front knee is no longer parallel with the back knee, and it's more bent than the back knee.

4) Once front foot is set, then his back knee has to catch up, matching bend and rotation.

5) To do step 3 , he bends his back knee forward and rotates on the ball of his back foot. The weight distribution between the heel and ball of foot kinda shifts back and forth in order to facilitate balance.

6) At some point, his knees will have equal bend and be roughly parallel. This is near the bottom of the bend.

7) He pushes off both feet together.

Hopefully, after studying the above it's all going to make a load more sense to me now. Thanks again.

 

[Baghdatis72]

If you can serve like Roddick then there's no problem with your service technique obviously

 

[Spinnage]

roddicks serve is two motions, federers is one smooth motion.

 

[Ross K]

If you can serve like Roddick then there's no problem with your service technique obviously

Not sure if this is meant for me, but anyway (and I've posted a very similar message on another thread today) the answer is: 'Yes. YES, as a matter of fact, I DO serve like Roddick'... that''ll be Myrtle Roddick btw, Andy's much-cherished, invalided grandmother.

 

[Amone]

roddicks serve is two motions, federers is one smooth motion.

Ivanisevic's is smoother. Nobody asked about Federer.

 

[tricky]

Ross K --

Yeah, just wanted to add that the take on the footwork is mostly from Yandell's article on the Roddick serve. And I might have gotten some parts of it wrong. So, just you know . . . .

I'm still having problems visualizing how he modulates weight distribution with his back foot around the rotation, because ostensibly, he's still knee bending as he's doing it. But I understand that, whatever he does, he creates a mini-spring action prior to the jump. You see that sometimes with people who use pinpoint stance (really the best way to get yourself to turn around the axis), but Roddick's style is inherently much stronger.

I think the key thing in visualizing this is that he drives with both feet in the same direction. As you know, if you did this with a platform stance, you'll mostly just jump straight up in the air. But, if you did this at an angle . . .

It then the question, well why not just set your feet up that way in the beginning?

From my point of view, anytime you see any kind of motion/stroke where some form of "correction" is used (in this example, the feet), it's probably used to facilitate the stretch reflex. By turning your feet after your unit turn, you increase a lot of stretch-tension in your lower and upper torso, which you then uncoil when you jump. By establishing one of the feet right before the jump, you create this tension suddenly. When doing this together, you set up a stretch reflex.

The key with initiating stretch reflex here is to uncoil/unload the stretch before you consciously tell the muscle to "work." Delaying staging of the kinetic chain. (i.e. In semi-tech speak, the idea is that you don't want to apply neural drive through the turn around from eccentric/negative to concentric/positive contraction of the muscle, because it will seriously inhibit the stretch reflex. This is why, for example, you can't drive the FH as hard if you try pulling from the hand and initiating the elbow or shoulder at the same time. It's better to think of it as a 1-2 "initiate arm! accelerate hand!" rhythm --> "elbow in! pull!", not "elbow in and pull.")


So, for example, with traditional stances, you're kinda taught to untwist as you drive from your feet. But with the "Roddick drive", you just push forward and let the body unwind on its own. As you swing forward with pronation, only then do you then consciously rotate the body until it's properly lined up with the net. But that part is instinctive anyway.

A lot of Roddick's mechanics are just fascinating because he includes a lot of stretch-shorten cycles that nobody else uses. Loading/unloading for power is all well and good, but it's based on a non-ballistic model of movement. Whereas baseball technique for both hitting and pitching is mostly based on ballistic movements and staging. You can definitely see the baseball background in what he does.

 

[Silentgunz]

its good if it works for u its bad if it doesnt

 

[tricky]

Probably belongs in the H&F section, but . . .

Yeah, if you want to someday have a Roddick-esque takeback and scare the crap out of that 3.0 punk across from you, you want to work on two things:

1) Develop a really robust tendon/ligament foundation around the rotator cuff. This link has been cited before . . .

http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RotatorCuff.asp

If you have access to a gym . . .

External Rotation (highest priority)
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/CBSeatedExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/LVExternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBUprightExternalRotation.html

Internal Rotation
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/DBInternalRotation.html

This should be done 4-6x-a-week. (Internal stuff can be done less frequently.) If you want to improve your durability, you can make the following changes:

1a) If you're doing the bodyresults program, do them while lying face down on a bench.
1b) Limit range of motion to the "top" of the movement and a few inches below it.
1c) Shoot for about 100 mini-reps (or pumps) per movement. If the burn/fatigue is too strong, then stop, rest, and continue.
1d) You know it's working if you get a huge burning sensation in the area, and then afterwards a pump.

2) After about 3-4 weeks of the above, then start stretches. You always, always want your tendon/ligament strength to be well ahead of your current muscle flexibility.

External Rotation (highest priority)
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Infraspinatus/Broomstick.html
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Infraspinatus/Bentover.html
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Infraspinatus/SeatedBentover.html
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Infraspinatus/SideLying.html

Internal Rotation
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Subscapularis/Broomstick.html
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Subscapularis/Doorway.html

2a) Always do the rotator cuff exercises prior to stretching. If you do external stretching that day, you do the ext. exercises first.
2b) 3-5x-a-week. NEVER stretch if sore.
2c) Shoot for 60-90 seconds total for each stretch. It doesn't have to be contiguous. When you start feeling discomfort, stop for 15 seconds and then continue until you've done a total of 60-90 seconds.
2d) Relax the hands as much as you can. Breathe deeply and try to relax.
2e) If you're serving that day, scale back the stretching, but perform RC exercises prior to game/practice.
2f) Avoid ballistic, isometric, and PNF stretching techniques. All three will weaken the stretch reflex over time; the reflex is the power source for the takeback.

After about 3-4 months, you should be fairly close to Roddick's flexibility, and your RC should be strong enough to handle the takeback at full force through a match.

 

[donut]

if u feel comfortable and serve well ti doesnt matter x_X if u have the ugliest serve in the world but u serve 150mph no ones going to stop u

 

[Ross K]

I'm still having problems visualizing how he modulates weight distribution with his back foot around the rotation, because ostensibly, he's still knee bending as he's doing it. But I understand that, whatever he does, he creates a mini-spring action prior to the jump. You see that sometimes with people who use pinpoint stance (really the best way to get yourself to turn around the axis), but Roddick's style is inherently much stronger.

I think the key thing in visualizing this is that he drives with both feet in the same direction. As you know, if you did this with a platform stance, you'll mostly just jump straight up in the air. But, if you did this at an angle . . .

Yep, I sure don't fully understand it either, but you seem to be heading in the right direction anyway. It would, however, be great if John Yandell, or just somebody else who has really studied these ARod foot movements, or who just has a few poss insights, could help try and clear this up.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Roddick has a good serve despite his service motion. His motion is quite complicated and unique to Roddick. We all remember Patrick Rafter! He retired from tennis around the age of 27 because he developed rotator cuff problem because of his abbreciated serve motion.

It is better to copy more fluid style of a Sampras or a Federer. Their motions are simple and biomechanically sound too!

 

[Ross K]

Roddick has a good serve despite his service motion. His motion is quite complicated and unique to Roddick. We all remember Patrick Rafter! He retired from tennis around the age of 27 because he developed rotator cuff problem because of his abbreciated serve motion.

It is better to copy more fluid style of a Sampras or a Federer. Their motions are simple and biomechanically sound too!

Based on my own personal experience, I don't agree with this at all; in fact my experience is the complete absolute opposite.

Prior to the abbreviated serve, trying more conventional serve motions, I really struggled to find this much heralded fluid serve (as I remember it, I had that classic problem of serving in stages, if you know what I mean, ie, actually not fluid at all.) When I got to trying the abbreviated motion though, it all got a lot better - and quite fast too. For me it was so much easier, what with the slightly lower toss, straight-to-shoulder takeback, deep knee bend, etc. The extra power was also apparent immediately. Generally it was so much more dynamic and explosive, and over time this has become much smoother.

I would add that comments about Rafter's injuries and his own abbreviated serve motion are to my knowledge correct. As to the damaging effects of this motion on ppl in general, I'm not qualified to speak on that. I'd further add, I think ARod has thus far been pretty much injury free during his career. And finally - as I've said a few times before - the abbreviated or semi-abbreviated serve motion was around in the days of Rosco Tanner; more recently, Ivanisevic, and indeed, Rafter; and lately, Roddick, Nadal, Henin-Ardenne and Montfils - to name but four - all do this motion to some degree.

And as a matter of fact, I believe the ASM is on the increase. It's the more honed, back-to-fundamentals, simple, up-down-explode serve that's gaining popularity among the pro's, not the old toss it 28 feet in the air, have a cup coffee, stand like your stopping traffic, swing your racquet back a fraction from the ground, point it to the ocean, loop the loop, go to backscratcher postion (or in Sampras's case, the 'scratch the back of the person next to you' position), pronate into your opponents eyeballs... Sorry I'm being silly now! But you get my point?

 

[Mountain Ghost]

“Perfection” in Complexity

Whatever you think you SHOULD be doing or should NOT be doing in your attempts to clone Roddick’s serve, try to keep from getting too complicated. Even if you are able to identify each unique aspect of the serve (and dissect the toenail positions under it), this so-called “simple, up-down-explode serve” is miles beyond the reach of most players who think they can analyze their way to it.

Analysis is a great tool, but a greater tool is having an intelligent professional examine your serve and whittle the many things you may be doing “wrong” down to a FEW key visualizations that will help your unique execution the most.

MG

 

[tricky]

Prior to the abbreviated serve, trying more conventional serve motions, I really struggled to find this much heralded fluid serve (as I remember it, I had that classic problem of serving in stages, if you know what I mean, ie, actually not fluid at all.)

I was rather partial to the McEnroe serve myself growing up, because he would kinda fan his body into the serve. Many people thought it was a rather ugly motion, but I thought it looked really fluid, "relaxed" and natural. So, naturally, I like Fed's serve, which is kinda like McEnroe's with a proper trophy pose.

That said, Roddick's serve intuitively makes sense because it's pretty similar to a "vertical forehand" or pitcher's motion And if you look at the different sports involving throwing or serving a projectile, all but tennis heavily relies on compact form and stretch-shorten dynamics in order to produce speed. It's really only tennis that uses heavy, but (mostly) non-ballistic loading dynamics to produce power for the serve/throw. This is like taking a very big backswing with very big unit rotation and leg bend, pausing for a second or two, and then trying to go forward from the full stop. Roddick is the exception to that, but his motion is more in line with the other sports.
I'm not saying Roddick is "better" or "more correct", but Roddick's style reflects the more conventional wisdom of using spring/stretch-shorten/whip components to accelerate the lever of a throwing/serving motion. In that school of thought (just like a mature "modern forehand"), you first set up what is necessary to whip the stroke, and then you work on increasing the load on that whip motion.

The notion of an abbreviated takeback is a misconcept, because it still presumes the tennis-centric model of "load first, hitch second." That is, people go in thinking that the Roddick takeback is like their normal takeback, except shorter and "rhythmically quicker." They are taught to look at it as the "bow and arrow", and so they think rushing the bow and arrow is how Roddick does it.

In any case, it's really interesting what he does. Kinda like how if you watch a really great chef do their thing, you just kinda look in awe because it's so different than what you know.

 

[Ross K]

In any case, it's really interesting what he does. Kinda like how if you watch a really great chef do their thing, you just kinda look in awe because it's so different than what you know.

Amen to that... and btw, Mountain Ghost, isn't it perfectly natural that we'd all like to know the precise 'ingredients', so to speak?

 

[tricky]

I think Ghost was more speaking to the use of good visual cues in order to properly execute the stroke regularly. Roddick's serve being so different, there aren't ready "bow and arrow", "trophy position", "scratch my prison buddy's back" cliches that would mantain the flow of the stroke.

For example, when I looked at Fed's FH, I couldn't figure out how he closed his racquet so smoothly with an Eastern grip. But, then I kinda made up a visual cue that he was doing a kind of "tai chi pose" where the two arms would sort of "mirror" each other. And, then it led me to a tangent where Federer has a more "educated" left arm than most pros. He uses it in a way a martial artist or classical dancer might, improving stroke continuity and facilitating his balance/center of gravity when he otherwise appears "out of position", as well as timing the stroke. Those who train in those arts are often taught to think in images in order to create the positions and transitions.

I'm rereading the articles on Roddick right now to better understand the takeback. It's just so quirky!

 

[Ross K]

I think Ghost was more speaking to the use of good visual cues in order to properly execute the stroke regularly. Roddick's serve being so different, there aren't ready "bow and arrow", "trophy position", "scratch my prison buddy's back" cliches that would mantain the flow of the stroke.

For example, when I looked at Fed's FH, I couldn't figure out how he closed his racquet so smoothly with an Eastern grip. But, then I kinda made up a visual cue that he was doing a kind of "tai chi pose" where the two arms would sort of "mirror" each other. And, then it led me to a tangent where Federer has a more "educated" left arm than most pros. He uses it in a way a martial artist or classical dancer might, improving stroke continuity and facilitating his balance/center of gravity when he otherwise appears "out of position", as well as timing the stroke. Those who train in those arts are often taught to think in images in order to create the positions and transitions.

I'm rereading the articles on Roddick right now to better understand the takeback. It's just so quirky!

Anything you'd care to share on this or other aspects of the ARod serve yet? (As you know I've based my serve on the ARod serve to a large degree.) Because, as regards takeback, despite using a low-ish toss I often have the feeling of having to wait a tad too long for the ball to drop (from when I can drop racquet head down before extending to meet ball.) It's almost like I'm having to kill time waiting, and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing/meant to be doing in the meantime with the racquet. I kind of float it up, and at the slightest of angles so it's more opening at a sidewards angle as opposed to strictly vertical. However, as I say, it's not quite functioning properly.

So Tricky, you don't happen to know what ARod does exactly with his racquet arm during takeback? What angles he's using? How it works in conjunction with the toss and indeed all the rest of his movements? Or indeed why I might feel I'm kind of dithering until the balls in the zone?

Btw, I don't know the validity of this, but I have read or heard somewhere that right at the beginning during the ball bounce, ARod actually grips the racquet in a 'cocked' position (although I'm not sure exactly what that means/entails.) I'm using a lot of supposition here but maybe that means that during takeback instead of 'a sideways opening at a SLIGHT angle', as I wrote above, perhaps he is REALLY opening up and coming from an extreme angle with that 'floating' racquet arm being manouvered from this cocked wrist position? (And thinking about it, as with so much he does, whatever he's doing with that that racquet arm, it def looks odd!) Anyway, I should leave such hypotheses to those better informed...

 

[tricky]

So Tricky, you don't happen to know what ARod does exactly with his racquet arm during takeback?

Reading over his article, his takeback actually makes a lot of sense. As you know, he wants to get into the "hammer" position as soon as possible. He has the hammer position already set up, so that all he has to do is rotate around the shoulder to set it up.

But I don't think this itself gives an advantage in power, even though this does essentially take out one full stage. It's kinda similar to what Roddick what does with his full forehand, setting up the shape of the bottom of his backswing. I think he does this so that he makes sure his hammer position is set up correctly. His hammer position, well, NOW that is quirky . . .

ARod actually grips the racquet in a 'cocked' position (although I'm not sure exactly what that means/entails.)

So, here's the thing -- the wrist is cocked inwards (wrist counterclockwise), basically as much as he can do it. When he swings up, he lets the wrist unroll until it's back at the customary, relaxed position. This causes three things.

1) His forearm supinates, so that he has more available "arc space" to pronate later.

2) The unrolling lets the forearm supinate more naturally (or "relaxed".) This is then immediately followed by the pronation. This creates a stretch shorten cycle or stretch reflex in the forearm, so the pronation is both more exaggerated and accelerated.

3) It moves the swing plane way out more to the right.

So, this goes back to what was talked about before. He wants to make sure he gets maximum "inward wrist" when he gets into the hammer position. As a result. he sets this up in the beginning. And that is why you see the racquet face completely open to the net in the beginning.

This hitch can be added to anybody's swing though. In the trophy position, you turn your wrist inward, so that the racquet is closed. But it's important to note that this will also move the racquet way out more in front and to the right than they're used to.

 

[Ross K]

Reading over his article, his takeback actually makes a lot of sense. As you know, he wants to get into the "hammer" position as soon as possible. He has the hammer position already set up, so that all he has to do is rotate around the shoulder to set it up.

But I don't think this itself gives an advantage in power, even though this does essentially take out one full stage. It's kinda similar to what Roddick what does with his full forehand, setting up the shape of the bottom of his backswing. I think he does this so that he makes sure his hammer position is set up correctly. His hammer position, well, NOW that is quirky . . .



So, here's the thing -- the wrist is cocked inwards (wrist counterclockwise), basically as much as he can do it. When he swings up, he lets the wrist unroll until it's back at the customary, relaxed position. This causes three things.

1) His forearm supinates, so that he has more available "arc space" to pronate later.

2) The unrolling lets the forearm supinate more naturally (or "relaxed".) This is then immediately followed by the pronation. This creates a stretch shorten cycle or stretch reflex in the forearm, so the pronation is both more exaggerated and accelerated.

3) It moves the swing plane way out more to the right.

So, this goes back to what was talked about before. He wants to make sure he gets maximum "inward wrist" when he gets into the hammer position. As a result. he sets this up in the beginning. And that is why you see the racquet face completely open to the net in the beginning.

This hitch can be added to anybody's swing though. In the trophy position, you turn your wrist inward, so that the racquet is closed. But it's important to note that this will also move the racquet way out more in front and to the right than they're used to.

Cheers Tricky for taking the time for that. I completely understand what you've pointed out (not always the case, I admit!) I look forward to working on this 'inward wrist' technique, whilst taking heed of your final cautious words regarding being moved to the right and out front. I could ask you a supplementary question or two...

"It's kinda similar to what Roddick what does with his full forehand, setting up the shape of the bottom of his backswing."
I don't 100 per cent understand this!... OF the bottom of his backswing?... should that be AT the bottom of his backswing?... or are you actually referring to the shape commencing RIGHT AT THE START when he begins drawing the racquet back with both hands?

However, I feel you've expended more than enough energy answering my queries with such thoroughness (you've probably completely had enough of my questions!)

Maybe someone else can answer this?

 

[tricky]

or are you actually referring to the shape commencing RIGHT AT THE START when he begins drawing the racquet back with both hands?

Yeah, that thing he does with the racquet on edge and over his head. When he lets it drop, the elbow and wrist-to-forearm angles he set up are pretty much preserved through the entire "backswing", until he "throws" the racquet forward. In that sense, once he's set up the shape (which does take long) with his two hands, his backswing for his FH is actually "abbreviated" in its own right. His serve takeback pretty much works the same way; he's already set up the shape of his hammer position at the very beginning, and so all he has to do is "swing" around the shoulder to go straight into it.

I look forward to working on this 'inward wrist' technique, whilst taking heed of your final cautious words regarding being moved to the right and out front. I could ask you a supplementary question or two...

Yeah, you'll pick what I mean if just isolate that part of your serve and do that hitch. It makes intuitive sense.

 

[thenjimmysaid]

Whatever feels good to you, but personally, it seems as if it takes every single muscle fiber in your body to do that whippy motion he does.

 

[EuroMagnum]

Thanks for all the replies.. I didn't read them all but they seem very informative! To be fair, the motion i've been using is only lossely based on Roddick -- my right foot starts beack and behind my left fott and a start with the racquet face slightly closed over the ball and leaning forward. Then, I toss the ball up and step my back foot into my front foot. I've gotta work on the takeback, Roddick seems to really pull his elbow back, and my timing is way off. I always hit the ball way too soon, like half a second after it leaves my hand.

On the same note, i've been seeing players my age doing a modified motion in which they start like most serves then they do a Roddick-esque back foot step-up, except when they do it they end up facing the net instead of diagonally, then they smash the ball down. Weird.

 

[Ross K]

Thanks for all the replies.. I didn't read them all but they seem very informative! To be fair, the motion i've been using is only lossely based on Roddick -- my right foot starts beack and behind my left fott and a start with the racquet face slightly closed over the ball and leaning forward. Then, I toss the ball up and step my back foot into my front foot. I've gotta work on the takeback, Roddick seems to really pull his elbow back, and my timing is way off. I always hit the ball way too soon, like half a second after it leaves my hand.

On the same note, i've been seeing players my age doing a modified motion in which they start like most serves then they do a Roddick-esque back foot step-up, except when they do it they end up facing the net instead of diagonally, then they smash the ball down. Weird.

I did the same thing myself (learnt elements of the ARod serve.) If you do get a chance to study this thread properly, and, providing you understand what everyone's going on about (I know I don't always!), you really can learn lots of additional and indeed priceless info - (like tricky's recent post's on ARods unique takeback of the racquet arm, which I think actually partially addresses your problem with hitting the ball too soon... and how high's the toss?) Anyway, all this info, which, of course, can also be found through on the internet, can be put directly into what you're doing.

And btw, last summer, at a kids tourny down in Devon, England, I also noticed many kids today using a partially abb. serve motion... hmmm...