Vantage, for Duece (and BLiND too)

[TommyGun]

Dear Duece,

One thing I find funny, is that in every single post here about the Prestige Classics, which I agree is one of the all time greatest frames (stupid of Head to discontinue it, as sales would probably be better then a lot of the other crap they make), no one, not even the Head guys here, say that anything else in the Head line is really close. Just read the threads here. iPrestige, no, LM Prestige, no, yada yada.

For me to suggest Vantage is actually more natural and makes more sense from a tennis perspective then suggesting one in the Head line or from another manufacturer. Here are the reasons:

1. You can get a Vantage frame with a Head shaped grip. Other then Head, you can't go anywhere else.

2. You can get a Vantage frame with a 90 square head. If you go with another brand, you get only one choice, and you have to live with the specs that they make them in (unless you are ranked or Donald Trump). I don't think a guy who loves Prestige Classics will want to play with a Wilson nCode, Yonex RDX or any other specific offering. With the Vantage you can get the head size and still tailor the other specs. (Gives you a shot at reproducing the Classic)

3. With the Vantage frames, you get no nonsense carbon, no "technology". Geee, what was the Prestige Classic?

4. With the Vantage you can tailor the length of the frame. I don't see you able to get a LM Prestige in other then the single length it comes in.

5. You can choose other options, to maybe give the frame from Vantage something you always wanted with the Prestige but couldn't get. Lets face it, if you can't get a Classic, then why not something close in feel and specs but with some personal touches?

I have two Vantages, and I haven't seen a frame with the quality, attention to detail and consistency in spec frame to frame since, well, I don't know when. Its not about mere "sales hype", I've got them and play with them. The custom specs I chose were to as closely as possible mimic two frames I played with when I was finishing my run in the satellites many years ago. I haven't ever found frames that matched mine, but these were close. In addition, I figured I would have to do some additional customization myself when I got them, but surprisingly, I don't. They play soo buttery for me (my opinion, not meant to infer my frames would play the same for someone else) that I'm not touching them (saves having to cut up the lead tape...yay!).

As for affiliations, no, I'm not with Vantage. I think I've posted my qualifications here on other posts. Long time player and high school and college coach. I have a degree in materials engineering and have done some work in the racquet industry as well as for other sporting goods manufacturers.

Duece, your opinions are valuable. But don't dismiss great reviews as hype. I will tell you that I don't know Guy Perez from a hole in the head, but I don't question his review. It was thorough, he described how he used them and what his basis of evaluation was, and I'm guessing he never had the opportunity to get "off the self custom" before.

The big guys in the industry just produce a crap load of models and frames, pay minimal attention to the actual playability of the frames, and they are now ruled not by building a great racquet but by building a great marketing campaign. Right now, Head is on a two years and out strategy with its frames, Wilson similar, Prince has introduced three new technologies in three years (the O series will definitely be short lived, if the stringing reviews and some other info from inside the industry I know are even half true) and all of them don't look at building the Holy Grail, just at how many can they sell quickly, then discontinue, retool and sell again. Go to your local sporting goods retailer. How many of the very current frames are there on their shelves? Oh, and have you seen Dunlop lately?

If you want to debate the merits of frames with me, feel free. But don't put down any racquet or review because it is great.

As for RacketDesign, well done. You make a truly exceptional frame. Its a shame (although good) that the big companies don't pay as much attention to their product as you do.

 

[kv581]

3. With the Vantage frames, you get no nonsense carbon, no "technology". Geee, what was the Prestige Classic?

Prestige Classic is made of graphite and twaron, which diehards swear gives the racquet a unique feel that goes beyond its flex, headsize, and string density. Twaron was certainly "technology" back in its day.

 

[TommyGun]

kv581,

You are correct, but overall, the Classic is really a basic frame, especially compared to more current offerings. The Pro Staff 6.0 St. Vincent's was considered "technology" in its day too, but I don't think we would think of it as such today.

 

[NoBadMojo]

I agree w. kv581.it was the Twaron in the layup of the Prestige Classic that made this frame unique. understand Twaron to be a form of Kevlar. There really hasn't ever been anything w. that feel ever as far as i know, and that is why the frame had such a following for such a long time. unless the Vantage frame has Twaron in there, i would suggest it really isnt very similar to the Prestige Classic..

 

[AndrewD]

TG,
I think a problem with the reviews, which may well have irked a few people, is that some tended to be so over the top they were a little hard to take seriously. While I have no doubts as to the quality of the frames when someone, in effect writes that 'this does everything better than anything else' people will tend to doubt, especially as they have no way of verifying for themselves. I would suggest that those reviews came in just a bit too early, before the chance was there for people to get the frames and decide for themselves or in unison with the reviewer. Possibly didnt help that in a particular instance people, naturally, asked questions of the reviewer and no answers were forthcoming (most were ignored).

Hopefully they do well and we get some more well-rounded reviews of their stock frames (not the made to measure ones). I had to say no to a generous offer from Paul as, at the end of the day, it was a bit too expensive for me but Im sure there'll be others who dont have the same hassle.

I guess though, if anyone does want to try out the brand -not just the customised ones- I did see one up for sale on ****.

 

[TommyGun]

I agree Mojo, that they aren't the same or similar, but what we are really trying to do here is reproduce as closely as possible the overall feel and playability of the Classic. Custom is your best shot, and thanks to Vantage at least you have a shot.

Here is what Twaron is (still available today), interesting is that it is really a by product from other aramid fiber cutting operations.

"Twaron is a lightweight, super strong synthetic fiber made from aramid polymer. Aramid molecules are characterized by relatively rigid polymer chains, linked by strong hydrogen bonds, which transfer mechanical stress back and forth, rather like a zipper. This permits the use of chains of relatively low molecular weight.

Twaron's unique characteristics derive from the ability of the aramid molecules to orient themselves along the line of flow during the spinning process producing the fiber, forming straight strands that resemble uncooked spaghetti. By comparison, the much weaker fibers made from polymers such as nylon and polyester resemble the tangled mass that cooked spaghetti becomes."

In some ways similar to kevlar, but not exactly. Twaron is often used in applications requiring flexibility.

 

[TommyGun]

Andrew, I agree that sometimes people here post and don't answer the questions back...something we all need to be sensitive to and better at.

I wanted to point out with my post that while I am a Vantage fan, that my viewpoint is not based on my "love" for the frames. I have marvelled at the Prestige Classic discussions here for months (seems like decades) and when I posted my thoughts, it was the most obvious thing, now that Paul offers his frames and service to the masses.

I often get a chuckle here, though, because people get soooo worked up when you say its "similar". For some, if it doesn't match perfectly in spec and materials, or 99% match, then they go off on how you are wrong or stupid. Shame. As I said, since the average Joe can't get 'em anymore, the whole idea is to try and reproduce the feel and experience of using the Classics as closely as possible. Again, custom is usually the only way to go.

For example, if you are willing to pay the price I know that Boz will make you a racquet with twaron in it, just has to be in his mold. So, you can get almost a Prestige, but with his octagonal head. The price, however, will be something that only the Donald can afford.

You saw a Vantage on ****? I'm heading there now...

 

[AndrewD]

Or you could be an unlucky sod like me and have a preference for the old 200G and the Prince Magnesium Pro. Now that's two frames I'll never find again LOL.

I weighed up the pros and cons and, for me, the two negatives were that presently I feel more comfortable with an oversize and secondly, when I go to midplus Id prefer something more flexible than the available 63RDA (Volkl I think it might be). Still, most dont have that preference although I personally think there is an absolute dearth of high quality flexible frames (although I did notice the Technibre 325 is under the 60 mark) and wonder why there is no longer a market for them.

 

[Deuce]

I'm seeing this thread for the first time now. Don't know why you (Tommy) began a new thread by simply copying a post you already posted in another thread.

I find it difficult enough to keep up with the threads I post in without having the added annoyance of finding additional threads which contain merely duplicate posts.

You've twice now removed yourself from the original threads in which our discussions were taking place - only to begin new threads to continue the same discussion we were having in the original threads. And you don't even leave a note for me in the original threads that you've begun a new thread on the subject we're discussing - I simply have to find it on my own. Are you hoping that I don't find them?

Not to mention that my searches for 'Deuce' do not yield any of your posts addressed to me, due to your regular misspelling of my username...

 

[Roforot]

Prestige Classic is made of graphite and twaron, which diehards swear gives the racquet a unique feel that goes beyond its flex, headsize, and string density. Twaron was certainly "technology" back in its day.

Maybe next year, Head will release a Twaron Prestige? or a Twaron radical?