What can Us Amateurs learn from this Doubles ?

[Nostradamus]

I have been playing doubles for a long time but nothing like this but seem like it is working well for these girls. This is the Highest level of doubles tennis in NCAA division 1 tennis, folks.
Even the amateur adult doubles league players will be scratching their heads on this one. What can we learn from this odd doubles ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xHm1Bko_2k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Relinquis]

what's odd about it?

 

[Nostradamus]

what's odd about it?

I can understand starting with 2 back on your Own serve. but then the server starts Serving and volleying and leaves the partner stranded on the baseline. and now you end up with 1 up and 1 back on the SAME side. This is exactly what you are taught not to do.:???:

 

[Nostradamus]

This USC team has Mastered the topspin lob like the GOAT. Half of their winners are topspin lobs, which is just insane.

 

[TennisCJC]

I learned that the team starting on the near side is not getting much out of advancing to the net which contradicts traditional thought. I think they are hitting weak approach shots allowing their opponents to hit low passing shots and offensive topspin lobs. They should work on placing their approach shots better with more depth first and then more pace as they improve. In short, they should win more points when they approach.

 

[Nostradamus]

I learned that the team starting on the near side is not getting much out of advancing to the net which contradicts traditional thought. I think they are hitting weak approach shots allowing their opponents to hit low passing shots and offensive topspin lobs. They should work on placing their approach shots better with more depth first and then more pace as they improve. In short, they should win more points when they approach.

so you think better approach shots would force easier volleys and overheads ? I do agree with this. what do you guys think?

 

[pvaudio]

It teaches me that I would absolutely love to play with the mountains in the background.

 

[LeeD]

Play to your strengths, try to mask your weaknesses.

 

[Nostradamus]

Play to your strengths, try to mask your weaknesses.

Couldn't agree more with this. Kaitlin is the only one on this court that can play both Net and from the baseline too.

 

[Doubles]

I was going to watch the video, but then I realized that it was girls doubles. Yawn.

 

[corbind]

Short USC girl must be a singles player as she hates the net. Typically I would say say for a team to win (at that level) in a 1 up 1 back formation, the back player must have exceptional baseline shots. She has some wonderful lobs and some that are sitters that get crushed at/by her partner.

I'll watch the entire thing tomorrow. You hear the sound off the racquet off some of this first serves? Good stuff.

 

[fuzz nation]

Sort of unfortunate doubles as I see it - these ladies are certainly good players, but I agree that they are playing too much like singles players instead of doubles teams. Lots of one up, one back and too much lobbing returns of serve... successfully.

 

[anchorage]

If you judge them by pretty high standards, there are quite a few things which stand out.

Quite a few times, the positioning wasn't correct.

But, for me, the stand out things were that the net players just didn't do enough to pressure the respective returners - far too passive.

I then lost count of the number of straightforward smashes which weren't put away. Every smash went straight back to the defensive team. On an easy paced court with that bounce, that won't get the job done. Just take something off it and angle the smash - easy winner. Same applies to volleys. So many times relatively high, shortish balls were just volleyed back to the baseline players when they should have been winners.

Couple of other things. The video shows the weakness of one up, one back since it gives the other team and easy way out when under pressure. However, I don't think the other side (sorry, don't know which is which) took real advantage of the fact that the one girl just stayed back. Particularly when that girl's partner was serving & moved in to volley - every return was still cross-court; that's just a bit too polite.

 

[tennis_ocd]

I think, and even at the highest levels, 1 up, 1 back is very common in women's doubles. They simply don't have the back movement and overheads as the men's game and become very vulnerable when both up.

 

[2ndServe]

I think in the men's doubles game the serve and net game is much more prevalent. An active net person coupled with a strong serve makes the return game difficult.

Now you can't compare women's doubles to men's doubles. It might as well be a different sport.

For women the weakest parts are the server, overheard and net game. Their strengths are the return game and ground game. They can also hold the shot much later with 2 hands. The result is you've got a relatively straight ball serve meeting great returns. The net person is neutralized not only by

1) their partners serve isn't that strong
2) the returners return is very strong
3) most prefer the baseline and aren't comfortable at the net
4) stature and backpedaling for overheards aren't a strong suit

In this regards it has to be better to play 1 up 1 back for womens doubles at this level. Now I've watched Stubbs and Matek play womens doubles and those 2 are probably better off 2 up but that's a rare case.

 

[NLBwell]

If you can't play the net, don't play at the net.

Play to your strengths.

 

[LeeD]

I wonder if short person cannot play net, or is respectful of the oppositions penchant for hitting low lobs, some with topspin. Lots of ladies doubles involve lobs that clear the netperson's racket, since they are soooo grooved on their groundstrokes, they CAN hit racket clearing lobs.
And clearing the reach of a short player is not too difficult, especially if her taller partner has a tendency to move forwards and NOT cover her partner's baseline.

 

[mightyrick]

If you can't play the net, don't play at the net.

Play to your strengths.

^ This.

One of the biggest mistakes I see doubles teams do is force a weak player to play up at the net instead of hanging at the baseline. Big mistake. They are going to get pegged every single time.

Best for a weak net player to stand back at the baseline to give them an opportunity to hit a groundstroke or possibly to have to run forward to grab a dropshot.

The biggest problem with two-back, though, is that it opens up the middle.

 

[Relinquis]

this video is of amateurs, right?

do WTAs play the same?

 

[LeeD]

Well, I'd expect 7.0 WTA players to hit stronger and more consistent shots, with many less mishits, better direction and placement, but not necessarily with more pace.
Say you pair a Cibulkova with a Stosur. Stosur likes net play, wants to volley. Dominika get's lobbed a lot, usually low racket clearning skimmers, so she relies on her groundies to force the action with hard shots that the backcourt player cannot effectively handle.
So yes, this scenario happens sometimes.
Maybe not with the Italians Vinci/Errani, who both want to volley.

 

[user92626]

I'm curious. If you removed their youthful strength and tenacity, what would you have left in this match?

Double faults - checked.
Lots of UEs and short points - checked.
Lots of familiar lobbs - checked.
Sliced FH - check.
...

 

[Nostradamus]

I'm curious. If you removed their youthful strength and tenacity, what would you have left in this match?

Double faults - checked.
Lots of UEs and short points - checked.
Lots of familiar lobbs - checked.
Sliced FH - check.
...

Remember this the very BEST of Division 1 college tennis. Caitlin Christian of USC is probable the best doubles player in NCAA D1 right now. IF you watch the WTA doubles, this really isn't that far off.

 

[LeeD]

PRESSURE...
We play differently when pressured, at least I do.
Since the player's obviously are 5.5 women, they would beat all of us, except for the 5.0 guys on here, which are just a handful.

 

[Nostradamus]

PRESSURE...
We play differently when pressured, at least I do.
Since the player's obviously are 5.5 women, they would beat all of us, except for the 5.0 guys on here, which are just a handful.

5.5 ? these girls have played in Challenger level of WTA tour. that is like 9.0 level.

 

[LeeD]

ah, NO....
They are good, not the best players of Div1 college, meaning 5.5.
A 4.5 can enter a Challenger tourney, a Q, or a Futures, if there's space availible.
After WINNING a Challenger, they might be close to 6.0. Making top 50 WTA gives them a 7.0 rating.
In ATP, possibly making top 400 gives them a 7.0 rating.

 

[Nostradamus]

ah, NO....
They are good, not the best players of Div1 college, meaning 5.5.
A 4.5 can enter a Challenger tourney, a Q, or a Futures, if there's space availible.
After WINNING a Challenger, they might be close to 6.0. Making top 50 WTA gives them a 7.0 rating.
In ATP, possibly making top 400 gives them a 7.0 rating.

5.5 so does that mean if I 4.5 player played them, I could beat them ?

 

[LeeD]

Good question.
If you are a groundstroker who relies on persistence and grinding, have few winners, and mostly hit moderate paced shots, probably not.
If you are a big hitter who can serve something special, hit some great volleys and better overheads, is athletic and can cover court, probably yes, in singles....if you play your best game. If you play your worse game, they will crush you by score.

 

[NLBwell]

Very best of college tennis is probably 6.0 - would be able to play the women's equivalent of Futures (ITF). After the first couple on the best teams, probably 5.5.

 

[user92626]

Remember this the very BEST of Division 1 college tennis. Caitlin Christian of USC is probable the best doubles player in NCAA D1 right now. IF you watch the WTA doubles, this really isn't that far off.

Again, let me ask you, just imagine this match is played without their youthful aggressiveness and speed, is it still as good as you think?

 

[WildVolley]

Don't play mixed doubles with short women because they have trouble covering the lob and need to play back.

 

[NLBwell]

Again, let me ask you, just imagine this match is played without their youthful aggressiveness and speed, is it still as good as you think?

When we get old and slow, our tennis gets worse.

 

[user92626]

When we get old and slow, our tennis gets worse.

True, but that's not my point. I watched Martin vs Agassi or some Michael C games and their games looked every bit good and professional.

 

[wrxinsc]

the shorter lady while a good player is not comfortable at the net and they, as a team, believe the opposition capable of beating them easily if two up with smooth top spin lobs (of which their opponents are consistently capable of). the tall drink of water girl likes closing net and being aggressive. a situational compromise kind of partnership. just my two cents / guess.

 

[5263]

This vid shows there are a lot of ways to win points in dubs and not
just crash net like so many players think is the only way.
These girls show a ton of variety, but their returns outshine their serves so
much, it really changes the game from what most of us know.

 

[LeeD]

Exactly, if you have no serve, don't go charging up to net position.
If you can move it around, bounce it upper shoulder high, you have more choices.
Everything depends on what your opponent's are capable of.

 

[Nostradamus]

This vid shows there are a lot of ways to win points in dubs and not
just crash net like so many players think is the only way.
These girls show a ton of variety, but their returns outshine their serves so
much, it really changes the game from what most of us know.

Agrreee. they have that topspin lob to an ART form. never seen so many ways that topspin lob could be hit.

 

[Nostradamus]

Exactly, if you have no serve, don't go charging up to net position.
If you can move it around, bounce it upper shoulder high, you have more choices.
Everything depends on what your opponent's are capable of.

No serve ? Ellen Tsay is pretty tall for a girl and have pretty good serve

 

[LeeD]

"pretty good" serve sets up a winner for your opponent.
Good serve, super good serve, superlative serve, advantage YOU.
Girls generally have better groundstrokes than their serves.